thefactoryoutlet Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Hello, Someone with an old car has to add water quite often, is it normal ? And why water, I was thiking it should be a special liquid ? Thank you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnynmonic Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 It must have a leak. They are adding water because there's no coolant handy (costs 100 ฿ or so per bottle), or because they're thinking "it will just leak out so what's the point?". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phazey Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Quote possibly a leak at the back end coolant gasket most likely. Water is used because I guess there is no need for anti-freeze..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnynmonic Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Anti-freeze also raises the boiling temp, and prevents corrosion. I'd see about finding the leak. There's really only a few likely places, your local mechanic should find it pretty easily. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooo Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Moved to motoring forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSJ Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 If it's an old car it may need all the coolant hoses replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryB1263 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 If it's a four cylinder it might have a leaking head gasket. Is there any white smoke or the smell of coolant emanating from the exhaust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gerry123 Posted February 11, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted February 11, 2015 If it's a four cylinder it might have a leaking head gasket. Is there any white smoke or the smell of coolant emanating from the exhaust? do 6 and 8 cylinder not have head gaskets then ?? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i claudius Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Add anti freeze as well , but i reckon you have a leak somewhere ,i very rarely have to add any water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lantern Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Probably been around five years since I replaced my radiator, Never added anything since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsxrnz Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Anti-freeze is a bit of an obsolete term these days. Engine Coolant is the modern term, and extends both the boiling point and freezing point as compared to water. It also has corrosion inhibitors that extend the life of the cooling system, keep it cleaner and more efficient. If it's an old car that has only been topped up with water and not Coolant, then it will no doubt be full of sludge and will need flushing to determine if the need to constantly top-up is due to an actual leak and/or a blocked system that is causing some overheating and possible venting of the water via steam. Or it may be as simple as all this in combination with a buggered head gasket. Since it's an old vehicle, I'd recommend the following: 1. Get the system power flushed 2. Replace the thermostat and radiator cap to the manufacturers recommendation 3. Replace any coolant pipes that obviously look as though they are not healthy - i.e signs of perishing or can easily be squeezed that indicates a breakdown of the material. 4. Fill with Coolant/water mixture at the manufacturers recommendation. Any future top ups should also be coolant/water at the same ratio. 5. Observe for leaks and/or usage of coolant. Leaks will be evident as a green liquid. 6. Observe the engine for possible internal leak of coolant to engine. Usually a faulty head gasket. If a white cream is evident at the oil filler cap, and/or white smoke is appearing from the exhaust and a white cream/sludge evident at the exhaust tailpipe, it may be a head gasket or could be a cracked head. Actually, look for this before you even have the system power flushed. Good luck. EDIT: Just had a thought. Dunno how old your car is but if it's a dinosaur (as in 60's 70's) it may be a leaking frost plug. They are prone to failure and corrode easily with a dirty cooling system, often getting a pinhole leak. Those were the days, the annual hacking out of the frost plugs to replace them every winter. I actually had one pop right out by itself one cold night, but I don't think I whacked it all the way in when I replaced it. Edited February 11, 2015 by Gsxrnz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 If it hasn't got a radiator expansion bottle it may "pass" water out if the motor gets really hot. With the car stationary, after a run and hot, let it idle and look underneath the ride for a drip, not counting the air con drip off. When cold have a look in the radiator for a creamy coloured gooo on the cap or floating on the water. Pull out the oil dip stick and see if there is any creamy gooo on the stick. Any creamy gooo shows a head gasket prob. Does the car have a heater ?, a heater has it's own radiator, they sometimes leak/fail, check the front carpets for water. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 In answer to the question posed in the OP: Never. If you need to add water/coolant, there's a problem that needs fixing - the suspects have all been listed by other posters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Yes... basically never. To confirm a head gasket leak ...into the cooling waterI fitted an upturned plastic water bottle into the radiator ... where the cap goes. The big end of the bottle was removed and partly filled with water. Ran the engine and bubbles were seen raising up through the water in the plastic bottle. You need to run the engine for a few minutes to ensure that the bubbles are not entained air. Best to start with a cold engine. When I get back home later today I'll post a pic. Edited February 11, 2015 by JAS21 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Anti-freeze is a bit of an obsolete term these days. Engine Coolant is the modern term, and extends both the boiling point and freezing point as compared to water. It also has corrosion inhibitors that extend the life of the cooling system, keep it cleaner and more efficient. If it's an old car that has only been topped up with water and not Coolant, then it will no doubt be full of sludge and will need flushing to determine if the need to constantly top-up is due to an actual leak and/or a blocked system that is causing some overheating and possible venting of the water via steam. Or it may be as simple as all this in combination with a buggered head gasket. Since it's an old vehicle, I'd recommend the following: 1. Get the system power flushed 2. Replace the thermostat and radiator cap to the manufacturers recommendation 3. Replace any coolant pipes that obviously look as though they are not healthy - i.e signs of perishing or can easily be squeezed that indicates a breakdown of the material. 4. Fill with Coolant/water mixture at the manufacturers recommendation. Any future top ups should also be coolant/water at the same ratio. 5. Observe for leaks and/or usage of coolant. Leaks will be evident as a green liquid. 6. Observe the engine for possible internal leak of coolant to engine. Usually a faulty head gasket. If a white cream is evident at the oil filler cap, and/or white smoke is appearing from the exhaust and a white cream/sludge evident at the exhaust tailpipe, it may be a head gasket or could be a cracked head. Actually, look for this before you even have the system power flushed. Good luck. EDIT: Just had a thought. Dunno how old your car is but if it's a dinosaur (as in 60's 70's) it may be a leaking frost plug. They are prone to failure and corrode easily with a dirty cooling system, often getting a pinhole leak. Those were the days, the annual hacking out of the frost plugs to replace them every winter. I actually had one pop right out by itself one cold night, but I don't think I whacked it all the way in when I replaced it. Also inhibits evaporation too.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Yes... basically never. To confirm a head gasket leak ...into the cooling waterI fitted an upturned plastic water bottle into the radiator ... where the cap goes. The big end of the bottle was removed and partly filled with water. Ran the engine and bubbles were seen raising up through the water in the plastic bottle. You need to run the engine for a few minutes to ensure that the bubbles are not entained air. Best to start with a cold engine. When I get back home later today I'll post a pic. All true but a system that has been sealed and running for a while should not have ANY air to begin with unless it is bleeding into the system while it is not running when the water cools and creates a vacuum on the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) WarpSpeed, on 11 Feb 2015 - 13:36, said:WarpSpeed, on 11 Feb 2015 - 13:36, said: JAS21, on 11 Feb 2015 - 13:12, said:JAS21, on 11 Feb 2015 - 13:12, said: Yes... basically never. To confirm a head gasket leak ...into the cooling waterI fitted an upturned plastic water bottle into the radiator ... where the cap goes. The big end of the bottle was removed and partly filled with water. Ran the engine and bubbles were seen raising up through the water in the plastic bottle. You need to run the engine for a few minutes to ensure that the bubbles are not entained air. Best to start with a cold engine. When I get back home later today I'll post a pic. All true but a system that has been sealed and running for a while should not have ANY air to begin with unless it is bleeding into the system while it is not running when the water cools and creates a vacuum on the system. Warpee ... Yes ..I think that is what happens. The car was using an amazing amount of water ... sucked the 'storage tank' dry just about every time after the engine was stopped, you could watch the level go down. Initially there was just a few bubbles, then a steady stream of small ones and as the engine warmed up some much bigger bubbles. I actually made a video of it. Here's a pick of what I rigged up before getting the head off ... well I got someone to do it for me actually... and looking at the gasket it wasn't clear that it had failed, that surprised me a little as I expected the head to be cut and maybe even a mark on the block ... anyway absolutely no mark. Anyway took the opportunity for a complete top end overhaul including