Patong is dead.

[phuketlive]

Where outside thailand?

[xylophone]

Quote Pick of Penang; "Patong is poor value, low quality, over-priced, dangerous and scam ridden place that has rested on its laurels ripping people off for years, and getting away with it because “they’ll always come back”. But, it looks like they won’t and Patong’s failure to interpret and adapt to a situation that’s been changing for years will I’m sure be the cause of it’s demise. Have to say I won’t be one of those mourning when it does collapse. What goes around comes around - and yes even to Patong!!"

I think your post pretty well nails it and I think the summary above is spot on as well.

Hard to ascertain exactly when things started to turn, however I do remember the original Tiger bars being packed and then slowly the numbers fell away, and of course they opened Tiger 2 which exacerbated the problem, although that started to be pretty full initially. At the same time Soi Easy was in its death throes, as was Soi Gonzo and Soi Eric was seeing fewer and fewer customers although it had been one of the favourite Sois for many years.

Soi Lion came and went although again initially it was a very popular little Soi.

Apart from all of this one other incident stands out in my mind as typifying Patong's slide..............when two dumb Australians opened fire with a pistol in Soi Sansabai, wounding a tourist.

I'm not saying this was the cause, because I think you have summed it up very well, and if you add in blatant corruption, greed, incidents against tourists attracting worldwide attention and plain stupidity, then you have got a very potent mix to ensure tourists will look elsewhere.

[SooKee]

Yah I think it's the culmination of all the negatives that have killed it and those negatives have been setting in for a long time. Not like there was a sudden big-bang or anything. More a slow death that on a piecemeal basis has been subject of a lot of comments on TV. You would think those alive to market influences here would (should) have noticed it too. Either they didn't or they didn't care. Instead the ripping off has got worse and both the attraction and quality less and less.

So yup it's been going down the tubes for years BUT I'd agree that there has been a more marked, noticeable and significant slide in the last 3-4 years, last 2 in particular. Tiger 1 was certainly a lot busier than now a few years ago with maybe the back 25% being dead and the 25% in front of them less densely packed than the front 50%. Now, front 30% is OK, with those on the front better than most. The other 70% dead. Tiger 2, which I much preferred for being brighter, more airy and a LITTLE less loud, has also withered, it's the repeated (over and over and over) recipe for the bars that offered nothing new, merely added to the dilution of the (ever shrinking) customer base and the dearth of attractive, friendly girls where there simply were no longer enough to go round. All compounded by the opening/refurb of Freedom (totally dead), Lion and such like.

The 10% increase in alcohol tax likely didn't help but then prices have been increasing regardless and then of course the beach / sunbed saga which I think has been the final nail in the coffin; news travels fast, especially bad and, unlike last year's high season (where people had already booked just as the no sunbed crap all started to come about), this year's 'not so high season' will see the full bite of the effects I think. So it'll be down to the seaweed / 'Snail White' lotion / dried fruit hunting Chinese chasing rooms at 500 a night and who dine on mamak noodle from the 7 to feed Patong's greed and somehow I think that ain't gonna work. Tough!

Edited July 24, 2015 by Pick of Penang

[hansgruber]

I'm ok with it all. The traffic isn't bad at all. Even the radio 89.5 has a traffic segment and said they had their first positive call reporting about the traffic ever. It was smooth sailing everywhere.

[phuketlive]

100 bahts beers at hollywood, really ? can not believe it. Will have to go check it out.

I think they went up to 250 baths for a beer there... I thought it would go up even more haha...

[Lashay]

Just before Bangla on the same side theres couple restaurants that look essential the same from the outside , one nearly always empty the one right next door swarmed with Chinese spilling out onto the street standing around waiting to eat.

Now I wonder which is Thai owned and which has Chinese backers.

Neither, both are owned by two thai sisters. The busy one has been around for a long time, used to be regular meet up place for bangla punters the day after as food was consistently ok and cheap and they served both thai (for the girls) and western (for the girls customers).

Then about 2 years ago some big blog in Korea raved about it and ever since it has been choker block with Koreans. Think most westerners don't bother anymore due to the queues. The other one has never really worked.

Some things were very noticeable. Most of the side sois were totally dead. Tiger 1, only Bar Funk was busy, Tiger 2, the usual front bars busy, but quite a few crammed with Chinese and from talking to the manager it was of the table for 10 and 3 beer (the omission of please' being deliberate) type. You too can drink here for 160-180 baht a bottle and listen to crap music thats so loud you cant even speak. The air-flow there has always been a problem but last night it was like a sauna.

There are reasons why tiger cannot really lower prices (and prices went up so much there) besides the high rent.

First off, none of the bars are really allowed to do "promotions", tiger does not want bars there starting a price war as is happening in other bars/clubs on bangla.

Pity he did not do same on other end when first opened. 5 years ago salary for normal girl was virtually unheard of and if she did get it would be sub 5k per month, then Tiger 2 opened, doubling the amount of bars on bangla. As all those owners wanted girls and as most did not have the contacts they started to try to attract them by not only paying salary but good salary's (also first high season Tiger 2 was a bit of a flop, many girls would not work there without salary).

This jacked up costs to all the bars but things balanced out and except for lady drinks and barfines prices did not change much.

Then a particular french group opened a bar in Tiger (now on main street bangla). These guys not only had a lot of advalible cash but also it seems little interest in actually making money. Their objective seemed to be having the bar with the best looking girls, no matter the cost.

To this aim they would regularly go around other bars and any girl who cought their fancy was offered crazy money to go to work in their bar. Other bars had to increase their salarys again to keep their girls. Think that bar alone, in conjuction with Tiger 1 reopening doubled salary costs for all bars in little over 12 months.

