Pool test kit result... Please advise.

[Chuckles78]

My pool is in Hua hin abd it is a chlorine pool.

My understanding is i need to increase pH. Or is this an acceptable level for water here? My pool guy seems to say when he adds the chlorine it will always end up with this pH.

In australia i remember we used to get it pretty spot on but then thats a different climate?

I want to manage the chemicals myself now that i am here longer, was thinking of getting some pH increaser and try myself to get the levels right.

[craigt3365]

Easy to do the tests. Kits are available at pretty much every pool supply place. As as supplies to keep your pool in balance. Shop around a bit as prices can vary drastically!

[Chuckles78]

Thanks Craig. I have a test kit, above is the result of my last test. We have a pool company looking after our pool as i have been away.

I saw JD pools selling increase pH and decrease pH product on their website aswell as regular chlorine and one for shock treatments.

My question, do you guys get the pH and chlorine levels perfect here? As my pool guy says the above test result is as good as he can get it.

[Anthony5]

No this is not an acceptable result, pH is the same everywhere in the world.

The reason you pH level decrease when he adds chlorine is because he uses Trichlor or Dichlor, which have Cyanuric acid added, and acid lowers the pH level.

It will also unlimited increase the Cyanuric acid levels to dangerous level, because Cyanuric acid doesn't evaporate or degenerate.

You should use normal Chlorine only.

[craigt3365]

Your chlorine levels seem too high and your PH is way off. These can be easily addressed. I'm no expert, but there's tons of articles on the internet about balancing your pool. Thailand is no different than anywhere else in the world when it comes to this. But some of the pool guys here are really bad. They love to just throw chlorine in because it keeps the water clear. We fired our last guy due to this and our pool is well balanced now.

[Chuckles78]

Thanks for that tip Anthony!

I will research on how to test the cyanuric acid levels in our pool!

I had a swim in a neighbours pool a few months back who claimed to have a good company look after his pool.

My shorts changed colour after 1 swim in his pool.

[Anthony5]

Thanks for that tip Anthony!

I will research on how to test the cyanuric acid levels in our pool!

I had a swim in a neighbours pool a few months back who claimed to have a good company look after his pool.

My shorts changed colour after 1 swim in his pool.

Your shorts changed color because of excessive chlorine level.

To test Cyanuric acid you need a more sophisticated test kit, which I have never seen available in Thailand.

Order yourself an Aquachek 7 in 1 testkit from Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Aquachek-Pool-Spa-Test-Strips-7-in-1-Fast-Free-Shipping-/221672271446?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item339cb26e56

The testkit you have is useless since it measures pH and TOTAL chlorine only. The only effective chlorine is FREE chlorine.

Cyanuric levels above 100 pm may be life threatening. Do a Google for Cyanuric ( CYA) dangerous levels.

If you are using the pool boy for more than a year your CYA levels will be most probably way above dangerous level.

As an Australian you will be probably aware of the troublefreepool dot com website. Go have a look there, lots of educational stuff on there.

It also has a pool calculator where you more or less correct can calculate how much of a certain chemical you have to add to your pool to reach a particular desired effect.

http://poolcalculator.com/?utm_source=www.poolcalculator.com&utm_medium=redirect&utm_campaign=redirect/

Edit to add: The number one correct testkit is a Taylor Testkit, but a complete kit with all the liquids will set you back 4 - 5000 Baht easily, and as far as I'm aware only to order from abroad.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Anthony5

[nithisa78]

I'm from NYC. Have had swimming pool almost since birth.

Lived at Swan Hotel, in Bangrak. With or without pool service, never have seen a public pool (hotel) or any other so consistently clean and perfect.

Time will come we'll have our own pool in Thailand too. Whomever cleans and or trains (they did change cleaners once) their pool.That's who will set up our pool service. <email removed for protection>

good luck

[nithisa78]

Dieter, Peace. If you contact me privately. I can give you the name and contact information.

The manager knows us and we all learned a lot the time we shared. Have remained in touch.

I had a pool man in Fla for over ten years. It took near five to replace him.

[Chuckles78]

I just ordered the Aqua test strips as recommended from Anthony!

