Thai National Parks ordered to charge foreigners tenfold

[Squeegee]

Thailand get stuffed.

[cumgranosalum]

Stealthy discrimination. Because whilst all the locals are getting 20 - 30 % less admission fee with there discount coupons that were printed in local newspapers or posted through their letterboxes before Summer began, something that tourists would not have access to, those same tourists are all paying the full price.

I used to live in Cornwall in the UK for a good few years, and at the beginning of every Summer the prices in the cafes, pasty and ice cream shops would all go up ready for the arrival of the 'emmets', but regular local customers would still be discreetly charged at 'off season prices' It may well be illegal to have 2 tier pricing and discriminatory practices in the UK, but businesses will find ways around it to maximise profit.

Firstly it wasn't 1000%, secondly it was illegal and thirdly it hardly EVER happened. If you really think that shopkeepers and sales staff couldbe bothered with working out discounts on a pasty for a local when the've got 30 customers waiting at the counter, you've got know idea of what happens in the West country in the summer - however, you personally might have been charges extra with an attitude like that!

Well I lived in Cornwall for 28 years, so it's not what I think - it's what I know...

No need to work out discounts - its not high finance. Obviously it didn't happen in large stores like Tesco, but a regular local customer that goes into his small family run bakery every day and buys a pasty for say £2.00 still got charged £2.00 in the Summer when the marked price was hiked up to £2.25 for the tourist season. I'm not sure it is actually 'illegal' to knock something off the marked price anyway - just only illegal to try and charge more than the marked price.

But you believe what you want.

Sorry my lover, i've lived there longer than you, me and my family worked all the markets and had a catering business. So go teach your granny to suck eggs.

[Tomtomtom69]

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The increase there and at other parks was made in response to an announcement from the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department that admission fees for foreigners should be made consistent throughout the country as of Sunday.. should read as.. admission fees for people should be made consistent throughout the country. Seriously is there any other country in the world where foreigners are required to pay more to visit an attraction than residents ??

Yes Vietnam does the same.

I will not visit any place that charges me more than anyone else. If anything I would expect a senior discount below the local price. Anything over that I will not pay.

I have started withholding giving tip in all but the most extreme situations. Trying to fit in with the culture.

Apart from one location in Hue, Vietnam has dropped dual pricing.

[Tomtomtom69]

Sooo much self righteous indignation being stirred up over a measly 360 BHT difference in cost for admission.

I wonder.... Lets imagine a different scenario:- Hypothetically, tomorrow it's announced that all Thai residents will pay 400BHT entry to NP's and tourists will only pay 40BHT in a bid to attract more visitors,

How many of the sanctimonious ones currently whining about discrimination and racism will still be moaning so vocally then?? How many of you will turn up at the NP's and say that's not fair - I must insist on also paying the full 400 baht that locals have to pay because it's still only a small amount of money for me.?

I suspect very, few if any at all - because you will see yourselves as simply getting a good deal and instantly abandon your highly moralistic views on discrimination or racism.

Why would your frankly ludicrous scenario make any difference to the issue here?

Two tier pricing based on nationality is wrong.

It doesn't matter who is discriminated against.

Discrimination is always wrong, no matter who is being discriminated against.

That's absolutely correct and in fact, there are places in Thailand where Thais are discriminated against in their own country, in favor of foreign tourists/expats.

Example 1: some Khao San road guesthouses won't accept Thais as guests

Example 2: some Thaniya (Silom Road) Japanese entertainment complexes don't accept Thais or other non-Japanese foreigners entering their establishments, except Thai staff or maybe if in the company of Japanese guests

Example 3: some motorcycle rental shops in major tourist areas don't allow Thais to rent their scooters/motorcycles

[Tomtomtom69]

F..k the parks.

But that learns others to do the same.

... to charge (10 times) more.

This double price mentality will spread and scatter in the normal live.

To pay for water, food, transportation, etc a special foreigners white - black, long nose price.

That is discriminatory.

would it be discriminatory to charge for water, food, transportation such a price that only rich foreigners could pay effectively excluding locals from being able to eat, drink or go anywhere ?

Discrimination means excluding a person or group from something through actions.

No farang is being excluded here.

They are not being charged such an amount that they could not afford it.

the simple measure of discrimination is -: Is anyone being disadvantaged ?

If you are in such a pathetic way that as a foreigner you cant afford $15 entry fee to a national park, then you need to head home

That is NOT discrimination

I wish you a lot of money in your life.

There are also many european students who have long saved for their S-E Asia journey.

