Big C Extra is becoming too dangerous to visit

[DaffyDuck]

But I have to say, your utter ignorance about how the various Thai power brokers really work is highly amusing.

I do find it amusing how you are utterly unaware what 'projecting' is.

Oh and the protestors weren't innocent, they broke the law by sabotaging elections and preventing their fellow citizens from running for office and from voting, a criminal offence.

... which in your world makes it perfectly okay to shoot and kill them, as long as some sort of election too place. Ok, got it.

[DaffyDuck]

"the grenade launchers" Poodle in the microwave, poodle in the microwave, call in the Army.

So, you are denying that grenades were used against innocent Thai citizens? You are denying that redshirt elements and leadership were behind those incidents?

I think you are in need of more red-tinged aerobic instructions ...

[rubl]

This thread is so full of BS and monstrous double-standards, it's not true.

I followed events very closely and what happened to cause the coup was pretty straightforward:

Pheu-Thai refused point blank to allow any political reform before a new election. They were 100% prepared to use every means in their power to prevent it. This slid into open terrorist attacks against innocent protestors of the WORST kind : grenades being firing randomly into crowds.

As things were getting more desperate, Prayuth got them all together (a deliberate act) and gave them a chance to back away from the killing. They refused and so he took control. They refused because they had no power to agree : that decision was taken from a luxury hotel room in Dubai long before the meeting.

The rest is all just a consequence of that decision. Once Prayuth had made the decision, he had no choice but to follow the current path, and to commit to it 100%.

I have no reason to prefer one side over another. I form my opinions by following the news over time and things become pretty clear if your glasses are not tinted red or yellow.

Nobody wants this Junta, but all you people whining about it are blaming the wrong people. Of course, there's nothing new there. I've met very few Thais who will accept the consequence of their actions : they always blame somebody else.

Interesting; so both parties are equally to blame, and because there was no enforcement of civil order there was a coup ? I thought this all came about because of a pardon for Thaksin Shinawatra.

Please do try to keep up. The whole reason for the civil disorder was because of the amnesty bill where not one single Pheu-Thai MP from 310 had the ethics to vote against this disgrace to all things decent..

Thaksin tried to break these protests using the terrorism and murder of innocent Thais rather than lose power - and with it his chance to force amnesty. The UDD were caught red-handed with the grenade launchers.

That's when the Army had to step in.

The amnesty bill was dead in the water, it became dead the minute Yingluck dissolved the lower house December 2013.

You guys are drifting off again. Also the blanket amnesty bill wasn't dead, it was dormant for 180 days after the Senate rejected it. One of the reasons Ms. Yingluck c.s. tried to push through the Feb2 elections was the hope to win and by a simple majority pass the blanket amnesty bill into law.

[John1thru10]

Oh, dear. He has to choose between his brother and his buddy. How stressful that must be. Maybe everyone should just back off and give the poor guy room to breathe.

And the military government is different from the government of Thaksin how exactly? .

Oh..I guess, little details; like people not being under endless martial law and having the right to vote, under one of them.

Amazing that you could finish writing the statement without that very obvious reality interfering.

[John1thru10]

"the grenade launchers" Poodle in the microwave, poodle in the microwave, call in the Army.

So, you are denying that grenades were used against innocent Thai citizens? You are denying that redshirt elements and leadership were behind those incidents?

I think you are in need of more red-tinged aerobic instructions ...

I think you need to clarify yourself a little, if you want to be understood. No sark intended there. What's coming through mostly is an insulting tone, and I thought you were saying something completely different at first, for that reason.

Edited January 4, 2015 by John1thru10

[heybruce]

So martial law is for the benefit of the military not the country ?

" Unexpected problems that may arise " can cover simply anything that's not approved of.

If the PM is under too much pressure it's self inflicted injury as he didn't seek the role and the pressure, he took it.

I wish he had not taken the role on, would have been much better if he stepped back and let the entire population, including the north-eastern people, turn on the Shins.

It was beginning to happen and would have been much more fun to watch.

(I truly believe the main reason the coup happened was because of the redshirts killing innocent people on the streets)

"would have been much better if he stepped back and let the entire population, including the north-eastern people, turn on the Shins.'

