French man found dead in Koh Tao – incident being treated as suicide not homicide

[davo2003]

Toxicology is very important. If he was on any antidepressants and mixed with too much alcohol, suicide becomes relatively easy to commit.

[sambum]

Before we start to develop our own conclusions based on how much drink we had or how much we like or dislike Thai government agencies I would suggest to read a book edited by Michael Tsokos MD who is I quote “Professor Michael Tsokos is the Director of the Institute of Forensic Sciences and Legal Medicine, Charite – Universitatsmedizin Berlin, in Berlin, Germany.

He is also the Director of the Governmental Institute of Forensic and Social Medicine in Berlin, Germany. He is the primary or senior author of more than 200 scientific publications in international peer-reviewed journals and the author as well as editor of a number of books dealing with topics of forensic pathology.

I wonder what he would have to say about it when reading the comments made by the armchair police officers here on this forum or the hobby pathologists.

Michael Tsokos was here after the Tsunami hit Thailand working side by side with international teams and Thai pathologists to identify the victims. No criticism from his end but only praise for their abilities.

The book contains contributions from pathologists from around the world and even Asia, which might shock the TV commentators. Reading these publications one might find that stranger things have happened as someone tying his hands and placing his head through noose to commit suicide. But that wouldn’t go down to well on this forum, would it?

Instead of that one prefers to insult the RTP and declare Thai pathologists incompetent. I find that pathetic.

I (and probably all of the TV posters) am not doubting the qualifications of Dr Tsokos, or his assessment of the work carried out by the Thai pathologists after the Tsunami. However, there was probably not much doubt as to the cause of death in the majority of the Tsunami victims, suicide certainly not being one of them. In this particular case, most people doubt that it was suicide because of the victim's hands tied behind his back, and also the cuts present on the body. Most posters would probably agree that It would be POSSIBLE for the victim to have inflicted the cuts on himself, tied his hands behind his back, put his head through a noose and hung himself, but is it PROBABLE? Especially bearing in mind that he had been drinking for more than 12 hours previously, and the possibility of a drunk man being capable of the "step through" technique described in previous posts seems unlikely. Add to that, the botched up RTP investigations into the murders of the 2 English backpackers, the contamination of the crime scene, the contradictory statements put out by very high ranking police officers, dubious DNA findings/results, and numerous substantiated reports of corruption in the highest ranks of the RTP, is it any wonder that people are a bit cynical about any findings?

It doesn't matter if pobably all of the TV posters and you not doubting the qualifications of the German pathologist. What matters is that Thai pathologists not only are capable of handling the identifications of victims of the Tsunami as you imply but that the job of a pathologists is to determine the circumstances of any person that has come to die under circumstances that are suspect. That is exactly what happened in this case and now it seems that the people without qualifications in pathology seem to be better qualified to do the job.

Not at all! I am not doubting your pathologists' qualifications - I am suggesting that their findings might possibly be swayed by extraneous factors (i.e. money, threats etc) or are you of the firm opinion that all your pathologists are squeaky clean and would not allow themselves to be compromised in such a fashion?( a conspiracy theory for a certain group of posters to get their teeth into - I'm sure you'll be in agreement with most of their posts) And I notice that you make no mention of the role played by the RTP in your reply - I presume that is because you are "perfectly" satisfied that their investigation into the suicide, sorry suspicious death, sorry suicide was "perfectly" conducted, and once again we have a "perfect" case (eventually)? And no, I am not a "Thai basher" - I have lived here for quite a few years and met some wonderful Thais, and fortunately not met any "bad" ones.( I have met literally two disagreeable ones, one was my landlord, and the other one worked for a "Government agency") However, that does not mean to say that I am blind to the fact that they are out there somewhere, and a few of them seem to be on, or associated with Koh Tao.

[sambum]

Wow, I've been done in, I can't write software, I surrender to a much superior intellect. Hell I'm doing good to get past that damned "sign up for breaking news" piece of crap that pops up every time I go to sign in. I don't leave cookies on my computer, thank you very much. You are Thai, well I couldn't tell, I just thought another one of those that will defend anything Thai, you know kind of like the "luv it or leave it" right wingers in the US defending anything christian and "mericun". Fortunately, I'm one of the nice guys. If you think I'm rude you need to visit Texass and meet a few cops there. I rode with a good friend when I would go back to visit mom and dad many years ago, couldn't believe what they got away with. I was a cop in New Mexico and back then we didn't pull the crap that Texass did/does. Can't say it's that way now. Oh, and I haven't gotten rude, yet. Wait until I go into my "good 'ol boy SE Texass redneck mode". I'm good at it. With your expertise, I'm sure you will know, good cop-bad cop...lol, right. I play both parts quite well. BTW, how many people have you arrested that later bought you a beer (yea beer, I don't drink that wine crap) with the comment "that was the nicest arrest I've ever had". Just a thought, how many have you arrested, how much investigation have you done? Not much for me, been shot at and missed s**t on and hit though. Oh, that's me in the avatar also, SKS (brought back from Vietnam) in the saddle scabbard and SW Mod 586 .357 just under the edge of the duster. Yea, rough country where I worked and lived and your brain better be in gear all the time or you didn't go home. You can defend all you want, the cops on KT are as crooked as they come and money buys pathologists very easy, especially when it is "an offer you can't refuse". Excuse me, crime scene at the David and Hannah murder, what crime scene? It was destroyed. Anybody in their right mind knows who did that murder, not the first and won't be the last. Go interview some of those on the island, if they'll talk to you. As I said before, this may really be a suicide, but from what little I know there are many, many doubts. I do have an open mind, but anybody that trusts the RTP and some pathologist in regards to a "suspicious death" on KT is quite frankly a fool.

