Condominiums in Chiang Mai

[1FinickyOne]

Any advice on buying appreciated… I would ideally like a pleasant building with rental possibilities.

What is the general trend on prices?

What are the best buildings for rental or resale?

How difficult is it to resell?

And if anyone has had a positive expereince with realtors, recommendations are welcome.

Is there a decent website to get some definitive feel for the market there?

Thanks.

[giibaht]

Some advice:

1) Go visit showrooms of the many condo projects currently launched. Use the pricing there to compare against asking prices in the secondary market. Most (newish) completed condo projects have balance units that you can view as well. Even if you don't buy from them, do visit them as they are your future competitors.

2) Hard to come out with general rules to apply to all condo investors. But if I have to come out with one, it is this: If you have to buy at all, only buy in central locations, and not outlying areas.

3) Condo prices had run up quite a lot over the past few years. Current prices are expensive. But doesn't mean they won't stay expensive or get more expensive.

4) What I hear is that it's a renters' market and will even become more so over time. I'm not sure how true that is I've not personally been looking to rent for quite a while.

5) Keep an eye on BKK condo market as well. Reason is that (again what I hear) BKKians had driven the mini condo boom here in CM. I hear BKK condo market is showing signs of strain, and there could be flow-on effects on CM condo market.

6) Enough of my hearsay. I know this for a fact: I was at "N condo" showroom (project is on Soi Sukasem in Nimman) recently. Asking prices starts from 88K psm, increase by 1k per flr, and costs 93K psm on 7th floor. Guess what? Condo will be completed in March this year, and almost 80% unsold. In my home country, that would be considered a disaster. The sales lady explained they haven't officially launched it yet

Happy hunting

Edited January 10, 2015 by giibaht

[Beng]

88K sounds quite expensive to me.

I paid 1,6 Mio Baht for a brand new 1 bed condo (38sqm) on the 1st floor.That equals 42K per sqm. Fully furnished, incl. TV, washing machine, microwave, 2 aircons and a fridge.

[giibaht]

88K sounds quite expensive to me.

I paid 1,6 Mio Baht for a brand new 1 bed condo (38sqm) on the 1st floor.That equals 42K per sqm. Fully furnished, incl. TV, washing machine, microwave, 2 aircons and a fridge.

You can't directly compare an outlying location to a central location like Nimman. That said, whether the location premium differential is reasonable or not is a different (and valid) question. Another consideration is the standard of finish/furnishing that comes with the unit, and the overall condo, which can vary quite a bit between different projects.

[Mousehound]

For what it is worth, I calculate the average of condos within three kilometres of CM centre (approx.) to be about 60k/sq meter. An average of about 2.5million Bht for 42sq meters. The factors that drive the scale up or down are, predicably, age, proximity, orientation, design and condition. Position, position, and position is usually the biggest factor. Then there is supply and demand and the usual economic ups and downs to consider. Factor into this the changing exchange rate. It's quite a juggling act.

Then there are personal situation factors: are you investing to rent or live. Do you intend to stay for xx years? After all if you intend to live in a place for a few years would you buy a place that you really don't like much but it was a good price? Or would it be better to pay a bit too much but get somewhere you really enjoy?

Investment wise the old saying that, "buy the cheapest house on the street" has some merit.

Oh, and one more factor is how well the condo is run. If there are condo management wars or if the common fees are too low or poorly managed, then a property will be affected.

If you get all this right but for some reason don't go through with things let me know. I'll buy the place myself!

[WorkingTourist]

Some advice:

[…]

4) What I hear is that it's a renters' market and will even become more so over time. I'm not sure how true that is I've not personally been looking to rent for quite a while.

Disclaimer: I recently bought a condo myself in CM (well, paid the reservation fee). That said, I agree with your advice and I think most new condos in CM are too expensive.

Though for whether or not it’s a renters’ market, I think this depends on what you want.

If you are fine with a renovated unit in an old building that has no view, then the market is over saturated.

The market for small condos might also soon be over saturated, i.e. when many of the new projects are finished.

But if you want something of decent size with a good location and nice view, then you need to look for a long time, and it doesn’t come cheap. There is definitely a (rental) market for these units, and this market is anything but saturated.