I have been posting since shortly after the coup that a July election, when Yingluck and the PTP were at a low point in popularity, would have been an excellent opportunity to reduce or remove the Shinawatra political influence democratically. Starry eyed Prayuth fans, who regarded him as the savior of Thailand, objected to the idea.

Weren't you (Aren't you?) one of those starry eyed Prayuth fans?

heybruce, you are at least as misguided as your mad uncle jayboy. Calling me a starry eyed Prayuth fan who regarded him the savior of Thailand really shows how out of touch you are.

But if flaming me makes you feel better go ahead, they are only words, and nobody takes much notice anyway. . And remind uncle to take his nasty pills will ya ?

Well let's see, you once had so much faith in the junta you called me misguided for questioning very questionable polls praising the coup http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/738417-prayuth-tops-peoples-choice-as-next-pm/page-9?hl=%20prayuth.

You referred to the coup leader as "the good General" http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761947-poll-reveals-prayuth-government-should-stay-over-a-year-for-sake-of-peace/page-3?hl=%2Bprayuth#entry8421508.

You clearly approved of the job he was doing http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753761-new-thai-pm-business-lobbies-hail-rise-of-prayuth/?hl=+prayuth.

You ridiculed people who objected to the coup http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/728548-international-alarm-mounts-over-thai-coup/page-25?hl=+prayuth.

And you clearly think anything is better than an elected government in which Shinawatra affiliated parties kept winning http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/752773-prayuth-to-be-voted-pm-on-21-august-legislators-say/page-2?hl=%20prayuth.

I think my description of you was reasonable.

[heybruce]

Please do try to keep up. The whole reason for the civil disorder was because of the amnesty bill where not one single Pheu-Thai MP from 310 had the ethics to vote against this disgrace to all things decent..

Thaksin tried to break these protests using the terrorism and murder of innocent Thais rather than lose power - and with it his chance to force amnesty. The UDD were caught red-handed with the grenade launchers.

That's when the Army had to step in.

The amnesty bill was dead in the water, it became dead the minute Yingluck dissolved the lower house December 2013.

You guys are drifting off again. Also the blanket amnesty bill wasn't dead, it was dormant for 180 days after the Senate rejected it. One of the reasons Ms. Yingluck c.s. tried to push through the Feb2 elections was the hope to win and by a simple majority pass the blanket amnesty bill into law.

Yingluck called an election when she and her party were reaching new lows in popularity in order to win a simple majority? Do you really think she was that politically ignorant?

Regardless of why she called an election, it was an opportunity to let the voters in Thailand pass judgment on her performance in office, including the amnesty attempt. It was a democratic way out of the crisis, and the people who obstructed the elections and applauded the coup clearly are not democrats.

[Dah fahrang]

Don't be surprise if Thailand does not become a military state. Or maybe it has already.

Follwing Egypt - step by dangerous step.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Dah fahrang

[halloween]

Yingluck called an election when she and her party were reaching new lows in popularity in order to win a simple majority? Do you really think she was that politically ignorant?

Regardless of why she called an election, it was an opportunity to let the voters in Thailand pass judgment on her performance in office, including the amnesty attempt. It was a democratic way out of the crisis, and the people who obstructed the elections and applauded the coup clearly are not democrats.

Do you really think she was that politically astute, after the amnesty debacle? Perhaps, if you allow that it was never her decision to make.

[John1thru10]

What are currently being enfored, it seems to me, are 'emotional' ideals, like anger and xenophobia. And I believe that those things have been trumpeted in this latest coup, as a subsitute for definable lines. And that is dangerous owing to how quickly it can devolve, without the normal checks and balances: like free media, and others feeling freedom to express themselves.

This is anecdotal now, but yesterday a small group of us had been looking for a western union over several days, while the banks had been closed. And someone learned that there was one open, in a small shopping center, nearby. It had nothing to do with having an account, or anything like that; it was Western Union window. Great, the small group of us shared a taxi and went together. When we arrived - different from the normal system Western Union relies on, of showing proper ID, and a control number - the tellers at this particular branch, had appointed themselves as immigration officials, and were demanding to examine each of our status' before letting us use Western Union. They were a little hostile, in fact, and the experience was strangely paranoid. At one point when I slightly resisted, pointing out that it normally wasn't necessary, the telling motioned to the security guard, who then came to stand over me as I might try to run or something. That was strange, as I hadn't raised my voice, or done anything impolite; I'd only paused a moment, because it's not was Western Union usually asks for. Western Union demands that one show ID and a control number. But here, at this random branch, the rules were different, and now we had to talk about our visas.

