US: Florida boy's circumcision spurs lengthy legal battle, protests

[Jingthing]

I am certainly glad my parents didn't decide to cut me. It is my hope that this little boy be allowed to keep his penis intact, and that it be made a crime to cut young boys without their informed adult consent. If there is a real medical problem there may be a reason, but that is also debatable as there are often many different options in medicine

Straight common sense.

Well done.

It may seem that way but you'll find the overwhelming vast majority of men who had it done as babies are JUST AS HAPPY about the condition of their penises as those who are uncut!

There are endless numbers of foreskin restoration clinics, groups, devices etc.... It is a massive business because these men were mutilated, diminishing their sex life forever, and although they can never experience normal sexual sensations, they want to try to undo the horrid mutilation that was done to them without their consent.

Just type 'foreskin restoration devices' or 'foreskin restoration clinic' into google to see the extent of the damage that these mutilations have done to men.

Total BS. A small fraction of one percent of cut men are interested in such silliness. They are mostly stimulated to even look by radical anti-circumcision propaganda

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[Jingthing]

As someone who wasn't done, I just find the idea of cutting off one of the most sensitive parts of the body horrific, regardless of any perceived benefits.

Cut men are fond of their dicks they way they are as well. In fact cut men tend to be more sexually creative and realize there is not only one male erogenous zone.

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[tw25rw]

I am certainly glad my parents didn't decide to cut me. It is my hope that this little boy be allowed to keep his penis intact, and that it be made a crime to cut young boys without their informed adult consent. If there is a real medical problem there may be a reason, but that is also debatable as there are often many different options in medicine

Straight common sense.

Well done.

It may seem that way but you'll find the overwhelming vast majority of men who had it done as babies are JUST AS HAPPY about the condition of their penises as those who are uncut! When it is needed for uncut men for later medical reasons, circumcision is usually the ONLY option.

Apart from the ones that end up with no penis at all thanks to complications of course.

I think it's true that if you don't remember it, you won't miss it. But actually having it and knowing that it contributes a lot to sexual function, I know I would miss it, even if it didn't hurt like hell to have it removed.

[tw25rw]

As someone who wasn't done, I just find the idea of cutting off one of the most sensitive parts of the body horrific, regardless of any perceived benefits.

Cut men are fond of their dicks they way they are as well. In fact cut men tend to be more sexually creative and realize there is not only one male erogenous zone.

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I think I would rather they remained undiscovered than remove the main one.

[Jingthing]

I'm happy for you and your relationship with your special something. Are you happy for me being VERY PLEASED INDEED to be cut and having it done while I was a baby? I think probably not. In my view, the uncut side mostly refuses to see it both ways and the cut side pretty much usually can. Nobody on the cut side thinks everyone should be forced to be cut (except perhaps Jihadist Muslims but best not to go there), but the uncut side seems all about forcing everyone to not be cut and stripping parents of having this choice for their babies. Surely there are much more important CRUSADES in the world. Opposing FEMALE circumcision, an entirely different procedure, might be a good start!

Edited January 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Donnie Brasco]

I am curious, which do ladies prefer. Cut or uncut?

Uncut, which of course they are obviously evolved to derive more pleasure from, offers stimulation and lubrication to the female partner.

Then of course for the male, he still has the most sensitive part of his body being stimulated, and also the main head has not been numbed, and offers stimulation as nature intended.

Robbing a man of this, without their consent, should be a human right's abuse.

Do a poll of men who were cut as babies and determine the percentage who feel they were abused. I can assure you very, very few will say that and most will say they are HAPPY the procedure was done.

Ok. How 'bout we do these polls in the operating room.

[tw25rw]

I'm happy for you and your relationship with your special something. Are you happy for me being VERY PLEASED INDEED to be cut and having it done while I was a baby? I think probably not. In my view, the uncut side mostly refuses to see it both ways and the cut side pretty much usually can. Nobody on the cut side thinks everyone should be forced to be cut (except perhaps Jihadist Muslims but best not to go there), but the uncut side seems all about forcing everyone to not be cut and stripping parents of having this choice for their babies. Surely there are much more important CRUSADES in the world. Opposing FEMALE circumcision, an entirely different procedure, might be a good start!