I got this somewhat confirmed by talking with someone who had a handful of good units he rented out, sure, he could be bullshitting me, but everything he said was consistent with my own findings, having followed the market for some time now.

Anyway, to sum it up, if you plan on buying an average condo then it’s probably better to rent. But if you want something really nice, then I think buying is the better choice, should you grow tired of it, it shouldn’t be a problem to rent it out or resell it.

And buying allows you all sorts of things that is problematic when renting, but will improve your day-to-day life, like having a dish washer

[giibaht]

Though for whether or not it’s a renters’ market, I think this depends on what you want.

But if you want something of decent size with a good location and nice view, then you need to look for a long time, and it doesn’t come cheap. There is definitely a (rental) market for these units, and this market is anything but saturated.

Anyway, to sum it up, if you plan on buying an average condo then it’s probably better to rent. But if you want something really nice, then I think buying is the better choice, should you grow tired of it, it shouldn’t be a problem to rent it out or resell it.

And buying allows you all sorts of things that is problematic when renting, but will improve your day-to-day life, like having a dish washer

Agree with your observations, esp. about average condos. Some people talk of condo units as though they are all the same when in fact they can be quite different. Even under poor market conditions, some good units will be snapped up (whether for sale or rent), while (most) others will sit empty. The trick is to reduce your risk by setting your bar high to begin with, and only buy good units (in central locations), or not buy at all.

[1FinickyOne]

Thanks all for good advice - a moment to clarify - I am not looking for a rental for myself, but if I had a unit, I would consider renting it. I live a few hours away and come into CM for visits - so, be it for investment purposes or personal usage, is still a 50/50 issue.

[northernjohn]

For what it is worth, I calculate the average of condos within three kilometres of CM centre (approx.) to be about 60k/sq meter. An average of about 2.5million Bht for 42sq meters. The factors that drive the scale up or down are, predicably, age, proximity, orientation, design and condition. Position, position, and position is usually the biggest factor. Then there is supply and demand and the usual economic ups and downs to consider. Factor into this the changing exchange rate. It's quite a juggling act.

Then there are personal situation factors: are you investing to rent or live. Do you intend to stay for xx years? After all if you intend to live in a place for a few years would you buy a place that you really don't like much but it was a good price? Or would it be better to pay a bit too much but get somewhere you really enjoy?

Investment wise the old saying that, "buy the cheapest house on the street" has some merit.

Oh, and one more factor is how well the condo is run. If there are condo management wars or if the common fees are too low or poorly managed, then a property will be affected.

If you get all this right but for some reason don't go through with things let me know. I'll buy the place myself!

I have no intention of buying. I would like and can afford a better residence.

The important thing to me is as you say location location location. I believe that should be the first thing to look at when you are seriously considering a purchase for your self.

If it is a rental well your location may not be as important as the price. Also no matter what check out the noise level and the potential for it to increase.

[Robert24]

I think you need to decide whether you want to do this purely as an investment, i.e. rent out the apartment or you want to buy it for yourself to live in it. And secondly you need to decide which part of the market you are interested in, low end market, middle part or high end. And with that you need to decide who do you want to rent out to, what drives an increase/decrease of demand in the target population for your place, i.e. from students, normal Thai workers who cannot afford their own place yet, to Asian and Western foreigners.

My sense is that there is a lot of supply in the market that is not used up, i.e. many places not rented out which drives rent down. So the key is really to have a very good location (for example near Nimman) if you do it for investment purposes. But then again your purchase price will be quite high. Overall I'm not sure whether you get more than 5% return on your investment.

Resell is quite hard, market is slow, so you will need time at hand if you want to resell. Also bear in mind if you look at prices of property over the last years, you see the prices are very high now, so you are not buying low, you are actually buying high. So if you look at actual property value, you need a long term view because it may well drop at some point before it goes up again.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

My pal bought 2 condos in CM 6 months back.

Both are unrented and unviewed.

80M2 purchase 1.2M

70M2 purchase 900k

Both were on sale for well over a year at much higher prices.

Be careful, lots of shills on TV.

Edited January 10, 2015 by AnotherOneAmerican

[JulieM]

The "N Condo" referred to above is only 70 meters or so from Nimmenhaemin itself, plus I suppose each unit comes witha parking space (they did build an underground garage.)