I deal with immigration at immigration: NOT randomly on the street somewhere, or when going to the gocery store. Not to mention vaguely uniformed women in front of the mall before that, randomly stopping people and asking personal questions. I'm sure some will say that it's 'great' to see Thaiand becoming so paranoid that way. But, I don't think so. And, no I'm not a criminal. But, martial law seems to be resulting in 'no lines', instead of stronger one.

Edited January 4, 2015 by John1thru10

[heybruce]

You guys are missing what is really going on. There will be a seismic power shift occurring in

a few years in Thailand. Thus the military wants to be sure they are in the proper spot so as

to not get shut out. The old cycle was the piggies getting too greedy at the feeding trough, a coup

to throw out the piggies for around a year, then vote buying elections, and then fresh piggies at the

trough. The military learned its lesson from the coup of 2006, when after the coup was over a

Thaksin surrogate was right back in the driver's seat. So that will not be happening again..

The military will be running the government for years to come. Hence the constant evasion

when he is asked about elections. When Prayut first took power, I was pretty impressed with

his seeming crackdown on corruption. Only realized later that what appeared to be a crackdown

was really a purge of specific people with the wrong connections. The other corrupted people

are still in power, and still have mansions with Ferraris in the garage........ Pongpat with his

60 billion baht of money stolen from the Thai people was just a tiny peek behind the curtain

of what is really going on in this country.

"You guys are missing what is really going on. There will be a seismic power shift occurring in

a few years in Thailand. Thus the military wants to be sure they are in the proper spot so as

to not get shut out."

Correct, the western press is finally figuring what many in Thailand knew from the start. I'd post a few links, but they would result in the post being deleted.

"Only realized later that what appeared to be a crackdown

was really a purge of specific people with the wrong connections."

Really? You didn't see that right away?

The western press is not "finally figuring what many in Thailand knew from the start". The Economist magazine figured it out within about a week of the coup. Needless to say the article was rapidly blocked.

Most Thais know what the coup was about; they just daren't talk about it. That is the ultimate folly; a ruling elite that is not willing or confident enough to prepare its own people for the biggest change of their lifetime.

I agree with the second part of you post, but I feel compelled to defend my original statement regarding the myopic western press.

I've been a regular reader of the Economist for some time and think highly of the publication. However, while their May 24 issue suggested that the subject that can not be mentioned was a factor in the coup, the publication was discreet and uncertain on the matter for several months after that. A Banyan blog on June 6 stated that the army was unlikely to relinquish control until after the big event, but an article on September 13, "Uniform Reaction" indicated that a swift return to democracy was likely. I don't think the Economist was clear on the subject until their December 6 article, "Delaying the day of reckoning". In spite of this, they were still a better source of information on the matter than any other major western publication that I am aware of.

For obvious reasons I have not provided links to any of these articles, Another article I will not provide a link to is one published by Forbes on December 22 titled "Thailand's Military Junta Destroys Democracy, Enjoys Exercising Power: Generals Postpone Elections Before Rigging Them". It can easily be found on-line. There isn't anything new for informed people following events, but I think it's a good summary of where Thailand is currently at.

[tbthailand]

Thaksin tried to break these protests using the terrorism and murder of innocent Thais rather than lose power - and with it his chance to force amnesty. The UDD were caught red-handed with the grenade launchers

Isn't it funny how, consistently, tbthailand, stuttering parrot, sjaak, et al are completely ignoring when these points are raised? When the additional point is raised that the CURRENT army government hasn't applied any violence or done any killing, they consistently bleat "oh, but in 2010, and before...!" - while hoping no one notices that these times were both under a different regime, AND that most of these incidents were provoked by the same RedShirts that these tools so fervently defend.