Well said! I don't often side with "'Rednecks", and I'm not even from "The US of A", but I'm with you on this one! There are some people here on TV that will just not have it that there is something awry in KT, so there is no point in talking/corresponding with them as to quote an old saying "There's none so blind as those that will not see"

[Adeeos]

There's so many "loose" ends,,, Unless all are answered/tied up... no one HERE will ever have all the correct info to even make a viable scenerio,, was the note in English or French?... was there a chair, table, footstool, etc used that he maybe stepped off of?.... I see many here asking the same question over and over,, "How did he place the noose over his neck after his hands were tied?",,, I agree with that legitimate question, as it appears to be somewhat "light" gauge cord/string, and most likely would hang with the strands nearly touching, making it impossible to get ones head through the loop, with the hands tied behind the back,, This I agree,,, but going back to the question of was there a chair, table, footstool used to step off of?,, I ask because IF there was,, it's quite possible, to tie your hands in the front, step onto a stool, etc,, reach up and place the noose around the head, then step through your arms so the hands are behind the back, and then step off the stool,,, (which of course would be VERY difficult I think for someone that was reportedly very drunk) The scenerio just mentioned, "could/would" then make this very much a suicide,,,, But someone that did tie their hands, step through them, to not be able to, "back out",,, I'd think would also make sure the noose was tight,, I noticed from the pic, and someone else here mentioned,, the noose looked to be VERY loose/wide in the back, and a simple throwing the head back, or wiggling it side to side, etc,, would most likely result in it slipping off the head,,, So why would someone so determined to not be able to back out, miss something like that?.... But with all the unanswered questions, facts,,, no one will EVER know the true cause,, Again,, was there something to stand on?, was the letter written in English or French?,, what were the small cuts from, were they puncture woulds as in a knife?,,, or were they cuts/slices, as in someone in that possible state of mind attempting to harm themselves,,, then deciding to hang themselves?... It also looked like the cord was very short, and only a small amount left after it was tied to the rafter... That would either indicate, and honest suicide, or someone, most likely several, that maybe committed murder, staged to look like a suicide, they would have to kill the person, (or maybe passed out drunk person),,,, then with help, houst them up with a longer rope, tie it off st the rafter somehow, then cut off the excess,,,(unlikely they thought THAT far) or have someone help them lift a lifeless body up, place the noose/loop, then release them,,, if so?,,, they'd also have to have something in the area to stand on, to be able to reach that hight,,,, This is the main reason I think there's always SO many discussions on here about these subjects,, We, the general public, never get ALL the pertinant info/details,, either due to crappy, incomplete reporting,,, or the fact the RTP just don't give a $heet about us having that info,, or they just assume,,, that it's just really none or our business,,,,, Until ALL the facts, details of things like this are provided to the general public,,, there will ALWAYS be these discussions/debates/arguments,,,, ESP here,,,,

Edited January 5, 2015 by Adeeos

[Bakeman]

Some how I don't believe Demetri wrote the note with his hands tied behind his back then put the noose on then climbed over the balcony rail. Must be double jointed when drunk?

R.I.P.

[jacko45k]

The whole story stinks ...

Why would he tie his hands together and then hang himself ?

To prevent him changing his mind. It isn't like an execution where there is a substantial drop.

[HeijoshinCool]

I would say it was suicide .

The tied hands may well have been very loosely tied giving more slack to get your legs through

As another reply mentioned you would automatically try to save yourself if you didnt .

.

That is the perception, yes, which is why many suicides do secure their wrists with rope, tape, flex-cuffs, or handcuffs.

But the reality is that once the body weight is in play, there is almost instantaneous acute and severe mental confusion. Any ability to think, let alone reason, comes within a few seconds. That's the point of no return, hands out of play, or not.

