12 dead in attack on Paris newspaper; France goes on alert

[micmichd]

@micmichd # 355

Capitalism is the freedom to sacrifice everything in the name of money.

Without "Arabic numbers" (Indian, in fact) you would not be able even to count your tea money. Left alone architecture, poetry etc.

You are really eaten up with socialism aren't you? And bringing out that old numbers canard ... that's the best you can do? Wow!

Yes.

I'm German, and I know both systems. And I've been in Asia for a long time.

[Farang two dot zero]

France is debating whether le front National should be invited or not

It's not the worries for now

[Farang two dot zero]

Radio organization Islamic state (ISIS) on Thursday called "heroes" the perpetrators of the attack against the newspaper Charlie Hebdo.

"The jihadist heroes killed twelve journalists and injured more than ten working in the newspaper Charlie Hebdo and that to avenge the Prophet Muhammad," said al Bayan Radio Bulletin of ISIS, which controls large swathes of territory Iraq and Syria.

[MrTee]

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

I would ask one question of the clueless Mr Jones, how many murders, bombings, rapes, death threats and no go zones does it take before you begin to suspect that your cherished 'Islamophobia' is nothing more than a rational conclusion regarding Islam based on a growing mountain of evidence.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

so when you asked Mr Jones your question what did he say?

[cookee68]

Will we see a Paris protest march against Islam rallies soon ?

It is more than a march that is needed, maybe the Muslims should march against their own, then maybe the hate for them will not be so bad, but they are cowards to say or do anything against their own out of fear, yet the good out number the bad, and remaining silent only helps the bad

cowards say hello:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/not-in-our-name-muslims-respond-in-revulsion-to-charlie-hebdo-shooting/?utm_content=bufferedea9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

the maniacs who carried out this appalling murder are not "their own" by the way.

Of course they are going to denounce it, that's all the Muslims ever do is denounce it, but they are still Muslims doing it in the name of Allah,

[Lissos]

Good article by Historian Tom Holland :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-30714702

Excerpts :

"It was the Salman Rushdie affair that served as the first symptom of this. Since then, like a dull toothache given to periodic flare-ups, the problem has never gone away. I myself had first-hand experience of just how intractable it can be in 2012, with a film I made for Channel 4. Islam: The Untold Story explored the gathering consensus among historians that much of what Muslims have traditionally believed about the life of Muhammad is unlikely to be strict historical fact - and it provoked a firestorm of death threats. Unlike Charlie Hebdo, I had not set out to give offence. I am no satirist, and I do not usually enjoy hurting people's feelings. Nevertheless, I too feel that some rights are worthy of being defended - and among them is the freedom of historians to question the origin myths of religions".

"Ecrasez l'infâme," Voltaire famously urged his admirers: "Crush what is infamous". Islam, too, makes the same demand. The point of difference, of course, is over how "l'infâme" is to be defined. To the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo, who in 2011 published an edition with a swivel-eyed Muhammad on the cover, just as earlier they had portrayed Jesus as a contestant on I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, and Pope Benedict holding aloft a condom at Mass, it is the pretensions of authority wherever they may be found - in politics quite as much as in religion" (emphasis with underlining, inserted by myself)

[Jingthing]

Cartoon that can be published anywhere:

http://www.newyorker.com/from-the-desk-of-bob-mankoff/cartoon-of-atonement

[Lukecan]

If ever you bother to study the Koran, if you bother to study the Hadith or carefully study the social life in an Islamic community or better still get the opinions of intelligent Muslims, you will come to realise, that the philosophy is so profoundly flawed, so incoherent, not just on issues around morality, but on plain logic, augmented by observable reality, that it has no place within an intelligent practical framework for living a life.

It is a badly cobbled together illogical and plagiarised pile of nonsense. It didn't even manage to plagiarise the good bits from other philosophies, only the really dumb bits.

If philosophies were expressed as motor vehicles - Islam would be a Trabant. Which is not entirely a fair judgement, because the Trabant was kind of cute.

Al religions are flawed, not just islam. What makes islam stand out is that it has a lot of serious followers. You got guys worshipping cows, weed etc etc. Don't expect religions to be logical.

Actually if you judged it from a logical point of view, Islam is more logical then most religions, but it still has its flaws.