So in less than 5 years, to a bar with say 10 girls, salarys went pretty much zero to 150-180k per month. (bars can mitigate that by setting high 'sales' targets for the girls but even that is stopping to work now)

Some of that gets added onto normal drinks, large portion is recooped on barfines (why they when up so much in such a short time). Some got added onto lady drinks, 5 years ago girls commission would range from 30-60 per drink, these days it's 90 to 140 so most of that extra is lost to bar.

So tiger bars are stuck in a pretty bad situation, they cannot really lower prices due to costs, the western tourists are are young skint types who cannot/will not pay those prices (even though ambiance is designed with their age group in mind) and the rest of bangla is stuck in a race to see who will start selling drinks for less than wholesale price first.

[robertthebruce]

all sounds pretty desperate..., and thats the Punters too...

[SooKee]

Just before Bangla on the same side theres couple restaurants that look essential the same from the outside , one nearly always empty the one right next door swarmed with Chinese spilling out onto the street standing around waiting to eat.

Now I wonder which is Thai owned and which has Chinese backers.

Neither, both are owned by two thai sisters. The busy one has been around for a long time, used to be regular meet up place for bangla punters the day after as food was consistently ok and cheap and they served both thai (for the girls) and western (for the girls customers).

Then about 2 years ago some big blog in Korea raved about it and ever since it has been choker block with Koreans. Think most westerners don't bother anymore due to the queues. The other one has never really worked.

Some things were very noticeable. Most of the side sois were totally dead. Tiger 1, only Bar Funk was busy, Tiger 2, the usual front bars busy, but quite a few crammed with Chinese and from talking to the manager it was of the table for 10 and 3 beer (the omission of please' being deliberate) type. You too can drink here for 160-180 baht a bottle and listen to crap music thats so loud you cant even speak. The air-flow there has always been a problem but last night it was like a sauna.

There are reasons why tiger cannot really lower prices (and prices went up so much there) besides the high rent.

First off, none of the bars are really allowed to do "promotions", tiger does not want bars there starting a price war as is happening in other bars/clubs on bangla.

Pity he did not do same on other end when first opened. 5 years ago salary for normal girl was virtually unheard of and if she did get it would be sub 5k per month, then Tiger 2 opened, doubling the amount of bars on bangla. As all those owners wanted girls and as most did not have the contacts they started to try to attract them by not only paying salary but good salary's (also first high season Tiger 2 was a bit of a flop, many girls would not work there without salary).

This jacked up costs to all the bars but things balanced out and except for lady drinks and barfines prices did not change much.

Then a particular french group opened a bar in Tiger (now on main street bangla). These guys not only had a lot of advalible cash but also it seems little interest in actually making money. Their objective seemed to be having the bar with the best looking girls, no matter the cost.

To this aim they would regularly go around other bars and any girl who cought their fancy was offered crazy money to go to work in their bar. Other bars had to increase their salarys again to keep their girls. Think that bar alone, in conjuction with Tiger 1 reopening doubled salary costs for all bars in little over 12 months.

So in less than 5 years, to a bar with say 10 girls, salarys went pretty much zero to 150-180k per month. (bars can mitigate that by setting high 'sales' targets for the girls but even that is stopping to work now)

Some of that gets added onto normal drinks, large portion is recooped on barfines (why they when up so much in such a short time). Some got added onto lady drinks, 5 years ago girls commission would range from 30-60 per drink, these days it's 90 to 140 so most of that extra is lost to bar.

So tiger bars are stuck in a pretty bad situation, they cannot really lower prices due to costs, the western tourists are are young skint types who cannot/will not pay those prices (even though ambiance is designed with their age group in mind) and the rest of bangla is stuck in a race to see who will start selling drinks for less than wholesale price first.

Yup, spot on. Net result for the customer - poor value for money, very poor. Maybe OK if you're coming out for a week or 10 days with a "couldn't care less" mentality (regarding how much you burn) but there aren't so many of those I guess. And those bars we are talking about 20-30% seats occupied the last 4-5 times I walked past. Even 5-6 months ago the manager at the big Tiger one was telling me takings were down 50%, and that was peak season! Now, I dread to think.

Sure the salary situation generated by Tiger 1/2 hasn't helped, average salary is min 12k with quite a few of the (top - hmmm - not so sure about defining criteria for top!) girls getting 20k per month. High rents, high salaries, payments to the 'authorities', skimming cashiers (and that is SOOOO common), who can pay? Of course, the customer. Load the barfines (2k), lady drinks (220-240), beer prices (160-180) whatever. There is price differentiation in Tiger 1 even now though. Those bars in question offering beer at 160/180, couple of bars back just 120, about the norm. So the price control isn't working too well. The front bars get away with it I guess because they are at the front and suckers wander in and plonk down, maybe assuming all prices are the same. Even the standard of the girls in those, supposedly top, bars has nose dived. And as for the bar which is now on Bangla, I guess wanting the best looking girls is no longer a criteria. For me the only bar that has offered a reasonable degree of 'quality' in the girls in Tiger is 'Nasty'. Generally more mature girls, with shapes and curves that look like girls instead of propelling pencils AND some even having a personality and sense of humour!!

Trouble is the equation as to who can pay ONLY seems to factor in the issues the bars are facing, a situation that they have created. Whether the model was sustainable and whether the customer is actually getting a good experience and good value for money don't seem to figure. Cash-cow contempt. And previously "they'll always be back" has carried it. Sorry, but if I go out I go out to enjoy myself and have a nice time and get good VFM, sadly I don't have this inner drive that says "go out and tip as much money as you can into a crap, loud, expensive and characterless bar with girls who are even more characterless so the poor bar owner and be saved from a self-generated crisis".

Yah the Hollywood 100 baht beers took me by surprise. All part of the desperate measures the bars / clubs are taking to get ANY customer at all. In this case it followed the re-opening. Worth to check out if you like Hollywood I guess, you'll have plenty of room in there that's for sure. Offers everywhere but, in many cases, it still ain't working.

