Staying in Thailand for online work, what is the situation now?

[Neeranam]

There are loads of agencies giving one year visas from about 20k baht..

These are aimed to people older than 50 that don't meet financial requirements. Like the OP, not everyone in the world is 50 or older.

Strange thing to say. And you don't know what you're talking about.

I got one from one of the more professional agents when I was 35. It cost me 10k.

[sead]

Elite visa

[Neeranam]

Elite visa

Total rip off - there are many other cheaper ways

[paz]

Strange thing to say. And you don't know what you're talking about.

I got one from one of the more professional agents when I was 35. It cost me 10k.

Actually you are the one that doesn't know what are you talking about, and your are also recommending illegally activities.

By the way many things that worked years ago don't work anymore. Things change.

[Neeranam]

Strange thing to say. And you don't know what you're talking about.

I got one from one of the more professional agents when I was 35. It cost me 10k.

Actually you are the one that doesn't know what are you talking about, and your are also recommending illegally activities.

By the way many things that worked years ago don't work anymore. Things change.

Do you think that Immigration officers survive on their salaries alone? If so, why do they have to pay a large fee to secure the job?

[Jaggg88]

The rules are as they are.

And yes, I don't know of people having problems/being arrested for violating those rules, but those rules are there.

which rules? (i hope not the one that defines all action including breathing as working.. )

i was under the impression this is a grey area, did something change?

Not grey at all, really black.white but not enforced.

Up to the OP to make a decision to base a stay here in Thailand on that yes or no.

It is a very grey area indeed. If as a remote worker he is employed by a foreign company, paying tax in that country and working on their equipment which is based in that country then you are not employed in Thailand. However if you are doing this on a self employed basis it could be argued that you are running your own business in Thailand and therefore and need a work permit. All this is moot tho' as it would be impossible to police. When I holiday in Thailand I often VPN connect to work to finish something I'd forgotten or to check urgent emails - nobody in their right mind would claim I need a work permit to do this, but if I did this on a long term basis the whole boundaries become blurred....

[elviajero]

"On-line work" is not now or never has been legal in Thailand without a Work Permit.

I doubt that will ever change.

To get a work permit you require a Thai company to submit the paperwork for you to get that work permit.

Usually that means you must be working for that Thai company.

Now that's the LEGAL way to work on-line in Thailand.

In practice, many people are getting away with it, and the Thai goverenment is allowing it because of the difficulty of finding and the expense of prosecuting these illigal workers.

But, each time you do any activity clasified as "work" in Thailand ....... whether you profit from it or not ..... that activity is illegal without a work permit.

You may get away with it, but then you may not.

As the Thai bargirls say. "Up to You".

The remark on Visa's says "Employment prohibited" not work.

I don't see how someone working online is breaking the "Employment prohibited" rule if their business is based abroad and the income earned abroad, because they are neither Employed in Thailand, or earning in Thailand.

What if someone lived here and owned an ongoing business in their home country. That business was run by employees in that country, but the business owner had daily email or telephone calls with those employees and customers. Would they be breaking the Employment rules?

There is a difference between working and employment as the later would almost certainly have a contract and compensation. The rule exists to stop foreigners taking jobs from Thais or earning money from employment within Thailand.

[Puyai]

Thanks for the replies. If I understand correctly they cracked down only on the people doing back to back visa runs using the 30 or 15 day visa exemption period, but they did not crack down on people getting back to back tourist visas going to embassies ? So you can still do back to back tourist visa runs, as long as you get them at the embassy each time? But ... what if I go to Thailand, rent an apartment start learning Thai, and it turns out they start cracking down on the embassy visa runs too? Let's say I'm settled in Thailand and have an apartment furnished there with all my stuff while doing a visa run, and the Laos embassy decides to reject my visa, because I've had too many tourist visas. If I understand correctly I would be basically totally screwed then and possible not be able to enter Thailand to get my stuff and have to take a huge loss. Or every time I go for a visa run, I would have to take all my stuff with me and prepare to possibly not be able to reenter? That sounds ridiculous. I would hate to invest time and money in a country where I will be possible kicked out of in six to 9 months time and not even know in advance.

