17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[Jingthing]

Crime of the century

Crime of the millennium!

[Phatcharanan]

Yes that will do wonders for education in the kingdom - why not go the whole Maoist way and execute all teachers!

These people were providing a service for pennies, a service Thais cannot provide (just as a Brit cannot provide native Thai language, unless of course they are nationalised Thai of which there are far more than there are nationalised westerners in Thailand total). Cost to Thai economy - zero; Gain to Thai economy foreign income from both the foreigners home and the clients home (China).

Whether you think it's harmful or not, they are the laws of the land here.

[John1thru10]

some people just like to push the boundaries, now they have blown it and will be tossed out, pretty stupid really for a few extra dollars

Teachers I know do it because it is their only source of income....sad really....they love to stay here and this is the only way they can do it. I'm feeling pretty grateful after reading this.

I've never taught English in Thailand, and wouldn't want to.

But over the last 5 years, I couldn't COUNT the number of Thais who openly and repeatedly encouraged me to teach English without a WP. Almost daily. And when I responded that I didn't have the right visa, so I couldn't, without an exception they all stated 'Who cares!'

This has nothing to do with 'how Thailand feels' about farangs teaching English in Thailand - or probably taxes, either. It's about picking on soft targets to put in the newspaper and pretend that foreigners are a bigger problem for Thailand than the lack of elections, and the million other problems Thailand is ignoring.

[impulse]

Anyone know what type of work permit they could apply for in order to work 'online'?

I thought head honcho was quoted saying, a few months back now when all this recent visa fuss started, that these online workers were not the problem or indeed a problem? And although he didn't go as far to say it, he pretty much said these online types will be given a sort of carte Blanche. Albeit, yes this is Thailand and everything has to be taken with kilo of salt. Must be a bit of a worry for other online workers... Just saying...

Dashing off a few work related emails from the beach, posting on your well sponsored blog from your hotel room, or trading a few shekels on the Forex from poolside aren't a problem if you're a genuine tourist.

Working full time in an office as an unofficial resident without proper work permits (and a tax number) is a problem.

[onionluke]

A way of getting round the visa problem for these schools could be , the western English teachers in a basement, without computers, in Thailand phone Indian guys, with computers, in India who give the online course to the students, with computers, in China.

That way the western English teachers could not be incriminated as they could say " we're just on the phone to our mates in India".

Voila.

[gandalf12]

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The point is the business set up was taking away opportunities from entrepreneurs who are actually licensed to run schools.

Has anyone seen the books for learning English that have been produced by Thai's in Thailand? They are not a bad effort but way below what is required. Mind you it is like a foreigner teaching Thai it is not a realistic concept

How does your reply relate to what I said at all, much less rebut it? No one forces language schools to use Thai-made English texts.

The law is there to protect Thai jobs. Unfortunately there are very few Thais who have a sufficient grasp of English to attempt to teach it. Their grammer in general is poor. I dont agree with breaking the law which is clearly what happened but there needs to be something to fill the gap for English teachers

[rapom]

thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

Persons non fluent, unable to spell and use proper grammar, in writing the English language, should refrain from doing so.

[Suradit69]

Can't manage to catch those who possess/make/sell fake passports and engage in people trafficking but nab a few would-be TEFLERS.

Thai police seem to manage to apprehend a lot of foreigners who've been charged, even convicted and sometime briefly incarcerated in foreign countries, but who manage to slip through the fingers of the "superior" farang police and immigrations in those countries. The prisons here seem to be packed to capacity, so Thai police appear to apprehend a fair number of local criminals. Do you really think they should not enforce the laws against all levels of crime until they first catch all the "priority" bad guys?

The countries that Thai Visa farang come from certainly are constantly tracking down, arresting, incarcerating & deporting foreigners who are illegally resident in their countries and/or working there ... often doing work that their own nationals won't do, spending money in those countries, sometimes even paying taxes. In many cases the work those illegals do is vital to local economies and harming no one, but they are still tracked down, arrested and deported. Does that mean all the serious criminal the Farangland have been caught and the only thing left for the police to worry about is someone picking cabbages without a work permit in California?

On Thai Visa it often seems the most heinous crimes involve beach chair concessionaires, jet ski operators, shop owners who park illegally or lottery ticket sellers that charge more than the set price. Not often you see the farang apologists proclaiming that these "crimes" harm no one or that these people spend their money in the local economy.

It's not really about how petty the crime is or that no one is harmed. The deciding factor here seems almost always to do with the race/nationality of those caught. If they're farang, then the police and authorities are being unfair. But if some Thais cross the legal line or inconvenience Khun Farang, then they should be dealt with severely.

[Tchooptip]

This blue work permit we see on the photo, every foreigner are supposed to ownn one, physically I mean?

Next door I have a new neighbour (teacher in a school nearby) who told me every 3 month he will have to go to Malaysia for his visa, I answered, why you have no work permit no problem ''the school told me I have one'' but he had never seen it! Is it possible?