Have to say I have little sympathy for the bar owners, far from it in fact, it's self-generated bubble that was bound to burst. Whatever the justification the owners might have felt they had for the continued price hikes offering an enjoyable night out can't be ignored as a consideration, the suckers at the end of their food chain seem to have had enough. It will be very interesting to see how long lived the 'start of high season' celebrations on Bangla are this year.

PS: Not sure why my quote blocks are being cropped long/thin??

Edited July 25, 2015 by Pick of Penang

[phuketlive]

hollywood is dead yes, illuzion took over.

People wait for high season but if russians dont come back, it will be bad again, just chinese and few farangs i guess.

if drinks prices go down, taxis did not change anything, i even hear they try to push 1000 bahts to airport instead of their outrageous 800 now...

shame.

[KarenBravo]

i even hear they try to push 1000 bahts to airport instead of their outrageous 800 now...

shame.

Oh yes. A well known phenomena known locally as Thai Economics 101.

When there is reduced demand, increase the price to maintain profits.

[phuketlive]

i even hear they try to push 1000 bahts to airport instead of their outrageous 800 now...

shame.

Oh yes. A well known phenomena known locally as Thai Economics 101.

When there is reduced demand, increase the price to maintain profits.

haha yes...

Unless you replace all the people here, nothing will change here, they are all the same and dont have a clue about it, it's time to pay then for this attitude!

[SooKee]

hollywood is dead yes, illuzion took over.

People wait for high season but if russians dont come back, it will be bad again, just chinese and few farangs i guess.

if drinks prices go down, taxis did not change anything, i even hear they try to push 1000 bahts to airport instead of their outrageous 800 now...

shame.

Hollywood is dead, that's for sure. ATM Illuzion is actually quite full, takings around 700K a night, not bad for low-season BUT I'm not sure that's because the place is higher quality (it's still a typical Thai club, concrete floors and metal tables - actually more like a not-so much converted warehouse) or the 500 baht open bar for liquor between 10pm and 1:30 am. It's working, for now. Time will tell. Bucket loads of staff though, separate managers for just about every single aspect you can think of so those takings have a LOT to cover! Switch off that 500 baht open bar and I'm not sure it would be so full, I still think Seduction and Blow are better, just.

[phuketlive]

hollywood is dead yes, illuzion took over.

People wait for high season but if russians dont come back, it will be bad again, just chinese and few farangs i guess.

if drinks prices go down, taxis did not change anything, i even hear they try to push 1000 bahts to airport instead of their outrageous 800 now...

shame.

Hollywood is dead, that's for sure. ATM Illuzion is actually quite full, takings around 700K a night, not bad for low-season BUT I'm not sure that's because the place is higher quality (it's still a typical Thai club, concrete floors and metal tables - actually more like a not-so much converted warehouse) or the 500 baht open bar for liquor between 10pm and 1:30 am. It's working, for now. Time will tell. Bucket loads of staff though, separate managers for just about every single aspect you can think of so those takings have a LOT to cover! Switch off that 500 baht open bar and I'm not sure it would be so full, I still think Seduction and Blow are better, just.

illuzion is at war with seduction on their open bar thing and free entrance.

Two bottles for the price of one is working good too, even thai girls take it and share a table, nice promotion.

Ladies night, 5 girls, 1 free bottle.

Keep fighting guys haha.

Seduction is ok when not full of french arabs... They will be back for high season again....

[SooKee]

Seduction is ok when not full of french arabs... They will be back for high season again....

Yah, the customer profile at Seduction / Blow is it's major problem. I think the sunglass sellers must make more money selling them outside Seduction to plonkers who think they look cool wearing them in a night club than they do selling them to people in the day time.

[dageurreotype]

Just looking through this thread and trying to imagine anyone talking about the state of the tourist industry in any other major tourist destination in the world. Post after post mentioning bar girls numbers and looks thereof as pertinent. I can't. Which is quite possibly why the shit hole that is Patong is in it's death throes. It has absolutely nothing else to offer. Very telling in today's world

[xylophone]

Just before Bangla on the same side theres couple restaurants that look essential the same from the outside , one nearly always empty the one right next door swarmed with Chinese spilling out onto the street standing around waiting to eat.

Now I wonder which is Thai owned and which has Chinese backers.

Neither, both are owned by two thai sisters. The busy one has been around for a long time, used to be regular meet up place for bangla punters the day after as food was consistently ok and cheap and they served both thai (for the girls) and western (for the girls customers).

Then about 2 years ago some big blog in Korea raved about it and ever since it has been choker block with Koreans. Think most westerners don't bother anymore due to the queues. The other one has never really worked.

Some things were very noticeable. Most of the side sois were totally dead. Tiger 1, only Bar Funk was busy, Tiger 2, the usual front bars busy, but quite a few crammed with Chinese and from talking to the manager it was of the table for 10 and 3 beer (the omission of please' being deliberate) type. You too can drink here for 160-180 baht a bottle and listen to crap music thats so loud you cant even speak. The air-flow there has always been a problem but last night it was like a sauna.

There are reasons why tiger cannot really lower prices (and prices went up so much there) besides the high rent.

First off, none of the bars are really allowed to do "promotions", tiger does not want bars there starting a price war as is happening in other bars/clubs on bangla.

Pity he did not do same on other end when first opened. 5 years ago salary for normal girl was virtually unheard of and if she did get it would be sub 5k per month, then Tiger 2 opened, doubling the amount of bars on bangla. As all those owners wanted girls and as most did not have the contacts they started to try to attract them by not only paying salary but good salary's (also first high season Tiger 2 was a bit of a flop, many girls would not work there without salary).

This jacked up costs to all the bars but things balanced out and except for lady drinks and barfines prices did not change much.