I just came back from a visa run. I had 3 previous tourist visas, my new visa, the 4th one has a blue stamp on it saying next time I will need proof of residence and income. This was in Vientiane.

[theonetrueaussie]

....

The thing I do not get is that on one hand you say that you want to decide about "invest in Thailand for a lifetime" but on the other hand you are not interested in any Visa (i.e. Thai Elite, Investor Visa) that would enable you to do that without the hassle and risk of obtaining multiple back-to-back tourist Visa...

I meant invest as in invest my time learning Thai and integrating with Thai culture. I have already visited Thailand many times for shorter stays, so I know it pretty well. I don't just go to a country, I go there and start learning the language and put a lot of effort and time into it.

I do online work, so employment in Thailand or making a company really isn't something I'm looking to do. Unfortunately I'm not rich either to get the elite visa. It's a shame that Thailand, while being the world's biggest "prostitute" to foreign tourists, seems to want to get rid of many foreigners who are there just wanting to live normal lives, learn their language, etc.

Thanks for the replies.

I am a bit younger then you and in a similar boat, After being here for nearly 2 years I can pretty much tell you DO NOT invest here, definitely not straight away. Live here for a year and see how you like it, Very few young people decide to make this place home as you will find no matter how long you stay you can never really call the place home.

While not many people get denied entry do you really wanna spend money and invest in expensive appliances when every 3 months you are taking the gamble of being allowed back in or not and things could change at any time. Also keep in mind that most university degrees here are not accepted overseas so if you do decide to move odds are she will not be able to find a good job!

[Suradit69]

I do not mean to be rude, but you are better off where you are. I have visited Thailand since 1973 and have lived here more than 5 consecutive years now, and Cambodia seems like a better option.

There's a well thought out and profound assessment. 5 years living within easy reach of Cambodia and yet ...

[paz]

Do you think that Immigration officers survive on their salaries alone? If so, why do they have to pay a large fee to secure the job?

No problem, you've made clear already that you support corruption. To each one his own.

Edited January 31, 2015 by paz

[paz]

I just came back from a visa run. I had 3 previous tourist visas, my new visa, the 4th one has a blue stamp on it saying next time I will need proof of residence and income. This was in Vientiane.

So for the next time you can

- provide required documentation

or

- apply to a different consulate

or

- get a new passport. They don't keep track of their own stamps across passports.

All of which is perfectly legal and involves no corruption.

[Puyai]

I just came back from a visa run. I had 3 previous tourist visas, my new visa, the 4th one has a blue stamp on it saying next time I will need proof of residence and income. This was in Vientiane.

So for the next time you can

- provide required documentation

or

- apply to a different consulate

or

- get a new passport. They don't keep track of their own stamps across passports.

All of which is perfectly legal and involves no corruption.

Yes, all those are possible and I will be getting a different visa.

[dluek]

"On-line work" is not now or never has been legal in Thailand without a Work Permit.

I doubt that will ever change.

To get a work permit you require a Thai company to submit the paperwork for you to get that work permit.

Usually that means you must be working for that Thai company.

Now that's the LEGAL way to work on-line in Thailand.

In practice, many people are getting away with it, and the Thai goverenment is allowing it because of the difficulty of finding and the expense of prosecuting these illigal workers.

But, each time you do any activity clasified as "work" in Thailand ....... whether you profit from it or not ..... that activity is illegal without a work permit.

You may get away with it, but then you may not.

As the Thai bargirls say. "Up to You".

It doesn't always have to be "a Thai company to submit the paperwork." I have a work permit based on a couple of letters from an Australian company with no office or any actual links to Thailand -- Non-Immigrant M Visa.

[paz]

It doesn't always have to be "a Thai company to submit the paperwork." I have a work permit based on a couple of letters from an Australian company with no office or any actual links to Thailand -- Non-Immigrant M Visa.

So according to you, you have a work permit for working in a non-Thai company with no office in Thailand. Allow me to call your claim a case of blatant BS, or major corruption. Also, there is no such thing as "non-immigrant M visa". There are visa marked M for multiple entries.