What they have are followers who interpret the faith is such a way that it justifies killing non believers, Or haven't you noticed that, with what has been happening in Syria and Iraq. To even suggest that there is some logic in that is well ludicrous. There is not logic to a faith that can allow for the killing of fellow Muslims Just because one faction interprets something one way and another faction interprets it in completely the opposite way.

usually a person that has extreme beliefs is an outcast. Outcasts tend to do ridiculous things. School shootings, terror attack in norway, jihad attacks etc etc are all carried out by people people who can't integrate into the society. In todays era islam is the popular way of doing it, tomorrow another ideology will be used, but these attacks will never stop. There will always be schizophrenic people out there.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Lukecan

[cookee68]

I don't expect any attempt to respond to the substance of what I posted.

What exactly did you post besides numerous personal attacks?

Nothing really much to respond to. Just the usual "racist, bigot....blah blah..".

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Finally! A post I can reply to that doesn't need sifting through dozens of personal insults to work out what is being said.

The problem with using 'tolerance and diversity' to combat radical Islam is that it isnt going to work with an ideology that HATES tolerance and diversity. Especially tolerance.

Now we can all hold hands with 'moderate' muslims and sing Kumbaya, hoping the nasty guys in black will suddenly disappear into the woodwork. Reality attack needed. I don't think you can bargain with religious terrorists.

The suggestion that we (the host country) can win them over by "more tolerance, more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices" is something I find rather insulting. You seem to have things backward.

Sure, give them a fair shake, as they say, but it's up to the immigrants to adapt to the host culture. Not the other way round. Why should we change our culture to suit the immigrants? Just as Thailand shouldn't change to suit westerners.

Of course there will always be racism and discrimination but at least try to assimilate. From what I've seen in the UK, racism and discrimination has seriously lessened against immigrants from the West Indies, India and East Asia because they've tried to accept the host countries culture. And in return, the UK has grown and developed in a positive way, obviously there are still some problems but I see things improving.

This doesn't appear to be the case with Muslim immigrants which I believe to be down to the nature of Islam. Just see the Birmingham school takeovers and child grooming cases in Northern England as examples.

As for me 'owning the term Islamophobe', I have no problem with that, though I'd disagree with the 'phobia' part. Infidel is more accurate.

And I for one Sir agree with you

[Farang two dot zero]

[JDGRUEN]

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

I would ask one question of the clueless Mr Jones, how many murders, bombings, rapes, death threats and no go zones does it take before you begin to suspect that your cherished 'Islamophobia' is nothing more than a rational conclusion regarding Islam based on a growing mountain of evidence.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

**********

Corrections and additions:

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God Gods and Belief System (Multiculturalism - Diversity - Global Warming - Climate Change... Wealth Redistribution... Unlimited Government Benefits - Free Everything ... Innocent Immigrants - Rights of Open Migration - Open Borders.. Christianity Bad / Islam Good... Israel Bad - Palestenians Good that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

[Christie Paul]

If ever you bother to study the Koran, if you bother to study the Hadith or carefully study the social life in an Islamic community or better still get the opinions of intelligent Muslims, you will come to realise, that the philosophy is so profoundly flawed, so incoherent, not just on issues around morality, but on plain logic, augmented by observable reality, that it has no place within an intelligent practical framework for living a life.

It is a badly cobbled together illogical and plagiarised pile of nonsense. It didn't even manage to plagiarise the good bits from other philosophies, only the really dumb bits.

If philosophies were expressed as motor vehicles - Islam would be a Trabant. Which is not entirely a fair judgement, because the Trabant was kind of cute.

It doesnt matter that Westerners think it is a pile of cr@p.

It is what

Al Kebab

Al Quida

Boko Haram

ISIS

The Lone Wolves

And a whole host of subsidiary groups think.

They think that it is perfectly normal to kill, behead, rape, take slaves and every other atrocity that they can think of.

I also see it did not take long for the " Pen is mightier than the Sword " Brigade to start making an appearance.

The 1st time hot lead erupts around your feet, please let me know what colour of pen you scream for.

Time to take the gloves off and fight fire with fire.

Al Kebab = a delicious meal which originated in what is now called Lebanon.

Al Quida = I think you mean Al Queda - in Arabic its a slang word for toilet. Apparently founded by Bin Laden, whose brother funded the Bush family and is a board member of the Carlyle Group.

Boko Haram = an excuse to plunder.

ISIS = trained in Jordan and fully equipped and supplied by the US and led by a Mossad agent formerly known as Simon Elliott. Ask John McCain.

The Lone Wolves = that could be anyone. Ooops there go your freedoms.

Was there a point in there somewhere ?