[bazza40]

Both chlorine and cyanuric acid will decrease the pH. Ideally, you want a free chlorine of 0.1 - 0.5 ppm and a pH of 7.5. A high total chlorine means there is a high amount of organic matter in the water. Free chlorine of more than 2 ppm means wasting money, plus eye/nasal irritation.

At a pH above 8.5, free chlorine becomes ineffective in killing bacteria.

You can use sodium hydroxide or lime for pH adjustment. Lime ( calcium hydroxide ) is probably better from the point of view of water clarity, as it assists in precipitating contaminants and hence makes it easier for a filtration system.

Test kits are considerably less accurate than formal laboratory testing, so it's advisable to proceed with caution when making adjustments based on a test kit.

[curtklay]

The Cyanuric acid level is not your problem. You need to check the TOTAL ALKALINITY level, which is not included in your 2 way test kit. If the alkalinity is low, the PH will follow. Adding PH increaser will only bounce the PH around. You raise the alkalinity by adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). When your alkalinity is increased to 100-120 parts per million, your PH will rise with it. You need a test kit that will test more than just chlorine and PH. If your pool guy has been adding tri-chlor, and not adjusting the alkalinity, that's why your PH is so low. The tri-chlor has a very low PH and alkalinity adjustments must be made to counter that. Adding PH increaser (soda ash) will not raise the alkalinity. They are 2 different tests.

While Cyanuric acid levels should not be allowed to get too high, they don't change the PH. What they can do when excessive is make the chlorine less effective. The purpose of Cyanuric acid is to act as a "sunscreen" and prevent your chlorine from burning off too fast. Cyanuric acid is a chlorine stabilizer which is why it is built into tri-chlor tablets. Cyanuric acid is not built into granular di-chlor. It does not usually reach problem levels until several years after start up.

Get yourself a good 4 in 1 test kit. Taylor is the best, but there are other cheaper kits that will do the job, as long as it tests total chlorine, free chlorine, PH, and alkalinity. Test strips are OK, but may be difficult to read correctly at first

The PH/alkalinity balancing can be confusing for poolowners. I worked in the pool industry for 25 years, and taught classes on this subject. The rule is "check and balance alkalinity first". Your PH will usually rise to the correct range, and stabilize. Also, don't do your testing when chlorine levels are above normal.

High Cyanuric acid levels are a different problem. They will cause the chlorine to be ineffective no matter what the reading. The pool will turn green with algae, and adding more chlorine will not help. The only remedy is to partially drain the pool and refill with fresh water. Cyanuric acid should be between 25ppm and 100ppm. The only thing "life threatening" about a higher level is that it makes your chlorine ineffective, thereby turning your pool water into a breeding ground for harmful bacteria. If the level is too low, the chlorine will burn off in hours, creating a similar problem.

Edited January 30, 2015 by curtklay

[Gandtee]

While on a break down in Prachuap Kiri Kan my young grandson swam for some time in the resort pool which to me had a very strong smell of chlorine. That night he was struggling for breath and was admitted to hospital. The doctors didn't point to the cause but I am pretty sure that it was because of the chlorine. He suffered breathing problems for some years after that. It seemed to me that the resort staff just threw chlorine into the pool without any knowledge of the effects. The balance is pretty important I should think.

[Anthony5]

Both chlorine and cyanuric acid will decrease the pH. Ideally, you want a free chlorine of 0.1 - 0.5 ppm and a pH of 7.5. A high total chlorine means there is a high amount of organic matter in the water. Free chlorine of more than 2 ppm means wasting money, plus eye/nasal irritation.

At a pH above 8.5, free chlorine becomes ineffective in killing bacteria.

You can use sodium hydroxide or lime for pH adjustment. Lime ( calcium hydroxide ) is probably better from the point of view of water clarity, as it assists in precipitating contaminants and hence makes it easier for a filtration system.

Test kits are considerably less accurate than formal laboratory testing, so it's advisable to proceed with caution when making adjustments based on a test kit.

Chlorine will increase the pH since chlorine itself has a pH of around 11.5.

With a free chlorine level of 0.1 - 0.5 ppm, your pool water will be as green as the most beautiful lawn in town within a week.

