Cops raid Phuket massage parlours in anti-human trafficking drive: VIDEO

[brewsterbudgen]

Has that happened? Undercover police are usually used to bust prostitution taking place on the premises (brothels) or underage girls.

It could easily happen. Why do you think it hasn't?

I don't think it has, as nothing illegal would have been committed.

[NamKangMan]

Has that happened? Undercover police are usually used to bust prostitution taking place on the premises (brothels) or underage girls.

It could easily happen. Why do you think it hasn't?

I don't think it has, as nothing illegal would have been committed.

An undercover policeman walks into an establishment, choses a girl, and goes upstairs. They have sex, and he pays her money.

This proves prostitution, the girl is arrested, and the the business is shut down, possibly with management being arrested as well.

It hasn't happened because of corruption, but it's easy to prove the offence.

In many cases, sex doesn't even have to take place, just the offer of sex for money.

[brewsterbudgen]

Has that happened? Undercover police are usually used to bust prostitution taking place on the premises (brothels) or underage girls.

It could easily happen. Why do you think it hasn't?

I don't think it has, as nothing illegal would have been committed.

An undercover policeman walks into an establishment, choses a girl, and goes upstairs. They have sex, and he pays her money.

This proves prostitution, the girl is arrested, and the the business is shut down, possibly with management being arrested as well.

It hasn't happened because of corruption, but it's easy to prove the offence.

In many cases, sex doesn't even have to take place, just the offer of sex for money.

If it happens on the premises there is an offence. In your own home or hotel, there is no offence. That's what I meant by "private".

Edited February 6, 2015 by brewsterbudgen

[NamKangMan]

@ brewsterbugden

Not true. The "venue" where the sexual service takes place is irrelevant.

Just the fact there has been an "offer and acceptance" (which is a verbal contract) for sexual services for payment, constitutes the offence.

It could be your own home, a hotel, the beach, a toilet cubicle in a nightclub - wherever.

Sex for money = prostitution, which is illegal in Thailand.

Your focus is on the difficulty in proving the offence, rather than whether the offence takes place.

Edited February 6, 2015 by NamKangMan

[LivinLOS]

Well I listed the law, and its very clearly not that.. You have to start making leaps like prostitutes are not being promiscuous and trying to redefine what 'is' is to wrangle around it..

While actual sex worker rights groups are campaigning to have it decriminalized. And prostitutes are being arrested in other parts of the country.

A tiny minority of prostitutes are being arrested in raids on bars/brothels or for streetwalking. But are they being charged with anything? I doubt it. To decriminalise it would be to admit it's happening and is tolerated. Far better to regulate it as part of the entertainment law, as it is now. No gogo girl, bargirl, massage girl (or boys) need to worry. As long as they are 18+ and Thai, they will be able to continue to operate and so can their customers.

Thats absolute nonsense..

THey just raided a place and arrested the prostitutes and mamasan.. Not streetwalking and exactly who you say dont need to worry.

[LivinLOS]

If it happens on the premises there is an offence. In your own home or hotel, there is no offence. That's what I meant by "private".

OK so your now changing your story.. and the massage establishments that started this debate clearly are breaking the law..

Hence making a mockery of the cop taking the media along and saying all is fine here ??

Exactly as you have argued against up to now.

[brewsterbudgen]

If it happens on the premises there is an offence. In your own home or hotel, there is no offence. That's what I meant by "private".

OK so your now changing your story.. and the massage establishments that started this debate clearly are breaking the law..

Hence making a mockery of the cop taking the media along and saying all is fine here ??

Exactly as you have argued against up to now.

Nope, I've never denied that prostitution taking place on the premises is illegal, whether it's in a massage parlour, gogo or bar. I'm well aware that it is, knowing a number of bars and bar owners that have been busted for allowing it to happen on their premises. However, paying for sex in a non-promiscuous manner (which I accept is open to interpretation) but which would cover privately paying someone for sex, is not illegal in Thailand. The legislation makes it clear what is not allowed, leaving what is allowed rather ambiguous. But it's a nonsense to state "prostitution is illegal" when it clearly is allowed and is, and always has been, a part of the culture.

[LivinLOS]

Correct. It's illegal if carried out in a promiscuous manner. Otherwise if between consenting adults, it doesn't come within that Act. That is the beauty of the barfine and the massage parlour - nothing promiscuous.

