US-Thai relations: A question of democracy versus obscurity?

[northernjohn]

In another article today the UN is criticizing. LINK

Thailand must learn that it doesn't live in a bubble IF it wants to be engaged with the West.

Also people should learn that the U N is making suggestions to change a system that has been in affect for 50 years. They recognize the need for change from the way the country was being run and are making suggestions in an effort to help clear up the mess.

Kind of like a back handed way of say we approve of what you are doing.

Also people should be aware of the fact that the U S is calling for Democracy. This is a strange thing to hear from a country who had a president (Bush) appointed by the Supreme Court when the majority of the people voted for his opponent Gore.

It would be interesting to have an accredited poll company take a poll in Thailand and see if the people are happier with the way things are now or do they prefer the way things were before the coup. Never going to happen unfortunately. We will just have to sit here and listen to the whiners complain until the next election. At which time we will know what is really happening now. I personally believe we will find out as a result of all that is going on now Thailand will be a lot better off. Check with me next February.

[angsta]

Preposterous Thai tripe. Terribly written article. Surprising that a newspaper would even publish such tripe.

I am assuming the editor of Asias worst newspaper English language newspaper The Nation was visiting Junta HQ to kiss ass when they managed to sneak this into todays edition. Nice article, brave man Mr Ubon.

I can only assume that Mr Masters degree in International Relations noitom isn't a native English speaker. Is 'tripe' your word of the day? Nice

[baboon]

In another article today the UN is criticizing. LINK

Thailand must learn that it doesn't live in a bubble IF it wants to be engaged with the West.

Also people should learn that the U N is making suggestions to change a system that has been in affect for 50 years. They recognize the need for change from the way the country was being run and are making suggestions in an effort to help clear up the mess.

Kind of like a back handed way of say we approve of what you are doing.

Also people should be aware of the fact that the U S is calling for Democracy. This is a strange thing to hear from a country who had a president (Bush) appointed by the Supreme Court when the majority of the people voted for his opponent Gore.

It would be interesting to have an accredited poll company take a poll in Thailand and see if the people are happier with the way things are now or do they prefer the way things were before the coup. Never going to happen unfortunately. We will just have to sit here and listen to the whiners complain until the next election. At which time we will know what is really happening now. I personally believe we will find out as a result of all that is going on now Thailand will be a lot better off. Check with me next February.

Such a poll would be useless: When before the coup? Two days, two months, two years? What is meant by "The way things are now"? That doesn't really mean anything when you give it a moment's thought. Both sides would just derive whatever they wished from the result as the questions are way too vague...

[GinBoy2]

So, this isn't meant to be a bating question, but i really am bemused by why so many people honestly seem to believe that Thailand has any strategic importance to the US? The press is full of it, reading the endless diatribe on TVF you would come to the conclusion that US SE Asian policy would grind to a halt without Thailand.

I really see it entirely the opposite. In the days of Vietnam, yep Thailand was important, but thats 30 years ago and the world has changed. Communism in SE Asia has fallen by the wayside, Thailand isn't in any way shape or form a player in the South China sea, it's military is 'inwardly focussed' so to say, so why do so many of you insist on this fiction that the US 'needs' Thailand?

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

In another article today the UN is criticizing. LINK

Thailand must learn that it doesn't live in a bubble IF it wants to be engaged with the West.

Also people should learn that the U N is making suggestions to change a system that has been in affect for 50 years. They recognize the need for change from the way the country was being run and are making suggestions in an effort to help clear up the mess.

Kind of like a back handed way of say we approve of what you are doing.

Also people should be aware of the fact that the U S is calling for Democracy. This is a strange thing to hear from a country who had a president (Bush) appointed by the Supreme Court when the majority of the people voted for his opponent Gore.

It would be interesting to have an accredited poll company take a poll in Thailand and see if the people are happier with the way things are now or do they prefer the way things were before the coup. Never going to happen unfortunately. We will just have to sit here and listen to the whiners complain until the next election. At which time we will know what is really happening now. I personally believe we will find out as a result of all that is going on now Thailand will be a lot better off. Check with me next February.