Free chlorine levels should be kept at a minimum of 3 ppm, and with a saltwater pool advised above 5 ppm, and with total chlorine levels not more than 0.5 ppm above free chlorine levels.

Free Chlorine levels mentioned is the level that should be measured at the end of the day, because it is the UV in the sun that decreases your chlorine.

Therefore it is advised to add chlorine every day in the evening, rather than a larger amount every 3 days like the pool services do, because the latter increases the risk on a high combined chlorine level.

If you don't have algae in your pool the chlorine level in the morning should be nearly the same as at the start of the darkness. If your free chlorine level decreases between dusk and dawn that means you have algae or another problem in the water. These problems are not always visible. The clearest looking pool may be a hazard to swim in, because the sanity is below recommended levels.

Keep in mind there are 3 chlorine levels, from which 2 are measurable, which are free chlorine and total chlorine. The difference between the two is called combined chlorine.

Free chlorine is the effective chlorine. A combined chlorine level of higher than 0.5 ppm indicates that there is a too high level of ammonia in the water, and you need to shock the pool to get the combined chlorine level down.

Chlorine effectiveness is to its fullest with a pH level of 7.4. Above or under that level will decrease effectiveness.

Also keep in mind that too high CYA levels are not only a health risk but also render your chlorine ineffective, since CYA works a a chlorine buffer for the UV. The higher your CYA level the higher your free chlorine level has to be.

Non SWG pools means, no Salt Water Generator, or in other words no chlorinator.

http://www.troublefreepool.com/content/123-abc-of-pool-water-chemistry

There are five chemical levels that every pool owner needs to keep track of:

• FC - Free Chlorine - A sanitizer which keeps your pool water safe and free of germs. Chlorine must be constantly replenished. (level depends on CYA)
• PH - Acidity/Alkalinity - Needs to be kept in balance to prevent irritation and protect the pool equipment. (7.5 to 7.8)
• TA - Total Alkalinity - Appropriate levels help keep the PH in balance. High levels can cause PH to rise. (60 to 120, sometimes higher)
• CH - Calcium Hardness - Appropriate levels help prevent plaster damage. High levels can cause calcium scaling. (220 to 350, vinyl lower)
• CYA - Cyanuric Acid - Protects chlorine from sunlight and determines the required FC level. (outdoors 30 to 50, SWG 70 to 80, indoors 0 to 20)

Here are four other chemical levels that come up frequently enough that you should at least know what they are:

• CC - Combined Chlorine - CC over 0.5 indicates a problem.
• Salt - Required with a SWG (Salt Water chlorine Generator), otherwise an optional enhancement.
• Borate - An optional enhancement.
• Phosphate - Doesn't matter, despite pool store claims otherwise.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Anthony5

[Anthony5]

While on a break down in Prachuap Kiri Kan my young grandson swam for some time in the resort pool which to me had a very strong smell of chlorine. That night he was struggling for breath and was admitted to hospital. The doctors didn't point to the cause but I am pretty sure that it was because of the chlorine. He suffered breathing problems for some years after that. It seemed to me that the resort staff just threw chlorine into the pool without any knowledge of the effects. The balance is pretty important I should think.

Chlorine levels will probably not be the cause, but rather too high CYA levels, which means that they will have to add big amounts of chlorine to make the chlorine effective, and which causes the chlorine smell.

Do a search for high CYA level risks, it is dangerous, especially for children. They may die from it.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Anthony5

[Anthony5]

The Cyanuric acid level is not your problem. You need to check the TOTAL ALKALINITY level, which is not included in your 2 way test kit. If the alkalinity is low, the PH will follow. Adding PH increaser will only bounce the PH around. You raise the alkalinity by adding sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). When your alkalinity is increased to 100-120 parts per million, your PH will rise with it. You need a test kit that will test more than just chlorine and PH. If your pool guy has been adding tri-chlor, and not adjusting the alkalinity, that's why your PH is so low. The tri-chlor has a very low PH and alkalinity adjustments must be made to counter that. Adding PH increaser (soda ash) will not raise the alkalinity. They are 2 different tests.