[CapGary]

Before we start to develop our own conclusions based on how much drink we had or how much we like or dislike Thai government agencies I would suggest to read a book edited by Michael Tsokos MD who is I quote “Professor Michael Tsokos is the Director of the Institute of Forensic Sciences and Legal Medicine, Charite – Universitatsmedizin Berlin, in Berlin, Germany.

He is also the Director of the Governmental Institute of Forensic and Social Medicine in Berlin, Germany. He is the primary or senior author of more than 200 scientific publications in international peer-reviewed journals and the author as well as editor of a number of books dealing with topics of forensic pathology.

I wonder what he would have to say about it when reading the comments made by the armchair police officers here on this forum or the hobby pathologists.

Michael Tsokos was here after the Tsunami hit Thailand working side by side with international teams and Thai pathologists to identify the victims. No criticism from his end but only praise for their abilities.

The book contains contributions from pathologists from around the world and even Asia, which might shock the TV commentators. Reading these publications one might find that stranger things have happened as someone tying his hands and placing his head through noose to commit suicide. But that wouldn’t go down to well on this forum, would it?

Instead of that one prefers to insult the RTP and declare Thai pathologists incompetent. I find that pathetic.

I (and probably all of the TV posters) am not doubting the qualifications of Dr Tsokos, or his assessment of the work carried out by the Thai pathologists after the Tsunami. However, there was probably not much doubt as to the cause of death in the majority of the Tsunami victims, suicide certainly not being one of them. In this particular case, most people doubt that it was suicide because of the victim's hands tied behind his back, and also the cuts present on the body. Most posters would probably agree that It would be POSSIBLE for the victim to have inflicted the cuts on himself, tied his hands behind his back, put his head through a noose and hung himself, but is it PROBABLE? Especially bearing in mind that he had been drinking for more than 12 hours previously, and the possibility of a drunk man being capable of the "step through" technique described in previous posts seems unlikely. Add to that, the botched up RTP investigations into the murders of the 2 English backpackers, the contamination of the crime scene, the contradictory statements put out by very high ranking police officers, dubious DNA findings/results, and numerous substantiated reports of corruption in the highest ranks of the RTP, is it any wonder that people are a bit cynical about any findings?

Very well said.

[HeijoshinCool]

I might come as a shock to you but none of the TV commentators on this forum has familiarised themselves with the facts in any of the cases discussed here. Your comment that I make an ill-judged comment results from the fact that your mind is already made up. My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

As far as your suggestion goes to familiarise myself with the murders of David and Hannah I will wait for the conclusions the British police will draw when that report is released before passing judgement. I was not privy to the evidence at neither the crime scene nor the forensic investigation and from what I gather none the TV commentators had been part of the teams investigating the crimes.

Certainly I don’t deny anybody to have an opinion but opinions in most cases are based on emotions and in science emotions have no place only facts.

.

My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

Well, ma'am, while I agree with you there are a lot of foolish and ignorant comments on this thread, I don't agree that the RTP and the "pathologist" (if there was one) have acted professionally.

I was a homicide detective for eighteen years. I've been to a lot of suicide scenes, interacted with a lot of pathologists. As for this matter, several people have sent me photos not seen by most folks, including full frontals of the deceased and closeup shots of his face.

While there are signs of asphyxia present, there are also signs that he might have been sedated, or comatose, at the time of death. (No, I won't post what those were.)

There is not a competent coroner nor medical examiner in the US who would announce within 24 hours of death, that this was not murder, but suicide, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

There is not a competent police investigator in the west who would announce a case closed, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

Both would be either amateurish, misfeasant, or malfeasant.

Toxicology reports would first have to be received, and interpreted in conjunction with the other autopsy results, as well as the police investigation at the scene. Interviews with his friends and other potential witnesses would have to be conducted.

And frankly, I have doubts a pathologist came to Koh Tao and did an autopsy in a makeshift setup. All within hours of death. I might be wrong, but it is hard to believe based on what I've observed after seven years in Thailand. If the body was transported, why was it returned to Koh Tao? There are no facilities there to store a corpse.

The RTP apparently took it upon themselves to cremate a body in a hurry. By whose authority? Have they gotten permission from the next of kin? Have they even tried contacting the next of kin? What about the embassy? I doubt an embassy would authorize such quick cremation. I doubt the kin would, either.

So there are three possibilities here: misstatements of fact by the press; gross incompetence/ignorance on the part of the RTP; or worse, a cover up.

I don't pretend to know which one. But don't expect expect me to buy your claim that all is professional and above board in this matter. It is not.

[Anthony5]

I might come as a shock to you but none of the TV commentators on this forum has familiarised themselves with the facts in any of the cases discussed here. Your comment that I make an ill-judged comment results from the fact that your mind is already made up. My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

As far as your suggestion goes to familiarise myself with the murders of David and Hannah I will wait for the conclusions the British police will draw when that report is released before passing judgement. I was not privy to the evidence at neither the crime scene nor the forensic investigation and from what I gather none the TV commentators had been part of the teams investigating the crimes.