They would maybe like to visit many parks.

But they are not so rich.

Maybe they are disadvantaged?

You're right. I think it's reasonable to say that for many foreign tourists, $15 or 10 Euros or whatever is too much to pay for visiting a national park, which in Thailand aren't really all that impressive anyway. Back home most national parks have free entry, are cleaner and more interesting and just like anywhere else in the world, the absolute cost of something, relative to it's value for money is what I use to determine whether I can afford it.

For example, paying $7 for a piece of cake is too much. Many people can't afford to spend so much money on something that should only cost around $2-3 at most. Similarly, paying $200 for a hotel room when you can find a half decent place for only $25 is another example. Sure, even most Thais could afford these things but by doing so they'd have less money left over for more essential things.

So therefore I'd say, spending tons of money on national park entrance fees when you could put your hard earned money to better use makes them unaffordable. But anyway "outboard" I choose not to visit Thai national parks because I can't afford to throw away hundreds of Baht that I could put to much better use on something else.

[Tomtomtom69]

F..k the parks.

But that learns others to do the same.

... to charge (10 times) more.

This double price mentality will spread and scatter in the normal live.

To pay for water, food, transportation, etc a special foreigners white - black, long nose price.

That is discriminatory.

would it be discriminatory to charge for water, food, transportation such a price that only rich foreigners could pay effectively excluding locals from being able to eat, drink or go anywhere ?

Discrimination means excluding a person or group from something through actions.

No farang is being excluded here.

They are not being charged such an amount that they could not afford it.

the simple measure of discrimination is -: Is anyone being disadvantaged ?

If you are in such a pathetic way that as a foreigner you cant afford $15 entry fee to a national park, then you need to head home

That is NOT discrimination

I wish you a lot of money in your life.

There are also many european students who have long saved for their S-E Asia journey.

They would maybe like to visit many parks.

But they are not so rich.

Maybe they are disadvantaged?

You're right. I think it's reasonable to say that for many foreign tourists, $15 or 10 Euros or whatever is too much to pay for visiting a national park, which in Thailand aren't really all that impressive anyway. Back home most national parks have free entry, are cleaner and more interesting and just like anywhere else in the world, the absolute cost of something, relative to it's value for money is what I use to determine whether I can afford it.

For example, paying $7 for a piece of cake is too much. Many people can't afford to spend so much money on something that should only cost around $2-3 at most. Similarly, paying $200 for a hotel room when you can find a half decent place for only $25 is another example. Sure, even most Thais could afford these things but by doing so they'd have less money left over for more essential things.

So therefore I'd say, spending tons of money on national park entrance fees when you could put your hard earned money to better use makes them unaffordable. But anyway "outboard" I choose not to visit Thai national parks because I can't afford to throw away hundreds of Baht that I could put to much better use on something else.

[willyumiii]

I speak some Thai, but am in no way fluent in the language.

I am wondering if Thais even have a word for discrimination in their language.

Can anyone confirm that they do?

I do not think they grasp the concept of discrimination.

To them, you are Thai or you are not.

If you are not Thai, you are not really people.

Even the Thai word for a half Thai child translates to " half person".

You are just something that is here in their country.

Something with plenty of money.

[Shadychris]

F..k the parks.

But that learns others to do the same.

... to charge (10 times) more.

This double price mentality will spread and scatter in the normal live.

To pay for water, food, transportation, etc a special foreigners white - black, long nose price.

That is discriminatory.

would it be discriminatory to charge for water, food, transportation such a price that only rich foreigners could pay effectively excluding locals from being able to eat, drink or go anywhere ?

Discrimination means excluding a person or group from something through actions.

No farang is being excluded here.

They are not being charged such an amount that they could not afford it.

the simple measure of discrimination is -: Is anyone being disadvantaged ?

If you are in such a pathetic way that as a foreigner you cant afford $15 entry fee to a national park, then you need to head home

That is NOT discrimination

I wish you a lot of money in your life.

There are also many european students who have long saved for their S-E Asia journey.

They would maybe like to visit many parks.

But they are not so rich.

Maybe they are disadvantaged?

You're right. I think it's reasonable to say that for many foreign tourists, $15 or 10 Euros or whatever is too much to pay for visiting a national park, which in Thailand aren't really all that impressive anyway. Back home most national parks have free entry, are cleaner and more interesting and just like anywhere else in the world, the absolute cost of something, relative to it's value for money is what I use to determine whether I can afford it.

