Thai editorial: Beware of Chinese bearing 'gifts'

[webfact]

EDITORIAL
Beware of Chinese bearing 'gifts'
The Nation

The China-backed railway project offers many benefits for Thailand, but there are dangers too

BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on how to deal with China over development projects.

Thailand and China have signed a memorandum of understanding for joint construction of a rail link from Nong Khai to Bangkok and Map Ta Phut on the eastern seaboard. China will provide financial and technical support for the project.

The Transport Ministry will this month begin work on a feasibility study and the design of the network with its Chinese counterpart.

Asking for China's help in developing infrastructure is not a mistake, but the host country must have a strong strategy for investment and development if any joint project is to succeed.

Countries in this region have much experience in dealing with Chinese project developers, and not all of it has yielded good results.

Last week Vietnam publicly reprimanded a Chinese rail company over accidents on a key elevated railway construction project in the capital, Hanoi. Vietnam's transport minister Dinh La Thang was pictured jabbing his finger and shouting at a representative of the China Railway Sixth Group, during television news report of a meeting.

"Each time an accident happens, you accept responsibility, but things have not changed," he said. "This time, even if you use the excuse that we have loaned the money [for the project from China], I can ask our government to replace you. We cannot trade [Chinese] loans for Vietnamese lives."

Thang's loss of patience came after a scaffolding collapse nearly killed a taxi driver and his passengers, and a month after an incident involving a crane left one person dead.

The project to build Hanoi's first urban railway, with a preferential loan from the Chinese government, has faced repeated delays that have cost Vietnam approximately $300 million in total, according to the Voice of America.

More warning signs flashed in Myanmar last month when a 56-year-old woman was shot dead and others injured during a protest against a Chinese-run copper mine. The dispute between local residents and the Chinese enterprise is a long-running one, and Myanmar authorities seem powerless to resolve it.

Angry locals say thousands of acres their land has been confiscated to make way for the Letpadaung mine in Monywa, about 100 kilometres west of Mandalay. In November 2012, more than 100 protesters, including at least 67 monks, were injured in a violent crackdown by riot police at the mine.

Chinese enterprises - both state-run and private - have been involved in large foreign development projects for many years, but their social and environmental practices are not internationally accepted.

Often complicating things further are the host country's bilateral relations with China. In the case of Vietnam, ties between Hanoi and Beijing are currently strained by a territorial conflict in the South China Sea. Anti-Chinese sentiment came to the boil last year amid a stand-off over a Chinese oil rig in disputed waters. Vietnamese protesters rioted and damaged Chinese-owned businesses across Vietnam.

In this climate of tension, the Vietnamese government and public have little patience for "irregularities" in domestic projects backed by the Chinese.

The case of Myanmar is a little different, as leaders in Nay Pyi Taw remain politically and economically reliant on Beijing. The so-called reform era ushered in by Thein Sein's government has not yet steered Myanmar far away from Chinese influence. Though President Thein Sein suspended the $3.6-billion, Chinese-backed Myitsone Dam project in 2011, similar projects are going ahead, and several face protests from local residents that the authorities are as yet unable to resolve.

The Thai government can avoid the pitfalls of China-backed projects, but only if it learns from the experience of its regional neighbours and finds ways solve the obstacles posed by Chinese investment .

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Beware-of-Chinese-bearing-gifts-30251743.html


-- The Nation 2015-01-13

[Bluespunk]

Long spoons, gentlemen, long spoons.

[NongKhaiKid]

This headline should be for the govt not the public.

[ExPratt]

Yep , get ready for it. If you think Thai safety is bad , which it is , The Chinese will take it down to a whole new level.

This is where all this "Finish in 2 years" nonsense becomes dangerous , they will use the schedule completion date to ride roughshod over Safety and Quality regulations. They do it in their own country , they will do it here

[SiSePuede419]

Schedule, Cost, Quality.

If you want to meet Schedule for low cost, Quality will suffer.

It's basic Project Management...

[SinCityGr8One]

Nobody get anything for nothing no matter who or what you are. The Chinese analyze and plan things years or decades ahead.

The majority of Thai's struggle to remember what happened yesterday. My best advice to the Kingdom is, "Beware a Wolf in Sheep's Clothing".

[hanuman2543]

Thailand, be careful what you wish for.

[ChrisY1]

The Chinese did a fantastic job building the Tibet railway..........but hundreds (~1600) of their workers, mainly military personnel, died on the project.

