Tep Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 This was an operation. Whether 'wolf pack' related or directed is yet to be established. It had an objective. It was an attack on a pillar of western liberal democracy. Political satire is an integral part of western liberal democracies. Satirists prick egos. Satirists identify and alert us to tyranny, whether it is the tyranny of religious or other ideology. Western liberal democracies must learn from this and take precautions. They must also respond to the threat. The execution of creative, free thinking, active contributors to dynamic and beneficial political thought is abhor ant. To glory in this event to support anti-immigrant bigotry is offensive. Your dancing around the remains of these slain artists to push your anti-immigrant bigotry is offensive. The way you spray your bile all over this thread attacking anyone who is not buying your ideological bigotry is offensive. Others have taken the opportunity to push a gun ownership agenda. This too is offensive and was shut down quickly. You may call me apologist. The slur has no meaning. I apologise for nothing. I believe these executions were committed by muslim fighters as a direct result of the challenge the satirists posed to their muslim ideology. Even though this is not actually proven, I believe it is highly likely to be the case. Your hysteria is pointless. Your bigotry is obvious. Your bullying is offensive. Your appropriation of #jesuischarlie is shameful. You may return to hiding under your bed. Here you go calling anyone who is pushing for immigration reform bigots. I married a woman who was on a work permit and facilitated her immigration to my home country. I am hardly anti immigration. But maybe, just maybe we need to recognize that one part of the world cannot and will not assimilate with our societies ? So we have to amend our immigration policies ? The anti-immigrants offer us what? The notion that this and other abhorrent events will not happen by closing the borders. What else do they offer? Vague references to 'final solution' type programs to deal with existing migrant populations or some nebulous thought control policing to identify ideologically unsuitable persons. The anti-immigrant bigotry is clear for all to see in these threads on Muslim related incidents. Happy to discuss immigration policy on a thread that does not degenerate into an anti-muslim slanging match. Happy to talk about the principles of assimilation, multiculturalism, economic refugees, cultural dynamism, economic benefits of migration, consequences of colonialism and imperialistic military ventures and all sorts of things. But not over the slain bodies of those executed for their political beliefs and actions. Those of us in Thailand are immigrants. Yet many are rabid anti-immigrant. It comes from many sources including their bigotry. I do not call those who want immigration reform bigots. I call those who demand wholesale expulsion of a group of people and stereotypes these groups bigots. A generation ago it was Asians. Now it is Muslims. Who knows what group will be demonised in the next generation. Also please review the posts of the person to whom I directed my comments. How can you have a rational discussion with that? You just repeated yourself and enacted Godwins law with your "final solution" comment. The first thing you have to drop is your cultural relativism. Contrary to your divine politically correct doctrine, not all cultures are equal. Some are more rational and civil then others. Do you really think the world will grind to a halt if western Europe imposed a ban on all immigration from Islamic countries ? Guess what.. It won't. And there will be less terror attacks because of it. Pretty simple stuff. He who mentions Hitler first loses? I didn't mention the Nazis but used one of their terms. I wait for the anti immigrants to dispose what their plan is for existing migrant populations. In any case, I repeat myself because I don't believe this atrocity in Paris is an appropriate vehicle for anti-immigration discussions. I do not believe that is the appropriate response to this incident. I said I was happy to discuss immigration anywhere else. But not on this thread. It is offensive to the purpose of the lives of those slain in a political, paramilitary style operation inspired by religious hatred. Point to an immigration threat or another place and I will happily engage you there. In that venue I might also discuss my views on cultural relativism, a subject on which you cannot possibly know my views based on my posts in this thread. You are projecting on that. I do not like that this event is hijacked by the anti-immigrant bigots and they glory in the event to push their agenda. All the 'told you so', all the lists of past atrocities. They do not honour the memories of those slain artists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tep Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yea, be careful there, H1. You don't want people to think you're not a "serious discussant," do you? You have something to say on the deaths of these artists? Or do you too just use this incident to push your ideology? Wanna make a serious point or just play in the school yard? I said it--regarding your absurd, silly comparison of Farangs in Thailand to Muslim immigrants in the West. And you dodged it. Instead, you continue to post the most constipated prose I've yet read on this forum. "Discussant," heh, heh, heh. How old are you? Did somebody just give you a thesaurus for your 18th birthday? There was no comparison of foreigners in Thailand to muslim immigration. You entirely mis-read the point. Again you have