For example, paying $7 for a piece of cake is too much. Many people can't afford to spend so much money on something that should only cost around $2-3 at most. Similarly, paying $200 for a hotel room when you can find a half decent place for only $25 is another example. Sure, even most Thais could afford these things but by doing so they'd have less money left over for more essential things.

So therefore I'd say, spending tons of money on national park entrance fees when you could put your hard earned money to better use makes them unaffordable. But anyway "outboard" I choose not to visit Thai national parks because I can't afford to throw away hundreds of Baht that I could put to much better use on something else.

To be fair "Back home most national parks have free entry, are cleaner and more interesting" is due to the fact that they are well funded through Lottery award scheme money, charities, Government subsidies and grants etc etc,

So not surprising they are better kept by the National Trust which itself also raises money by admission fees to sites such as Stonehenge etc. Also a lot of those National parks have many road networks accessing and running through them - pretty much impossible to set up ticket barriers on all of them, especially in the case of say Dartmoor which has a major trunk road running smack through the middle of it!

[Tomtomtom69]

The increase there and at other parks was made in response to an announcement from the National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department that admission fees for foreigners should be made consistent throughout the country as of Sunday.. should read as.. admission fees for people should be made consistent throughout the country. Seriously is there any other country in the world where foreigners are required to pay more to visit an attraction than residents ??

I think most Asian countries do it. Even in Singapore, foreigners have to pay to enter the grounds of the presidential palace (the Istana) while it is free for locals. However, in an interesting twist, locals have to pay S$100 to enter the casinos in Singapore while entry is free for foreigners :-) In Canada, native peoples get free entry to museums, etc., while Euro-Canadian citizens have to pay.

Not most, only some Asian countries. It seems to be most prevalent in Thailand though. Dual pricing is common, albeit to a lesser extent than in Thailand in Cambodia, Laos (where it applies only to a limited number of tourist attractions), Myanmar (where it is still quite extensive but slowly the gap is shrinking), India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and apparently Iran too (although I read something somewhere about Iran possibly stopping the practice). Singapore is an interesting example you have stated despite being a rich country, although I can think of only one example of dual pricing in Singapore other than the one you have mentioned, which I didn't know about until now.

Dual pricing was also common in eastern Europe during the communist era, and even in Italy they had different prices for different nationalities, depending on how much Italians were charged to visit attractions in those countries. Not sure if these countries still practice it these days.

On a positive note, China stopped dual pricing back in 1996 and Vietnam has mostly eliminated it too, despite being much poorer than Thailand. It's only on a local level that foreigners might get ripped off, but the government no longer allows dual pricing, unlike in Thailand.

[Squeegee]

Nope. Sorry, not one satang. I didn't mean to be so rude, it was not me it was my food.

[Tomtomtom69]

I would imagine that the majority of members of this forum apart from bird watchers don't visit Thai national parks all that often. If Thailand had a system like the British National Trust then this may alleviate the problem for frequent park visitors and for tourists that intend to visit National Parks, palaces and other places of interest where there are Government entry fees.

These 'season tickets' can be bought from the National Trust and then allow free entry into venues. There is for example one specifically for London which gets onto things like the "London Eye'. I'm sure the powers that be in this Country could devise a set up whereby these could be bought online from overseas if needs be thereby generating foreign exchange.

All of these tickets bought online would be one price.

Actually your post has made me aware of something that I hadn`t thought of and is very interesting.

Does anyone know if it is possible to acquire season tickets for anything in Thailand? Such as forests, parks, theme parks, cinemas, on any public transport systems and so on?

Or are season ticket schemes something the Thais consider as bad for business?

Nope. I don't think the Thais have any knowledge of this concept and can't think of one type of attraction or business that offers this, except maybe getting discounts for using the Skytrain if you purchase a long-term pass rather than a single ticket.

[arunsakda]

I'm not an expert on the Thai constitution or accommodation laws but unless legislation exists that specifically makes this practice illegal you all might as well stop bickering.

Discrimination by nationality IS discrimination but unfortunately not all discrimination is illegal discrimination*.

*They rip off the Japanese tourists in Guam and Hawaii ($30+ to enter a crap nightclub) by offering a huge "local discount".

(To be clear anyone with valid local ID will get the discount regardless of nationality). I have wondered before how this could be legal?

I also thought about senior discounts, "Ladies' nights", industry discounts, union discounts and so on.

So I looked it up and this all falls under the subject of "price discrimination" a recognized field of research in economics.

