Thai opinion: The Ugly American is alive and kicking

[wabothai]

After reading the news here today and the relentless urge to react, I have my share of thainess today and have the need to readjust myself.untill the evening news.

And history keeps on repeating itself.

[Emster23]

Have any of the allegedly educated ever read the book "The Ugly American"? I have. "The Ugly American" was an ironic comment about a character who went out, helped the common people, got his hands dirty and was not one of the "Beautiful Americans" that do the Embassy circuit, the hiso gatherings and all that. If someone wishes to call me an "Ugly American" I will say "If you are referring to the character in the book described as "the ugly American", I will take that as a compliment.

[iReason]

"...underling the fact that Thailand is an independent country capable of handling its own internal affairs."

Clearly they cannot.

They can't even control their own military.

[robertson468]

Food for thought: The European Union is run by a bunch of unelected MPs, who inflict their rules and dictates on the Countries who allegedly have their own elected MPs, but are obliged to comply with the EU, or else. So what is the difference between these unelected people and the Thai unelected people? One lot are presiding and protecting a strong economy, the other lot are trying to hold together a flagging one that is in quite serious trouble? Know which one I prefer!

[zydeco]

Have any of the allegedly educated ever read the book "The Ugly American"? I have. "The Ugly American" was an ironic comment about a character who went out, helped the common people, got his hands dirty and was not one of the "Beautiful Americans" that do the Embassy circuit, the hiso gatherings and all that. If someone wishes to call me an "Ugly American" I will say "If you are referring to the character in the book described as "the ugly American", I will take that as a compliment.

The OP references the Brando film, not the book. And the film is as depicted in the OP.

[torrow]

Wouldn't the world be a wonderful place if every country was as perfect as America and lived the American dream

[docshock13]

What is so wrong with wanting there to be democracy and a fair election in Thailand

The people currently in power are just scared that the Thai people will one day soon wale up and smell the coffee

and realize how bad they have it. They started to wake up 12 months ago but the military stepped in to squash their dreams.

IMO until there is an all out people revolution that is allowed to play out the cycle willl continue and Thailand will be regarded

as a 3rd world banana republic

Democracy has never existed here in Thailand. The current military government has made this country peaceful again and put an end to all the protests and violence. There is little or no military presence on the streets and the army are doing their best to clean up Thaksin's mess. The majority of peace loving Thais are happy and proud of the job that their army are doing.

The US sent a politician here who obviously lacks education and knowledge about Thailand. He looked at the facts without studying the reasons behind them. He obviously chose the 'elected leader's' side and spoke about the return of 'democracy'. He probably knows nothing about the rice scheme or Yinglucks family background.

The fact that the US sent someone lacking intelligence showed a lack of respect for Thailand. That is what is most annoying about the incident. US Imperialistic attitudes are prevalent whenever their ruling elite engage with the outside world. For example, Fox news' recent embarrassing claims about Muslim areas in Britain and France and another news reporter recently though that the Republic of Ireland was British.Added to this is Michelle Obama's lack of respect by not wearing a Muslim headscarf at the funeral of the King Of Saudi Arabia. I bet no one even thought of a headscarf prior to her stepping off the plane. She shouldn't have gone to the funeral. Most of the Muslim leaders there were shocked by the presence of a woman there let alone one that showed a complete lack of respect for Muslim culture. Right now I would be embarrassed to be American....

"The majority of peace loving Thais are happy and proud of the job that their army are doing."

Two comments on your point: 1) while this may be true, on what evidence do you base your statement? an opinion poll? and 2) if the Supreme Leader is as popular as he and various "polls" claim, then why not have an election? If the "majority of Thais" are overwhelmingly happy with him they can just elect him in free and fair elections.

"The US sent a politician here who obviously lacks education and knowledge about Thailand. The fact that the US sent someone lacking intelligence..."

One comment and one question with regards to the above remark: 1) diplomats are not politicians, they are civil servants. They are not elected nor do they run for election. While diplomats help to implement a country's policy abroad, they have no role in making or shaping that policy personally. They simply represent their country (and policies) abroad. and 2) Have you ever sat a Foreign Service Exam for your country? I'm not sure if its the same in the States, but where I come from you can't even sit the exam without a graduate degree and fluency in at least two languages. Then if you pass, you must go through several more phases of interviews and "real-life" on the job scenarios in the capital (faux press conferences and crisis management scenarios etc.) This is just the screening process that lasts about 2 weeks. If selected to move on, you will be asked to spend 2 years of your life (if I recall correctly) (at trainee level salary) training with the MFA before being re-examined and going through the screening process again at the next tier. The majority don't make it past this stage and kiss away 2 years of their life. The lucky few that do move on, get to spend another 4 years (if I recall correctly) in the capital preparing for a career in the foreign service.