The USSC did not appoint Bush President. It ruled on the unconstitutionality of the Florida Supreme Court allowing extended time beyond what the Florida constitution allowed for a recount. Without a prolonged recount Gore lost the majority vote in Florida to Bush by 1,800 votes. And while Gore did get majority of the US popular vote, he did not get the subsequent majority vote of the electoral college (because of his loss of Florida) that is the required final process for electing the POTUS according to the US Constitution.

When you compare the entirety of the USA constitutional electoral process to determine its Head of Government to the Junta's abolishment of the Thai constitution and self-appointment as Head of Government, the Junta's divergency from a democratic participatory process naturally invites criticism from the USA. It is a fair and honest response.

[tif]

When one is born into privilege and one looks to history to see that it has always been this way, it is difficult to gain another perspective.

For my own experience here in Thailand of over 30 years, I have met on occasions members of the wealthy Bangkok elite.

They do live a separate reality, they have absolutely no connection with the masses. The circles in which they mix are so removed from everyday Thais, they have no inkling of the lives of the working classes.

Even the Bangkok media companies, owned by the elite cannot depict rural people in a drama series without making them a parody, uncouth, laughable country bumpkins.

It is a sad indictment of the ruling class, but true however.

The military come from a similar high class, whose forefathers commanded elephant armies for the aristocracy.

Nothing will change here unless there is a democratically elected government and they are allowed to make the mistakes our early democracies made.

The continual interference in Thai politics by the military, as if it is their right and privilege, will only serve the elite and continue to supress the working classes.

And give rise to ever more rapacious megalomaniac carpetbaggers such as Taksin. Why they are unable to see this defies belief.

[yellowboat]

When one is born into privilege and one looks to history to see that it has always been this way, it is difficult to gain another perspective.

For my own experience here in Thailand of over 30 years, I have met on occasions members of the wealthy Bangkok elite.

They do live a separate reality, they have absolutely no connection with the masses. The circles in which they mix are so removed from everyday Thais, they have no inkling of the lives of the working classes.

Even the Bangkok media companies, owned by the elite cannot depict rural people in a drama series without making them a parody, uncouth, laughable country bumpkins.

It is a sad indictment of the ruling class, but true however.

The military come from a similar high class, whose forefathers commanded elephant armies for the aristocracy.

Nothing will change here unless there is a democratically elected government and they are allowed to make the mistakes our early democracies made.

The continual interference in Thai politics by the military, as if it is their right and privilege, will only serve the elite and continue to supress the working classes.

And give rise to ever more rapacious megalomaniac carpetbaggers such as Taksin. Why they are unable to see this defies belief.

People get the governments they deserve good or bad when they vote and do not vote. Interference will only make matters worse.

Depicting rural people in the media with disrespect is completely nauseating and YOU wonder why they voted for Thaksin. What choices do they have?

[Torrens54]

Some seem to think that the Junta are going to be holding onto power for ever. Some have forgotten that they have promised elections when they can implement reform so all the other principles of democracy that were abused by the previous regime are adhered to.

Of course some that cry "We want Democracy" the loudest are ironically the same people that supported a regime run by an unelected criminal fugitive. Bizzaro world again!

Russel's comments about "Thai citizens feeling that they've been excluded" is the preamble the shin regimes have used to justify acts of terrorism and armed insurrection that have left hundreds of people dead. It is also the narrative used to justify engineered US-backed violence in other nations aimed at regime change.

Russel said "Thai citizens feeling that they've been excluded". Yet not one American said that when thaksin tried to push a free trade agreement though bypassing parliament and the senate. Thai citizens voted for their parliamentarians and they are supposed to represent them. Thai citizens were excluded then. No word from the USA on this exclusion of the Thai citizens. Logic to suit an agenda.