any point to make beyond stylistic comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 The core of the problem is probably religious defamation, ie the smashing of a cultura collective face. One side's freedom of speech (or satire) is the other side's insult. I remember there was a movie about Jesus Christ several years ago, claiming that his caretaker gf (Maria Magdalena) was in fact a prostitute. This movie caused several attacks on cinemas within the all-so-liberal Christian communities. I am not a Christian, but I'm far from insulting anyone's cognitive frame. I would suggest you treat others like you want to be treated by them, and not fall for childish revenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Sick ! I agree with people saying this was not terrorism. I think this is war. I wouldn't be surprised if the two are ISIS fighters who came back to France. some possible actions coming to mind: - send the foreign legion to help the Kurds against ISIS. The legion can do the fighting and the Kurds can control the liberated territory - State-subsidise a new Charlie Hebdo with offices located within a secure location Would make more sense to simply tighten up immigration and domestic security. Sending the Foreign Legion will to Iraq will not help much with similar attacks. Charlie Hebdo as a state subsidized outfit? If this comment was not made under such tragic circumstances it would have been comic. What do you think is ISIS doing in the middle east? They are building a big factory of hate and will then want to export that hate to the whole world. 50% of the muslim community in France has French passports already, and about 1000 ISIS fighters have French passports. Well, raise the customs tax and apply other measures to restrict this stuff being imported (or whichever analogy works). At the same time trying to figure out a viable way to change things out of country. As Mom used to say, tidy up the mess in your room before going out to play. As for those already in-country, it seems that the security forces are not so much in the dark (as seen from identifying the suspects quickly, and one of them having a relevant prior arrest), but rather that their actions are limited by law and/or policy. By the way, if information released is correct, and the attackers are AQ, rather than IS, well - not as if it makes IS a bunch of angels, and certainly it needs to be dealt with, just that better to keep tabs on who is attacked for what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ourmanflint Posted January 8, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2015 Radical Islam has already won, everyone is running scared, from newspapers to governments. At some point unless we actually stand up for what we believe in, Europe WILL become an islamic state in 30 years time, and that will just be the beginning. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Extremism has and will always be a part of human civilization. It cannot be stamped out. At best we can lessen it with more tolerance, less racism and meddling geopolitics. When constant discontent becomes hatred it only takes a small group to lead it into fanaticism. I wish there was a way to give this more than one like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) One of the Montrouge gunman has been arrested, 2 policemen wounded Edited January 8, 2015 by Kitsune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 A thinking man can see Islam needs to be suppressed and eliminated, as were the Nazi's and the Shinto fanatics from Japan in the 40's. When Ideologies cross borders and attack citizens abiding by the laws of their own nation; it becomes a political movement. It is an act of war and evidence that an ideology/religion that has crossed the threshold and become incompatible with 21st century civilization. Unfortunately I fear the death toll will be multiplied by magnitudes before the political will to effectively resist will be gathered. How can a religion numbering over a billion people be "suppressed and eliminated"? Or is the notion aimed at somehow developing a method separating the belief from the believers? Mass conversions, perhaps? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tep Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 If your on a visa/extension of stay no your not an immigrant in Thailand yes let's use precise words "Non-immigrant" is very precise to me as to the meaning.....simple as that I would disagree with you but this is not the place. I could have used the words 'you choose to live in Thailand' to make the same point about those who loudly and belligerently talk about the desire of others to live where they would like i.e. in the homeland of those anti-immigrants. I endeavoured to point to the hypocrisy of the position. I agree non-immigrant has a precise definition within the context of the Thai immigration regulations. I don't think this means anything beyond specific regulatory arrangements and should not be assumed to mean anything about a person's intention or actual circumstances. I am sure this will come up again so maybe we can argue the point on the next anti-immigrant thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i claudius Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yea, be careful there, H1. You don't want people to think you're not a "serious discussant," do you? You have something to say on the deaths of these artists? Or do you too just use this incident to push your ideology? Wanna make a serious point or just play in the school yard? I said it--regarding your absurd, silly comparison of Farangs in Thailand to Muslim immigrants in the West. And you dodged