Then a particular french group opened a bar in Tiger (now on main street bangla). These guys not only had a lot of advalible cash but also it seems little interest in actually making money. Their objective seemed to be having the bar with the best looking girls, no matter the cost.

To this aim they would regularly go around other bars and any girl who cought their fancy was offered crazy money to go to work in their bar. Other bars had to increase their salarys again to keep their girls. Think that bar alone, in conjuction with Tiger 1 reopening doubled salary costs for all bars in little over 12 months.

So in less than 5 years, to a bar with say 10 girls, salarys went pretty much zero to 150-180k per month. (bars can mitigate that by setting high 'sales' targets for the girls but even that is stopping to work now)

Some of that gets added onto normal drinks, large portion is recooped on barfines (why they when up so much in such a short time). Some got added onto lady drinks, 5 years ago girls commission would range from 30-60 per drink, these days it's 90 to 140 so most of that extra is lost to bar.

So tiger bars are stuck in a pretty bad situation, they cannot really lower prices due to costs, the western tourists are are young skint types who cannot/will not pay those prices (even though ambiance is designed with their age group in mind) and the rest of bangla is stuck in a race to see who will start selling drinks for less than wholesale price first.

Yup, spot on. Net result for the customer - poor value for money, very poor. Maybe OK if you're coming out for a week or 10 days with a "couldn't care less" mentality (regarding how much you burn) but there aren't so many of those I guess. And those bars we are talking about 20-30% seats occupied the last 4-5 times I walked past. Even 5-6 months ago the manager at the big Tiger one was telling me takings were down 50%, and that was peak season! Now, I dread to think.

Sure the salary situation generated by Tiger 1/2 hasn't helped, average salary is min 12k with quite a few of the (top - hmmm - not so sure about defining criteria for top!) girls getting 20k per month. High rents, high salaries, payments to the 'authorities', skimming cashiers (and that is SOOOO common), who can pay? Of course, the customer. Load the barfines (2k), lady drinks (220-240), beer prices (160-180) whatever. There is price differentiation in Tiger 1 even now though. Those bars in question offering beer at 160/180, couple of bars back just 120, about the norm. So the price control isn't working too well. The front bars get away with it I guess because they are at the front and suckers wander in and plonk down, maybe assuming all prices are the same. Even the standard of the girls in those, supposedly top, bars has nose dived. And as for the bar which is now on Bangla, I guess wanting the best looking girls is no longer a criteria. For me the only bar that has offered a reasonable degree of 'quality' in the girls in Tiger is 'Nasty'. Generally more mature girls, with shapes and curves that look like girls instead of propelling pencils AND some even having a personality and sense of humour!!

Trouble is the equation as to who can pay ONLY seems to factor in the issues the bars are facing, a situation that they have created. Whether the model was sustainable and whether the customer is actually getting a good experience and good value for money don't seem to figure. Cash-cow contempt. And previously "they'll always be back" has carried it. Sorry, but if I go out I go out to enjoy myself and have a nice time and get good VFM, sadly I don't have this inner drive that says "go out and tip as much money as you can into a crap, loud, expensive and characterless bar with girls who are even more characterless so the poor bar owner and be saved from a self-generated crisis".

Yah the Hollywood 100 baht beers took me by surprise. All part of the desperate measures the bars / clubs are taking to get ANY customer at all. In this case it followed the re-opening. Worth to check out if you like Hollywood I guess, you'll have plenty of room in there that's for sure. Offers everywhere but, in many cases, it still ain't working.

Have to say I have little sympathy for the bar owners, far from it in fact, it's self-generated bubble that was bound to burst. Whatever the justification the owners might have felt they had for the continued price hikes offering an enjoyable night out can't be ignored as a consideration, the suckers at the end of their food chain seem to have had enough. It will be very interesting to see how long lived the 'start of high season' celebrations on Bangla are this year.

PS: Not sure why my quote blocks are being cropped long/thin??

I have to say that I enjoy reading your posts "Pick of Penang' and the same with those of "Lashay", not only because they give great accounts of what is out there, but also because they are well well structured and interesting.

Keep up the good work!

[xylophone]

Just looking through this thread and trying to imagine anyone talking about the state of the tourist industry in any other major tourist destination in the world. Post after post mentioning bar girls numbers and looks thereof as pertinent. I can't. Which is quite possibly why the shit hole that is Patong is in it's death throes. It has absolutely nothing else to offer. Very telling in today's world

You make a good point, however Patong has always been known for its nightlife/partying/girlie bars and beach, and not much else really.

In that regard it is not fair to compare it to the "state of the tourist industry in any other major tourist destination" unless you are comparing it to a place which is comparable in what it offers.

Tourists don't really see the "real" Thai culture as such, in Patong and as regards sightseeing, well it is fairly limited.

It is a party town and incorporates and encompasses everything good and bad that goes with this, girlie bars et al.

[Lashay]

Have to say I have little sympathy for the bar owners, far from it in fact, it's self-generated bubble that was bound to burst. Whatever the justification the owners might have felt they had for the continued price hikes offering an enjoyable night out can't be ignored as a consideration, the suckers at the end of their food chain seem to have had enough. It will be very interesting to see how long lived the 'start of high season' celebrations on Bangla are this year.

I find that a very interesting comment. Basically you seem to be saying they should be running at a loss and be happy as long as all customers are having fun.

Nearly all the cost increases have been factors beyond individual bars owners control;

• Increasing alcohol wholesale prices (introduction of 10 vat and general producers price hikes)
• Rents (if they refuse to pay the bangla rents they will end up somewhere like nanai with little to no customers)
• Girl salary increases (no salary, little to no girls and if you do manage to get them people will complain, to old/to fat/to average and go elsewhere. Actually these days even with salary it can be a struggle as so many of the better looking girls prefer to freelance in the clubs instead, they can up their rates while still less cost to customer due to no bar fine)

Across europe and US (and presume Aus though never been involved in the industry there) average mark up for bottle beer is 250-350%, this is considered needed to actually make a profitable business .