While Cyanuric acid levels should not be allowed to get too high, they don't change the PH. What they can do when excessive is make the chlorine less effective. The purpose of Cyanuric acid is to act as a "sunscreen" and prevent your chlorine from burning off too fast. Cyanuric acid is a chlorine stabilizer which is why it is built into tri-chlor tablets. Cyanuric acid is not built into granular di-chlor. It does not usually reach problem levels until several years after start up.

Get yourself a good 4 in 1 test kit. Taylor is the best, but there are other cheaper kits that will do the job, as long as it tests total chlorine, free chlorine, PH, and alkalinity. Test strips are OK, but may be difficult to read correctly at first

The PH/alkalinity balancing can be confusing for poolowners. I worked in the pool industry for 25 years, and taught classes on this subject. The rule is "check and balance alkalinity first". Your PH will usually rise to the correct range, and stabilize. Also, don't do your testing when chlorine levels are above normal.

High Cyanuric acid levels are a different problem. They will cause the chlorine to be ineffective no matter what the reading. The pool will turn green with algae, and adding more chlorine will not help. The only remedy is to partially drain the pool and refill with fresh water. Cyanuric acid should be between 25ppm and 100ppm. The only thing "life threatening" about a higher level is that it makes your chlorine ineffective, thereby turning your pool water into a breeding ground for harmful bacteria. If the level is too low, the chlorine will burn off in hours, creating a similar problem.

For been 25 years in the pool industry you still need to learn a lot

Dichlor contains cyanuric acid, but at different levels as Trichlor. Since CYA is an acid it will decrease your pH level when you add it, and in combination with the total alkalinity it will help to stabilize your pH level

Total alkalinity (TA) is advised to be around 110 ppm, but the ideal level depends on your calcium level and CYA level. Too low TA levels will drag down your pH level.

The ideal TA level for my pool is around 40 ppm, anything higher will raise the pH level quickly.

High CYA levels are indeed life threatening, and levels at 100 ppm are proven to have no advantage to levels at 50 ppm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanuric_acid

Safety

Cyanuric acid is classified as "essentially nontoxic".^[1] The 50% oral median lethal dose (LD₅₀) is 7700 mg/kg in rats.^[11]

However, when cyanuric acid is present together with melamine (which by itself is another low-toxicity substance), they may form extremely insoluble crystals,^[12] leading to formation of kidney stones and potentially causing kidney failure and death—as evidenced in dogs and cats during the 2007 pet food contamination and in children during the 2008 Chinese milk scandal cases

[curtklay]

If the pool has a strong chlorine odor, it means the chloromines (combined chlorine) are too high and ineffective. The pool needs to be shocked to release the free chlorine.

[curtklay]

OP: There is a whole lot of misinformation being given to you on this thread. I suggest you do your own research.

[Chuckles78]

Thanks for all the info!! I am going to write this all down tomorrow and re-read it a couple of times.

I am going to ride around hua hin tomorrow and see what chemicals i can find at the local pool shops. Hopefully they have a selection of what i need.

[Anthony5]

OP: There is a whole lot of misinformation being given to you on this thread. I suggest you do your own research.

You mean like by yourself like for a start when you say that dichlor doesn´t contain CYA, among a lot of other misinformations in your post

http://www.propoolguys.com/chemistry.html

Stabilized Chlorine (Dichlor and Trichlor): Dichlor and Trichlor are stabilized (contain cyanuric acid), and have a long shelf life.

[curtklay]

No, I mean like you keeping an alkalinity level of 40ppm, and sounding a death alarm on cyanuric acid.

I'm only trying to give the OP some helpful information regarding his low PH, which is what he posted about. I'm not interested in getting into a confrontation with you.

OP: Like I say, do your own research.

Edited January 30, 2015 by curtklay

[curtklay]

And just to clarify, There is "di-chlor granular chlorine" (without cyanuric acid) used for indoor pools or pools with high levels of cyanuric acid.

And there is "stabilized di-chlor granular chlorine" with cyanuric acid.

My post said " Cyanuric acid is not built into granular di-chlor."

But then again, you're the expert.

[Anthony5]

No, I mean like you keeping an alkalinity level of 40ppm, and sounding a death alarm on cyanuric acid.

I'm only trying to give the OP some helpful information regarding his low PH, which is what he posted about. I'm not interested in getting into a confrontation with you.