it. Instead, you continue to post the most constipated prose I've yet read on this forum. "Discussant," heh, heh, heh. How old are you? Did somebody just give you a thesaurus for your 18th birthday? No way can you compare us immegrants here ,the same as you cannot compare Thai immegrants in say Britain ,there really are so few of us and we especially jump through hoops to stay ,like anything its ok in moderation ,but if all of a sudden millions of Christians from the west arrived in Thailand demanding that you adopt our laws ,there would be an outcry of hatred towards us i am sure just like there is in the west against Muslims ,we have been so tolerent but i fear that tide is rapidly turning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Western governments you've been warned, the ppl will vote you out and will place others in power that will deal with situations like this with an iron fist. I think we're getting close to the boiling point as it wouldn't surprise me if militia starts to avenge these ever so frequent attacks. I truly fear this but what's in place now is not working. This is so 1930's.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) Where is the courage ? Edited January 8, 2015 by Kitsune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Thai at Heart Posted January 8, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2015 One is not an immigrant until one has obtained legal permenant right of stay, AMD as such takes on the same rights as the domestic population. People who get off an aeroplane and have to report to.immigration are not legal immigrants. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravip Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 When you invite the wolf onto your farm don't start complaining when it slaughters your chickens. Religion is the root of so much evil on this planet. A superb truthful post that could hurt many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieH Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 A thinking man can see Islam needs to be suppressed and eliminated, as were the Nazi's and the Shinto fanatics from Japan in the 40's. When Ideologies cross borders and attack citizens abiding by the laws of their own nation; it becomes a political movement. It is an act of war and evidence that an ideology/religion that has crossed the threshold and become incompatible with 21st century civilization. Unfortunately I fear the death toll will be multiplied by magnitudes before the political will to effectively resist will be gathered. a thinking man citing the suppression and elimination of a religion in the same sentence as the nazis there ladies and gents. don't think too hard eh? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirineou Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 an atrocious. barbaric reprehensible incident, My thoughts are with the families of those who died and are wounded Non the less, this and other incidents are a case of the chickens coming home to roost. We created this environment with our melding in their affairs for decades, now .......... well at least we can feel good that we did liberate Iraq! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tep Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 What will it be next; '12 dead after unforseen gun discharges'? I have stated my belief that this act was a political act instigated by fighters who are muslims on the basis of their ideology. This has not been confirmed but is conjecture. There are many possible responses to this, most of which need more information, more clarity and less noise from the anti immigrant bigots. There will be domestic and international consequences. There may need to be military responses. If not military, then the role of intelligence agencies may need to be expanded. I support actions that protect the basis of western liberal democracies under attack from ideologically opposing forces. Why is taking a position that this is a political act threaten those who have another agenda derived entirely from bigotry, racism and hatred? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, a little dressing up doesn't make it a peacock. If the gunmen had cried out as they were murdering 12 people, "God Bless the Democratic Party", perhaps you would have a case for calling it political. As it is you don't have squat. You disagree on my thoughts on the consequences that should result from this atrocity? I think I have consistently and aptly described a duck. My point is that others seem to be describing another animal altogether. If this is not a political action, more or less an act of war associated with a non-state entity, what should France and the rest of us do to protect ourselves. Live and work in fortresses? Send in the troops? To where? I will go further on a limb and open myself to more asinine comments by the gum flappers out there but I think a domestic response should be to bolster a criminal justice system that openly and transparently and objectively tries and convicts these criminals. Just like every other criminal action. There are other measures but I believe changes in immigration policy to be too much of a blunt instrument and an easy sop to the hysterical crowd. I don't have squat because most other people don't have squat. Until more information is released. that is. I, like everyone else is speculating on the basis of what information is being provided. Do you have any solutions to offer on how to prevent this or to fight this? I am honestly asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farang two dot zero Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi guys, i'm french and that is the