Lets use Singha as an example, wholesale generally around 31 baht (high volume places like clubs can get this down about 10%). Here, selling at 80 baht it's a 150% markup, at 100 baht it's a 215% markup, at 120 it's 280%. So by worldwide standards vast majority of bars are selling too cheap already. Before bars could get away with these low mark up's and still make a profit because then staff were generally paid well under the minimum wage, girls cost virtually nothing and rents were low (you could get a whole soi for less than what a front row bar costs now), but these days.....

Bar owners (and developers) have tried time and time again to get customers out of Bangla into cheaper areas, we said we would never go there, that it would never work and laughed at them, they flopped. And now we complain that drinks prices are to high.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Lashay

[SooKee]

Just looking through this thread and trying to imagine anyone talking about the state of the tourist industry in any other major tourist destination in the world. Post after post mentioning bar girls numbers and looks thereof as pertinent. I can't. Which is quite possibly why the shit hole that is Patong is in it's death throes. It has absolutely nothing else to offer. Very telling in today's world

You make a good point, however Patong has always been known for its nightlife/partying/girlie bars and beach, and not much else really.

In that regard it is not fair to compare it to the "state of the tourist industry in any other major tourist destination" unless you are comparing it to a place which is comparable in what it offers.

Tourists don't really see the "real" Thai culture as such, in Patong and as regards sightseeing, well it is fairly limited.

It is a party town and incorporates and encompasses everything good and bad that goes with this, girlie bars et al.

Indeed. Patong really DOES offer very little else. In addition the inclusion of the girls in the discussion became more prevalent given that they were the stimulus for the bar owners to change their recruitment and operating practices throwing high salaries into the melting pot of 'justifications' for massive price hikes in the last 18 months, indeed the looks of the girls was THE primary reason the high salaries were offered. Pretty girls = more customers = more profit and for a while the theory worked. Trouble is in most cases the girls are nowhere near the quality of those that were originally recruited but the salaries are the same, then a prettier bunch comes along and want even more. And then the bar fines, lady drinks and drink prices go only one way.

Whether the people who come to Patong choose to indulge in the bar-girl scene is up to them But doubtless a significant proportion do. Take the girls out of the bars here and I guess it'd be as busy as a European coastal town on a wet and windy Sunday in winter (but at least I guess you could still get sun-bed there!) because the bars, and indeed the place, sure as hell have absolutely NOTHING else to offer to entice or retain customers. I detest Patong in all honesty, even if I were looking for the bar-girl experience it'd still be the LAST place I'd look for it. But it's pretty much impossible to discuss Patong or it's recent and impending slide in popularity without factoring in the one of the main ingredients in terms of why people come here and which forms the basis upon which massive price hikes have occurred. You only need to look around the bars that pay lip-service to the quality of the girls, with the odd token girl hugging a pole waiting for the time to get down, to see the impact it has on trade. Empty. And after a couple of months closed.

Finally, the interaction with the girls doesn't NEED to have a seedy side, albeit I guess in a lot of cases it does. It is possible to go to the bars and have a perfectly good evening just having a chat and a bit of fun with one or two dancers IF they have the character and personality for it. And IF that is a factor (e.g. are the customers ACTUALLY having a good time) is considered important by the owners. And of course if they weren't all so desperate to get every last baht out of people as fast as they can as a result of low customer numbers. These days though, unlike even 5 years ago, good luck with finding that in Patong.

[SooKee]

Have to say I have little sympathy for the bar owners, far from it in fact, it's self-generated bubble that was bound to burst. Whatever the justification the owners might have felt they had for the continued price hikes offering an enjoyable night out can't be ignored as a consideration, the suckers at the end of their food chain seem to have had enough. It will be very interesting to see how long lived the 'start of high season' celebrations on Bangla are this year.

I find that a very interesting comment. Basically you seem to be saying they should be running at a loss and be happy as long as all customers are having fun.

Nearly all the cost increases have been factors beyond individual bars owners control;

• Increasing alcohol wholesale prices (introduction of 10 vat and general producers price hikes)
• Rents (if they refuse to pay the bangla rents they will end up somewhere like nanai with little to no customers)
• Girl salary increases (no salary, little to no girls and if you do manage to get them people will complain, to old/to fat/to average and go elsewhere. Actually these days even with salary it can be a struggle as so many of the better looking girls prefer to freelance in the clubs instead, they can up their rates while still less cost to customer due to no bar fine)

Across europe and US (and presume Aus though never been involved in the industry there) average mark up for bottle beer is 250-350%, this is considered needed to actually make a profitable business .

Lets use Singha as an example, wholesale generally around 31 baht (high volume places like clubs can get this down about 10%). Here, selling at 80 baht it's a 150% markup, at 100 baht it's a 215% markup, at 120 it's 280%. So by worldwide standards vast majority of bars are selling too cheap already. Before bars could get away with these low mark up's and still make a profit because then staff were generally paid well under the minimum wage, girls cost virtually nothing and rents were low (you could get a whole soi for less than what a front row bar costs now), but these days.....

Bar owners (and developers) have tried time and time again to get customers out of Bangla into cheaper areas, we said we would never go there, that it would never work and laughed at them, they flopped. And now we complain that drinks prices are to high.

Nope. Actually I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is this (from my previous post):

"Patong is poor value, low quality, over-priced, dangerous and scam ridden place that has rested on its laurels ripping people off for years, and getting away with it because “they’ll always come back”. But, it looks like they won’t and Patong’s failure to interpret and adapt to a situation that’s been changing for years will I’m sure be the cause of it’s demise. Have to say I won’t be one of those mourning when it does collapse. What goes around comes around - and yes even to Patong!!"