Many, many legal challenges have been mounted in various US States regarding these discounts and basically they all fail except under

certain States' public accommodation laws, and these are limited to certain situations.

Edited February 8, 2015 by arunsakda

[wobalt]

Was in Kaeng Krachan some weeks ago and was told even you have a red book you would not get the discount there. Only if you have a Thai passport.

[draftvader]

Thread cleaned up as best as possible. I had been watching to see if any of the people involved in the flame war had any intention of stopping it and they didn't. I have taken out huge portions of the past 24 hours of posts because, even though they often made on topic points, they contained flaming and replies to flames. If you feel that you are being flamed then either walk away or report it. If you carry it on then invariably you will be flaming. This thread is very long and has been moderated by a number of moderators. If you feel we have left a post in that is a flaming post then please let us know using the report function.

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

Also a post containing Thai language and posts quoting it have been removed.

English is the only acceptable language anywhere on ThaiVisa including Classifieds, except within the Thai language forum, where of course using Thai is allowed.

To this point posts have been removed. If you continue on this path then posters can be removed.

Please be civil, debate the topic and not each other.

[Shadychris]

Was in Kaeng Krachan some weeks ago and was told even you have a red book you would not get the discount there. Only if you have a Thai passport.

That is regrettable, but that is an example of the policy not being enforced correctly, rather than the policy itself...

In your case with a red book you should have been allowed in at the lower price as that is proof that you have 'permanent' resident status

Despite the sensationalist way the headline of the article is worded, the policy and pricing structure is based purely on resident or non-resident status. A lot of other people posting are conveniently playing down or ignoring this fact and claiming it is about nationality, race or skin colour to further their arguments of racial discrimination by Thailand.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts have been removed. Please stay on topic and post in a civil manner.

[cumgranosalum]

the money from foreigners makes little difference to the overall finance of the National Parks in Thailand.

[cumgranosalum]

When many Thais are paid very low salaries and hence pay little if any tax there is no other realistic way of maintaining these places without making up the short fall from foreign visitors.

If you dont want to pay, and I can understand why you wouldnt want to, dont go.

One big thing that gets me, and you cant blame Thailand for, is that Thailand now owns a few football clubs in the UK and I would guess elsewhere. We couldnt do that and they shouldnt be able to. But dont blame Thailand blame the governments of the countries that allow it to happen

Admissions contribute little to the running of the parks - but you raise a good point about "not going" - if you over-price an item people stop buying it...... where's the advantage in that?

Another downside is that it tarnishes Thailand's image as a tourist destination, and let's face it they've had quite enough of that in the past year or so.

[hawker9000]

When many Thais are paid very low salaries and hence pay little if any tax there is no other realistic way of maintaining these places without making up the short fall from foreign visitors.

If you dont want to pay, and I can understand why you wouldnt want to, dont go.

One big thing that gets me, and you cant blame Thailand for, is that Thailand now owns a few football clubs in the UK and I would guess elsewhere. We couldnt do that and they shouldnt be able to. But dont blame Thailand blame the governments of the countries that allow it to happen

'Not sure I agree. Doesn't everyone in Thailand, regardless of salary, pay VAT for example? Doesn't the government collect import duties? The point is, governments get revenue from many sources. Smart governments realize that investment in their industries (and tourism is no exception) yields its rewards when businesses in these industries are patronized. The rewards from investments in the tourist industry are quite obviously realized when the tourists COME and eat in restaurants, stay in hotels, shop in stores, etc., etc., etc.! ALL of which collect VAT, FOR the government!! It's the short-sighted view, but so characteristically thai, to be milking tourists for the cash needed to maintain national parks with such openly punitive, openly discriminatory, pricing schemes. THEN there's the question of where this extra cash actually goes, and the value for money OF these parks (on which many readers have commented - many not so positively...) at the OLD discriminatory entry-fee level. let alone the even MORE discriminatory, MORE antagonistic, NEW entry-fee level.

[wwest5829]

Bangkok Post has an editor criticizing this policy in today's paper.

[outboard]

in relation to the repeated postings calling this discrimination

I

NTERNATIONAL CONVENTION ON THE ELIMINATION OF ALL FORMS OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION

PART I
Article 1

1. In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

2. This Convention shall not apply to distinctions, exclusions, restrictions or preferences made by a State Party to this Convention between citizens and non-citizens.

3. Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as affecting in any way the legal provisions of States Parties concerning nationality, citizenship or naturalization, provided that such provisions do not discriminate against any particular nationality.