Nope, I've never denied that prostitution taking place on the premises is illegal, whether it's in a massage parlour, gogo or bar. I'm well aware that it is, knowing a number of bars and bar owners that have been busted for allowing it to happen on their premises. However, paying for sex in a non-promiscuous manner (which I accept is open to interpretation) but which would cover privately paying someone for sex, is not illegal in Thailand. The legislation makes it clear what is not allowed, leaving what is allowed rather ambiguous. But it's a nonsense to state "prostitution is illegal" when it clearly is allowed and is, and always has been, a part of the culture.

Sometimes I struggle to get to the real meaning of what people post.. First you say one thing, which I deny, then you spend pages to come back and agree..

Prostitution is illegal... Evidenced by

1) a fairly clear law one which requires a monogamous prostitute to attempt to redefine what "is" is..

2) recent arrests of prostitutes, both streetwalkers and on site workers

3) attempts to decriminalize it by sex workers groups

The fact that a law is routinely ignored for profit in Thailand, should not be a surprise.. The fact a top cop is pretending nothing is happening wrong, when its his job to enforce the law, is whats faintly comical.

[brewsterbudgen]

Correct. It's illegal if carried out in a promiscuous manner. Otherwise if between consenting adults, it doesn't come within that Act. That is the beauty of the barfine and the massage parlour - nothing promiscuous.

Nope, I've never denied that prostitution taking place on the premises is illegal, whether it's in a massage parlour, gogo or bar. I'm well aware that it is, knowing a number of bars and bar owners that have been busted for allowing it to happen on their premises. However, paying for sex in a non-promiscuous manner (which I accept is open to interpretation) but which would cover privately paying someone for sex, is not illegal in Thailand. The legislation makes it clear what is not allowed, leaving what is allowed rather ambiguous. But it's a nonsense to state "prostitution is illegal" when it clearly is allowed and is, and always has been, a part of the culture.

Sometimes I struggle to get to the real meaning of what people post.. First you say one thing, which I deny, then you spend pages to come back and agree..

Prostitution is illegal... Evidenced by

1) a fairly clear law one which requires a monogamous prostitute to attempt to redefine what "is" is..

2) recent arrests of prostitutes, both streetwalkers and on site workers

3) attempts to decriminalize it by sex workers groups

The fact that a law is routinely ignored for profit in Thailand, should not be a surprise.. The fact a top cop is pretending nothing is happening wrong, when its his job to enforce the law, is whats faintly comical.

If a massage shop operates primarily as a massage shop, with any extras provided discreetly and privately, it's likely to be operating within the confines of the Entertainment Places Act that covers such establishments. I can only imagine this Phuket parlour was not acting discreetly enough.

Show me a person, client or prostitute, that has been charged with having 'paid for' sex, as opposed to soliciting or running a brothel, and I might accept that prostitution is illegal in Thailand. But as it's endemic and part of the culture, and the legislation is deliberately worded to allow it (with restrictions), I don't think you will be able to.

[smotherb]

Maybe pimps, maybe boyfriends or husbands. But certainly there to kick your teeth in if you step out of line.

Something very sad about seeing a young Thai couple with a small child drive up to Nana or Soi Cowboy on a motor cycle. Mum get's off doled up for the nights work whilst dad takes child home. Seen this a few times whilst sipping a cold one. Their business, not mine, but sad.

It's just another job mate; don't let your Western morality confuse the issue. A couple more short-times and mama can buy a new bicycle for the kid and a bottle of Regency for daddy.

[LivinLOS]

Correct. It's illegal if carried out in a promiscuous manner. Otherwise if between consenting adults, it doesn't come within that Act. That is the beauty of the barfine and the massage parlour - nothing promiscuous.

Nope, I've never denied that prostitution taking place on the premises is illegal, whether it's in a massage parlour, gogo or bar. I'm well aware that it is, knowing a number of bars and bar owners that have been busted for allowing it to happen on their premises. However, paying for sex in a non-promiscuous manner (which I accept is open to interpretation) but which would cover privately paying someone for sex, is not illegal in Thailand. The legislation makes it clear what is not allowed, leaving what is allowed rather ambiguous. But it's a nonsense to state "prostitution is illegal" when it clearly is allowed and is, and always has been, a part of the culture.

Sometimes I struggle to get to the real meaning of what people post.. First you say one thing, which I deny, then you spend pages to come back and agree..