Edited January 31, 2015 by paz

[Cypress Hill]

OP should do what he likes but keep his mouth shut about what he does . . . even to any local girlfriend

If he's not making enough from his existing external clients/employer, he should GO HOME. He should NOT solicit clients here - set ups and stings are not unheard of.

Provided he sticks to these basic rules of engagement, he will never, EVER be investigated, arrested, charged, blacklisted or deported

Good Luck

[CapeCobra]

If your customers are overseas and pay you there I wouldn't worry for a second about my profitable spare time activities. I run my companies by reading emails, chatting, calling, saying yes or no, etc. I wouldn't call that work. Thinking can't be monitored. I use the 50+ option to stay here. That is not available to you. If I was 30 and had no capital to invest, I would get a work permit from my Thai network doing something of value for them that can be done from home. Fairly easy to do, but you need Thai friends. If you work in the IT industry this is a no-brainer.

[elviajero]

The rules are black and white only if you accept that the definition of work is clear.

http://wp.doe.go.th/wp/images/law/4/aliens_act.pdf

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;

The definition of work, does not define work beyond being something that involves 'exterting energy', or 'using knowledge' regardless of whether that exertion or use is for financial reward. Like breathing, walking, reading, cycling, driving.

So either breathing requires a work permit, or the law is intrinsically unclear and is indeed a grey area for which guidance can only be obtained via precedent (of which there are none, in the case of people working online for non Thai entities and being paid outside of the country).

OP - short answer is there is no special permit, there is no special permission either, but there is also no prior example of anybody ever getting prosecuted for working online where clients and payment are non Thai. The only option that is going to guarantee long term stay is either setting up a Thai co with a Work Permit, getting married, retiring, or buying a Thai Elite Visa. In the event I was in your position, and was neither married nor of retirement age, and planned to stay long term, I'd go for the latter.

A tourist visa is not going to cut the mustard beyond a year imo. But whilst it does I believe each visa will last you sixty days, extandable for a further 30, after which you must leave the country. You can return on another, but people are getting refused entry for doing this perpetually.

An Elite Visa requires you to report to immigration every 90 days, but not to leave the country. A Non Immigrant O (Marriage or Retirement) or Non Immigrant B (if you earn enough, and have a Work Permit), will allow you to apply for a year long extension, but in all these cases you must report to Immigration every ninety days (though not actually do a border run) and if you do not apply for an extension, but have a multiple entry visa, you have to leave the country every ninety days instead.

I have an O visa which states "Employment Prohibited" which, in my opinion, is key. Although employment would always involve work, work doesn't always involve employment. As the remark on the visa specifies employment I don't think it's a grey area at all, and as long as someone isn't engaged in employment within Thailand they do not break the rule.

That said, we are allowed to stay here at the grace of immigration and they can refuse visas, extensions or kick us out for any reason they like, so arguing the toss is probably futile.

[Maestro]

I have an O visa which states "Employment Prohibited" which, in my opinion, is key. Although employment would always involve work, work doesn't always involve employment. As the remark on the visa specifies employment I don't think it's a grey area at all, and as long as someone isn't engaged in employment within Thailand they do not break the rule.

...

They do not break the rule that employment is prohibited, but they break the rule that working without a work permit is prohibited.

Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008)

[jspill]

I have an O visa which states "Employment Prohibited" which, in my opinion, is key. Although employment would always involve work, work doesn't always involve employment. As the remark on the visa specifies employment I don't think it's a grey area at all, and as long as someone isn't engaged in employment within Thailand they do not break the rule.

...

They do not break the rule that employment is prohibited, but they break the rule that working without a work permit is prohibited.

Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008)

Ah yes the act that defines working as 'working', then repeatedly mentions:

Section 7, 'career opportunities of Thai people' and 'national development' implying that requirements stipulated upon alien work are done so when it involves something that might take away jobs from Thai people or directly affect Thailand by way of the work's physical presence

Section 8, limiting the number of 'craftsmen' doing 'works in the Kingdom' and refers to those who 'employ' aliens under contract

Section 9, the restricted jobs list which again is stuff like unskilled craftsmen, manual laborers, not people with amazon affiliate blogs and adsense sites lol

Sections 15-20, again refers to aliens being 'employees' of a Thai 'employer', and said entity deducting part of the alien's 'wages' towards a repatriation fund, implying 'work' entails being paid in Baht

Clear as mud.