4. Special measures taken for the sole purpose of securing adequate advancement of certain racial or ethnic groups or individuals requiring such protection as may be necessary in order to ensure such groups or individuals equal enjoyment or exercise of human rights and fundamental freedoms shall not be deemed racial discrimination, provided, however, that such measures do not, as a consequence, lead to the maintenance of separate rights for different racial groups and that they shall not be continued after the objectives for which they were taken have been achieved.

Therefore the policy of charging foreigners 10 times more or giving Thais a 90% discount is not racist because of paragraphs 1,2 & 4

[Showbags]

I went through ky today on a licence for thai price.....so lets see how long it takes to come into effect...

[Shadychris]

I went through ky today on a licence for thai price.....so lets see how long it takes to come into effect...

You were lucky, and it just highlights that staff at different NP's are enforcing the policy differently . Your licence is not proof that you have 'permanent resident' status, just that you had a certificate of residency when you obtained it. The only proof of permanent residency is either blue or red book, or a Thai Passport.

[connda]

Just an idea: But for those of us with the willingness to attempt to bring this discriminatory price gouging into the international light-of-day, how about printing this article and then forwarding it to your own country's ambassador along with copies to to your Congressional representatives or Ministers of Parliament, and ask that your country puts pressure on the Thai government to either; 1) stand down on the discrimination, or 2) implement the same policies at your country's national parks and tourist attractions and directly aim reciprocal price gouging at Thai Nationals visiting your country.

This is what I'm going to do, and trust me: I'm not the most optimistic person in the world, but it's better than sitting on our collective asses and doing nothing.

[steve654]

I'm still thinking of going on a holiday one day to Thailand and was wondering what else foreigners need to pay much more for than a local?

Might as well know a little more before I go I guess although paying 1,000% more just seems a little odd, but it is their country. Maybe Thailand really does not want tourists and has another agenda, who knows.

Edited February 10, 2015 by steve654

[seedy]

Che Son National Park still 200 baht today

[Shadychris]

I'm still thinking of going on a holiday one day to Thailand and was wondering what else foreigners need to pay much more for than a local?

Might as well know a little more before I go I guess although paying 1,000% more just seems a little odd, but it is their country. Maybe Thailand really does not want tourists and has another agenda, who knows.

You will pay non-resident rates at temples and museums, fishing resorts, etc etc. Pretty much all the things that are going to be popular with tourists. Thai people also seem to get slightly lower rates for hotel accommodation - pretty much everything that can be booked in advance I get my Thai partner to do on the phone as she always gets better rates than me ;-)

If you go to markets or local shops there is also a good chance that you will be asked to pay more - learn to count in Thai and a few basic words so you can haggle the price down - it's not that hard. You will find that in markets or local shops where the Thais don't speak English well they will show you the price on a calculator. If you can't make yourself understood in Thai - take it and tap in half the amount and give it back with a big smile. If you don't end up with a price you are comfortable with go somewhere else and try again. Big chain stores such as Tesco Lotus, Big C and in shopping Malls the pricing is consistent. Don't let yourself get fixated on the 1000% figure - NP's are the only places that I can think of where the non-resident price is 10x resident - most times you will find it is double. However in general even the top level prices are still considerably cheaper than what you would pay in your Western home country. The only caveat is things that might be regarded as 'luxury' items - big screen TV's, high end cameras, perfumery etc which are all very similar prices that you would pay in the West. If you find a luxury item that seems to be a very good price, chances are its a fake ;-)

Edited February 10, 2015 by Shadychris

[Shadychris]

Che Son National Park still 200 baht today

Bargain! I mean what can you buy 'back home' for 200 baht?? It's not even paper money - just small change...

[Bluespunk]

Che Son National Park still 200 baht today

For everyone? Thais and non Thai alike?

[AyG]

Bargain! I mean what can you buy 'back home' for 200 baht?? It's not even paper money - just small change...

Oh, I don't know. I could visit Greenwich Park, Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, Regents Park, St. James's Park.

Then in the afternoon I could go to the British Museum, Imperial War Museum, Museum of London, National Gallery, Natural History Museum and Science Museum, Tate Modern and Tate Britain.

The next day I could travel outside London and visit the Peak District, the Lake District, Snowdonia, Dartmoor, Exmoor, the New Forest and the South Downs.

And I'd still have my original 200 Baht left!

And what's more, any Thai person visiting the UK could do exactly the same for the same price.

And any one of these attractions would probably be better value for money, even if they did charge 200 Baht, than a Thai national park charging the same amount.