I don't see anyone burning now Central World down, or throwing grenades into crowds - it almost makes you think that tbthailand, stuttering parrot, sjaak, et al are in favor of such violence and killings, since they want the country to return to such a configuration.

quack, quack,...

there you go accusing posters of holding fictitious positions which you will later ask them to defend.

quack quack

[tbthailand]

You guys are missing what is really going on. There will be a seismic power shift occurring in

a few years in Thailand. Thus the military wants to be sure they are in the proper spot so as

to not get shut out. The old cycle was the piggies getting too greedy at the feeding trough, a coup

to throw out the piggies for around a year, then vote buying elections, and then fresh piggies at the

trough. The military learned its lesson from the coup of 2006, when after the coup was over a

Thaksin surrogate was right back in the driver's seat. So that will not be happening again..

The military will be running the government for years to come. Hence the constant evasion

when he is asked about elections. When Prayut first took power, I was pretty impressed with

his seeming crackdown on corruption. Only realized later that what appeared to be a crackdown

was really a purge of specific people with the wrong connections. The other corrupted people

are still in power, and still have mansions with Ferraris in the garage........ Pongpat with his

60 billion baht of money stolen from the Thai people was just a tiny peek behind the curtain

of what is really going on in this country.

"You guys are missing what is really going on. There will be a seismic power shift occurring in

a few years in Thailand. Thus the military wants to be sure they are in the proper spot so as

to not get shut out."

Correct, the western press is finally figuring what many in Thailand knew from the start. I'd post a few links, but they would result in the post being deleted.

"Only realized later that what appeared to be a crackdown

was really a purge of specific people with the wrong connections."

Really? You didn't see that right away?

The western press is not "finally figuring what many in Thailand knew from the start". The Economist magazine figured it out within about a week of the coup. Needless to say the article was rapidly blocked.

Most Thais know what the coup was about; they just daren't talk about it. That is the ultimate folly; a ruling elite that is not willing or confident enough to prepare its own people for the biggest change of their lifetime.

I agree with the second part of you post, but I feel compelled to defend my original statement regarding the myopic western press.

I've been a regular reader of the Economist for some time and think highly of the publication. However, while their May 24 issue suggested that the subject that can not be mentioned was a factor in the coup, the publication was discreet and uncertain on the matter for several months after that. A Banyan blog on June 6 stated that the army was unlikely to relinquish control until after the big event, but an article on September 13, "Uniform Reaction" indicated that a swift return to democracy was likely. I don't think the Economist was clear on the subject until their December 6 article, "Delaying the day of reckoning". In spite of this, they were still a better source of information on the matter than any other major western publication that I am aware of.

For obvious reasons I have not provided links to any of these articles, Another article I will not provide a link to is one published by Forbes on December 22 titled "Thailand's Military Junta Destroys Democracy, Enjoys Exercising Power: Generals Postpone Elections Before Rigging Them". It can easily be found on-line. There isn't anything new for informed people following events, but I think it's a good summary of where Thailand is currently at.

agree about the economist

the forbes article is interesting, but I found the last paragraph almost like cheerleading the junta to jump-start the economy so that they could justify the coup.

2 completely unrelated topics.

[lildragon]

What are currently being enfored, it seems to me, are 'emotional' ideals, like anger and xenophobia. And I believe that those things have been trumpeted in this latest coup, as a subsitute for definable lines. And that is dangerous owing to how quickly it can devolve, without the normal checks and balances: like free media, and others feeling freedom to express themselves.

This is anecdotal now, but yesterday a small group of us had been looking for a western union over several days, while the banks had been closed. And someone learned that there was one open, in a small shopping center, nearby. It had nothing to do with having an account, or anything like that; it was Western Union window. Great, the small group of us shared a taxi and went together. When we arrived - different from the normal system Western Union relies on, of showing proper ID, and a control number - the tellers at this particular branch, had appointed themselves as immigration officials, and were demanding to examine each of our status' before letting us use Western Union. They were a little hostile, in fact, and the experience was strangely paranoid. At one point when I slightly resisted, pointing out that it normally wasn't necessary, the telling motioned to the security guard, who then came to stand over me as I might try to run or something. That was strange, as I hadn't raised my voice, or done anything impolite; I'd only paused a moment, because it's not was Western Union usually asks for. Western Union demands that one show ID and a control number. But here, at this random branch, the rules were different, and now we had to talk about our visas.