last news currently two suspects brothers were born in France are researched by Police, one of them would have left his identity card in the first stolen car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitsune Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi guys, i'm french and that is the last news currently two suspects brothers were born in France are researched by Police, one of them would have left his identity card in the first stolen car... Arrete de dire n'importe quoi. The guy who's ID was in the card was just a normal high school student they tried to frame. He has a very good alibi as he was at school at the moment of the events and the all class is his witness 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H1w4yR1da Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I said it--regarding your absurd, silly comparison of Farangs in Thailand to Muslim immigrants in the West. And you dodged it. Instead, you continue to post the most constipated prose I've yet read on this forum. "Discussant," heh, heh, heh. How old are you? Did somebody just give you a thesaurus for your 18th birthday? There was no comparison of foreigners in Thailand to muslim immigration. You entirely mis-read the point. Again you have any point to make beyond stylistic comments?Lets see shall we?Those of us in Thailand are immigrants. Yet many are rabid anti-immigrant. Here we go again. Someone shooting their mouth off and comparing Farangs in Thailand to Muslims coming into the West. Once again Farangs do not: Demand that Thais close down any Wats because they offend Farangs Demand that Thais adjust their eating habits and the serving of certain foods and alcohol. Go out in a rampaging mob and beat up Thai people because they don't like the way they dress, act, or behave. Create Farang Anti-Discrimination Committees that demand special privileges and positions in business and government Ask for special places of worship at airports, hospitals, or schools. Now--do you begin to understand the difference yet. And actually the quote about being 'anti-immigrant' is also complete BS!Personally, I'm only anti-immigrant when their culture, as with medieval-like Islam, is plainly incompatible with western culture. This point of view is being proven correct by numerous recent events perpetrated by muslims. This means I'm against the Islamification of Europe. In your eyes, that makes me racist and a bigot. https://www.change.org/p/u-s-house-of-representatives-ban-the-religious-status-of-islam-in-america-and-close-the-jihad-training-camps-for-good?tk=gXutf5d-hx0JBaKWNGuKypZER7FVvfPeAnfHYklPC0U&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=petition_message_notice Edited January 8, 2015 by H1w4yR1da 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tep Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yea, be careful there, H1. You don't want people to think you're not a "serious discussant," do you? You have something to say on the deaths of these artists? Or do you too just use this incident to push your ideology? Wanna make a serious point or just play in the school yard? I said it--regarding your absurd, silly comparison of Farangs in Thailand to Muslim immigrants in the West. And you dodged it. Instead, you continue to post the most constipated prose I've yet read on this forum. "Discussant," heh, heh, heh. How old are you? Did somebody just give you a thesaurus for your 18th birthday? No way can you compare us immegrants here ,the same as you cannot compare Thai immegrants in say Britain ,there really are so few of us and we especially jump through hoops to stay ,like anything its ok in moderation ,but if all of a sudden millions of Christians from the west arrived in Thailand demanding that you adopt our laws ,there would be an outcry of hatred towards us i am sure just like there is in the west against Muslims ,we have been so tolerent but i fear that tide is rapidly turning. This issue is in response to a statement I made in post 393. I do not make any comparison between immigration to Thailand and muslim immigration. Some posters have deliberately or otherwise misread and misrepresented this.. The rest of your comment relates to assimilation. I have views on this but I have consistently stated that I don't believe this thread should be about immigration, so I won't post my thoughts on this. We have yet to know the nationality status of the criminals and perpetrators of this atrocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farang two dot zero Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Last update for Montrouge city: two municipal officers shot, they had been called to a traffic scene accident involving a gray car brand Renault Clio model. It was at this point that one or two men opened fire with assault rifles, a man would immediately fled on foot toward the Metro station Châtillon-Montrouge. Testimonies speak another man fleeing by car to Paris, witnesses stating that he was wearing a bulletproof vest and drove a white Clio. A car matching that description was found about 9:30 am near the Metro Laplace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravip Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 By the centuries same crap in the name of different gods. "Zydeco" in this forum mentioned rasism against muslim ...(???) he must be completely blinded by the media. (Nobody pushed those from other countries to stay in France ......they begged to be part of it) Open your eyes ...and maybe try it for yourself and go to muslim country with your woman and try to say that you are not even religious....( non religious are treated even worst from different religion ) Question is...: would you do the same they did in the name of .....