The point is that you'd be fighting other people who are owned by the same people who own your mind. Not a huge asset, but all the same its' what you've got.

Which is why, you'd want to fire with fire, when the conventional and more effective approach is actually...water.

[MrTee]

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

I would ask one question of the clueless Mr Jones, how many murders, bombings, rapes, death threats and no go zones does it take before you begin to suspect that your cherished 'Islamophobia' is nothing more than a rational conclusion regarding Islam based on a growing mountain of evidence.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

**********

Corrections and additions:

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God Gods and Belief System (Multiculturalism - Diversity - Global Warming - Climate Change... Wealth Redistribution... Unlimited Government Benefits - Free Everything ... Innocent Immigrants - Rights of Open Migration - Open Borders.. Christianity Bad / Islam Good... Israel Bad - Palestenians Good that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

right I getcha.

Owen Jones is responsible for everything.. Glad I am in such deep thinking company on here

Thanks guys

[JDGRUEN]

@micmichd # 355

Capitalism is the freedom to sacrifice everything in the name of money.

Without "Arabic numbers" (Indian, in fact) you would not be able even to count your tea money. Left alone architecture, poetry etc.

You are really eaten up with socialism aren't you? And bringing out that old numbers canard ... that's the best you can do? Wow!

Yes.

I'm German, and I know both systems. And I've been in Asia for a long time.

And what country did you leave to emigrate to Germany?

[Steely Dan]

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

I would ask one question of the clueless Mr Jones, how many murders, bombings, rapes, death threats and no go zones does it take before you begin to suspect that your cherished 'Islamophobia' is nothing more than a rational conclusion regarding Islam based on a growing mountain of evidence.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

so when you asked Mr Jones your question what did he say?

I didn't wait for one, there are no liberal answers left.

[MrTee]

Owen Jones write s an interesting article on this on the guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norway-islamophobia-france-anders-breivik?CMP=twt_gu

I would ask one question of the clueless Mr Jones, how many murders, bombings, rapes, death threats and no go zones does it take before you begin to suspect that your cherished 'Islamophobia' is nothing more than a rational conclusion regarding Islam based on a growing mountain of evidence.

It's so funny to read liberals discussing what should be done when it is their political correctness, moral cowardice and obsession with their God (Multiculturalism) that is largely responsible for the mess we are in today.

so when you asked Mr Jones your question what did he say?

I didn't wait for one, there are no liberal answers left.

Don't be chicken - he is easily reachable - go put your question to him..

[aaacorp]

Just to make this clear for all of you who are already mixing Islam with Islamist :

The guys who died in France would have spit on your face for such comments.

The guys who died hated the kind of people who mixed a minority of a group to make the whole group look bad whatever the group is.

Yes they hated religion, yes they hated the islamists, as much as they hated the israelian settlers, as much as they hated the catholic church and its wealth and secrets about children abuses by their priest.

Charb, Cabu, Wolinski, Tignous and all the staff at the Charlie Hebdo were mostly ...be ready guys.... communists or far left winged and nothing, not even such carnage would have changed their way of living.

Oh and another thing, just remember YOU are the <deleted> foreigners here, and i can read a lot from you speaking about how the thais try daily to con farangs, to kill them or rob them, and still you re here.... just think of what may happen if one day two lunatics farang start to kill 12 people in Bangkok, how would you like them to react? understand the difference or just kick all of us from thailand?

Oh great our first apologist.

The guys who died in France would have spit on your face for such comments.

I wont insult them by saying gawd rest their souls.

Yes they hated religion, yes they hated the islamists, as much as they hated the israelian settlers, as much as they hated the catholic church and its wealth and secrets about children abuses by their priest.

As an atheist I agree with everything they said and printed.

just remember YOU are the f..ing foreigners here

Where is here?

You have no clue where I or other members are posting from.

Vive la difference, next time you clear customs in Jeddah or Riyadh, please make sure to have a bible or rosary beads at the top of your baggage.

Please let me know where in the land of the prophet wehre the followers of the religion of peace will allow my wife to pray at a temple of her chosing?

Charb, Cabu, Wolinski, Tignous and all the staff at the Charlie Hebdo were mostly ...be ready guys.... communists or far left winged

Please pray tell me why that makes them bad guys, sounds more like fellow travellers to me.

You should get down on your kness and pray to whatever diety you pray to, that these guys were allowed to express their views.

What do you suggest, Nth Korea, Saudi and Iran are nice this time of year.