I deal with immigration at immigration: NOT randomly on the street somewhere, or when going to the gocery store. Not to mention vaguely uniformed women in front of the mall before that, randomly stopping people and asking personal questions. I'm sure some will say that it's 'great' to see Thaiand becoming so paranoid that way. But, I don't think so. And, no I'm not a criminal. But, martial law seems to be resulting in 'no lines', instead of stronger one.

I have lived under dem and shin governments. I always had fine experiences with immigration under civilian governments. When I went to report post coup it was horrible. I was treated like scum on their shoe. It's was ones of the worst days I've had in Thailand. I agree With you that it has changed post coup. For the worse If you're a foreigner. And in terms of freedom of speech And critical thinking If you're Thai. Edited January 4, 2015 by lildragon

[brucec64]

I've watched every one of Dear Leader's Friday spiels. There's nothing in the world like them. Last night was his shortest yet, 30 minutes. and the major topic, bike lanes. But consider his dilemma, he had no photo-ops to show us and can't bring up the subject of the tanking economy. What next week? 20 minutes of garlic chicken recipes?

The Thaitanic sails on.

Can't bring up the subject of the tanking economy? What!!! He could talk for hours on the economy.

The SET couldn't be stronger under the Junta? Look at the graph here. Look at Thailand inflation rate here. That is going in the right direction as well. Look at the GDP growth rate here. Thats looking pretty good as well heay. Consumer confidence has gone through the roof here. Couple that with consumer spending here that is looking very health. Business confidence is plodding along nicely here.

In fact take a look at all the graphs and they are similar to any countries that was healing after being crippled by a rotten entity.

Unlike the majority on here that are retired I actually work and have a Thai crew. Pre coup we were working for an Aussie mine in Laos because the work was drying up in Thailand due to the instability. We are currently in Sudan after a small break back home over xmas because of the rippling effect of this pre coup instability, but mark my words since the 22nd of May and the slow recovery after the UDD and PTP backed violence has stopped the work is mounting up back home. My crew are itching to come home to work now. My crew vote as well. My crew love stability ergo they respect what the Junta are achieving. My crew reflect what the majority are echoing.

And all the economic indicators back up what my Thai crew reflect as well. It is this narrative the Junta cannot control that hold them in a good light.

Cheers from my crew!

You have facts, but analysis is clearly lacking and you have ignored context.

GDP is about 1%, but should have been 4%. GDP has already been downgraded for next year.

This article sums it up:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/02/opinion/thailand-and-the-coup-trap.html

GDP is at 1% instead of 4%:

And it’s the difference between the Thai economy, Southeast Asia’s second-biggest, stagnating, as it is now, or its chugging along at 4 percent, its average growth rate since 2001.

The coup has had a negative impact on the economy:

Rather than achieve what the official propaganda claims — order, stability, growth — the return to old-fashioned autocracy threatens to bring economic near-stagnation and will likely increase income inequality.

And the total economic cost of the coup to date:

Fifteen billion dollars. That’s roughly the price tag of the coup d’état to date.

This is roughly 460 billion baht. Coupled with the projected loss in 2015, the cost of the coup will far exceed the rice subsidy cost.

[rubl]

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

I think Gen. Prayut was more of a leader than Ms. Yingluck who only begin of May, 2011 petitioned the Pheu Thai executives to let her help as she felt the urge (to help the Nation that is). Her brother agreed, allegedly.

Anyway, Martial Law seems uninteresting. Pity it's part of the topic, isn't it?

[whybother]

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

Getting the most votes doesn't mean you're qualified.

[John1thru10]

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

Getting the most votes doesn't mean you're qualified.

That's for the voters to decide, however.

[soalbundy]

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

Getting the most votes doesn't mean you're qualified.

It does in a democracy,but we are talking about Thailand here where the fat cats always control no matter who is voted in. Come to think of it it's like that everywhere in the world but else where it is better disguised.

[sjaak327]

But I have to say, your utter ignorance about how the various Thai power brokers really work is highly amusing.

I do find it amusing how you are utterly unaware what 'projecting' is.