It's not my special something. It's my normal something. I wasn't mutilated as a child and learned to live with it. I think it's a bad thing to do to a child, boy or girl, and only justifiable in exceptional cases.

[Jingthing]

I'm happy for you and your relationship with your special something. Are you happy for me being VERY PLEASED INDEED to be cut and having it done while I was a baby? I think probably not. In my view, the uncut side mostly refuses to see it both ways and the cut side pretty much usually can. Nobody on the cut side thinks everyone should be forced to be cut (except perhaps Jihadist Muslims but best not to go there), but the uncut side seems all about forcing everyone to not be cut and stripping parents of having this choice for their babies. Surely there are much more important CRUSADES in the world. Opposing FEMALE circumcision, an entirely different procedure, might be a good start!

It's not my special something. It's my normal something. I wasn't mutilated as a child and learned to live with it. I think it's a bad thing to do to a child, boy or girl, and only justifiable in exceptional cases.

Loaded language again. Not meant to communicate. Only meant to promote an agenda. Yeah my parents were such bad people. Sure thing, mate, and the vast majority of parents in the USA at the time, also very very bad people, Darned mutilators!

Edited January 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[ALFREDO]

Beyond cruel. Not for the trauma now, but for irreversably robbing them of a full and proper sex life.

I don't know how my sex life could be any more full and proper than it is now with no foreskin

. It certainly seems that it is more healthy to remove it, but I agree that no one would do it as an adult. I even have a hard time making myself get blood drawn or filling a tooth, but I force myself.

"I don't know how my sex life could be any more full and proper than it is now with no foreskin."

Of course, how could you know, should you know, without a comparison? = Sex with a foreskin on your penis since whole life

and Sex with no foreskin on your Penis since your whole life. lol

A slightly comparison?

Maybe, compare the sensitivity of the "sole of foot" of a man who never used shoes and walked all ways, how rough ever without shoes with the "sole of foot" of a man who never walked anywhere without shoes.

[Jingthing]

Dudes ... how do uncut men KNOW what their sex lives would be like if they were cut? They don't. Some here clearly THINK they do, but they don't. Maybe their sex lives would be ... BETTER.

[tw25rw]

I'm happy for you and your relationship with your special something. Are you happy for me being VERY PLEASED INDEED to be cut and having it done while I was a baby? I think probably not. In my view, the uncut side mostly refuses to see it both ways and the cut side pretty much usually can. Nobody on the cut side thinks everyone should be forced to be cut (except perhaps Jihadist Muslims but best not to go there), but the uncut side seems all about forcing everyone to not be cut and stripping parents of having this choice for their babies. Surely there are much more important CRUSADES in the world. Opposing FEMALE circumcision, an entirely different procedure, might be a good start!

It's not my special something. It's my normal something. I wasn't mutilated as a child and learned to live with it. I think it's a bad thing to do to a child, boy or girl, and only justifiable in exceptional cases.

Loaded language again. Not meant to communicate. Only meant to promote an agenda. Yeah my parents were such bad people. Sure thing, mate, and the vast majority of parents in the USA at the time, also very very bad people, Darned mutilators!

Not bad, just misguided like yourself.

[tw25rw]

Dudes ... how do uncut men KNOW what their sex lives would be like if they were cut? They don't. Some here clearly THINK they do, but they don't. Maybe their sex lives would be ... BETTER.

Why would it be better? It's like cutting of part of your tongue to make food taste better.

[Jingthing]

Dudes ... how do uncut men KNOW what their sex lives would be like if they were cut? They don't. Some here clearly THINK they do, but they don't. Maybe their sex lives would be ... BETTER.

Why would it be better? It's like cutting of part of your tongue to make food taste better.

Because there is more to male sexual feeling than only the penis ...

Edited January 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I'm happy for you and your relationship with your special something. Are you happy for me being VERY PLEASED INDEED to be cut and having it done while I was a baby? I think probably not. In my view, the uncut side mostly refuses to see it both ways and the cut side pretty much usually can. Nobody on the cut side thinks everyone should be forced to be cut (except perhaps Jihadist Muslims but best not to go there), but the uncut side seems all about forcing everyone to not be cut and stripping parents of having this choice for their babies. Surely there are much more important CRUSADES in the world. Opposing FEMALE circumcision, an entirely different procedure, might be a good start!