If the above are too liberal for you, head of and join ISIS, I feel sure they will accomodate your view.

So i ll proceed the same way as you clearly didn t understand clearly :

Oh great our first apologist.

Apologist of what? certainly not apologize those who killed my childhood heroes, pine head?

Where is here?

You have no clue where I or other members are posting from.

I would say 80% from Thailand,.. this website is thaivisa, and basically speak about thailand so if you just want to play on the words, then yes, everywhere except your birth country still ok and applicable for the comments i made.

Vive la difference, next time you clear customs in Jeddah or Riyadh, please make sure to have a bible or rosary beads at the top of your baggage.

I m an atheist too so i think it s not really soon that i ll have religious sign on me

Please let me know where in the land of the prophet wehre the followers of the religion of peace will allow my wife to pray at a temple of her chosing?

Liban is one i have in mind, just be sure also to go in some suburbs of Jerusalem to see how you re will be welcomed, as well as some african catholic countries, Burma seems to have some quite nice buddhists too who really enjoy killings...

Please pray tell me why that makes them bad guys, sounds more like fellow travellers to me.

You should get down on your kness and pray to whatever diety you pray to, that these guys were allowed to express their views.

Their views are far better than the ones spitting on a whole community, which would had no place in Charlie Hebdo

Their political view is mentionned because of the ones saying they should have weapons on them like USA, and other bullshits like this...no, France won t allow weapons and is still far more secure than USA or other countries were weapons are allowed like, Thailand?

So i think you didn t understand a word of what i said and the fact that i m french, Cabu was my childhood hero, Wolinski gave me some quite hard ons when i was a pre teenager and Charb was the perfect guy to replace Vall at Charlie.

So...do you understand now, is it more clear?

[micmichd]

Lukean,

one advice:

Be careful with mental diagnoses, and don't use them on political dissidents.

Maybe some people could integrate into your society but simply don't want to.

[Fab5BKK]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

I don't know what is "farang values"..

Respect and decency are, for sure, parts of my values.

Obviously, you don't get it.

Your appreciated values are sacrosanct?

Then you will respect Thai women and their families at least as much as your women and families at home? Yes or No?

????

Are you on drugs????

[ggold]

If ever you bother to study the Koran, if you bother to study the Hadith or carefully study the social life in an Islamic community or better still get the opinions of intelligent Muslims, you will come to realise, that the philosophy is so profoundly flawed, so incoherent, not just on issues around morality, but on plain logic, augmented by observable reality, that it has no place within an intelligent practical framework for living a life.

It is a badly cobbled together illogical and plagiarised pile of nonsense. It didn't even manage to plagiarise the good bits from other philosophies, only the really dumb bits.

If philosophies were expressed as motor vehicles - Islam would be a Trabant. Which is not entirely a fair judgement, because the Trabant was kind of cute.

Al religions are flawed, not just islam. What makes islam stand out is that it has a lot of serious followers. You got guys worshipping cows, weed etc etc. Don't expect religions to be logical.

Actually if you judged it from a logical point of view, Islam is more logical then most religions, but it still has its flaws.

What they have are followers who interpret the faith is such a way that it justifies killing non believers, Or haven't you noticed that, with what has been happening in Syria and Iraq. To even suggest that there is some logic in that is well ludicrous. There is not logic to a faith that can allow for the killing of fellow Muslims Just because one faction interprets something one way and another faction interprets it in completely the opposite way.

usually a person that has extreme beliefs is an outcast. Outcasts tend to do ridiculous things. School shootings, terror attack in norway, jihad attacks etc etc are all carried out by people people who can't integrate into the society. In todays era islam is the popular way of doing it, tomorrow another ideology will be used, but these attacks will never stop. There will always be schizophrenic people out there.

OK so Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, ISIL, Boko Haram, etc are all outcasts? Who can't integrate with society? Yet they seem to have such an effect on the societies they live among. Almost to the point of dominating the religious beliefs of fellow Muslims and other faiths.

."In todays era Islam is the popular way of doing things" go tell that to the families of the victims of the above outcast missfits.

this wouldn't be dexterm using another handle by any chance?

[NeverSure]

took USA over 10 years to find Osama Bin Laden.. just saying.

But he wasn't in the US. He was hiding among and hidden by scum in a no man's land.

BTW when he was found he was killed as vermin and dumped into the ocean where no one could use his grave as a monument to him.

This was a hit and an execution by US Navy Seals.