I've had friends look at the place as they heard it was a high quality build. I heard that the cheapest units were 4.5 million baht and that would put them at about 51 sq. meters according to the price per square meter suggested above.

Get a bit further away from Nimmenhaemin and prices fall pretty quickly.

[mascarabertha]

My pal bought 2 condos in CM 6 months back.

Both are unrented and unviewed.

80M2 purchase 1.2M

70M2 purchase 900k

Both were on sale for well over a year at much higher prices.

Be careful, lots of shills on TV.

did he buy them both for investment? that's pretty cheap for decent size apartments. What is the location? Are they renovated? Are his rental prices appropriate? Often times amateurs and undercapitalised investors get washed out quickly which seems to be the case here.

It sounds like he went on a bargain basement shopping spree without a real plan

[AnotherOneAmerican]

My pal bought 2 condos in CM 6 months back.

Both are unrented and unviewed.

80M2 purchase 1.2M

70M2 purchase 900k

Both were on sale for well over a year at much higher prices.

Be careful, lots of shills on TV.

did he buy them both for investment? that's pretty cheap for decent size apartments. What is the location? Are they renovated? Are his rental prices appropriate? Often times amateurs and undercapitalised investors get washed out quickly which seems to be the case here.

It sounds like he went on a bargain basement shopping spree without a real plan

Problem is, not many foreigners around looking for rental property.

They would be OK if rented at Thai prices to Thais.

If it were me, 4k for the small one and 7k for the big one.

(they are near Tesco superhighway supermarket)

[beau thai]

pm sent

[WorkingTourist]

My pal bought 2 condos in CM 6 months back.

Both are unrented and unviewed.

80M2 purchase 1.2M

70M2 purchase 900k

Both were on sale for well over a year at much higher prices.

Be careful, lots of shills on TV.

did he buy them both for investment? that's pretty cheap for decent size apartments. What is the location? Are they renovated? Are his rental prices appropriate? Often times amateurs and undercapitalised investors get washed out quickly which seems to be the case here.

It sounds like he went on a bargain basement shopping spree without a real plan

Cheap indeed! I saw a condo in SR Complex which was a 60 sqm. corner unit on 7th floor so one side had sort of a view, the other side was facing the neighboring building. The asking price was 880,000 THB.

The condo itself needed a total renovation; there were pigeons living in the bathtubs and the entrance door couldn’t close.

I was actually keen on buying the unit (and do the renovation), since nothing I had seen was really up to spec with what I am used to from the west, so I figured for this price it was worth trying to make something out of it myself and could be a fun project, but 60 sqm. is a bit too small and I was unable to obtain any sort of financial report for the building, minutes from last annual meeting of the owners, etc. and with the building in dire need of maintenance/repair, it would be nice to know if there is a (realistic) plan to do something about it.

Mainly though my plans changed because I finally found a unit that I think is perfect for me…

Anyway, I would love to get some more details about the two units for ~1M — if you can’t reveal the building, maybe the area they are in? and how old the building is?

Btw: For condos in the Nimmanhaemin area, am I really the only one bothered by loud planes flying above that area at least hourly? I was out there today, I rarely have a reason to go out there, but today I had, and sure enough, planes so loud that I had to pause my phone conversation…

[JulieM]

The commercial airplanes are indeed a small problem around Nimmen but you get use to it. Today was very different and much louder than normal due to a lot of air force jets flying around the area. That happens about 10x per year, I would say. Rough estimate.

[WorkingTourist]

The commercial airplanes are indeed a small problem around Nimmen but you get use to it. Today was very different and much louder than normal due to a lot of air force jets flying around the area. That happens about 10x per year, I would say. Rough estimate.

I rented a condo out there for 6 months, never got used to it and I think the military jets was more like a weekly thing, at least ~1 year ago, and there would often be 2-3 jets in a row.

Edit: Just asked my girlfriend and she also remembers the military planes as at least weekly if not more often. I guess there is a log somewhere that could be used to get the exact number of departures.

Edited January 10, 2015 by WorkingTourist

[monkey dog]

And buying allows you all sorts of things that is problematic when renting, but will improve your day-to-day life, like having a dish washer

you own dishes! i though that was only for the paupers yet you are telling us about high end.

[giibaht]

The commercial airplanes are indeed a small problem around Nimmen but you get use to it. Today was very different and much louder than normal due to a lot of air force jets flying around the area. That happens about 10x per year, I would say. Rough estimate.