Prostitution is illegal... Evidenced by

1) a fairly clear law one which requires a monogamous prostitute to attempt to redefine what "is" is..

2) recent arrests of prostitutes, both streetwalkers and on site workers

3) attempts to decriminalize it by sex workers groups

The fact that a law is routinely ignored for profit in Thailand, should not be a surprise.. The fact a top cop is pretending nothing is happening wrong, when its his job to enforce the law, is whats faintly comical.

If a massage shop operates primarily as a massage shop, with any extras provided discreetly and privately, it's likely to be operating within the confines of the Entertainment Places Act that covers such establishments. I can only imagine this Phuket parlour was not acting discreetly enough.

Show me a person, client or prostitute, that has been charged with having 'paid for' sex, as opposed to soliciting or running a brothel, and I might accept that prostitution is illegal in Thailand. But as it's endemic and part of the culture, and the legislation is deliberately worded to allow it (with restrictions), I don't think you will be able to.

These are not massage shops.. They are B2B soapys... Ab op nuat.. With a fishbowl, pimp / mamasan and big baths.. Your making totally invalid comparisons..

I linked directly to a story just last week where 3 women were charged with 'prostitution'.. The mamasan also, but the workers, not soliciting, not streetwalking, operating in a private setting.. Did you even read the link ??

[brewsterbudgen]

If a massage shop operates primarily as a massage shop, with any extras provided discreetly and privately, it's likely to be operating within the confines of the Entertainment Places Act that covers such establishments. I can only imagine this Phuket parlour was not acting discreetly enough.

Show me a person, client or prostitute, that has been charged with having 'paid for' sex, as opposed to soliciting or running a brothel, and I might accept that prostitution is illegal in Thailand. But as it's endemic and part of the culture, and the legislation is deliberately worded to allow it (with restrictions), I don't think you will be able to.

These are not massage shops.. They are B2B soapys... Ab op nuat.. With a fishbowl, pimp / mamasan and big baths.. Your making totally invalid comparisons..

I linked directly to a story just last week where 3 women were charged with 'prostitution'.. The mamasan also, but the workers, not soliciting, not streetwalking, operating in a private setting.. Did you even read the link ??

Have a look at The Entertainment Act 1966. It was specifically created to regulate soapies etc. This one must have upset the wrong people, but the sopaies (which mainly cater to Thais and other Asians) operate legally. You seem to be on a mission with this! If selling of sex was completely illegal, instead of being tightly regulated which it is, Thailand would be very different!

I'm not sure you read your own link, as it refers to a raid on a karaoke bar in Chiang Mai, not a soapie or massage shop, which this thread is about. It will be interesting to see if the prostitutes from the karaoke bar are actually charged; just because a local paper reports it and has been translated into English, doesn't convince me!!

[LivinLOS]

If selling of sex was completely illegal, instead of being tightly regulated which it is, Thailand would be very different!

What like riding a motorbike without a helmet being legal because so many people do it.. A lack of enforcement, due to being paid via corruption to look the other way.. Does not make something legal.

I'm not sure you read your own link, as it refers to a raid on a karaoke bar in Chiang Mai, not a soapie or massage shop, which this thread is about. It will be interesting to see if the prostitutes from the karaoke bar are actually charged; just because a local paper reports it and has been translated into English, doesn't convince me!!

You said :show me a person client or prostitute that has been charged with having paid for sex".. This happened.. This week !!!

You can stick your head in the sand and say "no it didnt" but that just makes you more wrong.. They were arrested for the crime of prostitution.. Explain how that arrest was done if thats not a crime.

How about http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121877-pattaya-police-volunteers-swoop-on-uzbeki-girls/

Private transaction, in a hotel room, the exact definition of what you say is legal and yet "The four ladies were arrested and charged with prostitution. South Pattaya Investigators will process the case according to the law."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254754-kinnaree-palace-gentlemans-club-raided-by-immigration/

"26 women suspected of engaging in prostitution were detained and later paid fines at Pattaya Police Station"

Edited February 9, 2015 by LivinLOS

[A1Str8]

If they were really against human trafficking, they would get to the root of it instead of molesting people in massage parlors.

[brewsterbudgen]

If selling of sex was completely illegal, instead of being tightly regulated which it is, Thailand would be very different!

What like riding a motorbike without a helmet being legal because so many people do it.. A lack of enforcement, due to being paid via corruption to look the other way.. Does not make something legal.