Look at the Siam Paragon bombing. After the bombing, the US Embassy in Thailand neither warned people about the violence, nor condemned it. Instead, the official US Embassy Twitter account congratulated the New England Patriots for winning the Super Bowl. They knew it was a red shirt. That is what the red shirts specialize it. I bet if a PDRC supporter was responsible for the bombing the NY Times would do an analysis of it. Logic to suit an agenda.

Look no further than when millions of Thai citizens that America said are being excluded were protesting. It did not make American news or if it did it was written off as small insignificant protests. When 3 students, I repeat 3 Thai citizens protest and are arrested the NY Times do an analysis and state these 3 are the majority! So millions on the streets are a minority. 3 on a stage. A majority. Logic to suit an agenda.

For the US to defend a prime minister openly serving as a proxy for a convicted criminal hiding abroad, and who presided over a regime that damaged the economy while literally murdering its political opponents in the streets, is a clear breach of diplomatic protocol and unbecoming of the alleged purpose of the US State Department itself. It exists to represent the will of the American people abroad, not to impose its will upon others. A bit like Chalerms Centre for the Administration of Peace and Order or CAPO. The only department that did everything apart from restoring peace and order and in fact fueled just the opposite (bizzaro world). So when the State department support a regime run by an unelected criminal fugitive, but do not support a Junta that is offerering reform to ensure the country is not run by unelected criminal fugitives that is not democracy according to the US. It is a lack there of! Logic to suit an agenda.

America said "The future of politics will be decided in Asia, not Afghanistan or Iraq, and the United States will be right at the center of the action" and that is why America have been molding Thailand since the Vietnam war to be a united front against China alongside Pakistan, Korea and Japan. It is no secret and the US began this effort during the Vietnam war as shown here. They then highlighted this push again here. Because of that America is not going anywhere and all this noise is just that. Noise. They must be desperately worried that Thailand will go against their dreams by joining China and making noise is their way of showing their frustration that the time and money they invested in swaying Thailand to its agenda is not paying off.

This could not be further from democracy than a drunk blind mans dart from the dart board at 50 meters. Democracy is a swell handle for them to use though. It keeps the gullible hooked.

Have to agree with you One Hundred Per Cent!

Wonder if Obama's minions are playing a game initiated by their boss for one of his favourite Gals? (See picture.)

[MZurf]

Preposterous Thai tripe. Terribly written article. Surprising that a newspaper would even publish such tripe.

Kudos to you Sir for picking this article apart with your ruthless arguments and stinging truths. If your previous 5056 posts are as succinct may I respectfully suggest you publish them in a book?

[rametindallas]

From an image circulated on social media:

At top right: Thais are not your slave. We can stand on our own feet.

Caption: This is our land and we are not the U.S.’s slave.

[The picture shows a reaction of some Thais toward the critical comments of Daniel Russel, the US Assistant Secretary of State, regarding the Thai political situation.]

This is the kind of reaction the US government likes to stir up to keep countries off balance. Thanks, Obama! It the US State Department had any knowledge of Thais, they should expect this kind of reaction. I hope it doesn't translate to worse treatment for US nationals staying in or visiting the Kingdom. Mr. Russil's public statements were neither necessary nor wise and certainly not diplomatic.

diplomatic

: involving the work of maintaining good relations between the governments of different countries (not to be confused with maintaining good relations with corrupted ex governments)

: not causing bad feelings

: having or showing an ability to deal with people politely

In all cases, the US State Department under President Obama has FAILED

Edited February 13, 2015 by rametindallas

[NeverSure]

-snip-

Also people should be aware of the fact that the U S is calling for Democracy. This is a strange thing to hear from a country who had a president (Bush) appointed by the Supreme Court when the majority of the people voted for his opponent Gore.

The US is not a democracy. It is a republic of 50 states. Bush carried 30 states and Gore carried 20. Bush also won the majority of electoral votes. The founders set the country up that way so that huge states couldn't rule small states. It's worked well for almost 250 years.