I rented a condo out there for 6 months, never got used to it and I think the military jets was more like a weekly thing, at least ~1 year ago, and there would often be 2-3 jets in a row.

Edit: Just asked my girlfriend and she also remembers the military planes as at least weekly if not more often. I guess there is a log somewhere that could be used to get the exact number of departures.

I live further up from Nimman, and I wasn't too bothered before because flights were not so frequent and I don't recall being awakened during my sleep. Nowadays, however, I'm starting to get bothered by the increased frequency of flights, esp those just after midnight, or 5ish in the morning. I believe these are regular flights as I notice the pattern.

[giibaht]

The "N Condo" referred to above is only 70 meters or so from Nimmenhaemin itself, plus I suppose each unit comes witha parking space (they did build an underground garage.)

I've had friends look at the place as they heard it was a high quality build. I heard that the cheapest units were 4.5 million baht and that would put them at about 51 sq. meters according to the price per square meter suggested above.

Get a bit further away from Nimmenhaemin and prices fall pretty quickly.

Yes, the build quality (of showroom) is better than most and unit sizes start from 50sm. Certainly much better than Play, which is just a mid-range condo, but balance units is asking 86-92K psm. I suspect most units there were sold shortly after project launch at cheaper prices. The sales person kindly advised me that asking prices will be raised early this year.

Would be nice if anybody has an estimate of how much it cost to furnish up a small apartment (per psm) similar to all these new Nimman condos.

[JulieM]

The commercial airplanes are indeed a small problem around Nimmen but you get use to it. Today was very different and much louder than normal due to a lot of air force jets flying around the area. That happens about 10x per year, I would say. Rough estimate.

I rented a condo out there for 6 months, never got used to it and I think the military jets was more like a weekly thing, at least ~1 year ago, and there would often be 2-3 jets in a row.

Edit: Just asked my girlfriend and she also remembers the military planes as at least weekly if not more often. I guess there is a log somewhere that could be used to get the exact number of departures.

No, I live at Nimmen. Nothing like weekly activity from the military jets.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Another thing is that as there are more flights, a lot more flights are forced to take off in a Northern direction, so over the Nimmanhaemin area. (So they avoid taking off in the direction of incoming flights from the South.)

[giibaht]

Another thing is that as there are more flights, a lot more flights are forced to take off in a Northern direction, so over the Nimmanhaemin area. (So they avoid taking off in the direction of incoming flights from the South.)

I also suspect there are more long-haul flights using bigger planes which generates much louder noises on take off.

[Happyman108]

And in Apr onward airport operate 24 hours........more noise to Nimman area?

Nimman is close to city and night life is good, but price and traffic getting higher as well. Looking into the new CBP area with lot of shop house almost ready and Platinum mall opening this year, not sure it's going to be the next good location with easy access to super highway??

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/700968-chiang-mai-airport-expanding-to-24-hour-operation-in-april/

[mesquite]

Some advice:

1) Go visit showrooms of the many condo projects currently launched. Use the pricing there to compare against asking prices in the secondary market. Most (newish) completed condo projects have balance units that you can view as well. Even if you don't buy from them, do visit them as they are your future competitors.

2) Hard to come out with general rules to apply to all condo investors. But if I have to come out with one, it is this: If you have to buy at all, only buy in central locations, and not outlying areas.

3) Condo prices had run up quite a lot over the past few years. Current prices are expensive. But doesn't mean they won't stay expensive or get more expensive.

4) What I hear is that it's a renters' market and will even become more so over time. I'm not sure how true that is I've not personally been looking to rent for quite a while.

5) Keep an eye on BKK condo market as well. Reason is that (again what I hear) BKKians had driven the mini condo boom here in CM. I hear BKK condo market is showing signs of strain, and there could be flow-on effects on CM condo market.

6) Enough of my hearsay. I know this for a fact: I was at "N condo" showroom (project is on Soi Sukasem in Nimman) recently. Asking prices starts from 88K psm, increase by 1k per flr, and costs 93K psm on 7th floor. Guess what? Condo will be completed in March this year, and almost 80% unsold. In my home country, that would be considered a disaster. The sales lady explained they haven't officially launched it yet

Happy hunting

I've rented here in CM for twelve years and it's been a renters' market all that time. Back when I arrived, you could rent a house just outside of town for $100 US per month. Just recently a friend of mine rented a small house just outside of town for 3000 THB per month.