The French and other EU countries will have to get such will and determination and wipe out this scum.

[JockPieandBeans]

this wouldn't be dexterm using another handle by any chance?

Rife on here

[MrTee]

took USA over 10 years to find Osama Bin Laden.. just saying.

But he wasn't in the US. He was hiding among and hidden by scum in a no man's land.

BTW when he was found he was killed as vermin and dumped into the ocean where no one could use his grave as a monument to him.

This was a hit and an execution by US Navy Seals.

The French and other EU countries will have to get such will and determination and wipe out this scum.

So they say..

so if France find their man(s) in the next 87620 hours, they'll be way ahead, showing great determination and courage.

Not forgetting it cost $75k per USA household to kill him like vermin..

My vermin bill was < $10

Edited January 8, 2015 by MrTee

[micmichd]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

I don't know what is "farang values"..

Respect and decency are, for sure, parts of my values.

Obviously, you don't get it.

Your appreciated values are sacrosanct?

Then you will respect Thai women and their families at least as much as your women and families at home? Yes or No?

????

Are you on drugs????

No.

[Morch]

Ok, being an internet forum, I can only take you at face value and on the basis of what you post. You say that you are not anti-immigrant but are anti-Islam. Very well, I will stop calling you anti-immigrant. However the bluntness of the way you express your position creates some doubt in me on this. I have seen you apply your position to non-whites in the US in other threads.

I too object to the ideology of islam and its inconsistency with western liberalism and humanism. I also object to other religions and am atheist. I try, however, to avoid stereotyping any person who may hold a belief or have some ethnicity or some gender identification with which I am uncomfortable or disagree.

I have signed many petitions on change.org. I do not agree with the petition you quote. I would sign a petition that called for the removal of tax exempt status of all religious and affiliated bodies including the scientologists and similar cults in the US.

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

I would totally agree with you but, What is the situation where those you are being tolerant to, refuse to be tolerant to you, and you're institutions, Laws and practices?

We set example and open dialogue so with time,they will learn.

Charb met the people who wanted to kill them before.

He told them : "Instead of trying to kill me because I make fun of you in my newspaper, why don't you create YOUR own paper and male fun of US?"

RIP Charb

But are they interested in the example set and the open dialogue offered?

[Tep]

I don't expect any attempt to respond to the substance of what I posted.

What exactly did you post besides numerous personal attacks?

Nothing really much to respond to. Just the usual "racist, bigot....blah blah..".

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Finally! A post I can reply to that doesn't need sifting through dozens of personal insults to work out what is being said.

The problem with using 'tolerance and diversity' to combat radical Islam is that it isnt going to work with an ideology that HATES tolerance and diversity. Especially tolerance.

Now we can all hold hands with 'moderate' muslims and sing Kumbaya, hoping the nasty guys in black will suddenly disappear into the woodwork. Reality attack needed. I don't think you can bargain with religious terrorists.

The suggestion that we (the host country) can win them over by "more tolerance, more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices" is something I find rather insulting. You seem to have things backward.

Sure, give them a fair shake, as they say, but it's up to the immigrants to adapt to the host culture. Not the other way round. Why should we change our culture to suit the immigrants? Just as Thailand shouldn't change to suit westerners.

Of course there will always be racism and discrimination but at least try to assimilate. From what I've seen in the UK, racism and discrimination has seriously lessened against immigrants from the West Indies, India and East Asia because they've tried to accept the host countries culture. And in return, the UK has grown and developed in a positive way, obviously there are still some problems but I see things improving.

This doesn't appear to be the case with Muslim immigrants which I believe to be down to the nature of Islam. Just see the Birmingham school takeovers and child grooming cases in Northern England as examples.

As for me 'owning the term Islamophobe', I have no problem with that, though I'd disagree with the 'phobia' part. Infidel is more accurate.

I have not regarded you as as serious discussant since your belligerence to me and other posters on the issue of the idiotic protest about religious attire in the Australian parliament some time back. You seem to want to post serious and thoughtful views, so I respond accordingly. I recall many posts in the past where I have said that I would do exactly this.

You mock my comments on tolerance with a standard and trite response. I based these on the Australian experience. Australia is a multicultural, immigrant country that respects diversity and benefits from it. You trivialise this but the Australian experience is based on real actions, real laws, real programs and real outcomes. You attempt to redefine my comments into your world view. I do not advocate tolerance for criminal activity by radical terrorists. That requires an altogether different type of response.