I never said that 40 ppm is the ideal TA level, I said that the total alkalinity level depends on the calcium level and CYA level of the pool, and is for MY pool ideal at around 40 ppm.

http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/72246-Need-advice-on-best-TA-level

The ideal TA level depends on several factors. If you are using acidic chlorine sources, such as trichlor or dichlor, keep TA on the high side, perhaps between 100 and 120. If you have a SWG, or if you commonly run water features such as a spa, waterfall, or fountain, keep TA on the low side, between 60 and 80. Otherwise levels between 70 and 90 are good. Pools with plaster surfaces should factor their CSI into the preferred TA level decision.

If you can ever get to a TA of 60 - 70 you might find that pH becomes quite stable and if you normally will use bleach this would be your target. Personally, I've only gotten the pool there momentarily.

http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/60427-Recommended-TA-levels-in-PS-vs-recommended-levels-in-TF100

The best TA level for your pool is whatever level that stabilizes the pH best. For me it's 70 ppm, for you it may be different. The best thing to do is adjust the pH whenever it needs it and let the TA settle where it wants to.

Just FYI; If you use tablets your TA should be about 100-120, If you use bleach then about 60-100 and if you have a swg then about 60-80. These are general guidelines and if you're outside that range and your pool is happy, don't worry about it.

I also posted a link to an article that explained the dangers of high CYA levels which you deny there are. If you don't consider that one a credible source, I can easily find 10 more.

I also rebutted your claim that Dichlor doesn't contain CYA with a link, and again I can give you umpteen more that proof the same.

I have recently tested a pool that was not more than 1 year old and maintained by a pool boy, and it tested somewhere between 150 and 300 ppm for CYA, so your claim that it takes several years to reach high levels is also incorrect, or do you suggest the pool boy just wasted his money on excessive chlorine?

In fact it was so high that it was impossible to measure the correct levels, but after replacing 50% of the water it still tested above 100 ppm.

Another myth of yours is that you shouldn't measure chemical levels when chlorine is too high, because the only thing that can falsify the readings is when pH levels are below 7.0 or a TA level above 240 ppm.

Now was there actually anything left in your post that was correct?

[Anthony5]

And just to clarify, There is "di-chlor granular chlorine" (without cyanuric acid) used for indoor pools or pools with high levels of cyanuric acid.

And there is "stabilized di-chlor granular chlorine" with cyanuric acid.

My post said " Cyanuric acid is not built into granular di-chlor."

But then again, you're the expert.

I'm sure you have a link to a credible source to secure your claim. Not?

Well let me do it for you, but of course I will stand corrected if you can proof the contrary. Someone 25 days in the pool business would know what Dichlor is.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/environmental_health/14143/fact_sheet_on_cyanuric_acid_and_stabilized_chlorine_products/556676

What are dichlor and trichlor? – Dichlor and trichlor are two solid chlorine compounds that are widely used as disinfectants in swimming pools. Both are often marketed as “stabilized” chlorine. Dichlor usually comes in a granular form and is marketed for the residential swimming pool market. It is not often used in commercial pools because it is unsuitable for commercial disinfectant feeders. Trichlor is often sold in a tablet or stick form for use in an erosion feeder for small commercial pools, such as those at hotels and motels. Both dichlor and trichlor release cyanuric acid into the pool water, so it is not necessary to add cyanuric acid to a pool that uses either of these compounds as the primary disinfectant.

How much is too much cyanuric acid? – While Pennsylvania has no upper limit in the Public Swimming and Bathing Code, other states have set maximum levels in the range of 80 to 100 ppm. The Pennsylvania Department of Health recommends that cyanuric acid levels should never exceed 80 ppm.

Summary of Pennsylvania Department of Health Recommendations

1. Cyanuric acid and stabilized chlorine (diclor or trichlor) should be used in outdoor swimming pools only. It should never be used in indoor swimming pools or spas and hot tubs.
2. Both dichlor and trichlor release cyanuric acid to the pool water and it is never necessary to put additional cyanuric acid into a pool that uses dichlor or trichlor.
3. Pools that use cyanuric acid should maintain a free chlorine residual of 2 parts per million (ppm)
4. Cyanuric acid levels should be tested at least once a week and before any additional cyanuric acid is added..
5. Cyanuric acid levels should never exceed 80 ppm.