Certainly I don’t deny anybody to have an opinion but opinions in most cases are based on emotions and in science emotions have no place only facts.

.

My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

Well, ma'am, while I agree with you there are a lot of foolish and ignorant comments on this thread, I don't agree that the RTP and the "pathologist" (if there was one) have acted professionally.

I was a homicide detective for eighteen years. I've been to a lot of suicide scenes, interacted with a lot of pathologists. As for this matter, several people have sent me photos not seen by most folks, including full frontals of the deceased and closeup shots of his face.

While there are signs of asphyxia present, there are also signs that he might have been sedated, or comatose, at the time of death. (No, I won't post what those were.)

There is not a competent coroner nor medical examiner in the US who would announce within 24 hours of death, that this was not murder, but suicide, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

There is not a competent police investigator in the west who would announce a case closed, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

Both would be either amateurish, misfeasant, or malfeasant.

Toxicology reports would first have to be received, and interpreted in conjunction with the other autopsy results, as well as the police investigation at the scene. Interviews with his friends and other potential witnesses would have to be conducted.

And frankly, I have doubts a pathologist came to Koh Tao and did an autopsy in a makeshift setup. All within hours of death. I might be wrong, but it is hard to believe based on what I've observed after seven years in Thailand. If the body was transported, why was it returned to Koh Tao? There are no facilities there to store a corpse.

The RTP apparently took it upon themselves to cremate a body in a hurry. By whose authority? Have they gotten permission from the next of kin? Have they even tried contacting the next of kin? What about the embassy? I doubt an embassy would authorize such quick cremation. I doubt the kin would, either.

So there are three possibilities here: misstatements of fact by the press; gross incompetence/ignorance on the part of the RTP; or worse, a cover up.

I don't pretend to know which one. But don't expect expect me to buy your claim that all is professional and above board in this matter. It is not.

Where are the news reports that he has been cremated already ?

As an expert homicide detective I would have assumed that you been able to understand from the OP that case isn't closed at all, only treated as suicide, because probably so far there are no indications that there was something else involved. A future toxicity screening may or may not change the way the investigation is performed.

Apparently you are able to issue a pathology report going from some pictures taken by a news source.

[HeijoshinCool]

I might come as a shock to you but none of the TV commentators on this forum has familiarised themselves with the facts in any of the cases discussed here. Your comment that I make an ill-judged comment results from the fact that your mind is already made up. My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

As far as your suggestion goes to familiarise myself with the murders of David and Hannah I will wait for the conclusions the British police will draw when that report is released before passing judgement. I was not privy to the evidence at neither the crime scene nor the forensic investigation and from what I gather none the TV commentators had been part of the teams investigating the crimes.

Certainly I don’t deny anybody to have an opinion but opinions in most cases are based on emotions and in science emotions have no place only facts.

.

My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

Well, ma'am, while I agree with you there are a lot of foolish and ignorant comments on this thread, I don't agree that the RTP and the "pathologist" (if there was one) have acted professionally.

I was a homicide detective for eighteen years. I've been to a lot of suicide scenes, interacted with a lot of pathologists. As for this matter, several people have sent me photos not seen by most folks, including full frontals of the deceased and closeup shots of his face.

While there are signs of asphyxia present, there are also signs that he might have been sedated, or comatose, at the time of death. (No, I won't post what those were.)

There is not a competent coroner nor medical examiner in the US who would announce within 24 hours of death, that this was not murder, but suicide, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

There is not a competent police investigator in the west who would announce a case closed, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

Both would be either amateurish, misfeasant, or malfeasant.

Toxicology reports would first have to be received, and interpreted in conjunction with the other autopsy results, as well as the police investigation at the scene. Interviews with his friends and other potential witnesses would have to be conducted.

And frankly, I have doubts a pathologist came to Koh Tao and did an autopsy in a makeshift setup. All within hours of death. I might be wrong, but it is hard to believe based on what I've observed after seven years in Thailand. If the body was transported, why was it returned to Koh Tao? There are no facilities there to store a corpse.

The RTP apparently took it upon themselves to cremate a body in a hurry. By whose authority? Have they gotten permission from the next of kin? Have they even tried contacting the next of kin? What about the embassy? I doubt an embassy would authorize such quick cremation. I doubt the kin would, either.

So there are three possibilities here: misstatements of fact by the press; gross incompetence/ignorance on the part of the RTP; or worse, a cover up.

I don't pretend to know which one. But don't expect expect me to buy your claim that all is professional and above board in this matter. It is not.

Where are the news reports that he has been cremated already ?