You are insulted by the notion of a call for non discriminatory institutions? You are insulted by the idea of respect and tolerance for diversity? What does a constant barrage of messages of hate and exclusion give to muslim immigrants trying to live their lives in their host country. What messages do this constant stereotyping send to young people trying to make their way as binationals? Talk about radicalisation. There is one cause for a start. Combine this with institutionalised prejudicial treatment from public services that should remain objective and non discriminatory, then you foster anger and hate. What's wrong in trying to avoid this?

Why should you change your culture for the sake of the immigrants? Who is saying this? Not me. I believe that cultures change as a result of immigration. Australia's has and for the better. That is not the same as saying the host culture should be required to change. All cultures change and evolve through many different causes. Your culture probably no longer exists, like mine as what we think of as our culture is probably some idealised picture of life in our childhood in the 60's or 70's or 80's or whenever. That is long gone and irretrievable. Australian culture is nothing like I grew up with. Modern Australian culture is fantastic, dynamic and robust. Most of it due to immigration.

Surprisingly I find your views on assimilation quite moderate and I tend to agree with your core point regarding the UK.

If you show no respect for your antagonist or willingness to understand their point of view, you will never hope to change their minds. Their children will change because of peer pressure as the host society will evolve. But if your starting point is that all Muslims are radical, won't change and are involved in a conspiracy to introduce ideologically toxic laws and practices, then there is no real chance of influencing them. The hysteria that you and others generate on this issue actively works against the possibility of change. It contributes to radicalisation and hatred. I do not like the Muslim religion or social practices but I would not stand in front of a Muslim person and berate them for this or berate them for not condemning their scriptures. I would surmise that a vast number of the 'ordinary' working muslim people living in western democracies understand and appreciate the values of western liberal democracies. I have little evidence of this and have seen yours and others posts of endless percentages but I think my supposition is worthy of further investigation and deliberation.

As you reject my views, I also reject many of the views that you post. I think you are immoderate and intemperate in your views and the way you express them. I will probably still speak out where I see you going after people unfairly for having different views to you. You clearly have a large group of people on TV who agree with what you say. I have posted elsewhere on what I think of that demographic and what it represents of a certain group of people here in Thailand .But some people also objected to such characterisations.

I repeat my theme that I do not think this thread is a place to discuss immigration or muslim immigration. I have posted a lot about my views on the abhorrent execution of the political cartoonists and other people in Paris. I am a committed liberal and that means a commitment to the idea of the principles of a liberal democracy such as free speech. I doubt we will agree on much but I do honour my earlier statements to you that I will give you back what you send out to me and if you have serious points to discuss I am happy to respond and share thoughts and experiences.

[Thai at Heart]

I don't expect any attempt to respond to the substance of what I posted.

What exactly did you post besides numerous personal attacks?

Nothing really much to respond to. Just the usual "racist, bigot....blah blah..".

You cannot suppress ideas, including horrible ideas as are many contained within Islam. Any attempt will backfire. Here is where we will continue to disagree because I believe we win by more tolerance, by more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices.

So I will stop calling your racist and anti-immigrant bigot but you probably need to own the term islamophobe. I will take you on face value but again, your tread is quite heavy and sometimes it is hard to distinguish things.

Finally! A post I can reply to that doesn't need sifting through dozens of personal insults to work out what is being said.

The problem with using 'tolerance and diversity' to combat radical Islam is that it isnt going to work with an ideology that HATES tolerance and diversity. Especially tolerance.

Now we can all hold hands with 'moderate' muslims and sing Kumbaya, hoping the nasty guys in black will suddenly disappear into the woodwork. Reality attack needed. I don't think you can bargain with religious terrorists.

The suggestion that we (the host country) can win them over by "more tolerance, more diversity, by objective and non discriminatory institutions, laws and practices" is something I find rather insulting. You seem to have things backward.

Sure, give them a fair shake, as they say, but it's up to the immigrants to adapt to the host culture. Not the other way round. Why should we change our culture to suit the immigrants? Just as Thailand shouldn't change to suit westerners.

Of course there will always be racism and discrimination but at least try to assimilate. From what I've seen in the UK, racism and discrimination has seriously lessened against immigrants from the West Indies, India and East Asia because they've tried to accept the host countries culture. And in return, the UK has grown and developed in a positive way, obviously there are still some problems but I see things improving.

This doesn't appear to be the case with Muslim immigrants which I believe to be down to the nature of Islam. Just see the Birmingham school takeovers and child grooming cases in Northern England as examples.