And of course, no need to infer what I seem to be saying, if I meant to say that, believe me I would. But what I ACTUALLY said was this: Whatever the justification the owners might have felt they had for the continued price hikes offering an enjoyable night out can't be ignored as a consideration,

Pure and simple for me. Patong offers a bland, expensive and low-quality experience and has been happily ripping off customers for years, bar owners included. Now it looks like it's all going pear-shaped. The economic pressure on bar-owners is but one of many factors and one that I guess the number of tourists will be bothered could be counted on one hand. What they WILL care about is whether they are getting value for money (whether it's 100, 1,000 or 10,000 baht) and whether they are getting a good experience and IMO Patong offers neither. The plight of the bar owners is of no interest to me to be honest, thankfully I rarely go there. Cost however is far from the only factor owners should be considering when 'managing' (do they even?) their establishments and staff. I guess if baselines and mark-up was ALL that was being considered people would be having a pretty dismal experience in their bars - oh yeah, they are already.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Pick of Penang

[NamKangMan]

Was out in Bangla last night, first time in months. It wasn’t dead but it sure wasn’t the same as years back. Overall I’d say that now it really IS the pits!!!!

Some things were very noticeable. Most of the side sois were totally dead. Tiger 1, only Bar Funk was busy, Tiger 2, the usual front bars busy, but quite a few crammed with Chinese and from talking to the manager it was of the ‘table for 10 and 3 beer’ (the omission of ‘please' being deliberate) type. You too can drink here for 160-180 baht a bottle and listen to crap music that’s so loud you can’t even speak. The air-flow there has always been a problem but last night it was like a sauna.

Walk around as much as you like but EVERYTHING is the same. Bars look the same, sound the same, selling the same drinks, with the same (very) average girls who don’t even have the personality / entertainment abilities of their counterparts of even 5 years ago and whose opening line these days is “buy me drink” (accompanied by sulky looks from their friends and pig ugly bar tendee when you decline the invite to buy for them as well at 200-240 baht per time). The trend in anorexic girls who look barely 15 is disturbing too, likely caused by the sheer numbers of bars competing for bar girls who are facing massive customer decline. Hardly surprising though, with bars in Tiger 1 charging 1,500 and 2,000 baht bar fines, before your ‘night of fun’ even starts!! Are you serious?? The most telling for me with this aspect of Patong is that it just isn’t any fun at all now. It really is get as much money as you can, as quick as you can.

The clubs are trying even more price slashing to get people in. Hollywood Zero as the re-modelled Hollywood is now called is trying the 100 baht beers and 350 baht shisha. The zero also however aptly describes the numbers of customers. Illuzion is quite packed, doubtless helped by the now 500 baht open bar from 10pm with all house (read crap) liquor included (I guess you just need 2 days to get over the hangover from the rubbish quality liqour). Seduction and Blow seem to do quite well and for me have the nicest style of the clubs here (and I stress HERE).

You can of course chose the gogo bars. Of all of them Suzy Wongs still tops the list IMO with the girls MOSTLY still providing some fun and even some good value drink promotions. Even in these places you need to watch for the sharks though, ever on the prowl for the quick hits for (now) thimble sized shots of tequila at 200-220. The other gogos, other than maybe SW2 (Devils) all a bit of muchness though. Plus, for how long and how often can you do a gogo.

And then there’s the live band bars. Most pretty crap In my opinion and ALL playing the same god-damn catalogue of music. Jeez, how do these people choose their songs? Do they Google “top 20 rock tracks” and just play them? I think you could listen to ’Smoke on the Water” and “Living on a Prayer” as many times in a night as there are bars with bands.

For me Patong by night has absolutely nothing to offer. A plastic, over-priced, overly loud, same-old same-old experience with nothing different about any of the bars at all and absolutely nothing of any class / quality at all if you want to go anywhere that doesn’t have a high %age chance of being graced with the presence of the latest bunch of walk-in drunken trash. Maybe it’s tolerable for a tourist who only has to endure it for two weeks, especially those who have never been before. But to live it’s a definite no no for me. And I wonder how many of the tourists will come back.

Couple the nightlife with the situation with the beaches, sunbeds ("sure you can come visit Phuket, but first stop remember to buy your beach mat, towel, umbrella and trawl it around with you for the next 10 days" - whoopee doo), oh and if you want to eat, go grab a sandwich from a 7 and eat it while it sweats in the sun. Add in the rip-off tuk-tuks, jet-ski and all the problems that were going to be dealt with that weren’t. And lets not forget the taxing road-blocks and significantly increasing incidents of violence. I mean wow. What’s not to like??

While I’m not normally vindictive in nature Patong is one of those few places that I would happily see crash and burns. Teach them a lesson that’s been all too long in coming. Patong is poor value, low quality, over-priced, dangerous and scam ridden place that has rested on its laurels ripping people off for years, and getting away with it because “they’ll always come back”. But, it looks like they won’t and Patong’s failure to interpret and adapt to a situation that’s been changing for years will I’m sure be the cause of it’s demise. Have to say I won’t be one of those mourning when it does collapse. What goes around comes around - and yes even to Patong!!

In general, I agree with your synopsis.

"Patong is poor value, low quality, over-priced, dangerous and scam ridden place that has rested on its laurels ripping people off for years, and getting away with it because “they’ll always come back." - this is quite an accurate description, and the reason why I have often asked the question, "Name one positive thing that has been implemented, for the benefit of tourists, locals and expats, on Phuket, in recent times."

The only things to change on Phuket, and not just in Patong, have been in the negative, and for that, you are charged some of the highest prices in the region, Singapore aside.

You touch on "the tuk-tuk rip offs" - I would add, that for the majority of tourists, just getting to and from Bangla Road for a night out is an ordeal in itself, not to mention adding a large portion to the cost of an evening out, usually costing more than a Thai meal and alcohol, combined.

Pattaya has never been a place I liked, but since friends have moved there from Phuket, I call into Pattaya on visa runs, to catch up with them.