And with a work permit I was convince one has not to leave the country every 3 months?

[wolf5370]

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

Yes it bloody well is!

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

oh no its not, how can 'colour' be 'color', how can a 'tap' be a 'faucet' how can 'pants' not be something you wear under trousers

Erm "pants" is short for "underpants" - that are worn underneath trousers - as an American invention they were called "underpants" and not "undertrousers".

"Colour" used to be spelled "Color" in Britain too, this was the traditional spelling. It changed with the love affair with France during the powdered-wig 1700s - though most commoners, that could write, still used the non-u version until late Victorian times. It was the break between the UK and the US that sepated the evolution of the languages separately - just as Castallano Spanish differs from South American (indeed even between regions of South America) but remains intelligible across them all.

Not 100% sure about faucet - the original term was actually "spigot" as in a barrel "tap" - "tap" was term that means to remove the top, or sometimes all, of, i.e. to tap out a barrel. Faucet is used in British English as a device for helping a baby descend the plumbing during birth. Some early texts refer to taps as "spigot taps", so it probably came from there. Running water post-dates the separation of the US and UK, so the USA term came from their good buddies the French, whereas English took the term for a barrel tap and used that.

English is a bastard language anyway - arguing over it is absurd. The Germans, Italians and Greeks could just as well moan about how the British have twisted their languages!

[Alan Hall]

That should save Thailand and give more work to the locals.....If they could speak English that is.

[John1thru10]

thai people should speech no fluent english only broken english as english is now officialy the language for the second class.

Persons non fluent, unable to spell and use proper grammar, in writing the English language, should refrain from doing so.

Persons who are not fluent in writing the English language, unable to spell and use proper grammar, should refrain from doing so. - would have been more correct.

[aTomsLife]

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The point is the business set up was taking away opportunities from entrepreneurs who are actually licensed to run schools.

Has anyone seen the books for learning English that have been produced by Thai's in Thailand? They are not a bad effort but way below what is required. Mind you it is like a foreigner teaching Thai it is not a realistic concept

How does your reply relate to what I said at all, much less rebut it? No one forces language schools to use Thai-made English texts.

The law is there to protect Thai jobs. Unfortunately there are very few Thais who have a sufficient grasp of English to attempt to teach it. Their grammer in general is poor. I dont agree with breaking the law which is clearly what happened but there needs to be something to fill the gap for English teachers

I'm not saying that Thais could have been teaching the Chinese English.

I'm saying a Thai, or an owner from any other country, can provide the same service through a properly licensed school. That is the problem. A set up like this one undermines businesses operating within the confines of the law, which pay taxes, as well as process their employees work permits.

[Tchooptip]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

I wish I got a quarter every time someone committed a criminal act that harmed nobody.

Not a bad answer!

[Blindside]

It's an interesting case as they were provided services outside of Thailand, but I assume the payments to them were processed within Thailand. There has been a lot of discussion over the years that internet work where there are no Thai clients, no Thai banking involvement for payment, etc. is more or less "OK" as far as work permit laws ... sometimes even confirmed by some immigration offices. I know purists will say NEVER but in real life that isn't really so. Talking about stuff done in private as well usually from a home ... this place has a physical business office location so that would be different.

A lot of these companies pay through PayPal.

Growth industry.

[bob strutt]

if you can not abide by the thai rules and law, and can not afford to live here, go back to your own country, this is there country

[spidermike007]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

Thousands of us totally disagree. The letter of the law nonsense means little to most of us

Hope you get caught soon too.

Thank you for your goodwill, support, and kind wishes. You seem like a man with a big heart. I do not work in Thailand, so it means little to me. I was only expressing support for those that provide an outstanding service, and do not follow the letter of the law. Sorry, but I have never been a "letter of the law" sort of guy.

[Time Traveller]

I've never taught English in Thailand, and wouldn't want to.

But over the last 5 years, I couldn't COUNT the number of Thais who openly and repeatedly encouraged me to teach English without a WP. Almost daily. And when I responded that I didn't have the right visa, so I couldn't, without an exception they all stated 'Who cares!'

This has nothing to do with 'how Thailand feels' about farangs teaching English in Thailand - or probably taxes, either. It's about picking on soft targets to put in the newspaper and pretend that foreigners are a bigger problem for Thailand than the lack of elections, and the million other problems Thailand is ignoring.

Exactly. It's a political tool, just like the Lese Majeste law. In both cases there is no threat to Thailand yet the politicians publicly silence critics in the name of national security.

Sad, but I don't expect Thailand to ever change. If you're looking to work honestly, try another country.

[Hawkman]

if you can not abide by the thai rules and law, and can not afford to live here, go back to your own country, this is there country

Yes sir!!!

Have you abided by every law here? Concerning motorbike helmets, girls, smoking or whatever? If so, well done sir. Otherwise, get out! It's their country!

[John1thru10]

In all this fury and debate, it seems like there was SOME other little story reported on today....