Oh and the protestors weren't innocent, they broke the law by sabotaging elections and preventing their fellow citizens from running for office and from voting, a criminal offence.

... which in your world makes it perfectly okay to shoot and kill them, as long as some sort of election too place. Ok, got it.

Nowhere did I say they should be shot, in fact neither the army nor the police did anything to stop them breaking the law.

That they broke the law is pretty clear, hence no innocent protestors, which is what I claimed.

[tbthailand]

Yingluck called an election when she and her party were reaching new lows in popularity in order to win a simple majority? Do you really think she was that politically ignorant?

You're right - can you refresh my memory as to her political experience and qualifications, in terms of politics and the position of PM? I seem to have forgotten those.

she worked in an office and did some part time modelling. That's qualified enough for here.

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

he is a career man working his way to the top of an incredibly corrupt organization which has been 'governing' publicly (as today) or from the shadows for 80 years.

Edited January 4, 2015 by tbthailand

[sjaak327]

The amnesty bill was dead in the water, it became dead the minute Yingluck dissolved the lower house December 2013.

You guys are drifting off again. Also the blanket amnesty bill wasn't dead, it was dormant for 180 days after the Senate rejected it. One of the reasons Ms. Yingluck c.s. tried to push through the Feb2 elections was the hope to win and by a simple majority pass the blanket amnesty bill into law.

No we are not rubl. The amnesty bill WAS dead in the water. The lower house was dissolved, and the only way to vote on it again was for Yingluck to win the elections again. Hence receiving yet another mandate. That would at the very least indicate the Thai electorate would have agreed with this bill.

The claim that the army stepped in due to the amnesty bill is incorrect. At the time of the coup, there still wasn't a house of representatives, so no possible way to re-introduce the bill. At the end, an amnesty clause was drafted, one that applies to the current Junta.

[rubl]

The amnesty bill was dead in the water, it became dead the minute Yingluck dissolved the lower house December 2013.

You guys are drifting off again. Also the blanket amnesty bill wasn't dead, it was dormant for 180 days after the Senate rejected it. One of the reasons Ms. Yingluck c.s. tried to push through the Feb2 elections was the hope to win and by a simple majority pass the blanket amnesty bill into law.

No we are not rubl. The amnesty bill WAS dead in the water. The lower house was dissolved, and the only way to vote on it again was for Yingluck to win the elections again. Hence receiving yet another mandate. That would at the very least indicate the Thai electorate would have agreed with this bill.

The claim that the army stepped in due to the amnesty bill is incorrect. At the time of the coup, there still wasn't a house of representatives, so no possible way to re-introduce the bill. At the end, an amnesty clause was drafted, one that applies to the current Junta.

As I've tried in vain to explain to HeyBruce, tbthailand and a few others, and now probably in vain to you, the "blanket amnesty bill" was not dead, nor dropped. Legally the "blanket amnesty bill" was put on hold, dormant for 180 days after which a government could take it up and let it pass in a simple majority in parliament.

As for the Thai electorate and Yingluck picking up the not-so-dead bill, you might have liked that although that's like approving of Hitler asking the electorate to vote for him so he could make sure they didn't need to vote again. They did, around 1933 I think, also very democratic.

Now the "Blanket Amnesty Bill" including a.o. "politically influenced corruption" covered 2004 to 2012-08-09. The Yingluck Administration thought it needed that. The bill and the very undemocratic attitude of the Yingluck Government, the direct involvement of that criminal fugitive, the gigantic losses incurred which the tax payer needs to cover. Now that's more going in the direction why we had a coup. Of course the 'unknowns' who cowardly shot at anti-government protesters in the night, lobbed more than 100 grenades on anti-government protesters, they also helped to set the stage.

It would seem if Thai have the distorted views you and others present here there is a clear reason why the Martial Law can't be lifted yet.

BTW I never claimed the army staged a coup because of the Blanket Amnesty Bill which suddenly covered Thaksin's last two years in and out of office and even the Yingluck Governments first year. Not me, so don't bring up against me what I never said.

Edited January 4, 2015 by rubl

[sjaak327]

The amnesty bill was dead in the water, it became dead the minute Yingluck dissolved the lower house December 2013.