As an expert homicide detective I would have assumed that you been able to understand from the OP that case isn't closed at all, only treated as suicide, because probably so far there are no indications that there was something else involved. A future toxicity screening may or may not change the way the investigation is performed.

Apparently you are able to issue a pathology report going from some pictures taken by a news source.

.

No need for sarcasm, nor innuendo.

Several media sources said the body was sent to a wat on Koh Tao. If you have an explanation other than cremating, I'm glad to hear it.

Several media sources said the RTP considered the case "closed." Read my post, please. I stated there might be misstatements by the media.

I also clearly stated I did not know the answers.

The photos I received were not taken by media. Why would you assume they were?

[stephen terry]

Dr. Porntip - good for her saying it's too early to rule it a suicide. At last, someone with the forensic qualifications to voice an open opinion before the RTP can cremate the body (hopefully).

To be resolved:

Actual cause of death - caused by the rope?

Any other observations that could impact, e.g. cuts to the neck, arm, wrist.

Toxicology report

Statements from friends, family - their opinions on his state of mind, worries, concerns etc.

Analysis of the suicide note, writing comparison. Enquiries as to who Iris is

Analysis of the crime scene - e.g. was a knife, blade found with the victim's DNA on it?

Reconstruction to determine feasibility

Any other witnesses - who found the body?

If, on the balance of doubt, all answers point to suicide rather than foul play, I am sure most posters on TV would accept a confirmation statement by Dr. Porntip. (That's an ideal (wishful thinking by me) that may never happen, based on previous deaths on Koh Tao and elsewhere. But I only hope she's a witness for the Burmese defence.)

[Adeeos]

I might come as a shock to you but none of the TV commentators on this forum has familiarised themselves with the facts in any of the cases discussed here. Your comment that I make an ill-judged comment results from the fact that your mind is already made up. My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

As far as your suggestion goes to familiarise myself with the murders of David and Hannah I will wait for the conclusions the British police will draw when that report is released before passing judgement. I was not privy to the evidence at neither the crime scene nor the forensic investigation and from what I gather none the TV commentators had been part of the teams investigating the crimes.

Certainly I don’t deny anybody to have an opinion but opinions in most cases are based on emotions and in science emotions have no place only facts.

.

My comment refers to an investigation that has been conducted by the RTP and an autopsy has been taken place that required a pathologist and who is supposed to be skilled in forensic matters. It doesn’t matter what the RTP thinks in this case because it is the pathologist that looks at the body and who has to confirm if a second party has been involved. If his conclusion is that this was not the case the matter as far as the police are concerned is closed.

Well, ma'am, while I agree with you there are a lot of foolish and ignorant comments on this thread, I don't agree that the RTP and the "pathologist" (if there was one) have acted professionally.

I was a homicide detective for eighteen years. I've been to a lot of suicide scenes, interacted with a lot of pathologists. As for this matter, several people have sent me photos not seen by most folks, including full frontals of the deceased and closeup shots of his face.

While there are signs of asphyxia present, there are also signs that he might have been sedated, or comatose, at the time of death. (No, I won't post what those were.)

There is not a competent coroner nor medical examiner in the US who would announce within 24 hours of death, that this was not murder, but suicide, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

There is not a competent police investigator in the west who would announce a case closed, when the toxicology screening had not even been started.

Both would be either amateurish, misfeasant, or malfeasant.

Toxicology reports would first have to be received, and interpreted in conjunction with the other autopsy results, as well as the police investigation at the scene. Interviews with his friends and other potential witnesses would have to be conducted.

And frankly, I have doubts a pathologist came to Koh Tao and did an autopsy in a makeshift setup. All within hours of death. I might be wrong, but it is hard to believe based on what I've observed after seven years in Thailand. If the body was transported, why was it returned to Koh Tao? There are no facilities there to store a corpse.

The RTP apparently took it upon themselves to cremate a body in a hurry. By whose authority? Have they gotten permission from the next of kin? Have they even tried contacting the next of kin? What about the embassy? I doubt an embassy would authorize such quick cremation. I doubt the kin would, either.

So there are three possibilities here: misstatements of fact by the press; gross incompetence/ignorance on the part of the RTP; or worse, a cover up.

I don't pretend to know which one. But don't expect expect me to buy your claim that all is professional and above board in this matter. It is not.