I'm not sure you read your own link, as it refers to a raid on a karaoke bar in Chiang Mai, not a soapie or massage shop, which this thread is about. It will be interesting to see if the prostitutes from the karaoke bar are actually charged; just because a local paper reports it and has been translated into English, doesn't convince me!!

You said :show me a person client or prostitute that has been charged with having paid for sex".. This happened.. This week !!!

You can stick your head in the sand and say "no it didnt" but that just makes you more wrong.. They were arrested for the crime of prostitution.. Explain how that arrest was done if thats not a crime.

How about http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/121877-pattaya-police-volunteers-swoop-on-uzbeki-girls/

Private transaction, in a hotel room, the exact definition of what you say is legal and yet "The four ladies were arrested and charged with prostitution. South Pattaya Investigators will process the case according to the law."

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/254754-kinnaree-palace-gentlemans-club-raided-by-immigration/

"26 women suspected of engaging in prostitution were detained and later paid fines at Pattaya Police Station"

The first link is about Uzbek women plying their trade in a hotel, as opposed to someone paying for sex in the hotel they're staying in; and no doubt the Uzbekis were advertising their wares "promiscuously", hence the charge!

The second link concerns a daytime, unlicensed club with rooms onsite - i.e. a brothel.

I guess we can continue playing the "last word" game, but it might be best if we just agreed to disagree!

Edited February 9, 2015 by brewsterbudgen

[LivinLOS]

The first link is about Uzbek women plying their trade in a hotel, as opposed to someone paying for sex in the hotel they're staying in; and no doubt the Uzbekis were advertising their wares "promiscuously", hence the charge!

Maybe you missed the "At night, they went to entertainment spots around Walking Street, South Pattaya, and approached foreign men offering sexual favors." and then went back to the hotel.

So in a place is illegal.. On the street is illegal.. Your struggling to define where it isnt illegal

The second link concerns a daytime, unlicensed club with rooms onsite - i.e. a brothel.

I guess we can continue playing the "last word" game, but it might be best if we just agreed to disagree!

And yet they are charged with the crime of "Prostitution".. Something you maintain is not a crime..

How do you get charged and punished with something thats not illegal ??

You can keep denying it.. But I have presented you plenty of evidence.. Of the people charged, fined and punished.. Of the multiple types and examples you keep dreaming up and modifying to evade the issues (when it clearly started from the Phuket town B2B soapies which you said was not illegal.. You appear to have backtracked from that claim at least.. The cop dragging the news media to an illegal soapy and giving it the all clear is plainly 'thainess').. Of the campaigners trying to make it legal.. Etc etc..

[brewsterbudgen]

The first link is about Uzbek women plying their trade in a hotel, as opposed to someone paying for sex in the hotel they're staying in; and no doubt the Uzbekis were advertising their wares "promiscuously", hence the charge!

Maybe you missed the "At night, they went to entertainment spots around Walking Street, South Pattaya, and approached foreign men offering sexual favors." and then went back to the hotel.

So in a place is illegal.. On the street is illegal.. Your struggling to define where it isnt illegal

The second link concerns a daytime, unlicensed club with rooms onsite - i.e. a brothel.

I guess we can continue playing the "last word" game, but it might be best if we just agreed to disagree!

And yet they are charged with the crime of "Prostitution".. Something you maintain is not a crime..

How do you get charged and punished with something thats not illegal ??

You can keep denying it.. But I have presented you plenty of evidence.. Of the people charged, fined and punished.. Of the multiple types and examples you keep dreaming up and modifying to evade the issues (when it clearly started from the Phuket town B2B soapies which you said was not illegal.. You appear to have backtracked from that claim at least.. The cop dragging the news media to an illegal soapy and giving it the all clear is plainly 'thainess').. Of the campaigners trying to make it legal.. Etc etc..

Soliciting on the street is most definitely "illegal"!

To be honest I don't really understand the remainder of your post, and as this getting rather tedious, I'll withdraw.

If you can ever find proof of someone actually being prosecuted for prostitution (not just a vague reference to 'being charged' in a newspaper), let me know!

[LivinLOS]

"26 women suspected of engaging in prostitution were detained and later paid fines at Pattaya Police Station"

"The four ladies were arrested and charged with prostitution. South Pattaya Investigators will process the case according to the law."