You guys are drifting off again. Also the blanket amnesty bill wasn't dead, it was dormant for 180 days after the Senate rejected it. One of the reasons Ms. Yingluck c.s. tried to push through the Feb2 elections was the hope to win and by a simple majority pass the blanket amnesty bill into law.

No we are not rubl. The amnesty bill WAS dead in the water. The lower house was dissolved, and the only way to vote on it again was for Yingluck to win the elections again. Hence receiving yet another mandate. That would at the very least indicate the Thai electorate would have agreed with this bill.

The claim that the army stepped in due to the amnesty bill is incorrect. At the time of the coup, there still wasn't a house of representatives, so no possible way to re-introduce the bill. At the end, an amnesty clause was drafted, one that applies to the current Junta.

As I've tried in vain to explain to HeyBruce, tbthailand and a few others, and now probably in vain to you, the "blanket amnesty bill" was not dead, nor dropped. Legally the "blanket amnesty bill" was put on hold, dormant for 180 days after which a government could take it up and let it pass in a simple majority in parliament.

As for the Thai electorate and Yingluck picking up the not-so-dead bill, you might have liked that although that's like approving of Hitler asking the electorate to vote for him so he could make sure they didn't need to vote again. They did, around 1933 I think, also very democratic.

Now the "Blanket Amnesty Bill" including a.o. "politically influenced corruption" covered 2004 to 2012-08-09. The Yingluck Administration thought it needed that. The bill and the very undemocratic attitude of the Yingluck Government, the direct involvement of that criminal fugitive, the gigantic losses incurred which the tax payer needs to cover. Now that's more going in the direction why we had a coup. Of course the 'unknowns' who cowardly shot at anti-government protesters in the night, lobbed more than 100 grenades on anti-government protesters, they also helped to set the stage.

It would seem if Thai have the distorted views you and others present here there is a clear reason why the Martial Law can't be lifted yet.

BTW I never claimed the army staged a coup because of the Blanket Amnesty Bill which suddenly covered Thaksin's last two years in and out of office and even the Yingluck Governments first year. Not me, so don't bring up against me what I never said.

Please, how could the government possibly pass it with a simple majority in parliament when that parliament has been dissolved ?

Are you trying to defy logic ?

The only way that law would have passed is Yingluck receiving yet another mandate, there is no way around it. I don't think that amnesty bill justifies mentioning Hitler, so leave that shit out of the discussion.

And Rubl, I didn't claim YOU used it as a reason, but the initial poster did. Unfortunately, I reached the maximum number of quotes, so had to leave that out.

What remains is an amnesty bill that targets past and future transgressions by the Junta, I am surprised you don't take issue with this. But I guess, they are your friends, so it's allright.

By the way, the OP seems to indicate Martial Law is needed for a whole different reason than people having "distorted views". Maybe instead of making such outrageous claims focus on the reason for Martial Law according to the OP.

Edited January 4, 2015 by sjaak327

[heybruce]

Anyway, in 2007 the Military lifted the Martial Law in the provinces it still was valid in and that before the start of the Election Period of 45 to 60 days. Had something to do with people stating voters might feel intimidated with military around. Obviously that's why the Yingluck government in it's not-so-caretaking role asked the help of the Military to do the elections. Strange that, isn't it?

In 2014 the protesters were more intimidating than the military, and having the military make it clear that they supported elections would have taken all the steam out of the protests.

How much assistance did the military offer in ensuring safe, peaceful elections?

[heybruce]

You guys are drifting off again. Also the blanket amnesty bill wasn't dead, it was dormant for 180 days after the Senate rejected it. One of the reasons Ms. Yingluck c.s. tried to push through the Feb2 elections was the hope to win and by a simple majority pass the blanket amnesty bill into law.

Yingluck called an election when she and her party were reaching new lows in popularity in order to win a simple majority? Do you really think she was that politically ignorant?

Regardless of why she called an election, it was an opportunity to let the voters in Thailand pass judgment on her performance in office, including the amnesty attempt. It was a democratic way out of the crisis, and the people who obstructed the elections and applauded the coup clearly are not democrats.

And to ensure all would go as planned the Yingluck Government even wanted the Army to help with the elections, post at stations. The (unclear status) MoFA even suggested the Army declare Martial Law to ensure elections. Imagine!