So we're talking $100 per month if you look around. $100 gets you lunch for two at the Inner Harbor in Baltimore. Not much money really.

Plus there's the way you're treated. I've rented condos and rooms here and the landlords did their best to make me happy. That definitely does not occur when it's not a renters' market. Condo owners here are constantly dealing with the management of the condo and the associated fees and ripoffs.

Things can change on a dime, though. In the US I was renting when overnight it became a sellers' market for condos and rents also went up rapidly. I then bought, but it was hard going for a while as prices skyrocketed. A typical situation was 10 offers on a unit, most over the asking price, everyone pre-qualified.

Best of luck to all.

Edited January 10, 2015 by mesquite

[mascarabertha]

Some advice:

1) Go visit showrooms of the many condo projects currently launched. Use the pricing there to compare against asking prices in the secondary market. Most (newish) completed condo projects have balance units that you can view as well. Even if you don't buy from them, do visit them as they are your future competitors.

2) Hard to come out with general rules to apply to all condo investors. But if I have to come out with one, it is this: If you have to buy at all, only buy in central locations, and not outlying areas.

3) Condo prices had run up quite a lot over the past few years. Current prices are expensive. But doesn't mean they won't stay expensive or get more expensive.

4) What I hear is that it's a renters' market and will even become more so over time. I'm not sure how true that is I've not personally been looking to rent for quite a while.

5) Keep an eye on BKK condo market as well. Reason is that (again what I hear) BKKians had driven the mini condo boom here in CM. I hear BKK condo market is showing signs of strain, and there could be flow-on effects on CM condo market.

6) Enough of my hearsay. I know this for a fact: I was at "N condo" showroom (project is on Soi Sukasem in Nimman) recently. Asking prices starts from 88K psm, increase by 1k per flr, and costs 93K psm on 7th floor. Guess what? Condo will be completed in March this year, and almost 80% unsold. In my home country, that would be considered a disaster. The sales lady explained they haven't officially launched it yet

Happy hunting

I've rented here in CM for twelve years and it's been a renters' market all that time. Back when I arrived, you could rent a house just outside of town for $100 US per month. Just recently a friend of mine rented a small house just outside of town for 3000 THB per month.

So we're talking $100 per month if you look around. $100 gets you lunch for two at the Inner Harbor in Baltimore. Not much money really.

Plus there's the way you're treated. I've rented condos and rooms here and the landlords did their best to make me happy. That definitely does not occur when it's not a renters' market. Condo owners here are constantly dealing with the management of the condo and the associated fees and ripoffs.

Things can change on a dime, though. In the US I was renting when overnight it became a sellers' market for condos and rents also went up rapidly. I then bought, but it was hard going for a while as prices skyrocketed. A typical situation was 10 offers on a unit, most over the asking price, everyone pre-qualified.

Best of luck to all.

Are you saying that when it's not a renters market the landlords "definitely" do not try to please their tenants?? Thats a rather sweeping statement and an untrue statement as well.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

The commercial airplanes are indeed a small problem around Nimmen but you get use to it. Today was very different and much louder than normal due to a lot of air force jets flying around the area. That happens about 10x per year, I would say. Rough estimate.

I rented a condo out there for 6 months, never got used to it and I think the military jets was more like a weekly thing, at least ~1 year ago, and there would often be 2-3 jets in a row.

Edit: Just asked my girlfriend and she also remembers the military planes as at least weekly if not more often. I guess there is a log somewhere that could be used to get the exact number of departures.

CM airport runs 24/7 starting August 2015.

Look forward to flights all through the night.

[mesquite]

Some advice:

1) Go visit showrooms of the many condo projects currently launched. Use the pricing there to compare against asking prices in the secondary market. Most (newish) completed condo projects have balance units that you can view as well. Even if you don't buy from them, do visit them as they are your future competitors.

2) Hard to come out with general rules to apply to all condo investors. But if I have to come out with one, it is this: If you have to buy at all, only buy in central locations, and not outlying areas.

3) Condo prices had run up quite a lot over the past few years. Current prices are expensive. But doesn't mean they won't stay expensive or get more expensive.