[curtklay]

Thanks for all the info!! I am going to write this all down tomorrow and re-read it a couple of times.

I am going to ride around hua hin tomorrow and see what chemicals i can find at the local pool shops. Hopefully they have a selection of what i need.

Bring about a cup of your pool water with you, and let them run all the tests.

[jacko45k]

Thanks Craig. I have a test kit, above is the result of my last test. We have a pool company looking after our pool as i have been away.

I saw JD pools selling increase pH and decrease pH product on their website aswell as regular chlorine and one for shock treatments.

My question, do you guys get the pH and chlorine levels perfect here? As my pool guy says the above test result is as good as he can get it.

I do have acid and soda ash for my chlorine pool, but never seem to need to add any.

Very slightly alkaline is optimum, it is supposed to match your natural eye's ph.

Hard to tell with your picture but it looks like a slightly low ph, to raise it, add little sodium carbonate.

You need surprisingly small amounts, obviously based on pool size.

I have a ruddy great sack of the stuff that I never use.

Beware of getting a bit obsessed with testing, as I said mine seems to hold where it should and I only add occasional chlorine, and a bit of the clarity chemical and algae killer now and again.

It seems to get harder to keep clear in the hot season, now it is great.

[Chuckles78]

I waiting for my new test kit so i can check my FC, TA and CYA.

In the meantime what are the common chemicals i should find in a Thai pool supply shop? And are they labelled clearly?

[Anthony5]

Thanks Craig. I have a test kit, above is the result of my last test. We have a pool company looking after our pool as i have been away.

I saw JD pools selling increase pH and decrease pH product on their website aswell as regular chlorine and one for shock treatments.

My question, do you guys get the pH and chlorine levels perfect here? As my pool guy says the above test result is as good as he can get it.

I do have acid and soda ash for my chlorine pool, but never seem to need to add any.

Very slightly alkaline is optimum, it is supposed to match your natural eye's ph.

Hard to tell with your picture but it looks like a slightly low ph, to raise it, add little sodium carbonate.

You need surprisingly small amounts, obviously based on pool size.

I have a ruddy great sack of the stuff that I never use.

Beware of getting a bit obsessed with testing, as I said mine seems to hold where it should and I only add occasional chlorine, and a bit of the clarity chemical and algae killer now and again.

It seems to get harder to keep clear in the hot season, now it is great.

You only add occasionally chlorine??

Then how does the chlorine get in your water, or do you have a chlorinator? Because an outdoor pool with a 3 ppm chlorine level would be completely depleted of chlorine in less than a week if not any added on regular base.

[Chuckles78]

My test this morning after i jumped in yesterday.

[Anthony5]

I waiting for my new test kit so i can check my FC, TA and CYA.

In the meantime what are the common chemicals i should find in a Thai pool supply shop? And are they labelled clearly?

What you will find in most pool shops is Soda ash, this increases the pH pretty fast, but increases TA only little bit.It will cost you about 30 Baht/kg

To increase TA without raising pH significantly you use baking soda, which can be bought at most supermarkets in 300 gram bags from Mc Garett. Makro is by far the cheapest at 14 Baht.

CYA ( also called stabilizer) will be more difficult to find, if they even know what it is, and it will be expensive if you find it.

Best is to use Trichlor if you want to raise CYA, but I can sense from your OP that your CYA level will be over the top already, so better wait with buying that until you tested.

Trichlor will be available everywhere at 99% chlorine. Poolchlor and Sunbrite are a good brand at affordable price, but actually it doesn't make much sense to look for a particular brand.

What you most probably will need is un-stabilized chlorine, which is available in liquid at 10 -15% chlorine, or in powder or maybe granules at 60 - 65% chlorine.

Just look on the box that there is nowhere written Cyanuric in the ingredients.

Dichlor and Trichlor both contain CYA, though Dichlor at a lower percentage

Hydro Chloric Acid (HCI) is widely available, and can also bought cheaper at some construction hardware shops, as they use it for sandwash for example.

Keep in mind that some poolshops may have a large mark up, so better to visit a few and compare.