Not one instance of the word 'online' or 'offshore' on any of the 15 pages. Lots of instances of 'Baht'

Persona non grata in Thailand are defined as those who enter the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training' http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

It's common sense that the alien labor act doesn't apply to someone being paid USD in paypal for their ebook sales and them transferring that offshore sourced money into Thailand to spend and support their lifestyle. In fact you're also persona non grata if you have 'no appropriate means of living once in the Kingdom' (category 2 on the above link')

Besides Jingthing has twice the posts you do and says it's fine to work online

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/page-5#entry8975527

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/page-18#entry8979947

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/page-18#entry8980414

Edited January 31, 2015 by jspill

[KhnomKhnom]

You are dreaming about a place, a nation, that does not exist... not Thailand, not Cambodia, not Bali, not Columbia, etc.

Every nation limits immigration in and controls who can work....every heard of an American green card, they made a movie about it.

In Thailand the laws are definitely present and are black and white regarding work permits and regarding who and how foreign people can LIVE in Thailand... you rejected all the options except the Thai Elite Card or the questionable/troubling/illegal complicated idea of living here somehow within or outside the rules.. makes you a dreamer in my book, sorry.

Every foreigner here lives to some degree in the danger of attracting too much attention to himself, especially getting some Thai angry with him, which leads to a police report or some other kind of official complaint. At that point, all the stuff a person thinks he is sliding by with, come down upon him with large teeth. Someone may not have a drivers license, may just not report 90 days, his dog bites a kid on a bike, etc etc etc, and that line of etc can be huge, but it only takes one infraction to surface and bang, you are in trouble.

That is the way it works here.

[wowfactor10]

Consider a more foreigner friendly country and more political stable country...

How about philipines

[paz]

If all these foreigners (presumably males) are so kindly in warning the OP about how bad is in Thailand, and how much they do not recommend moving here, there must be a reason, right?

It's so good of them, it represent well the spirit of mutual solidarity so common among foreigners in Thailand.

[EnglishJohn]

Whether it is legal or not, chasing someone who works for a foreign company just to kick them out costs the government money and they don't gain anything.

My opinion is that they are far, far more likely to chase people who are working here for a local company without a work permit because the country is losing revenue. If they are anything like the UK, that is all they are interested in.

Bottom line is that if you keep your head down and are not taking income from other Thais (who would shop you in a heartbeat if you were) then it's low risk.

[Pattaya46]

The cost of staying on double entry tourist visa is perhaps 7,000 - 17,000 Bt an year, depending on location. Compare to the "bargain" of 100,000 an year, paid in full for 5 years, not refundable.

The cost of the Tourist Visa option is far more than that in this case. You forgot the 2 or 3 days where he cannot work because of his visarun to Vientiane or some other place abroad. These are lost days for his work/business. And he has at least to make 2 or 3 visaruns a year.

[Cypress Hill]

Every foreigner here lives to some degree in the danger of attracting too much attention to himself, especially getting some Thai angry with him, which leads to a police report or some other kind of official complaint. At that point, all the stuff a person thinks he is sliding by with, come down upon him with large teeth. Someone may not have a drivers license, may just not report 90 days, his dog bites a kid on a bike, etc etc etc, and that line of etc can be huge, but it only takes one infraction to surface and bang, you are in trouble. alt=blink.png>

That is the way it works here. alt=tongue.png>

Yeah, if you go through life thinking everyone is out to get you.

The cost of staying on double entry tourist visa is perhaps 7,000 - 17,000 Bt an year, depending on location. Compare to the "bargain" of 100,000 an year, paid in full for 5 years, not refundable.

The cost of the Tourist Visa option is far more than that in this case. You forgot the 2 or 3 days where he cannot work because of his visarun to Vientiane or some other place abroad. These are lost days for his work/business. And he has at least to make 2 or 3 visaruns a year.