"Officials then raided the karaoke bar arresting the owner, one Burmese prostitute and three Thai prostitutes"

Thats just in this thread...

http://www.chiangmainews.com/ecmn/viewfa.php?id=3330

Prostitution is ubiquitous throughout Thailand. It is also illegal (since 1960), and in a sense due to the so-called rules of Thai decency, it remains self-contradictorily immoral, mostly in view of commandments concerning female chastity. Contradictions abound. A hypocrisy often raised by critics is: How do women righteously protect their virginity until married, while men fulfill their masculine promiscuous obligations?

The Ministry of Justice in 2003 did consider legalising prostitution to minimise its more venal, inhumane, and criminal elements, while looking at gaining huge tax returns, though it never happened. It's also well known, and has been widely reported, that the vast majority of Thai male politicians indulge in prostitution. To promote enforcing the law, or to even condemn prostitution, would be outright hypocrisy for some advocates, and also a great loss to their senses.

Empower, an organisation empowering and supporting sex workers throughout Thailand, sees absolutely no reason for this aforementioned loss of dignity. Liz Hilton, who has been with Empower since 1992, and helps run the Can Do Bar (run by sex workers for sex workers) in Chiang Mai Land, outlined more clearly to me the local sex industry.

"From 1992-95 there were still some locked brothels in Chiang Mai that kept women," she explains, though the brothel culture mainly consisted of hilltribe, Burmese or Chinese migrants. "By 1994 there were no Thais in locked brothels," Hilton says.

"When the new prostitution laws came in the long rehabilitation law was changed to a 1,000 baht fine, this made it so the police couldn't extort a lot of money from the girls." The threat of three years in prison gave police leverage in 'taxing' sex workers, says Hilton, though the 1,000 baht fine stopped this. The police soon changed tactics, she says, and knowing that most girls were undocumented in the brothels they changed from "extortion for prostitution, to harbouring undocumented migrants." This in effect closed down all the brothels. "The economic pressures on brothel owners went up with all the illegal women working for them, and because of child labour crackdowns the police had a reason to regularly raid brothels."

So women then went out on the streets and into places like karaoke bars. "The women had freedom of movement," says Hilton. "In the last 3 years we have found only one case of enforced labour in a closed brothel. The industry has developed. But with no political will, it just changed by itself. Imagine development with political will and social support!"

Hilton advocates decriminalising prostitution, for the implementation of labour laws, improving working conditions, having social security for workers, and improving occupational health and safety for workers. Decriminalisation may also prevent the police from corralling their regular under-the-table bounties - a kind of taxation without representation.

Funny to see that having sex. and then charging the girls with the crime of prostitution is defended right from the higher ranks.. Mot just a one off..

Have sex, flash your badge and skip the bill - The Nation, September 5, 2003

We try not to cover issues that are already well-covered in the local press, but this one had a funny slant---watch for to be reprinted in the Weird or Odd news sections of the international press: Acting Suthisarn Police chief Colonel Varanvas Karunyathat defended the police action, saying that the officers involved needed to have sex with the masseuses to gain evidence for the arrest. He added that the police confiscated hundreds of used condoms from Chuwit's massage parlours.

[thaibeachlovers]

I never feel sad for them, as it is their choice. They could work in the rice fields for 3,000 a month, but CHOOSE the easy path to "riches". In their shoes, I'd probably do the same.

Yeah ! that is a choice ? rice field or prostitution to get rich ! It s called modern slavery...and sexpats or sextourist are those who encourage this kind of slavery...telling the system : "yeah go on, send me more girls, this is the right choice" for the girls.

By the way, once the girls start to get rich, she (or her family) will have a higher level of living....and she will need to go on with this level by never stop having sex with other sextourists... she will need things she didn t need before, like her first Ipad, then after a while, it will be broken, she will need to buy new one, so need to sell her <removed> to an other man....etc...etc...etc...this is modern slavery.

Most of my life I was exploited, overworked and underpaid for what I did, but no one went to bat for me.

Prostitution as carried out with farangs in Thailand is an easy way to make money, and carries little of the risk of a streetwalker in the UK. It's entirely their choice whether they do it or not, so the "slavery" argument does not wash at all.

However, if you feel so strongly, feel free to set up alternative work for them to do that returns as much income.

Does your opinion of prostitution also apply to that in New Zealand where it is a legal occupation?