As for me 'owning the term Islamophobe', I have no problem with that, though I'd disagree with the 'phobia' part. Infidel is more accurate.

I have not regarded you as as serious discussant since your belligerence to me and other posters on the issue of the idiotic protest about religious attire in the Australian parliament some time back. You seem to want to post serious and thoughtful views, so I respond accordingly. I recall many posts in the past where I have said that I would do exactly this.

You mock my comments on tolerance with a standard and trite response. I based these on the Australian experience. Australia is a multicultural, immigrant country that respects diversity and benefits from it. You trivialise this but the Australian experience is based on real actions, real laws, real programs and real outcomes. You attempt to redefine my comments into your world view. I do not advocate tolerance for criminal activity by radical terrorists. That requires an altogether different type of response.

You are insulted by the notion of a call for non discriminatory institutions? You are insulted by the idea of respect and tolerance for diversity? What does a constant barrage of messages of hate and exclusion give to muslim immigrants trying to live their lives in their host country. What messages do this constant stereotyping send to young people trying to make their way as binationals? Talk about radicalisation. There is one cause for a start. Combine this with institutionalised prejudicial treatment from public services that should remain objective and non discriminatory, then you foster anger and hate. What's wrong in trying to avoid this?

Why should you change your culture for the sake of the immigrants? Who is saying this? Not me. I believe that cultures change as a result of immigration. Australia's has and for the better. That is not the same as saying the host culture should be required to change. All cultures change and evolve through many different causes. Your culture probably no longer exists, like mine as what we think of as our culture is probably some idealised picture of life in our childhood in the 60's or 70's or 80's or whenever. That is long gone and irretrievable. Australian culture is nothing like I grew up with. Modern Australian culture is fantastic, dynamic and robust. Most of it due to immigration.

Surprisingly I find your views on assimilation quite moderate and I tend to agree with your core point regarding the UK.

If you show no respect for your antagonist or willingness to understand their point of view, you will never hope to change their minds. Their children will change because of peer pressure as the host society will evolve. But if your starting point is that all Muslims are radical, won't change and are involved in a conspiracy to introduce ideologically toxic laws and practices, then there is no real chance of influencing them. The hysteria that you and others generate on this issue actively works against the possibility of change. It contributes to radicalisation and hatred. I do not like the Muslim religion or social practices but I would not stand in front of a Muslim person and berate them for this or berate them for not condemning their scriptures. I would surmise that a vast number of the 'ordinary' working muslim people living in western democracies understand and appreciate the values of western liberal democracies. I have little evidence of this and have seen yours and others posts of endless percentages but I think my supposition is worthy of further investigation and deliberation.

As you reject my views, I also reject many of the views that you post. I think you are immoderate and intemperate in your views and the way you express them. I will probably still speak out where I see you going after people unfairly for having different views to you. You clearly have a large group of people on TV who agree with what you say. I have posted elsewhere on what I think of that demographic and what it represents of a certain group of people here in Thailand .But some people also objected to such characterisations.

I repeat my theme that I do not think this thread is a place to discuss immigration or muslim immigration. I have posted a lot about my views on the abhorrent execution of the political cartoonists and other people in Paris. I am a committed liberal and that means a commitment to the idea of the principles of a liberal democracy such as free speech. I doubt we will agree on much but I do honour my earlier statements to you that I will give you back what you send out to me and if you have serious points to discuss I am happy to respond and share thoughts and experiences.

The statement that immigrants automatically improve a culture is extremely debateable.

The native culture may change but there is no absolute guarantee it will improve. Much if any improvement is purely down to luck.

[lannarebirth]

[Harsh Jones]

This was an operation. Whether 'wolf pack' related or directed is yet to be established. It had an objective. It was an attack on a pillar of western liberal democracy. Political satire is an integral part of western liberal democracies. Satirists prick egos. Satirists identify and alert us to tyranny, whether it is the tyranny of religious or other ideology. Western liberal democracies must learn from this and take precautions. They must also respond to the threat. The execution of creative, free thinking, active contributors to dynamic and beneficial political thought is abhor ant.

To glory in this event to support anti-immigrant bigotry is offensive. Your dancing around the remains of these slain artists to push your anti-immigrant bigotry is offensive. The way you spray your bile all over this thread attacking anyone who is not buying your ideological bigotry is offensive. Others have taken the opportunity to push a gun ownership agenda. This too is offensive and was shut down quickly.