It's not my special something. It's my normal something. I wasn't mutilated as a child and learned to live with it. I think it's a bad thing to do to a child, boy or girl, and only justifiable in exceptional cases.

Loaded language again. Not meant to communicate. Only meant to promote an agenda. Yeah my parents were such bad people. Sure thing, mate, and the vast majority of parents in the USA at the time, also very very bad people, Darned mutilators!

Not bad, just misguided like yourself.

That is so arrogant.

[tw25rw]

It's not my special something. It's my normal something. I wasn't mutilated as a child and learned to live with it. I think it's a bad thing to do to a child, boy or girl, and only justifiable in exceptional cases.

Loaded language again. Not meant to communicate. Only meant to promote an agenda. Yeah my parents were such bad people. Sure thing, mate, and the vast majority of parents in the USA at the time, also very very bad people, Darned mutilators!

Not bad, just misguided like yourself.

That is so arrogant.

Sure, and I am entirely comfortable with my position. Mutilating babies for reasons of tradition, not least religious practice, is bad.

[Jingthing]

I'm American. Like I said the vast majority (over 90 percent) of American boys of my generation were circumcised because that was the standard medical practice then. Nothing to do with religion except for a very small segment of the population. Now it is being questioned more, Latinos generally don't cut for cultural reasons, but still quite widespread, and still perfectly OK to do according to the U.S. medical authorities. It is not considered mutilation. It's considered an optional medical procedure for babies and sometimes a medically required one for older males. There are pros and cons of cutting, yes there is some surgical risk but overall a very low risk procedure. The argument that if there is any risk it should never be done is bogus considering there are documented benefits to doing it.

The American medical establishment policy here is relevant to this thread as it's a story about a case of circumcision controversy there.

To wit:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/news/news/2011-11-15-ama-adopts-new-policies.page

Stop Legal Prohibition of Male Circumcision
Ballot and other legal initiatives have recently been proposed in California that would ban infant male circumcision and penalize any physician who performed it. The AMA voted today to oppose any attempt to legally prohibit male infant circumcision.

"There is strong evidence documenting the health benefits of male circumcision, and it is a low-risk procedure, said Peter W. Carmel, M.D., AMA president. "Today the AMA again made it clear that it will oppose any attempts to intrude into legitimate medical practice and the informed choices of patients."

Edited January 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Fookhaht]

....Sounds like something ISIS would do to captured infidels.

A ludicrous, over-the-top, extrapolation!

You are talking about an organization that relishes decapitation over a simple religious rite or health measure.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Fookhaht

[ggold]

I'm happy for you and your relationship with your special something. Are you happy for me being VERY PLEASED INDEED to be cut and having it done while I was a baby? I think probably not. In my view, the uncut side mostly refuses to see it both ways and the cut side pretty much usually can. Nobody on the cut side thinks everyone should be forced to be cut (except perhaps Jihadist Muslims but best not to go there), but the uncut side seems all about forcing everyone to not be cut and stripping parents of having this choice for their babies. Surely there are much more important CRUSADES in the world. Opposing FEMALE circumcision, an entirely different procedure, might be a good start!

It's not my special something. It's my normal something. I wasn't mutilated as a child and learned to live with it. I think it's a bad thing to do to a child, boy or girl, and only justifiable in exceptional cases.

Not sure if you mean you learned to live with a foreskin? I could understand why you would have to though. Or you think those without had to learn to live without it? Surely you don't miss what you didn't have, certainly at an age when you wouldn't know any better!

Hardly a mutilation in the real sense of the word. A tool is only as good as the user after all is said and done!

But I think the last part of your post is a little disturbing! Under what circumstances would it be justifiable to perform clitoral circumcisions on girls? I'm guessing you didn't mean it the way it comes across? Or did you?