To get to my point, I'm not certain about the States but I know that my government spends considerable resources and time selecting and training their diplomatic corps. I doubt they would invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in an individual over several years if that individual "lacks education" or "intelligence."

And before you ask...yes, I sat the exam, passed and went on through the initial 2 week screening, but that was as far I was able to get. Competition was fierce and the screening was extremely challenging. I think it was after day 2 that I had pretty much figured out my "career" with the MFA would end the Friday of the following week. I was out of my element and I knew it.

As for Fox News...well, I won't disagree with you there!

[gemini81]

I'm surprised at just how clueless the USA has been about Thai politics and what goes on here (I'm American). Our foreign policy towards Thailand seems tone deaf.

Maybe it's because the US ambassador never had to walk through a protest site where someone had just thrown a hand grenade the day before and killed innocent bystanders...? The military cleaned the site up within a week after the coup. Now if they can just do something about the tuk-tuk drivers.

Its because on the world stage, there is little impact from Thailand, and they offer the world little. So the US priorities are elsewhere, and that is just the truth. Who is ranting and raving about SE asia countries in the USA? Not too many really.

[iReason]

Have any of the allegedly educated ever read the book "The Ugly American"? I have. "The Ugly American" was an ironic comment about a character who went out, helped the common people, got his hands dirty and was not one of the "Beautiful Americans" that do the Embassy circuit, the hiso gatherings and all that. If someone wishes to call me an "Ugly American" I will say "If you are referring to the character in the book described as "the ugly American", I will take that as a compliment.

The OP references the Brando film, not the book. And the film is as depicted in the OP.

it's a safe bet that the writer nor any of the current autocrats have read it.

Hyperbole.

They look movie.

[Just1Voice]

To all you people voicing your distaste and dislike about Russell's comments, have you even bothered to actually READ them, or are you just going by what others say.? He said the impeachment and criminal charges against Yingluck "could be seen as politically motivated". "Could be seen...." from my grasp of the English language (Master's degree from Indiana University in English Comprehension and Composition) means that other MAY see it as politically motivated. It doesn't mean they DO think it's politically motivated, but only that they might.

Seriously, some of you, especially those in the Thai Junta "Government" need to have a better grasp and understanding of the English language.

[winstonc]

Now i see a problem with the usual self righteous thai bashers.

Here's the deal. If you have been reading this forum long enough you would know that the shinawatras aren't loved here and the fact that they have chinese blood in them makes it even worse.

Then you have america supporting the shinawatras and questioning the present thai govt which causes the US to be bashed and that's a big no no here it's just the typical farang reaction obviously. It's also not a coincidence that the ones that support america and the rest of the west happen to be anti thaksin/shinawatra so now they are in a fix. Thaksin being chinese = china and an american official asking for a fair trial and getting bashed by the thai side well they cannot support the american side now cos that means supporting thaksin and the chinese side.

Off your med's again? "The shinawatras aren't loved" err sorry mate but you are so far off the mark it's almost sad, how do you think they keep wining elections if they are not loved? and please not the buying votes BS.

"It's also not a coincidence that the ones that support America and the rest of the west happen to be anti thaksin/shinawatra so now they are in a fix"

Do you even live here mate? or just a once a year type guy? that thinks he knows it all? You don't have a clue really now do ya.

well do you live here if you think theres no vote buying..open your eyes and get out the house when and if theres a next election ok...then come back .and apologise for the silly comment you made..

[RichinThailand]

Many of you seem to want to degrade and put down the USA, but just think about this...if Thailand were to take diplomatic action (I will leave that open) against the USA, and they decided to take all their marbles and go home, recalled all American expats and tourist and put an embargo on all trade with the USA, what would you see happening here. And how many NATO and EU nations would follow in support of the USA.

Draw me a picture of the robust Thailand 6 mo. later...empty hotels and condos, no condo payments on long term purchases, supply line for Big C, Tesco,, etc shut off and MANY imported goods no longer available...let alone parts for many of the factories in Thailand.

Go ahead, send them away...see what you get!!!