BRAVO!... this has got to be one of, THE most concise, well written, and (spoken by someone WITH obviously some background) posts about this kinda CRAP shoved down our throats by the RTP on nearly a daily basis, I didn't know he'd been cremated already,, (has that been confirmed?).... if this is true,,, THAT in it's self raises sooooo many flags,, if he was cremated, BEFORE a proper autopsy, toxicology report,,, my GOD the RTP think we're all getting more stupid by the hours, days,,, UNbelievable if this is true,,, Even the initial report stated,, "Foul play is suspected",,,, so they went from suspected, to NO,, was not foul play,, gotten in touch with family, gotten permission for cremation, (I'm just guessing here,, but DOUBT that type of permission could be given/accepted via a phone call),, surely the RTP would have to get WRITTEN confirmation from the victim's families Embassy.... They've gotten all this done, autopsy/toxicology/written permission,,, etc,, ALL over a 5 days holiday... All wrapped up nice, quickly, and neatly,,, MAN these guys are good,,, no wonder they never need outside help from real law enforcement agents,,, My GOD this reeks,,,

[webfact]

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist



BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

The victim who was a tourist was found dead in his hotel room on New Year’s Day with his hands and neck tied to ropes. Police suspected he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But Associate Professor Charnkanit Krittiya Suriyamanee, a criminologist and lecturer at the faculty of social science and humanities of Mahidol University, said he doubted the suicide theory citing some irrelevant evidences.

He said that the victim had been drunk to the extent that he was unable to control himself, he would not have been able to tie himself up so tightly that he died of suffocation.

Had he hanged himself, the professor pointed out that the bruises should have appeared on the neck than on his wrists. Also, he noted that the several pieces of rope which were used in the suspected suicide appeared to be different which might suggest that the death was not caused by suicide.

The wound on the victim’s elbow could have been inflicted by someone else, he said.

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/criminologist-doubts-suicide-theory-tourist


-- Thai PBS 2015-01-06

[Adeeos]

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist

BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

The victim who was a tourist was found dead in his hotel room on New Year’s Day with his hands and neck tied to ropes. Police suspected he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But Associate Professor Charnkanit Krittiya Suriyamanee, a criminologist and lecturer at the faculty of social science and humanities of Mahidol University, said he doubted the suicide theory citing some irrelevant evidences.

He said that the victim had been drunk to the extent that he was unable to control himself, he would not have been able to tie himself up so tightly that he died of suffocation.

Had he hanged himself, the professor pointed out that the bruises should have appeared on the neck than on his wrists. Also, he noted that the several pieces of rope which were used in the suspected suicide appeared to be different which might suggest that the death was not caused by suicide.

The wound on the victim’s elbow could have been inflicted by someone else, he said.

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/criminologist-doubts-suicide-theory-tourist

-- Thai PBS 2015-01-06

So,,, let the TVF "Criminologists" who routinely defend the RTP on ANY subject they're suspected of, corrupting/fouling up,,,, start tearing into this guy,,,, I'm sure he knows not of what he speaks, compared to all you, "experts"...... This guy is saying/questioning nearly exactly the same inconsistancies that many of us on here have said from day one,,,,, lol

Edited January 6, 2015 by Adeeos

[HooHaa]

well, if nothing else this incident has exposed the pathetic ghoulishness of so many posters here.

reminds me of the high school suicide phenomenon: person kills themselves because they dont fit in and have no friends, and everyone who snubbed them in life tries to get in on the action by pretending they gave a damn.

Edited January 6, 2015 by HooHaa

[Tatsujin]

Good to see some Thai's speak out against the RTP for once ... would be nice if they looked into all the foreigner "suicides" over the years to determine the real cause of death and who the perpetrators actually were (as if we didn't already know in most cases).

[HooHaa]

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist

BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

The victim who was a tourist was found dead in his hotel room on New Year’s Day with his hands and neck tied to ropes. Police suspected he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But Associate Professor Charnkanit Krittiya Suriyamanee, a criminologist and lecturer at the faculty of social science and humanities of Mahidol University, said he doubted the suicide theory citing some irrelevant evidences.

He said that the victim had been drunk to the extent that he was unable to control himself, he would not have been able to tie himself up so tightly that he died of suffocation.

Had he hanged himself, the professor pointed out that the bruises should have appeared on the neck than on his wrists. Also, he noted that the several pieces of rope which were used in the suspected suicide appeared to be different which might suggest that the death was not caused by suicide.

The wound on the victim’s elbow could have been inflicted by someone else, he said.

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/criminologist-doubts-suicide-theory-tourist

-- Thai PBS 2015-01-06

So,,, let the TVF "Criminologists" who routinely defend the RTP on ANY subject they're suspected of, corrupting/fouling up,,,, start tearing into this guy,,,, I'm sure he knows not of what he speaks, compared to all you, "experts"...... This guy is saying/questioning nearly exactly the same inconsistancies that many of us on here have said from day one,,,,, lol

yes, the difference is this guy actually has a leg to stand on, and isnt making his speculation known while sitting in an egg-stained single swilling pints while posting nonsense on the interwebs.

[Adeeos]

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist

BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

The victim who was a tourist was found dead in his hotel room on New Year’s Day with his hands and neck tied to ropes. Police suspected he committed suicide by hanging himself.