[Lissos]

Jewish or Muslim males will predictably argue this one to the bitter end (pun) for obvious reasons. Personally, I do see it as mutilation, which I don't deem to be a 'loaded term' in itself. No matter how people spin it, it is cutting off a natural part of the human body with various justifications behind doing so (existing medical complications being the only one that makes sense to me), and in the case of Judaism and Islam - based on obscure ritual mythological origins for the whole practice, rather than evidence of advanced ancient insight into prevention of sexually transmitted diseases etc.

If a fully aware adult wishes to have the procedure done by informed choice, 'then' fine. It is the carrying out of this procedure on newborns that I find abusive by parents, and even when it takes place on Boys in the 10-12 age range, it can hardly be said that there is free choice when the weight of family and cultural will power looms. All sorts of bodily alterations (scarring for certain rites of passage for example) are made by tribes across the world and I do recognise that it goes on widely, not just in Judaism and Islam. I'm not aware at the moment of other ones that take place on newborns though.

Myself, I was very nearly circumcised (and only found out quite recently). My father is circumcised, but doesn't know why, a perfect example to me of how these things can take on a momentum of being done out of mere tradition. Because he was, apparently he intended both myself and my brother to be circumcised when we were born because well....he didn't know why really. Luckily, my mother stood in the way of that one. Thanks Mum

[James Yayo]

Dudes ... how do uncut men KNOW what their sex lives would be like if they were cut? They don't. Some here clearly THINK they do, but they don't. Maybe their sex lives would be ... BETTER.

Why would it be better? It's like cutting of part of your tongue to make food taste better.

Because there is more to male sexual feeling than only the penis ...

There is.

Normal, natural men have all that pleasure too. It's great!

[James Yayo]

It's like describing the beauty of colours and a rainbow to a man born blind.

We're sorry you can never experience the real pleasures of a full sex life, your defense mechanism is getting a bit much though.

[Scott]

Stop with the inflammatory baiting. This issue is about a 4 year old boy and the divergent opinion of the parents on circumcision. You may discuss the pros and cons of circumcision, but respect other poster's opinion, even if it is different.

[Jingthing]

Jewish or Muslim males will predictably argue this one to the bitter end (pun) for obvious reasons. Personally, I do see it as mutilation, which I don't deem to be a 'loaded term' in itself. No matter how people spin it, it is cutting off a natural part of the human body with various justifications behind doing so (existing medical complications being the only one that makes sense to me), and in the case of Judaism and Islam - based on obscure ritual mythological origins for the whole practice, rather than evidence of advanced ancient insight into prevention of sexually transmitted diseases etc.

If a fully aware adult wishes to have the procedure done by informed choice, 'then' fine. It is the carrying out of this procedure on newborns that I find abusive by parents, and even when it takes place on Boys in the 10-12 age range, it can hardly be said that there is free choice when the weight of family and cultural will power looms. All sorts of bodily alterations (scarring for certain rites of passage for example) are made by tribes across the world and I do recognise that it goes on widely, not just in Judaism and Islam. I'm not aware at the moment of other ones that take place on newborns though.

Myself, I was very nearly circumcised (and only found out quite recently). My father is circumcised, but doesn't know why, a perfect example to me of how these things can take on a momentum of being done out of mere tradition. Because he was, apparently he intended both myself and my brother to be circumcised when we were born because well....he didn't know why really. Luckily, my mother stood in the way of that one. Thanks Mum

This is an American story ... a country with a long history of male infant circumcision being routine for most of the population (changing but still widespread). Why people seem to want to insist on marginalizing this STANDARD American non-secular medical procedure as only being mostly about Jews and Muslims when in the U.S. that absolutely DOES NOT reflect any kind of reality is revealing. Add up the Jews and Muslims in the U.S. and you still have a TINY MINORITY.

Now the real issue here is about parental rights over MEDICAL decisions for their children.

This case is a messy one as the boy is four ... but the U.S. legal right for parents to make REASONABLE medical decisions for their children remains. In the U.S. (the system this story refers) infant male circumcision remains considered as a reasonable procedure for infants.