There's no need in splitting hairs or bringing up the US elections with granularity when the subject is returning democracy to Thailand.

Edited February 13, 2015 by NeverSure

[djjamie]

Some seem to think that the Junta are going to be holding onto power for ever. Some have forgotten that they have promised elections when they can implement reform so all the other principles of democracy that were abused by the previous regime are adhered to.

Of course some that cry "We want Democracy" the loudest are ironically the same people that supported a regime run by an unelected criminal fugitive. Bizzaro world again!

Russel's comments about "Thai citizens feeling that they've been excluded" is the preamble the shin regimes have used to justify acts of terrorism and armed insurrection that have left hundreds of people dead. It is also the narrative used to justify engineered US-backed violence in other nations aimed at regime change.

Russel said "Thai citizens feeling that they've been excluded". Yet not one American said that when thaksin tried to push a free trade agreement though bypassing parliament and the senate. Thai citizens voted for their parliamentarians and they are supposed to represent them. Thai citizens were excluded then. No word from the USA on this exclusion of the Thai citizens. Logic to suit an agenda.

Look at the Siam Paragon bombing. After the bombing, the US Embassy in Thailand neither warned people about the violence, nor condemned it. Instead, the official US Embassy Twitter account congratulated the New England Patriots for winning the Super Bowl. They knew it was a red shirt. That is what the red shirts specialize it. I bet if a PDRC supporter was responsible for the bombing the NY Times would do an analysis of it. Logic to suit an agenda.

Look no further than when millions of Thai citizens that America said are being excluded were protesting. It did not make American news or if it did it was written off as small insignificant protests. When 3 students, I repeat 3 Thai citizens protest and are arrested the NY Times do an analysis and state these 3 are the majority! So millions on the streets are a minority. 3 on a stage. A majority. Logic to suit an agenda.

For the US to defend a prime minister openly serving as a proxy for a convicted criminal hiding abroad, and who presided over a regime that damaged the economy while literally murdering its political opponents in the streets, is a clear breach of diplomatic protocol and unbecoming of the alleged purpose of the US State Department itself. It exists to represent the will of the American people abroad, not to impose its will upon others. A bit like Chalerms Centre for the Administration of Peace and Order or CAPO. The only department that did everything apart from restoring peace and order and in fact fueled just the opposite (bizzaro world). So when the State department support a regime run by an unelected criminal fugitive, but do not support a Junta that is offerering reform to ensure the country is not run by unelected criminal fugitives that is not democracy according to the US. It is a lack there of! Logic to suit an agenda.

America said "The future of politics will be decided in Asia, not Afghanistan or Iraq, and the United States will be right at the center of the action" and that is why America have been molding Thailand since the Vietnam war to be a united front against China alongside Pakistan, Korea and Japan. It is no secret and the US began this effort during the Vietnam war as shown here. They then highlighted this push again here. Because of that America is not going anywhere and all this noise is just that. Noise. They must be desperately worried that Thailand will go against their dreams by joining China and making noise is their way of showing their frustration that the time and money they invested in swaying Thailand to its agenda is not paying off.

This could not be further from democracy than a drunk blind mans dart from the dart board at 50 meters. Democracy is a swell handle for them to use though. It keeps the gullible hooked.

Western countries have tolerated and worked with countries which don't have democracies out of necessity. The world has worked with Saudi Arabia and Russia due to oil. But those same countries didn't go into Saudi or Russia and invest big money in manufacturing plants or make other economic gains for those countries. Saudi and Russia in their present configurations would be economically dead without oil. Today the Ruble is worth just .015 USD. LINK

Thailand doesn't really have anything to offer other than cheap labor and lots of countries, including all Asian countries and specifically ASEAN countries offer cheap labor. The US and Japan don't need Thailand to manufacture cars or scooters or smartphones or hard disk drives or CPUs. Many ASEAN countries and other countries would LOVE to topple Thailand in that regard.