Compare the Phuket prices you mention in this post and others, to, in general, 80 baht beer, 300 baht bar fines and 10 baht transport on baht buses, and I can see why, although many tourists would prefer to holiday on Phuket than holiday in Pattaya, they simply can not justify coming here due to the "Phuket rip off factor." (yes - prices are higher on Walking Street, but Pattaya is a city of Bangla roads.)

I would further add, and of some concern, is Phuket's serious drug problem, combined with harsh economic times ahead, and I would expect to see crime rise, sharply, here in the near future.

As I have said before, we may very well be heading into "The Phuket Financial Crisis" if we are not there already.

Edited July 25, 2015 by NamKangMan

[SooKee]

@ NamKangMan. Absolutely. Agree with you fully about Pattaya too, and they seem to be able to provide it notwithstanding the economic pressures on them and without running at a loss. Fun + VFM. Nice combination. Missing from Patong.

[DanceAllNight]

Patong is dead because it is too overpriced to drink there now, and the tuk-tuk/taxi mafia and nothing special about the beach. But then again, this is nothing new - has been the case for years.

But back years ago when I first went to Patong and partied on Bangla, I bought a lot of drinks - Hollywood included. Now, I drink at home or on the beach and have 1 drink someplace like Tai Pan or Illuzion. Tiget club sucks, Hollywood does as well, and never go to the go-go's anymore.

Everywhere, not just Patong is becoming too expensive. I say go to Chiang Mai or Issan.

[KarenBravo]

Drink prices have gone down in Chalong.

50 Bt Gin and tonics from midday to nine at night in one bar off the pier road. Beers 45 Bt a bottle.

[Lashay]

PoP, not going to extract quotes on this one or post will be massive.

First off, i don't disagree with you, outside of nightlife Patong does not offer much but what other party in the sun destination in the world does? No matter where you go in the world the only real differences between one nightlife entertainment area and another are prices, the quality of the buildings,amount of bars and availability (and cost if applicable) of bedroom activities

Phuket as a whole is different matter, to use simple example http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attractions-g293920-Activities-Phuket.html. I see Zoo's/temples/water parks/go karting/sailing/scuba/kayaaking/shopping/nature treks/shows/food/cruises to name just a few examples. And all within 30-45 of anywhere on the island (and that's before we factor in other things on the smaller islands).

The real issue for the whole island is transport. This is the root of all the problems on the island. If that was fixed business could spread out because the tourists would, which would lower rents, which in turn would lower costs to customers

Sorry but still seems to me you are blaming the bar owners and saying they should be putting fun above all else, that quite simple is not a way to run a business, except into the poor house.

Now subject of girls....do you think there is an endless supply growing on tree's or something? Simple fact is Thailand is becoming a more prosperous country and with that prosperity the amount of girls going into this work shrinks. Add in fact that these days girls can lot earn more in bkk, even down south near the border, catering towards Malaysians or going to KL/Hong Kong or Singapore. Phuket farang punters are getting the level of girls to match how much they are willing to pay. If people want better girls they need to stop expecting to pay for a LT the same amount they pay for a packet of cig's back home (saw just last night an angry punter trying to bf a 24 year old B+ type of girl....amount he wanted to pay...1000....that was including the 500 bar fine. Like seriously he was angry because both girl and bar owner told him to get lost).

The bars would love to have every girl having supermodel look's with personalities to match but simple fact is the customers who are willing to pay going price for that quality are few and far between down here, so few girls like that want to work down here no matter the salary. Customers want A+ girls? they will need to start matching in price the Japanese/Koreans/Arabs, hell even the Malasians and middle class Thais pay more these days.

You get what you pay for otherwise.

[xylophone]

Just about everyone has made very relevant points about Patong and this,"name one positive thing that has been implemented, for the benefit of tourists, locals and expats, on Phuket, in recent times" by NamKangMan, highlights an extremely important point, that Patong has been the cash cow that everybody milked without giving anything back.

I agree with Pick of Penang when he speaks about paying the girls and so on, however casting my mind back, the writing was on the wall before girls were being paid salaries here. A great friend of mine owned a bar here and it was my regular drinking hole because I helped him out with several aspects of his life because of his health problems and I was privy to so much that was happening on the bar scene, not only because of my interaction with him and his girls, but he knew many bar owners and it would be a regular thing for us to visit them for a catch up and to "establish solidarity" if you like.

Every day he would do his books and was able to tell on a daily basis the exact financial status of his bar and it was plain to see that it had been on a downward slope since around 2007 and before, and as if to add fuel to this, there were bar owners who were struggling then.

The crowded bars and expats and tourists with wads of money to spend became a thing of the past and as I said in a previous post even before the "new" Tiger opened, the old Tiger was struggling, as were Soi Easy, Gonzo, Lion and others around the place and this was before girls were being paid salaries. In fact another friend of mine had a bar and allowed a girl to become a pole dancer on the basis of no pay, just tips and drinks from the customers and she was only too pleased to accept it.

What I'm trying to say is that there was a shift in demographics, of course helped by the GFC, and no one actually took stock of what was needed to entice customers back and NKM is right, nothing was actually done to improve the experience for the customer, in fact everyone was jumping on the bandwagon to build as quickly as they could and charge as high as they could and that had to change.

Bangla probably is a microcosm of what is wrong with Patong in general, inasmuch as there is absolutely no thought at the top as to planning, infrastructure, traffic, customer experience etc. In fact it was quite amazing for us expats who live here to see the tourists keep coming back when the sewerage was overflowing in the road, the smells emanating from the drains made one sick and everything was based on greed and what could be sucked out of the tourists – – no thought of offering a tourist experience.

[Lashay]

Drink prices have gone down in Chalong.

50 Bt Gin and tonics from midday to nine at night in one bar off the pier road. Beers 45 Bt a bottle.

That gordon's or local thai equivalent?