[hawker9000]

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To all you people voicing your distaste and dislike about Russell's comments, have you even bothered to actually READ them, or are you just going by what others say.? He said the impeachment and criminal charges against Yingluck "could be seen as politically motivated". "Could be seen...." from my grasp of the English language (Master's degree from Indiana University in English Comprehension and Composition) means that other MAY see it as politically motivated. It doesn't mean they DO think it's politically motivated, but only that they might.

Seriously, some of you, especially those in the Thai Junta "Government" need to have a better grasp and understanding of the English language.

It's the combination of what was said and who said it. You're ignoring an important part of the equation. Still, in the context of the administration he represents, the statement really is the next best thing to meaningless. It really should've just been scoffed at and then left in the dust bin.

Many of you seem to want to degrade and put down the USA, but just think about this...if Thailand were to take diplomatic action (I will leave that open) against the USA, and they decided to take all their marbles and go home, recalled all American expats and tourist and put an embargo on all trade with the USA, what would you see happening here. And how many NATO and EU nations would follow in support of the USA.

Draw me a picture of the robust Thailand 6 mo. later...empty hotels and condos, no condo payments on long term purchases, supply line for Big C, Tesco,, etc shut off and MANY imported goods no longer available...let alone parts for many of the factories in Thailand.

Go ahead, send them away...see what you get!!!

Neither side is going anywhere with this. And none of the above is going to happen or even be seriously discussed. 'Not denying there might be some in high places who are delusional enough to think that the U.S. can be played off against China to some imagined advantage, but that's just 'thainess' at work.

[paddyjenkins]

Ooooh....look bad falang try to bully poor thai peoples....speak no good....no good, no good...i boxing falang....falang no good....falang mai di....thailand number one, thai peoples number one.....i boxing falang.....ooooh.....oooooh....oooh oooh oooh oooh....

[asiaexpat]

While I don"t like what Russel did or said I hardly believe it equates to the way America did foriegn diplomacy during certian periods in history. Russel is more a reflection of the incompetent staff that the current US President continues to select. The current President and his staff have demonstarted a complete lack of knowledge about regional politics and cultures on a consistant basis. Thais should not take much of this to heart or expect much from the USA, look who Obama put in as Ambassador to Thailand.

[Bluespunk]

While I don"t like what Russel did or said I hardly believe it equates to the way America did foriegn diplomacy during certian periods in history. Russel is more a reflection of the incompetent staff that the current US President continues to select. The current President and his staff have demonstarted a complete lack of knowledge about regional politics and cultures on a consistant basis. Thais should not take much of this to heart or expect much from the USA, look who Obama put in as Ambassador to Thailand.

Whereas George ""dumba than ya" Bush was the bees knees when it came to regional politics and cultures.

Oh how the military industrial complex do miss him.

[ggold]

Many of you seem to want to degrade and put down the USA, but just think about this...if Thailand were to take diplomatic action (I will leave that open) against the USA, and they decided to take all their marbles and go home, recalled all American expats and tourist and put an embargo on all trade with the USA, what would you see happening here. And how many NATO and EU nations would follow in support of the USA.

Draw me a picture of the robust Thailand 6 mo. later...empty hotels and condos, no condo payments on long term purchases, supply line for Big C, Tesco,, etc shut off and MANY imported goods no longer available...let alone parts for many of the factories in Thailand.

Go ahead, send them away...see what you get!!!

And why would Nato countries! or even EU nations choose to stop trade with Thailand, because Thailand imposes a ban on all things American. Is this not the sort of attitude that angers non Americans. The arrogance to think that America can or does control all that happens in the world. Or that America owns the world!

The fact is, like it or not American influence in the world is on the decline. China will be stronger economically and Politically not so far from now.

[bassman]

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"third-world country."

Didn't bother to read the rest. This is the apparent truth certainly in terms of diplomacy and many other aspects. Yes, Thailand, your current behaviour deserves to be patronised.

You are proving their point perfectly.

Sit down and start behaving like a grown up.

Go your separate ways? Where would Thailand prefer to go? Into the loving arms of China?


Hahahaha. Reap your own crop from that plan if you like. Either man up and play by the rules or take the criticism and make your own path.

I have a feeling,that soon enough someone is going to have a quiet word with this NLA and tell them to wind their necks in. Because if this rhetoric keeps up like this the USA might just take it seriously and tell them to f*** right off and go and get into bed with China.good luck.

You are right that there will be someone having a quiet word with the current regime. Thailand has and will continue to be run by big business. Despite the coups, dismissals of parliament, prime ministers not finishing their terms, little has changed in Thailand. Anywhere else in the world a military coup would have deflated currency and crashed stock markets, in Thailand the last two coups have been non events on either the markets or currency. Sure some of Thai elite will not tolerate pissing off some of your largest export and investment markets. As well as your 150 year ally at a time when China is stirring the pacific pot.