In 2007 the Army even lifted the Martial Law as was still valid in a few provinces listening to various rights organisations which deemed voting under Martial Law undemocratic.

And did the Army assist with the elections?

[heybruce]

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

I think Gen. Prayut was more of a leader than Ms. Yingluck who only begin of May, 2011 petitioned the Pheu Thai executives to let her help as she felt the urge (to help the Nation that is). Her brother agreed, allegedly.

Anyway, Martial Law seems uninteresting. Pity it's part of the topic, isn't it?

Good point; why does this qualified General/PM need martial law to stay in office?

[heybruce]

You're right - can you refresh my memory as to her political experience and qualifications, in terms of politics and the position of PM? I seem to have forgotten those.

she worked in an office and did some part time modelling. That's qualified enough for here.

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

Consistent with your group and Ilk, you avoid giving an answer, if giving such an answer honestly would prove to be too uncomfortable for you. As usual.

Back to you - what are Yingluk's qualifications and experience, aside from the obvious one (being related to Thaksin by blood - which hardly qualifies as qualification).

If you feel Prayuth has no qualifications, then why are you OK with Yingluk having none? At least Prayuth was Army chief and has led a career spanning decades, which included dealing with every single government that preceded his intervention.

What experience has Yingluk had?

Consistent with your ilk, you deleted the part of my reply in which I questioned Prayuth's qualifications. Oh, and the Orwellian use of "intervention" instead of coup.

As I stated before, it is up to the voters to decide who is qualified to be Prime Minister. If the general is so well qualified why didn't he resign from the military and campaign for the office? If he is so good at his job why does he need to maintain martial law to feel secure?

[heybruce]

The party she led had the most votes in the 2011 election. If that isn't qualification enough for you then you clearly are not democrats.

By the way, what are Prayuth's qualifications for the position of PM?

Getting the most votes doesn't mean you're qualified.

Staging a coup doesn't mean he's qualified, and it raises serious doubts about his qualifications to bring about "real democracy".

[heybruce]

"You guys are missing what is really going on. There will be a seismic power shift occurring in

a few years in Thailand. Thus the military wants to be sure they are in the proper spot so as

to not get shut out."

Correct, the western press is finally figuring what many in Thailand knew from the start. I'd post a few links, but they would result in the post being deleted.

"Only realized later that what appeared to be a crackdown

was really a purge of specific people with the wrong connections."

Really? You didn't see that right away?

The western press is not "finally figuring what many in Thailand knew from the start". The Economist magazine figured it out within about a week of the coup. Needless to say the article was rapidly blocked.

Most Thais know what the coup was about; they just daren't talk about it. That is the ultimate folly; a ruling elite that is not willing or confident enough to prepare its own people for the biggest change of their lifetime.

I agree with the second part of you post, but I feel compelled to defend my original statement regarding the myopic western press.

I've been a regular reader of the Economist for some time and think highly of the publication. However, while their May 24 issue suggested that the subject that can not be mentioned was a factor in the coup, the publication was discreet and uncertain on the matter for several months after that. A Banyan blog on June 6 stated that the army was unlikely to relinquish control until after the big event, but an article on September 13, "Uniform Reaction" indicated that a swift return to democracy was likely. I don't think the Economist was clear on the subject until their December 6 article, "Delaying the day of reckoning". In spite of this, they were still a better source of information on the matter than any other major western publication that I am aware of.

For obvious reasons I have not provided links to any of these articles, Another article I will not provide a link to is one published by Forbes on December 22 titled "Thailand's Military Junta Destroys Democracy, Enjoys Exercising Power: Generals Postpone Elections Before Rigging Them". It can easily be found on-line. There isn't anything new for informed people following events, but I think it's a good summary of where Thailand is currently at.

agree about the economist

the forbes article is interesting, but I found the last paragraph almost like cheerleading the junta to jump-start the economy so that they could justify the coup.

2 completely unrelated topics.

Forbes is a business oriented publication, you have to expect that. That's why it tends to be less emotional and more factual in its reporting. I don't think we need to worry about the junta recognizing and implementing good advice regarding Thailand's economy, I expect it will be economic mismanagement that eventually topples the junta.