Gosh, what was that now?

Oh right!

No more internet privacy on any level in Thailand now, the formality of warrants not even required anymore; necessary in order to strictly punish anyone who 'spreads false information or speaks poorly about the new government'. 5 years imprisonment and 100,000k fine at their whim.

You know, not nearly as important as some guys teaching English without a wp, of course!

[rapom]

To me the most criminal act in the whole thing is Americans teaching English

You're probably just resentful that U.S. English is the globally dominant style of English.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

yes it is, but its not ENGLISH

We eat our fish with fries, not chips. We eat chips out of a bag. We ride in an elevator, not a lift. We lift objects up to carry or move them. You mean that English. We did not have a problem with the English language, when we wrote the Declaration of Independence, only the English. We corrected that problem.

[DiamondKing]

Look out all who are working at home online! I wonder how they found out I guess someone talked. I have met many who run online businesses from home in Thailand, everything from selling on ebay, to accountancy programs and support, even property you name it someone is doing it. Always thought it a good idea after all how can they catch you?

The difference is these guys were working for a THAI COMPANY of which they need a permit according to Immigration if you are not working for a thai company and not involved in anything to do with thailand but work online and receive payment out of thailand then they are not interested in pursuing it because there is no permit for that at the moment.

They could never catch all those working from home on their computers and receiving payment in other countries

[nuananddon]

If the U.S. government did this to all the illegal Thais working in the US they'd cry tears as big as horse turds. I know of many from our little area alone who go on tourist visas and have been there working for years, probably employed by Thai businesses, paying no income tax or other taxes that American workers are required to pay. Illegal is illegal no matter what country you're in. Play by the rules and nobody will care.

[toooa]

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Bad move.
They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.
They were taking nobody's job.
Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................
I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

OK, not harming anyone.
So if I open a company that offers the same service but pay 50.000 / month , work permits, social , taxes.
Then this company turns up with the same service but does it illegally and can therefor undercut me, they are not harming anyone?

Ultimately it's the law itself which hinders and hurts trade between consenting parties.... period.

[beb]

As I recall, a few months ago the police raided another location and attempted to arrest a few foreigners for the same thing. In that case they found out they had no case while they were still at the scene.

It's not the same thing, there's a crucial difference. These teachers were employed by a Thai co and being paid in Thailand. That the end customers were in China is irrelevant. When I ring up my bank back home to get help from someone, they are not working for me, they are working for my bank back home - it's the same principle.

Had the teachers been working independently from home and being paid direct by the Chinese customers, that would be comparable.

What is the difference between this situation and the one I mentioned? Serious question because I don't remember what caused them to get off before.

[nithisa78]

This is bibical. It isn't like there weren't about a million warnings.

[dean008]

agreed 100%

Sorry officer I know I was doing 180kmph (wish I could) but I wasn't hurting anyone

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Did you miss the fact that working without a work permit actually is a crime?

The fact that they were 'hurting nobody' is totally irrelevant.

This therefore is an excellent move by the Thai authorities to stop the abuse of the system by non-Thais.

[toooa]

The level of anality here in power here can be quite astounding....haven't they got anything a tiny bit more important to do...really? And what's the lesson to take away from this. 1) the anality index is still on it's way up here.... 2) If you want to be a digital whatever, don't do it from a room full of people doing the same. Easier to spot.

[bapoboy]

Good give them death penalty, so tired off watching all the Thai bashing club, meet me in Nikon court 29 January and we will see who are the f.u.c.k.i.n.g boss. Thaivisa this is thaisvisa haha

[wolf5370]

Yes that will do wonders for education in the kingdom - why not go the whole Maoist way and execute all teachers!

These people were providing a service for pennies, a service Thais cannot provide (just as a Brit cannot provide native Thai language, unless of course they are nationalised Thai of which there are far more than there are nationalised westerners in Thailand total). Cost to Thai economy - zero; Gain to Thai economy foreign income from both the foreigners home and the clients home (China).

Whether you think it's harmful or not, they are the laws of the land here.

I have not said there are not. Laws exist everywhere - they are written by people. Courts worldwide struggle to pick the sentiment behind the letter (the actual words), which is why higher courts exist in the first place. In a sensible society, some laws are relaxed and others strongly enforced - this changes based on the accused's situation also. This is normal. However, I am not disagreeing that there is a law, just that 1. A law designed to protect the economy and Thai jobs should not be employed to do the reverse; and 2. That if there is a real need for a service, and a pool of people willing to provide that service, then the law is an ass if it steps between - a far better solution is to bring said people into the fold, by provisioning a legal exception (or exempting clause) to the law.

In this instance, I feel the correct solution would have been to dissolve the company and prosecute the company owners, but to release the teachers with a warning. The question still remains - were they self employed contractors or employed staff. Both technically illegal under the letter of the law, but treated differently in most cases - and only the latter COULD benefit from a WP, there is no availability of one for the former.