They have very poor safety standards.....massive road tolls......shoddy and cheap electrical and other consumer goods....faking everything possible almost.....but with the promises of "cheap" money....which often means rewards for the select few....is in part, the reason they are able get a foothold in developing nations.

[NongKhaiKid]

Yep , get ready for it. If you think Thai safety is bad , which it is , The Chinese will take it down to a whole new level.

This is where all this "Finish in 2 years" nonsense becomes dangerous , they will use the schedule completion date to ride roughshod over Safety and Quality regulations. They do it in their own country , they will do it here

I seem to remember a senior official in the Chinese Ministry of Transport was in serious trouble over corruption and poor safety standards in their high speed network.

Now LoS will get a combination of Chinese and Thai standards.

[Somtamnication]

Lets not forget the Chinese and their large projects in Africa. A constant reminder of how they will treat you once they have you by the balls.

[shirtless]

I feel this deal will benefit China more than Thailand Politicians please read the fine print

[squarethecircle]

Yep , get ready for it. If you think Thai safety is bad , which it is , The Chinese will take it down to a whole new level.

This is where all this "Finish in 2 years" nonsense becomes dangerous , they will use the schedule completion date to ride roughshod over Safety and Quality regulations. They do it in their own country , they will do it here

I have the opposite experience. The train system in China is very well maintained and if they get the same build it will be a step up. What needs to be watched out for is sneaky Chinese ways, and no I'm not being racist there is in fact a phrase for this in Chinese I think it is the same word as "ghost" ie: gui 鬼, some of them have ulterior motives in SE Asia and see SE Asians as an inferior race, ripe to be exploited. Take what's good from them then send them back to China (the "bad" ones at least).

[tomacht8]

Cheap and bad copies of everything.
Chinese products break down quickly and are good for nothing.
Just my personal experience with chinese tools, household appliances, electronic goods, etc.
Who buys cheap get cheap, and usually buys two times.
And never buy crap on credit!

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Yep , get ready for it. If you think Thai safety is bad , which it is , The Chinese will take it down to a whole new level.

This is where all this "Finish in 2 years" nonsense becomes dangerous , they will use the schedule completion date to ride roughshod over Safety and Quality regulations. They do it in their own country , they will do it here

I have the opposite experience. The train system in China is very well maintained and if they get the same build it will be a step up. What needs to be watched out for is sneaky Chinese ways, and no I'm not being racist there is in fact a phrase for this in Chinese I think it is the same word as "ghost" ie: gui 鬼, some of them have ulterior motives in SE Asia and see SE Asians as an inferior race, ripe to be exploited. Take what's good from them then send them back to China (the "bad" ones at least).

It may be maintained but the quality of the build was poor , believe me I have first hand experience of it. What will find with many of the PDLs is the design speed cannot be achieved or maintained over any distance due to the poor quality of the construction , in some cases the line speed is designed at 380 and has been restricted to 240. There is also the question of Durability , the contract life time if 90 years

I put some Pictures of Chinese High speed "Quality " on a thread yesterday , maybe have a look. Not disputing their maintenance endeavors , high speed has low maintenance components so they should not have to do much

[ExPratt]

A couple of pictures from reports I wrote

Firstly , absolutely no PPE or safety equipment. Secondly you should not be concreting High speed track slab during the day, Look at the thickness of the slab in second picture ,Thickness should be 300mm. Ive got loads of these , it used to be my job to make sure they built properly ,which they didn't

casting 2.docx

casting 3.docx

[yellowboat]

Politicians and moguls in both countries have trouble with phrase "cost effective". Worked on a large shopping mall project in China. The biggest egos in the country were involved. Lots of trouble with leaky roofs and workmenship. Had the opening been delayed by 60 days all would have been fine.

Found the Chinese subcontractors and the indivdua workersl posessed far more wisdom and professionalism than the moguls and politcos (in and outside of China). If you wish to manage such a huge undertaking, pay great attention to the lowliest of workers.

[Anthony5]

If one takes a look what's going on in Africa with the Chinese, they should know enough.

[clokwise]

Projects like this one and others around the region are not only of economic benefit to China, but political. And they are thinking long term. China is gearing up to take complete control of the South China Sea. When they have every nation in the region by the balls (via huge infrastructure deals and investments) do you think those nations are going to speak out against China? They dare not, and they won't. Game over, China wins.

Edited January 13, 2015 by clokwise

[DKUNPUTAF713]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

[thesetat2013]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

You quote an interesting part of this article. Many times since the coup have I read how Thailand doesn't need or want ideas or help from non-thais. So what makes this writer think that Thais would learn something from those countries? Especially when thais also think they are inferior to those countries.