If Thailand isn't careful it will lose the confidence of the US and Japan and manufacturing will move elsewhere. The Phils have a government and leader who are very pro-business. Myanmar wants business as does Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam to name a few.

The US and Japan have bought large tracts of industrial land in Myanmar near Yangon. The US is going to move back into Clark Air Force Base and Subic Bay.

In the meantime Thailand flirts with China giving the US and Japan even less of a feeling of security about Thai investments going forward.

The current Thai government has no clue about international relationships with its best friends and investors, and it could indeed begin to bleed jobs and money.

As far as I'm concerned, China can have Thailand and then we'll see how Thailand really fares under that arrangement.

Ohh, so instead of addressing my statement regarding the hypocrisy of America or the irony in Russel's comments you completely change th subject by referring to the financial aspect of this relationship?

Ok, usually I ignore people that change the subject because of an inability to address what I say, but I will humor you just this once.

As far as I'm concerned, China can have Thailand and then we'll see how Thailand really fares under that arrangement.

Seems they will fair quite well as of October the 8th when China overtook America as the worlds largest economy and I am sure when China was still the 2nd largest economy Thailand would have faired well too.

Seems investors have cracked onto this as well. Knowing full well that ASEAN will be effect at the end of this year land prices in Khon Kaen and especially Udon are sky rocketing. Udon will be the "playground" for business people from Vientiane.

Having lived in Vientiane for nearly 2 years I have witnessed new "Central Plaza" style shopping centers being built. Mega centers if you will all built by the Chinese. Travel throughout Africa. Roads and infrastructure all built by the Chinese. In Angola they used prisinors to build the roads, but damn, those roads are straight, cambered and the best I have seen.

Thailand will fair well, but like I said America is not going anywhere. They are just making noise akin to a child crying for his blanket.

It seems that some think no country in the world can survive without the hypocritical and ironic might of America.

Wrong..

Care to address what I said instead of changing the subject though.

[NeverSure]

Some seem to think that the Junta are going to be holding onto power for ever. Some have forgotten that they have promised elections when they can implement reform so all the other principles of democracy that were abused by the previous regime are adhered to.

Of course some that cry "We want Democracy" the loudest are ironically the same people that supported a regime run by an unelected criminal fugitive. Bizzaro world again!

Russel's comments about "Thai citizens feeling that they've been excluded" is the preamble the shin regimes have used to justify acts of terrorism and armed insurrection that have left hundreds of people dead. It is also the narrative used to justify engineered US-backed violence in other nations aimed at regime change.

Russel said "Thai citizens feeling that they've been excluded". Yet not one American said that when thaksin tried to push a free trade agreement though bypassing parliament and the senate. Thai citizens voted for their parliamentarians and they are supposed to represent them. Thai citizens were excluded then. No word from the USA on this exclusion of the Thai citizens. Logic to suit an agenda.

Look at the Siam Paragon bombing. After the bombing, the US Embassy in Thailand neither warned people about the violence, nor condemned it. Instead, the official US Embassy Twitter account congratulated the New England Patriots for winning the Super Bowl. They knew it was a red shirt. That is what the red shirts specialize it. I bet if a PDRC supporter was responsible for the bombing the NY Times would do an analysis of it. Logic to suit an agenda.

Look no further than when millions of Thai citizens that America said are being excluded were protesting. It did not make American news or if it did it was written off as small insignificant protests. When 3 students, I repeat 3 Thai citizens protest and are arrested the NY Times do an analysis and state these 3 are the majority! So millions on the streets are a minority. 3 on a stage. A majority. Logic to suit an agenda.