[rickirs]

It would be wonderful that the Thai Peoples could have the right to say "enough is enough," both with the USA and with the leadership of its own country.

Unfortunately, only the Junta has the freedom of expression for such a right. Obviously, all the attention the Junta has given to USA Assistant Secretary Russel's statements is a reflection of its own fear that America's freedom of expression might infect the Thai people. And then the Junta would be faced with the impossible task of conducting attitude adjustments for 65 million people.

[mrtoad]

What a moronic, nationalistic piece of tripe.

[emilymat]

What is so wrong with wanting there to be democracy and a fair election in Thailand

The people currently in power are just scared that the Thai people will one day soon wale up and smell the coffee

and realize how bad they have it. They started to wake up 12 months ago but the military stepped in to squash their dreams.

IMO until there is an all out people revolution that is allowed to play out the cycle willl continue and Thailand will be regarded

as a 3rd world banana republic

Democracy has never existed here in Thailand. The current military government has made this country peaceful again and put an end to all the protests and violence. There is little or no military presence on the streets and the army are doing their best to clean up Thaksin's mess. The majority of peace loving Thais are happy and proud of the job that their army are doing.

The US sent a politician here who obviously lacks education and knowledge about Thailand. He looked at the facts without studying the reasons behind them. He obviously chose the 'elected leader's' side and spoke about the return of 'democracy'. He probably knows nothing about the rice scheme or Yinglucks family background.

The fact that the US sent someone lacking intelligence showed a lack of respect for Thailand. That is what is most annoying about the incident. US Imperialistic attitudes are prevalent whenever their ruling elite engage with the outside world. For example, Fox news' recent embarrassing claims about Muslim areas in Britain and France and another news reporter recently though that the Republic of Ireland was British.Added to this is Michelle Obama's lack of respect by not wearing a Muslim headscarf at the funeral of the King Of Saudi Arabia. I bet no one even thought of a headscarf prior to her stepping off the plane. She shouldn't have gone to the funeral. Most of the Muslim leaders there were shocked by the presence of a woman there let alone one that showed a complete lack of respect for Muslim culture. Right now I would be embarrassed to be American....

I'm not an American but I find your comments to be pretty rabid. I know US bashing is a sport on this forum but let us not forget that this country (Thailand) is pretty two-faced about politics.

For international purposes of aid and security it purports to want 'democracy' as is understood by other countries, particularly in the west.

On the other hand it knows, in reality, that most of the middle and upper classes together with the military would much rather have a beguine dictatorship. (You make that point in your opening statement and you are obviously entitled to it).

However, you then go on with a personal attack on the US Presidents wife, as though she has a bearing on what's going on here. You then say that most Muslim leaders were shocked by her presence - as a woman. I'm not sure if this tells me something about these leaders or your own views.

Finally, how can you say a senior State Department official has no education or understanding.?

[binjalin]

What a moronic, nationalistic piece of tripe.

Actually 'nationalism', from any country or source, is one of the major problems in the world. A 'Global Citizen' approach would end much of the conflicts. I must say, though, and I have lived in India and other places Thailand is probably the most nationalistic I have come across. It is debatable, I grant you, but they are rather indoctrinated here from birth.

[Tokay]

"Many Thais..."

No one cares about this nonsense other than a handful of people at the top of the local food chain who are power tripping.

[TomJoad]

I'm surprised at just how clueless the USA has been about Thai politics and what goes on here (I'm American). Our foreign policy towards Thailand seems tone deaf.

Maybe it's because the US ambassador never had to walk through a protest site where someone had just thrown a hand grenade the day before and killed innocent bystanders...? The military cleaned the site up within a week after the coup. Now if they can just do something about the tuk-tuk drivers.

Why don't you write your congress person? Or get a new passport?

PS: Your allowed to criticize your government.

Dear congressman,

If Thailand's current government is such a major concern of the USA, then why are Thai women allowed to go out in public without a face veil and drive a car on the streets, but women in Saudi Arabia will get arrested for doing the same exact thing?

_____

Dear valued constituent,

Because Thailand is not a member of OPEC.

Sincerely,

your congressman

[ldiablo]

As with most news articles appearing in this forum you must take it with a grain of salt and understand that half of what they write is pure speculation and not based on facts.

Edited January 30, 2015 by ldiablo

[featography]

Yup. Go their separate ways it should be.