Assuming that's local beers (about 15b 'profit' before factoring ice/staffing/utilities/rent) , if farang beer it's pretty much wholesale price

[SooKee]

@Lashay. Why are you trying to assume what I'm thinking? My thoughts, quite simply, are that the night out experience in Patong is simply crap. Over-priced, loud, bland and totally unentertaining. Quite simple, I just think Patong's crap.

I'm not blaming the bar owners at all. I just take the view that I get zero enjoyment and zero value for money at those bars, Whatever the justifications or reasons the poor down-trodden bar owners might feel they have. If I have a crap time in the bars, I won't go, simple. I'm well versed in the practice of running a business. How the bar owners here run them is up to them. But don't expect me to go there and put up with the whatever crap is on offer just because life's not easy. There's plenty of places I go where I do have a good time and where the owners are under the same economic pressures as anyone else.They provide a good night out, with great value for money. So, that's where I go, that's where I spend. The bars are one of the only ingredients of rip-off, scammy Patong.

On the subject of girls, the bar owners racked up the prices to offer salaries to offer the best in town. These days, they don't. But the prices remain hiked. Taking your theme of suggesting what I seem to be thinking, you seem to think it's OK to ratchet the prices right up on the basis of compensating the bar owner for bringing in top notch girls but no problem if they fail to do so. Just pay up punter. No problem with people charging high prices, but you'd better offer an experience that justifies it. Whatever the numbers are all I care about is am I having a good time and am I getting value for money.

You can try to assume what I'm thinking or saying as much as you like, plead the plight of the poor down-trodden bar owners as much as you like. Fact is, no reasons are good enough for me to pay over inflated prices for a crap customer experience and that's what Patong offers. So I'll spend my money elsewhere. The bar owners can console themselves at the next meeting of the Phuket Bar Owners Association and can feel free to berate those god-awful punters who think they have a right to get value for money and enjoy themselves.

The bars are just ONE of the ingredients of the problems facing Patong and it's continued slide from popularity, it's a prominent one for tourists I guess as it's one of the few reasons a lot come here. Hence some of the focus on that aspect, and the micro issues surrounding their operations. Whatever the problems they think they might face, if people don't enjoy it, don't get good value for money and don't come profits will nose-dive. But please don't tell me that just because life's tough people shouldn't be able to expect a good night out. There ARE places that do it.

On a final note, being as we're quoting examples I can think of ample examples of bar owners and staff ripping the arse of slightly inebriated tourists with the girls and their chums making a killing on drinks, fiddling the bin, overcharging at the end, customer paying his 1,500 baht bar fine for a 5,000 baht short time only for the girl to get back to the hotel and suddenly become sick and need to go home. There's examples that can be given from both sides of the fence, there's lot's of tourist in Patong, but the bar owners and staff are hardly all angels and beyond criticism.

Upshot for me is, splitting hairs over the management of bars is pretty pointless. As are opinions as to why and who is right, who is wrong, what is justified and what is not, or what the difficulties might be that the bar owners face. I go out to have a good time and get good value form money and enjoy the night out. Patong bars don't provide that for me. Bar owners can quote as many reasons as they want but it won't change the fact that I and customers that feel the same simply won't go there. My money, my choice whether people think my reasons are right / wrong, justified or not. Choosey customer I am, charity to prop up crap bars I'm not.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Pick of Penang

[NamKangMan]

@ NamKangMan. Absolutely. Agree with you fully about Pattaya too, and they seem to be able to provide it notwithstanding the economic pressures on them and without running at a loss. Fun + VFM. Nice combination. Missing from Patong.

Yes, whilst many say the low exchange rate of the Euro, GBP, USD etc to an overvalued Thai baht has caused much of Phuket's problems within its tourism industry, Pattaya has been able to offer the same products and services as Phuket, without any real significant price increases, over recent years, and I can only put this down to simply market forces being driven by supply and demand, rather than collusion, greed and corruption, which appears to adversely effect the local Phuket economy.

One can be justified in asking why they are paying considerably more for the same product and/or service on Phuket, than in Pattaya and elsewhere in Thailand.

This place is, "The Democratic People's Republic of Phuket" with criminals setting the market price, rather than the market.

Sad to see Phuket's slow, but sure, demise.

[Lashay]

Taking your theme of suggesting what I seem to be thinking, you seem to think it's OK to ratchet the prices right up on the basis of compensating the bar owner for bringing in top notch girls but no problem if they fail to do so. Just pay up punter. No problem with people charging high prices, but you'd better offer an experience that justifies it. Whatever the numbers are all I care about is am I having a good time and am I getting value for money.

You seem to misunderstand, yes many bar owners are paying to have pretty much any girls these days. Why? because girls don't want to work bars here anymore. Why? because they can either go clubs to work less and earn more or even better go somewhere else completely (western farangs here are now some of the cheapest customers around). Salary for the girls was only ever an incentive to get the girls to stay put in one bar. Pick up 1 or two customers a month in a club that keeps them for a few days and the girl is already ahead financially without having to sit around for 7-8 hours per night shouting "welcome" or being nice to old cheap chariles regulars.

Just as the "tourists" walking up and down the "attraction called bangla road" taking pictures and little else are killing Bangla, so are the guys who expect prices to remain same over 10 years and complain that bangla bars are over priced at 100 baht compared to their chalong expat dive at 60 baht (or now it seems 45 baht vs some on bangla at 80). Where ever i am, I don't go from my local dive bar to the main nightlife area and expect even remotely the same prices.

But also, i don't argue, bar owners need to up their game as well, but main complaint they they are told is "prices prices prices", one of the biggest things they can do little about if they want to actually stay in business

Edit: actually, let me ask you. What would make it more "fun" for you and make you inclined to go there?

Edited July 25, 2015 by Lashay