timing belt, tensioner, pulleys etc. Never uses a drop of water now. Engine sounds very nice ... Don't let any 'sealant' ... I used silicon around the bottle...drop into the rad Edited February 11, 2015 by JAS21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionsreplies Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 What is the purpose of doing this ? Yes... basically never. To confirm a head gasket leak ...into the cooling waterI fitted an upturned plastic water bottle into the radiator ... where the cap goes. The big end of the bottle was removed and partly filled with water. Ran the engine and bubbles were seen raising up through the water in the plastic bottle. You need to run the engine for a few minutes to ensure that the bubbles are not entained air. Best to start with a cold engine. When I get back home later today I'll post a pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Mega Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 remove the engine oil cap and see if it milky underneath it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) questionsreplies, on 11 Feb 2015 - 18:34, said:questionsreplies, on 11 Feb 2015 - 18:34, said: What is the purpose of doing this ? JAS21, on 11 Feb 2015 - 13:12, said:JAS21, on 11 Feb 2015 - 13:12, said:Yes... basically never. To confirm a head gasket leak ...into the cooling waterI fitted an upturned plastic water bottle into the radiator ... where the cap goes. The big end of the bottle was removed and partly filled with water. Ran the engine and bubbles were seen raising up through the water in the plastic bottle. You need to run the engine for a few minutes to ensure that the bubbles are not entained air. Best to start with a cold engine. When I get back home later today I'll post a pic. Let me assume that is a serious question ... It's using water ... I can't smell a leak anywhere ... The oil is not milky There is no milky residue when you remove the oil filler cap and put you finger around the inside. There is no water dripping anywhere. The old fashion method of watching for air when you remove the radiator cap really doesn't work. So its pretty certain that the leak is gas side to water side ... however to confirm do as I did or just change the head gasket. DON'T take the radiator cap off when the engine is hot!!! Edited February 11, 2015 by JAS21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterb17 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Modern cars simply do not need topping up- how old is old? If really old- check hoses- and really old radiator caps and thermostat ( am sure a few here will remember those) Hate to say am not sure how to open the bonnet- am sure I should be checking things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Peter has just reminded me ... get a new radiator cap ... first ting to do. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pomthai Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Peter has just reminded me ... get a new radiator cap ... first ting to do. This ^^ - may well be as simple as that. An often forgotten little part. The spring can get weaker and the rubber perish over time. They are designed to maintain a coolant circuit pressure of about 3-7psi. This slightly increases the boiling point. If it has failed it will allow evaporation of coolant to occur at quite a high rate. Change iut and see what happens. Its a very cheap solution. The water pump seals might also have worn. they usually have a weep hole for water to escape which has made it past the seals. Have a look for water there. Its usually the uppermost central pulley on the motor. If there is no white smoke and no oil emulsification (white goo) then its unlikely that there is a head gasket problem and leave replacing that until all other options are exhausted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Peter has just reminded me ... get a new radiator cap ... first ting to do. If no water in the oil then it was a leak between cylinders the bubbles were created by escaping compression into the water jacket, the gasket is not likely to show anything, and in this case there may be water in the cylinder that is bad, but ultimately with an aluminum head you should have had the head decked to true it up, if that wasn't done sadly it may only be a temporary fix, due to a new gasket but eventually the compression will seek out the same low spot, force through the gasket and blow again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Warpee ... reminding people of that fact is useful ... thanks ... but it's pretty standard practice to put an alloy head on a lapping plate every time the head is taken off .. they warp (no pun intended) pretty easy... well on an old motor anyway. It's been running really lovely for many hundred Kms now and not a drop of water used. And it's gassed, as the pic shows, so gets a few extra stresses!! The car is a 1995 Mazda Lantis (1.8) and was gassed around 2007 ... valves and seats were fine surprisingly ..... they were just lapped ...was my wife's car from new and now step-daughter abuses it. Yes ... replace the cap .............................................. before you look anywhere else! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Mega Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Why would gas (I assume LPG or whatever the new flavour is) place any extra stress on an engine/head gasket..... not as though you have raised th compression ratio or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Warpee ... reminding people of that fact is useful ... thanks ... but it's pretty standard practice to put an alloy head on a lapping plate every time the head is taken off .. they warp (no pun intended) pretty easy... well on an old motor anyway. It's been running really lovely for many hundred Kms now and not a drop of water used. And it's gassed, as the pic shows, so gets a few extra stresses!! The car is a 1995 Mazda Lantis (1.8) and was gassed around 2007 ... valves and seats were fine surprisingly ..... they were just lapped ...was my wife's car from new and now step-daughter abuses it. Yes ... replace the cap .............................................. before you look anywhere else! I mostly agree, but we all know............At least those of us who are paying attention, that nothing is "standard practice" in Thailand, especially when it comes to auto's and maintenance of them and can't be taken for granted that they'll be repaired properly. I went to several machine shops for various work done and one in particular (near home as it turned out after I asked many locals of where to find one, but ended up locating it myself) was a large, well equipped shop and very busy. I asked them to clean and bead blast the head off of my Toyota Crown before rebuilding it and they said they had no boiling tank or bead blaster? I was astounded, as cleaning tanks and bead blasters are first priority in most top machines shops I know of. It's like doing surgery without sterilizing the patient or washing your hands first and you can not do a proper inspection on a head without first cleaning as well. While the work was done well outside of that, I took the filthy assembled head home, broke it down, used oven cleaner to clean it properly, took it to get it bead blasted, (found a place again not too far from my home, BTW found both of these places in the English version Thai yellow pages which you can request a copy of) brought it back and clear coated it then re-assembled a brand new looking head and valve cover. BTW The valve cover gasket could not be located anywhere, so I had to hand make a new one, fortunately the head gasket was located. Besides age the main reason I had to redo the head was because the rear spark plug hole had been stripped out and was poorly repaired with a thread insert. The reason it got stripped out is because in a previous life, a clever Thai mechanic had dead ended a coolant hose on the back of head he figured wasn't necessary but it was a straight 6 so it turned out to be a return hose to the rad from the back of the head so the car was overheating the back of the head every time it ran and there was no way to know it, except the valves would start to tighten up and tap from overheating and that was my best indicator there was a problem. It had been getting so hot apparently it also distorted (warped, pun intended) the threads in that cylinder and that was what ruined them and how I found it, was I had misfire and was checking the plugs and half the thread insert came out bonded to the plug and the threads that held it place on the head were all buggered from heat. I was checking the plugs because the car had a misfire and nothing else was showing up as it turns out the misfire was actually compression loss from this cylinder leaking around the poorly repaired spark plug hole. Edited February 12, 2015 by WarpSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarpSpeed Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Why would gas (I assume LPG or whatever the new flavour is) place any extra stress on an engine/head gasket..... not as though you have raised th compression ratio or anything. LP runs hotter, more heat at the top end than regular gasoline (benzine or whatever the flavor of the day is)? Especially between head and combustion chamber can warp the head and burn away a conventional gasket just enough, not that there is any different gaskets made exclusively for LP applications necessarily though, some higher quality gaskets are less likely to be a problem and can withstand a bit more exposure if the head ever so slightly warps.. Edited February 12, 2015 by WarpSpeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Mega Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Bullshit. Whilst LPG cars do have a slightly higher CHT it is nothing near what would be required to warp the head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAS21 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Don .. um..consider the rate of change .. remember the distant past when you did your engineering degree. No ... the stress is greater ... it's very silly not to lap a cylinder head ... and they are just about all alloy now ... when you take it off ...it's a lot biggrr job now to remove than in the old mini days when it was just a few minutes I get my truck ECU remapped on Tuesday ... look forward to your comments on that thread ... enjoy today 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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