Nonsense.

For many, the best aspect of online working is the ability to make your work fit around your life not the other way round

Having a laptop, tablet or even a smartphone means you're never really out of the office unless you want to be.

The Elite Card is appealing no doubt but there'd be a lot more uptake if they offered a yearly option rather than making people commit to 5 years when they may only want to be here for 3. In any case, you still can't work on it so what's the point?

[Pattaya46]

Nonsense.

For many, the best aspect of online working is the ability to make your work fit around your life not the other way round

Having a laptop, tablet or even a smartphone means you're never really out of the office unless you want to be.

Nonsense? Certainly not.

"online working" covers a lot of very different kinds of work. If your work consists in coding sites with very complex architecture by example, there is no way you can work with just a laptop, and there is no way you can concentrate enough during such trip to make this kind of work. From a development point of view, they are lost days, and as "time is money"...

[Maestro]

For every case that goes to court, the judge - not the members of Thaivisa - will decide individually whether the accused is guilty or not.

I wonder if we will be reading the outcome of the case of the 17 foreigners recently arrested in Chiang Mai for allegedly "providing online English classes to people in China". In the meantime, if anybody can post links to translations of past court decisions about foreigners "staying in Thailand for online work", I am sure that readers would be interested in perusing them.

[Soutpeel]

I have an O visa which states "Employment Prohibited" which, in my opinion, is key. Although employment would always involve work, work doesn't always involve employment. As the remark on the visa specifies employment I don't think it's a grey area at all, and as long as someone isn't engaged in employment within Thailand they do not break the rule.

...

They do not break the rule that employment is prohibited, but they break the rule that working without a work permit is prohibited.

Alien Working Act B.E. 2551 (2008)

Ah yes the act that defines working as 'working', then repeatedly mentions:

Section 7, 'career opportunities of Thai people' and 'national development' implying that requirements stipulated upon alien work are done so when it involves something that might take away jobs from Thai people or directly affect Thailand by way of the work's physical presence

Section 8, limiting the number of 'craftsmen' doing 'works in the Kingdom' and refers to those who 'employ' aliens under contract

Section 9, the restricted jobs list which again is stuff like unskilled craftsmen, manual laborers, not people with amazon affiliate blogs and adsense sites lol

Sections 15-20, again refers to aliens being 'employees' of a Thai 'employer', and said entity deducting part of the alien's 'wages' towards a repatriation fund, implying 'work' entails being paid in Baht

Clear as mud.

Not one instance of the word 'online' or 'offshore' on any of the 15 pages. Lots of instances of 'Baht'

Persona non grata in Thailand are defined as those who enter the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training' http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

It's common sense that the alien labor act doesn't apply to someone being paid USD in paypal for their ebook sales and them transferring that offshore sourced money into Thailand to spend and support their lifestyle. In fact you're also persona non grata if you have 'no appropriate means of living once in the Kingdom' (category 2 on the above link')

Besides Jingthing has twice the posts you do and says it's fine to work online

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/page-5#entry8975527

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/page-18#entry8979947

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/794216-17-foreign-english-teachers-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-working-illegally/page-18#entry8980414

Easy then go and walk into your DOL / immigration department and tell them you work on line etc etc and get a letter off them then ?

One needs a piece of paper to work, so if someone truely doesn't need a WP for on line work I am sure your local DOL will give you as bit of paper stating such, scan it and post on TV when your done, there's a good chap, if your convictions on this matter are so strong and it is legal, then getting a definitive answer from your DOL should be easy then

[Johnniey]

The cost of staying on double entry tourist visa is perhaps 7,000 - 17,000 Bt an year, depending on location. Compare to the "bargain" of 100,000 an year, paid in full for 5 years, not refundable.

The cost of the Tourist Visa option is far more than that in this case. You forgot the 2 or 3 days where he cannot work because of his visarun to Vientiane or some other place abroad. These are lost days for his work/business. And he has at least to make 2 or 3 visaruns a year.

rubbish. Vientienne has internet.