The heat about this case was related to the ago of the boy. It's basically a showboat for anti-circumcision activists ... but it has really no bearing on INFANT male circumcision in the U.S. ... still very mainstream and in the vast majority of cases ... SECULAR.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

I've just come to the thread and have read every post and would say Jingthing has argued very well, especially in addressing the opponents' fierce ex cathedra pronouncements that circumcision is ungodly, a crime against humanity, mutilation and other statements that are indicative of a severe and punishing totalitarian fervor. There are a lot of myths about being uncut and I've known for a long time its advocates are as irrational and emotional as myth worshipers predictably can be.

So let me say I voluntarily had myself cut when I was 19. I'd thought about it and researched it for several years up to actually having it done, so it was not a casual matter. Best decision of my youth and I've been congratulating myself ever since.

No pain or discomfort in it whatsoever for me. It is to me superior in every way to being uncut. People who want to make laws against voluntary circumcision and circumcision as a practice or choice need themselves to be restrained by the laws of every civilized society. They shouldn't be so cheesy about it either.

The kid in the OP is four years old now so the screwy parents should let things be to let the kid decide for himself after puberty and with their legal consent if he decides to go for it or until he's of the age of majority.

So that the militant and extreme absolutists of the uncut can have some nightmares, I'd point out that the rate of circumcision at birth in South Korea has been 100% each year over the past 15 years and before that had been at >80% for many years. SKoreans believe being circumcised is not only hygienic, they believe it is also an important indicator of having a modern, advanced and prosperous society.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Publicus

[James Yayo]

If you don't mind me asking, did you have some sort of issue where the foreskin wouldn't retract fully, or was a pain to do so?

I had a friend in their early 20's who had tight foreskin that would be painful during sex, first the doctor incised it, it wasn't resolved and he went for circumcision. He says that the before and after are night and day, he's lost all the sensation from the area behind the head where the foreskin is connected. The most sensitive part of the body I believe. Completely removed and gone forever, never to be felt again. All the joy and sensations of the foreskin itself, completely removed and gone, then on top of this catastrophe there's the numbing of the head itself, taking pleasure away from the last piece left to recieve real pleasure from.

[casualbiker]

I am certainly glad my parents didn't decide to cut me. It is my hope that this little boy be allowed to keep his penis intact, and that it be made a crime to cut young boys without their informed adult consent. If there is a real medical problem there may be a reason, but that is also debatable as there are often many different options in medicine

Straight common sense.

Well done.

It may seem that way but you'll find the overwhelming vast majority of men who had it done as babies are JUST AS HAPPY about the condition of their penises as those who are uncut! When it is needed for uncut men for later medical reasons, circumcision is usually the ONLY option.

But then if they had it done as a baby they don't know any different do they! Once something is done its hard to say "ohh I miss that foreskin I wish a had it back " at that age it would be more like " gurgle ahhhh ohhhh ahhhh ahhhh ahhhh ahhhh gurgle "

I do wonder how many medical circumcisions are ACTUALLY performed each year on adults.

I would suggest that in the US the hospitals and doctors have made it a norm due to obtaining extra fees. Other countries seem to get on well enough with males predominantly keeping their foreskin!

[Ulysses G.]

So let me say I voluntarily had myself cut when I was 19. I'd thought about it and researched it for several years up to actually having it done, so it was not a casual matter. Best decision of my youth and I've been congratulating myself ever since.

No pain or discomfort in it whatsoever for me. It is to me superior in every way to being uncut. People who want to make laws against voluntary circumcision and circumcision as a practice or choice need themselves to be restrained by the laws of every civilized society. They shouldn't be so cheesy about it either.

Interesting and pretty much what I suspected. It is easy to claim that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure, because very few people have experienced it both ways. As far as I can tell, it is nothing but a myth for most men.

[casualbiker]

I've just come to the thread and have read every post and would say Jingthing has argued very well, especially in addressing the opponents' fierce ex cathedra pronouncements that circumcision is ungodly, a crime against humanity, mutilation and other statements that are indicative of a severe and punishing totalitarian fervor. There are a lot of myths about being uncut and I've known for a long time its advocates are as irrational and emotional as myth worshipers predictably can be.

So let me say I voluntarily had myself cut when I was 19. I'd thought about it and researched it for several years up to actually having it done, so it was not a casual matter. Best decision of my youth and I've been congratulating myself ever since.