(any name...) They were shouting slogan as old as humanity ; "God is great " All those fanatics thru the centuries are using gods for the same thing ; to possess and kill in the name of own religion . This even was just barbaric step against free speach and free media . Yes we are living in modern but still barbaric world of many with mobile phone in one hand and matchete in other............ Nothing really changed..... Still same old mixed sh...t poor fanatics and their religion .....it does not matter what kind. Some with drones, instead of machetes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 EU should consider bringing back the death penalty (at least for terror related murders). Note: I am not sure if individual countries of EU can opt to do it by themselves, independent from EU overall (I guess not). I am saying this not just because of vengeance; I am saying this because of the fact that in jails, such murderers might be seen as heroes by some inmates and might inspire some to go for terror attacks after leaving jail. Death penalty will provide very little deterrence against religious zealots. If anything, it assures their martyrdom, both in their own eyes and in the way viewed by supporters. Prison sentences do not necessarily have to be uniform in the level of liberties and rights given to inmates. Associating with other inmates, for example. As for various suggestions regarding desecration of bodies, usually by means of symbols offensive to Muslims, such as pig skin etc. For one thing, this is rather like becoming the thing abhorred. Secondly, don't hold your breath for this being effective, any Imam worth his salt should be able to sell a theological workaround (or a free pass), well enough to convince a potential attacker it will all work out fine on the other side. On the other hand, this would serve as great recruitment material ("look at what these infidels did to the shahid") for other attackers. The last bit was not included in your post, but seem to pop up whenever the death sentence for Muslim terrorists is concerened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cookee68 Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Will we see a Paris protest march against Islam rallies soon ? It is more than a march that is needed, maybe the Muslims should march against their own, then maybe the hate for them will not be so bad, but they are cowards to say or do anything against their own out of fear, yet the good out number the bad, and remaining silent only helps the bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farang two dot zero Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) The guy who's ID was in the card was just a normal high school student they tried to frame. Arrete de dire n'importe quoi. He has a very good alibi as he was at school at the moment of the events and the all class is his witness Sorry you confuse all, the yound guy had driven the attackers vehicle and he would have gone to the police so i'm talking about one of the two gunmen ! Edited January 8, 2015 by Farang two dot zero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morch Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Let us hope the authorities catch and punish these bastards quickly and severely. We will hunt them forever and will expose their racist and religous bigotry. After that we will put them on Devil's Island again making impossible to escape. Everyday they will be retold what they did to the innocent people of a free country.Their families will pay reparations to the families of the murdered. There is no punishment too unkind for them. Wonder how much time will pass before "we will shut down Devil's Island" will become an election campaign promise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Radical Islam has already won, everyone is running scared, from newspapers to governments. At some point unless we actually stand up for what we believe in, Europe WILL become an islamic state in 30 years time, and that will just be the beginning. Then please stand up and tell what you really believe in. Freedom to take money and spend money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Inflammatory posts and replies have been removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micmichd Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Yea, be careful there, H1. You don't want people to think you're not a "serious discussant," do you? You have something to say on the deaths of these artists? Or do you too just use this incident to push your ideology? Wanna make a serious point or just play in the school yard? I said it--regarding your absurd, silly comparison of Farangs in Thailand to Muslim immigrants in the West. And you dodged it. Instead, you continue to post the most constipated prose I've yet read on this forum. "Discussant," heh, heh, heh. How old are you? Did somebody just give you a thesaurus for your 18th birthday? No way can you compare us immegrants here ,the same as you cannot compare Thai immegrants in say Britain ,there really are so few of us and we especially jump through hoops to stay ,like anything its ok in moderation ,but if all of a sudden millions of Christians from the west arrived in Thailand demanding that you adopt our laws ,there would be an outcry of hatred towards us i am sure just like there is in the west against Muslims ,we have been so tolerent but i fear that tide is rapidly turning. If you doubt Farangs are a remarkable minority in Thailand feel free to come to Pattaya and count heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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