[ChrisY1]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

You quote an interesting part of this article. Many times since the coup have I read how Thailand doesn't need or want ideas or help from non-thais. So what makes this writer think that Thais would learn something from those countries? Especially when thais also think they are inferior to those countries.

Chinese Thais think the world of them.......after all..that's where their heritage is.

[thesetat2013]

"BANGKOK: -- Recent incidents in Myanmar and Vietnam offer lessons for the Thai government JUNTA under Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha on.........."

Let's do some editing here and get NATION to do a better job of reporting the facts!

Yes, I am a stickler when reading news articles and see incorrect information being splashed on the internet!

You quote an interesting part of this article. Many times since the coup have I read how Thailand doesn't need or want ideas or help from non-thais. So what makes this writer think that Thais would learn something from those countries? Especially when thais also think they are inferior to those countries.

Chinese Thais think the world of them.......after all..that's where their heritage is.

I meant they think they are inferior to Vietnam and Burma and Cambodia and other nearby Asian countries

[aussieinthailand]

So anyone have "FACTS and FIGURES In Baht, of the cost of the trains and X klm's rail lines and number of stations quoted by the last government and the current power?

Also, is their a little chest nut I had heard that the Chinese want control of land around stations so they can have businesses set up there for X years?

would be very interesting to compere apples with apples.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

So anyone have "FACTS and FIGURES In Baht, of the cost of the trains and X klm's rail lines and number of stations quoted by the last government and the current power?

Also, is their a little chest nut I had heard that the Chinese want control of land around stations so they can have businesses set up there for X years?

would be very interesting to compere apples with apples.

The have not done a feasibility study yet. That will be the game with Station locations, plant them outside of the actual town they are serving and buy up the land plots aroundit

[SinCityGr8One]

A couple of pictures from reports I wrote

Firstly , absolutely no PPE or safety equipment. Secondly you should not be concreting High speed track slab during the day, Look at the thickness of the slab in second picture ,Thickness should be 300mm. Ive got loads of these , it used to be my job to make sure they built properly ,which they didn't

casting 2.docx

casting 3.docx

You have provided interesting and detailed observations regarding the lack of Hard hats, Goggles, Rubber gloves on the concrete crew. Totally agree with you, regarding them not doing a big pour at night, when temps are cooler and the mud won't set too fast. Critical procedures must be maintained throughout the construction period, for safely operating the high speed rail line. Failure is not an option. I wonder if there were any Inspectors on the Job site? For taking samples of mud from every transit mixer arriving on the job. Checking the batch time on the delivery tickets, doing a slump test from each load, taking core samples, checking the mud's temperature, noting ambient temperature, having spray bars turned on the waiting Transit Mixer's drum to keep their loads cool. I wonder if they had used chilled water or dropped ice cubes into the mix while batching at the plant? Concrete has a life span of 90 minutes from the batch time on the ticket. I wonder if any trucks exceeded that time and the loads were rejected. Oh you know, just the important things in regards to building anything with concrete. At least they were using vibrators during the construction and not tamping with shovels or hammers!

[mikiea]

This headline should be for the govt not the public.

good god how do you manage to breath & stay alive ? :-)

[mikiea]

Schedule, Cost, Quality.

If you want to meet Schedule for low cost, Quality will suffer.

It's basic Project Management...

if you climb in bed with a lice covered flea infected carrior of all known STD'S, then you cannot complain when lil jimmy falls off :-)

[ExPratt]

We worked as Technical support for MOR, and training/construction consultation for high speed track slab. Basically we wrote reports on every site we visited and because of the schedule MOR chose to pay lip service to them but not take any action.

Also casting track slab in the day time is a no no because the rails expand in the heat and drag the sleepers in the concrete making voids between concrete and sleeper

This picture may raise a smile , Broken Bearers in the track slab, they are supposed to be cut out in 3 s due to rebar length,using flaw saw, the old concrete scabbled and treated to prevent cold joints and the new bearers installed with new rebar, but they done this instead and just jammed a new bearer in there

china breakout.docx

[Sviss Geez]

This headline should be for the govt not the public.

It is...

"The Thai government can avoid the pitfalls of China-backed projects, but only if it learns from the experience of its regional neighbours and finds ways solve the obstacles posed by Chinese investment"

[Costas2008]

If I ever hear again.......beware of the Greeks bearing gifts........you are in trouble.

It's official now........it's the Chinese........