But Associate Professor Charnkanit Krittiya Suriyamanee, a criminologist and lecturer at the faculty of social science and humanities of Mahidol University, said he doubted the suicide theory citing some irrelevant evidences.

He said that the victim had been drunk to the extent that he was unable to control himself, he would not have been able to tie himself up so tightly that he died of suffocation.

Had he hanged himself, the professor pointed out that the bruises should have appeared on the neck than on his wrists. Also, he noted that the several pieces of rope which were used in the suspected suicide appeared to be different which might suggest that the death was not caused by suicide.

The wound on the victim’s elbow could have been inflicted by someone else, he said.

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/criminologist-doubts-suicide-theory-tourist

-- Thai PBS 2015-01-06

So,,, let the TVF "Criminologists" who routinely defend the RTP on ANY subject they're suspected of, corrupting/fouling up,,,, start tearing into this guy,,,, I'm sure he knows not of what he speaks, compared to all you, "experts"...... This guy is saying/questioning nearly exactly the same inconsistancies that many of us on here have said from day one,,,,, lol

yes, the difference is this guy actually has a leg to stand on, and isnt making his speculation known while sitting in an egg-stained single swilling pints while posting nonsense on the interwebs.

Well "HooHa",,,, You're right, and you just proved my point, as well as several other's point,, This guy DOES have a leg to stand on,, and is saying nearly EXACTLY what many others have tried to express,,, the difference is it obviously doesn't take a rocket scientist, to actually think things through, and make a logical conclusion,, (as several have done),,, just so happens that those, logical, educated, non-blinders wearing conclusions, just happen to follow right along side of the, logical/educated conclusions of a person that's obviously been educated in making such logical/educated deductions,,,, Whereas the normal "experts" on here,, will see NOTHING other than defend the RTP at all costs,, truth/logic be damned!,,,, What part of,, several people on here that posed very similar questions as this TRAINED professional, don't you get?... ALL many said was,, pretty much,, after thinking through what the media had posted,, was that they were questioning some of the, "facts" stated,,, Whereas the typical, RTP supporters would never think of posing a,, "Hhmmm I don't know about this",,,, No, in their minds,, "ALL hail the great and oh so wise RTP,, GREAT job men, we salute you",,,,, jeez,,,

Edited January 6, 2015 by PoorSucker
Changed to standard font

[DJVillain]

Ruling suicide saves time and is less work and there is no profit in investigating deaths under suspicious circumstances.

You're not wrong...

In fact; if the RTP on Koh Tao bang up the guy that keeps paying them to look the other way, the murders will stop and so will their paychecks!

Perish the thought...

[Adeeos]

Ruling suicide saves time and is less work and there is no profit in investigating deaths under suspicious circumstances.

You're not wrong...

In fact; if the RTP on Koh Tao bang up the guy that keeps paying them to look the other way, the murders will stop and so will their paychecks!

Perish the thought...

While I normally take no joy in wishing harm, or death to someone I don't even know,,, Certain people just deserve such,,,, I'd love nothing more than to see the person I think many people suspect of most of this crap on that island, end up EXACTLY,, in a similar situation,, something along the lines of what he's most likely done to more than a few people on that island, and who knows where else ,,, I would truly enjoy following THAT thread on here, and watch the RTP, step, fetch, and jump through hoops to satisfy that persons family,,, very doubtful it'd be such an open and shut case as all the others we read about on here seem to be,,,

Edited January 6, 2015 by Adeeos

[micmichd]

Ruling suicide saves time and is less work and there is no profit in investigating deaths under suspicious circumstances.

You're not wrong...

In fact; if the RTP on Koh Tao bang up the guy that keeps paying them to look the other way, the murders will stop and so will their paychecks!

Perish the thought...

While I normally take no joy in wishing harm, or death to someone I don't even know,,, Certain people just deserve such,,,, I'd love nothing more than to see the person I think many people suspect of most of this crap on that island, end up EXACTLY,, in a similar situation,, something along the lines of what he's most likely done to more than a few people on that island, and who knows where else ,,, I would truly enjoy following THAT thread on here, and watch the RTP, step, fetch, and jump through hoops to satisfy that persons family,,, very doubtful it'd be such an open and shut case as all the others we read about on here seem to be,,,

No one deserves a death like this, whether suicide or not.

You must be very desperate to commit suicide like this, and I think that many suicides (incl. suicide attempts) are also a result of unheard cries for help. Thailand (especially Pattaya) seems to be getting a magnet for Farang desperados. Any ideas why?

[cup-O-coffee]

If CSI TV says it is murder, who are the RTP to say it's suicide.

If you wish to side with the RTP findings at face value, then that is your right. Where I disagree with your sarcasm - and I do disagree with it - is that you dismiss the very things which I suspect most TV members engage in; logic, rational, common sense, etc.