4) What I hear is that it's a renters' market and will even become more so over time. I'm not sure how true that is I've not personally been looking to rent for quite a while.

5) Keep an eye on BKK condo market as well. Reason is that (again what I hear) BKKians had driven the mini condo boom here in CM. I hear BKK condo market is showing signs of strain, and there could be flow-on effects on CM condo market.

6) Enough of my hearsay. I know this for a fact: I was at "N condo" showroom (project is on Soi Sukasem in Nimman) recently. Asking prices starts from 88K psm, increase by 1k per flr, and costs 93K psm on 7th floor. Guess what? Condo will be completed in March this year, and almost 80% unsold. In my home country, that would be considered a disaster. The sales lady explained they haven't officially launched it yet

Happy hunting

I've rented here in CM for twelve years and it's been a renters' market all that time. Back when I arrived, you could rent a house just outside of town for $100 US per month. Just recently a friend of mine rented a small house just outside of town for 3000 THB per month.

So we're talking $100 per month if you look around. $100 gets you lunch for two at the Inner Harbor in Baltimore. Not much money really.

Plus there's the way you're treated. I've rented condos and rooms here and the landlords did their best to make me happy. That definitely does not occur when it's not a renters' market. Condo owners here are constantly dealing with the management of the condo and the associated fees and ripoffs.

Things can change on a dime, though. In the US I was renting when overnight it became a sellers' market for condos and rents also went up rapidly. I then bought, but it was hard going for a while as prices skyrocketed. A typical situation was 10 offers on a unit, most over the asking price, everyone pre-qualified.

Best of luck to all.

Are you saying that when it's not a renters market the landlords "definitely" do not try to please their tenants?? Thats a rather sweeping statement and an untrue statement as well.

Yes, that's been my experience in the US.

[mascarabertha]

Some advice:

1) Go visit showrooms of the many condo projects currently launched. Use the pricing there to compare against asking prices in the secondary market. Most (newish) completed condo projects have balance units that you can view as well. Even if you don't buy from them, do visit them as they are your future competitors.

2) Hard to come out with general rules to apply to all condo investors. But if I have to come out with one, it is this: If you have to buy at all, only buy in central locations, and not outlying areas.

3) Condo prices had run up quite a lot over the past few years. Current prices are expensive. But doesn't mean they won't stay expensive or get more expensive.

4) What I hear is that it's a renters' market and will even become more so over time. I'm not sure how true that is I've not personally been looking to rent for quite a while.

5) Keep an eye on BKK condo market as well. Reason is that (again what I hear) BKKians had driven the mini condo boom here in CM. I hear BKK condo market is showing signs of strain, and there could be flow-on effects on CM condo market.

6) Enough of my hearsay. I know this for a fact: I was at "N condo" showroom (project is on Soi Sukasem in Nimman) recently. Asking prices starts from 88K psm, increase by 1k per flr, and costs 93K psm on 7th floor. Guess what? Condo will be completed in March this year, and almost 80% unsold. In my home country, that would be considered a disaster. The sales lady explained they haven't officially launched it yet

Happy hunting

I've rented here in CM for twelve years and it's been a renters' market all that time. Back when I arrived, you could rent a house just outside of town for $100 US per month. Just recently a friend of mine rented a small house just outside of town for 3000 THB per month.

So we're talking $100 per month if you look around. $100 gets you lunch for two at the Inner Harbor in Baltimore. Not much money really.

Plus there's the way you're treated. I've rented condos and rooms here and the landlords did their best to make me happy. That definitely does not occur when it's not a renters' market. Condo owners here are constantly dealing with the management of the condo and the associated fees and ripoffs.

Things can change on a dime, though. In the US I was renting when overnight it became a sellers' market for condos and rents also went up rapidly. I then bought, but it was hard going for a while as prices skyrocketed. A typical situation was 10 offers on a unit, most over the asking price, everyone pre-qualified.

Best of luck to all.

Are you saying that when it's not a renters market the landlords "definitely" do not try to please their tenants?? Thats a rather sweeping statement and an untrue statement as well.

Yes, that's been my experience in the US.

I've rented condos and rooms here and the landlords did their best to make me happy. That definitely does not occur when it's not a renters' market. is what you said.