You may call me apologist. The slur has no meaning. I apologise for nothing. I believe these executions were committed by muslim fighters as a direct result of the challenge the satirists posed to their muslim ideology. Even though this is not actually proven, I believe it is highly likely to be the case. Your hysteria is pointless. Your bigotry is obvious. Your bullying is offensive. Your appropriation of #jesuischarlie is shameful. You may return to hiding under your bed.

Here you go calling anyone who is pushing for immigration reform bigots. I married a woman who was on a work permit and facilitated her immigration to my home country. I am hardly anti immigration.

But maybe, just maybe we need to recognize that one part of the world cannot and will not assimilate with our societies ? So we have to amend our immigration policies ?

The anti-immigrants offer us what? The notion that this and other abhorrent events will not happen by closing the borders. What else do they offer? Vague references to 'final solution' type programs to deal with existing migrant populations or some nebulous thought control policing to identify ideologically unsuitable persons. The anti-immigrant bigotry is clear for all to see in these threads on Muslim related incidents. Happy to discuss immigration policy on a thread that does not degenerate into an anti-muslim slanging match. Happy to talk about the principles of assimilation, multiculturalism, economic refugees, cultural dynamism, economic benefits of migration, consequences of colonialism and imperialistic military ventures and all sorts of things. But not over the slain bodies of those executed for their political beliefs and actions.

Those of us in Thailand are immigrants. Yet many are rabid anti-immigrant. It comes from many sources including their bigotry. I do not call those who want immigration reform bigots. I call those who demand wholesale expulsion of a group of people and stereotypes these groups bigots. A generation ago it was Asians. Now it is Muslims. Who knows what group will be demonised in the next generation.

Also please review the posts of the person to whom I directed my comments. How can you have a rational discussion with that?

You just repeated yourself and enacted Godwins law with your "final solution" comment.

The first thing you have to drop is your cultural relativism. Contrary to your divine politically correct doctrine, not all cultures are equal. Some are more rational and civil then others.

Do you really think the world will grind to a halt if western Europe imposed a ban on all immigration from Islamic countries ?

Guess what.. It won't. And there will be less terror attacks because of it. Pretty simple stuff.

He who mentions Hitler first loses? I didn't mention the Nazis but used one of their terms. I wait for the anti immigrants to dispose what their plan is for existing migrant populations. In any case, I repeat myself because I don't believe this atrocity in Paris is an appropriate vehicle for anti-immigration discussions. I do not believe that is the appropriate response to this incident. I said I was happy to discuss immigration anywhere else. But not on this thread. It is offensive to the purpose of the lives of those slain in a political, paramilitary style operation inspired by religious hatred. Point to an immigration threat or another place and I will happily engage you there. In that venue I might also discuss my views on cultural relativism, a subject on which you cannot possibly know my views based on my posts in this thread. You are projecting on that.

I do not like that this event is hijacked by the anti-immigrant bigots and they glory in the event to push their agenda. All the 'told you so', all the lists of past atrocities. They do not honour the memories of those slain artists.

You mentioned Hitler first so in this case, you lose.

Supporting a ban on Islam immigration is not anti immigrant or bigotry. It is common sense in the light of what is happening. People like you stand in the way of meaningful reforms.

[Fab5BKK]

I'm clueless? but its you that doesn't understand why Muslims are offend by cartoons depicting their Prophet.

well played fella.

So they're offended. We understand perfectly. To be honest, our hard won freedoms trump their feelings of being offended. If it wasn't cartoons, it'd be something else. Gays, lack of Halal food, immodest dress etc. It'd never end.

This is the west, not some goat shagging shit hole in Pakistan. I'm offended by Islam but I don't grab an AK and visit a local mosque, do I?

The west isn't going to surrender their freedoms to the barrel of a gun not matter how many 'refugees' in the west celebrate the attack.

http://www.barenakedislam.com/2015/01/07/hundreds-of-muslims-in-sweden-celebrate-terrorist-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-in-france-shouting-islam-will-take-over-the-world/

Maybe not surrender to the barrel of a gun, but to a barrel of oil.

None of your Farang values counts anything anymore when it comes to money.

I don't know what is "farang values"..

Respect and decency are, for sure, parts of my values.

Obviously, you don't get it.

Your appreciated values are sacrosanct?

Then you will respect Thai women and their families at least as much as your women and families at home? Yes or No?

????

Are you on drugs????

No.

Even worst!

Edited January 8, 2015 by Fab5BKK