And let's see what happens to all the preferential near one way trade agreements benefiting Thailand at the next round of WTO meetings.

I should grow a pair really and say what I really think.

Wife and I agree with you. Stop all aid to all countries. Divert money to the borders, every country that has our military on their borders protecting them, can start paying for our services or we pull out and put our forces on the US borders. Oh if I was president, I.d probably be assasinated in the first 6 mos.

[ShinMusashi44]

Americans .. We know you are the world police the peacekeeper ... But effin hell ,, why cant you just mind your own business ? Why do you have to stick your nose in ! You have got problems in your own country that needs taking care of. No wonder thais increasingly showed alot of dislikes against foreigners, specially western tourist as if they have a sense of entitlement . In my opinion countries like russia , china , north, cuba korea, parts of middle east showed dislike and indignance towards americans for that same reason.. Like an annoying parent telking you how to live your life

They're sticking their nose in the matter because the US is the one that gave Thailand all those weapons.

[featography]

" Many Thais reacted with fury " but how many ordinary Thais know anything about this ? They don't seem to react unless somebody winds them up or there's an incentive.

I've never seen Thais exhibit much interest in the news, only this week I asked a friend what she thought about having to register her SIM card and she had no idea what I was talking about. She doesn't read newspapers !

I've seen very FEW Thais read anything... well lottery winning numbers..... but anything substantial/informative ? LOL Not lately. They seem to really live in a "bubble/shell." At least that's my impression of most of the Isaan folks.

Wife says the Thai phrase is ''frog under the coconut shell'' No interest to come out and see whats going on in the field.

[tonbridgebrit]

Now i see a problem with the usual self righteous thai bashers.

Here's the deal. If you have been reading this forum long enough you would know that the shinawatras aren't loved here and the fact that they have chinese blood in them makes it even worse.

Then you have america supporting the shinawatras and questioning the present thai govt which causes the US to be bashed and that's a big no no here it's just the typical farang reaction obviously. It's also not a coincidence that the ones that support america and the rest of the west happen to be anti thaksin/shinawatra so now they are in a fix. Thaksin being chinese = china and an american official asking for a fair trial and getting bashed by the thai side well they cannot support the american side now cos that means supporting thaksin and the chinese side.

Huh?

How's this for a point ?

There are a lot of anti-Thaksinites on Thai Visa, and some of the anti-Thaksinites hate Thaksin mainly because he is Chinese. They see Thaksin as symbolic of the Chinese take-over of Thailand, they see him as a Chinese tycoon who controls Thailand.

So yes, these anti-Thaksinites are happy that Thaksin is out, but these people don't want to see Thailand move towards China, after all, these people don't want to see Thaksin replaced by a bunch of Chinese from Beijing !! And these people can see that that now Thaksin has gone, Thailand is showing anger towards the USA.

What the anti-Chinese on Thai Visa want is for Thailand to boot out Thaksin, and for Thailand to move even closer to America, and tell Beijing to go away. This is not happening though right now.

It is slightly comical though that some Thai Visa people want to see Thaksin removed because he is regarded as being symbolic of the Chinese take-over of Thailand. The Thai supporters of Thaksin are, off-course, mainly drawn from the Thai-Thai people of Thailand (these are the Thais who are NOT Chinese, they make up the rural farmers of Issaan, etc). Abhisit and the Democrats are the very people who are symbolic of the Chinese take-over of Thailand. The supporters of the Democrats (the yellow shirts) are mainly drawn from the Chinese middle-class and rich. Remember, the vast bulk of Thailand's rich (the richest 5% of the Thais) are actually Chinese people in Thailand.

[Balance]

What Wallace said is that from the outside, the retroactive impeachment and trial might appear to some to be politically motivated. In some ways this rather mild reminder of the reality of western opinions about the coup and recent events here is simply a counterpoint to the bizarre reporting that after a meeting with this country or that country, everyone understood exactly why the military took over and agreed with the move. This has been the propaganda being fed to the Thai people for 6 or 7 months.

I think Wallace was simply reminding everyone of this and requesting that what any government official thinks should come come a direct quote in writing, a press conference, or a speech and not hearsay.

In a talk the PM said that it was disappointing that the Americans still do not understand how Thais work even after being allies for 150 years or so. I would pose that one of points of contention is that in some areas the traditional Thai way may be out of sync with the way a large portion of the world sees the same issues. Change is a necessity, not an option and with the speed at which world opinion is formed and financial markets operate, change has to happen more quickly that it did in the past.