For the US to defend a prime minister openly serving as a proxy for a convicted criminal hiding abroad, and who presided over a regime that damaged the economy while literally murdering its political opponents in the streets, is a clear breach of diplomatic protocol and unbecoming of the alleged purpose of the US State Department itself. It exists to represent the will of the American people abroad, not to impose its will upon others. A bit like Chalerms Centre for the Administration of Peace and Order or CAPO. The only department that did everything apart from restoring peace and order and in fact fueled just the opposite (bizzaro world). So when the State department support a regime run by an unelected criminal fugitive, but do not support a Junta that is offerering reform to ensure the country is not run by unelected criminal fugitives that is not democracy according to the US. It is a lack there of! Logic to suit an agenda.

America said "The future of politics will be decided in Asia, not Afghanistan or Iraq, and the United States will be right at the center of the action" and that is why America have been molding Thailand since the Vietnam war to be a united front against China alongside Pakistan, Korea and Japan. It is no secret and the US began this effort during the Vietnam war as shown here. They then highlighted this push again here. Because of that America is not going anywhere and all this noise is just that. Noise. They must be desperately worried that Thailand will go against their dreams by joining China and making noise is their way of showing their frustration that the time and money they invested in swaying Thailand to its agenda is not paying off.

This could not be further from democracy than a drunk blind mans dart from the dart board at 50 meters. Democracy is a swell handle for them to use though. It keeps the gullible hooked.

Western countries have tolerated and worked with countries which don't have democracies out of necessity. The world has worked with Saudi Arabia and Russia due to oil. But those same countries didn't go into Saudi or Russia and invest big money in manufacturing plants or make other economic gains for those countries. Saudi and Russia in their present configurations would be economically dead without oil. Today the Ruble is worth just .015 USD. LINK

Thailand doesn't really have anything to offer other than cheap labor and lots of countries, including all Asian countries and specifically ASEAN countries offer cheap labor. The US and Japan don't need Thailand to manufacture cars or scooters or smartphones or hard disk drives or CPUs. Many ASEAN countries and other countries would LOVE to topple Thailand in that regard.

If Thailand isn't careful it will lose the confidence of the US and Japan and manufacturing will move elsewhere. The Phils have a government and leader who are very pro-business. Myanmar wants business as does Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam to name a few.

The US and Japan have bought large tracts of industrial land in Myanmar near Yangon. The US is going to move back into Clark Air Force Base and Subic Bay.

In the meantime Thailand flirts with China giving the US and Japan even less of a feeling of security about Thai investments going forward.

The current Thai government has no clue about international relationships with its best friends and investors, and it could indeed begin to bleed jobs and money.

As far as I'm concerned, China can have Thailand and then we'll see how Thailand really fares under that arrangement.

Ohh, so instead of addressing my statement regarding the hypocrisy of America or the irony in Russel's comments you completely change th subject by referring to the financial aspect of this relationship?

Ok, usually I ignore people that change the subject because of an inability to address what I say, but I will humor you just this once.

As far as I'm concerned, China can have Thailand and then we'll see how Thailand really fares under that arrangement.

Seems they will fair quite well as of October the 8th when China overtook America as the worlds largest economy and I am sure when China was still the 2nd largest economy Thailand would have faired well too.

Seems investors have cracked onto this as well. Knowing full well that ASEAN will be effect at the end of this year land prices in Khon Kaen and especially Udon are sky rocketing. Udon will be the "playground" for business people from Vientiane.

Having lived in Vientiane for nearly 2 years I have witnessed new "Central Plaza" style shopping centers being built. Mega centers if you will all built by the Chinese. Travel throughout Africa. Roads and infrastructure all built by the Chinese. In Angola they used prisinors to build the roads, but damn, those roads are straight, cambered and the best I have seen.

Thailand will fair well, but like I said America is not going anywhere. They are just making noise akin to a child crying for his blanket.

It seems that some think no country in the world can survive without the hypocritical and ironic might of America.

Wrong..

Care to address what I said instead of changing the subject though.

Oh, so your post was about "the hypocrisy of America or the irony in Russel's comments." Who knew from the text of your long rant?

No I'm not going to answer your post because it's intended to flame rather than discuss. Take your anger elsewhere please.