No pain or discomfort in it whatsoever for me. It is to me superior in every way to being uncut. People who want to make laws against voluntary circumcision and circumcision as a practice or choice need themselves to be restrained by the laws of every civilized society. They shouldn't be so cheesy about it either.

The kid in the OP is four years old now so the screwy parents should let things be to let the kid decide for himself after puberty and with their legal consent if he decides to go for it or until he's of the age of majority.

So that the militant and extreme absolutists of the uncut can have some nightmares, I'd point out that the rate of circumcision at birth in South Korea has been 100% each year over the past 15 years and before that had been at >80% for many years. SKoreans believe being circumcised is not only hygienic, they believe it is also an important indicator of having a modern, advanced and prosperous society.

You said " I'd point out that the rate of circumcision at birth in South Korea has been 100% each year over the past 15 years and before that had been at >80% for many years. SKoreans believe being circumcised is not only hygienic, they believe it is also an important indicator of having a modern, advanced and prosperous society"

I found this on the net. It doesn't contradict what you said to much but it does give a interesting side story :

Virtually no circumcision was performed before the year 1945 as it is against Korea's long and strong tradition of preserving the body as a gift from parents.[44] A 2001 study of 20-year old South Korean men found that 78% were circumcised.[45] At the time, the authors commented that "South Korea has possibly the largest absolute number of teenage or adult circumcisions anywhere in the world. Because circumcision started through contact with the American military during the Korean War, South Korea has an unusual history of circumcision." According to a 2002 study, 86.3% of South Korean males aged 14–29 were circumcised.[46] In 2012, it's the case of 75.8% of the same age group. Only after 1999 has some information against circumcision become available (at the time of the 2012 study, only 3% of Korean internet sites, using the most popular Korean search engine Naver, are against indiscriminate circumcision and 97% are for).[44] The authors of the study speculate "that the very existence of information about the history of Korean circumcision, its contrary nature relative to a longstanding tradition, its introduction by the US military, etc., has been extremely influential on the decision-making process regarding circumcision."[44]

At least one more recent study however has shown a decline in circumcision in South Korea, and even attempted to show that it was an access to new information on the subject that has caused the decline.[

Interestingly the Philippines also has a huge number of circumcisions ' The overall prevalence of circumcision (tuli) in the Philippines is reported to be 92.5%. Most circumcision in the Philippines are performed at the age of 11 to 13.'

Source : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision

Edited January 21, 2015 by casualbiker

[casualbiker]

Dudes ... how do uncut men KNOW what their sex lives would be like if they were cut? They don't. Some here clearly THINK they do, but they don't. Maybe their sex lives would be ... BETTER.

Of course that statement works both ways, doesn't it?

[casualbiker]

I've just come to the thread and have read every post and would say Jingthing has argued very well, especially in addressing the opponents' fierce ex cathedra pronouncements that circumcision is ungodly, a crime against humanity, mutilation and other statements that are indicative of a severe and punishing totalitarian fervor. There are a lot of myths about being uncut and I've known for a long time its advocates are as irrational and emotional as myth worshipers predictably can be.

So let me say I voluntarily had myself cut when I was 19. I'd thought about it and researched it for several years up to actually having it done, so it was not a casual matter. Best decision of my youth and I've been congratulating myself ever since.

No pain or discomfort in it whatsoever for me. It is to me superior in every way to being uncut. People who want to make laws against voluntary circumcision and circumcision as a practice or choice need themselves to be restrained by the laws of every civilized society. They shouldn't be so cheesy about it either.

The kid in the OP is four years old now so the screwy parents should let things be to let the kid decide for himself after puberty and with their legal consent if he decides to go for it or until he's of the age of majority.

So that the militant and extreme absolutists of the uncut can have some nightmares, I'd point out that the rate of circumcision at birth in South Korea has been 100% each year over the past 15 years and before that had been at >80% for many years. SKoreans believe being circumcised is not only hygienic, they believe it is also an important indicator of having a modern, advanced and prosperous society.

Thanks for posting, not many people have had the option to try both.

Questions, you said " No pain or discomfort in it whatsoever for me" is this referring to the initial operation or since the healing process? How long was the healing process, eg until you could indulge?

Do you feel you have more sensitivity or less?

thanks