Furthermore, the purpose of going public in the media, or for the RTP to make a public announcement, is solely to present the reasons - to the public - for what their conclusions are. In doing so, it is in the right of every public individual to speculate on whether those reasons provided fit any credible and convincing description to their conclusions; based upon logic, rationale common sense, etc. and not blind, abject acceptance instead... which you allude to wanting to embrace

Rarely is rationale common sense, etc. the case with the RTP, yet you opt to sarcastically champion incompetence, omitted details, lies (a.k.a. altered statements, rescinded testimonies) and so many many more items that any intelligent person would otherwise use to build a strong and convincing trail leading up to an outcome.

It is an insult to read what the media reports as an investigative story, and it is an insult to read what the police present to the public with so many pieces missing. It is even more of an insult that these two information resources actually think the public is that stupid and gullible enough to buy their utterly BS utterances when there is so much more information begging to be disclosed, yet never is.

That is my view. If you want to sarcastically call me a name for it, then again that is you right, but I do not see much credibility in your substance lacking reasoning or choices.

Edited January 6, 2015 by cup-O-coffee

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

All that have been here in Thailand for several years or more have seen dozens of these so called suicides by hanging with the victims hands tied behind their backs. I just wonder how often this happens (if ever) in the western world where the police are generally respected more for their CSI skills. does anyone have any info on this? It seems to happen very often here which I find even more bizarre (once would be strange enough but is this a trend in the world or only in Thailand?).

Next let's look at all of the so called suicides from balcony falls. I know the railings are a bit lower here but this has got to be the hub of exact same suicides or what?

My thoughts are that these some methods point towards the same perpetrator not the same type of bizarre suicides that only seem to happen in LOS (land of suicides).

BIB seem eager to always go with the same BS conclusions, I say look no further than those trying to cover it up or at least the people that can afford to pay them off (or at least pay them to do the job for them).

[Delcavom]

Whoa! Slow down. Did this investigator use the word "Theory"? He better be careful if conspiracy gets in there he might be labeled a crack pot by people viewing this thread!

[max72]

Good to see some Thai's speak out against the RTP for once ... would be nice if they looked into all the foreigner "suicides" over the years to determine the real cause of death and who the perpetrators actually were (as if we didn't already know in most cases).

I remember a case with a farang having been stabbed about 30 times on his back by his gf and it was ruled as a suicide too.

She had some friends upstairs....

[Delcavom]

In your Farang countries you would probably say "case closed = good police job".

Why different in Thailand?

Oh sorry, I forgot: Dead Farang smells like a God was killed.

I dont think Farang are considering themselves Gods. It is more like fear of being treated like rats.

We have had cases in our Farang countries where we get "case closed" but some of those cases get re-opened due to new information. Mistakes get made and we have seen it. That is why people want to discuss these issues so justice can be served.

[Jim walker]

If you are going away to kill yourself why bother to tie up your hands to many anomalies here to be an open and shut case, it would be nice if the RTP would spend some time looking into the case.

[oneday]

Criminologist doubts suicide theory of a tourist

BANGKOK: -- A criminologist has voiced his support for calls by media and relatives of a victim of suspected suicide by the police and forensic experts to look for more evidences to determine the exact cause of the death the victim.

...

He also suggested that it was not too late to check the level of alcohol in the body of the dead victim to find out if he was drunk or not.

...

So they haven't even bothered to check his blood / alcohol level. Why am I not surprised? That would be the first thing to do to determine how drunk he was which would go a long way to verifying or disproving his ability to do this to himself.

[starky]

If CSI TV says it is murder, who are the RTP to say it's suicide.

If you wish to side with the RTP findings at face value, then that is your right. Where I disagree with your sarcasm - and I do disagree with it - is that you dismiss the very things which I suspect most TV members engage in; logic, rational, common sense, etc.

Furthermore, the purpose of going public in the media, or for the RTP to make a public announcement, is solely to present the reasons - to the public - for what their conclusions are. In doing so, it is in the right of every public individual to speculate on whether those reasons provided fit any credible and convincing description to their conclusions; based upon logic, rationale common sense, etc. and not blind, abject acceptance instead... which you allude to wanting to embrace

Rarely is rationale common sense, etc. the case with the RTP, yet you opt to sarcastically champion incompetence, omitted details, lies (a.k.a. altered statements, rescinded testimonies) and so many many more items that any intelligent person would otherwise use to build a strong and convincing trail leading up to an outcome.

It is an insult to read what the media reports as an investigative story, and it is an insult to read what the police present to the public with so many pieces missing. It is even more of an insult that these two information resources actually think the public is that stupid and gullible enough to buy their utterly BS utterances when there is so much more information begging to be disclosed, yet never is.

That is my view. If you want to sarcastically call me a name for it, then again that is you right, but I do not see much credibility in your substance lacking reasoning or choices.