Noob questions about riding manual

[Carol Jadzia]

I am a biker. I really don't give a flying F as to wether you believe me our not. I retired and moved on.

I thought It would be nice to pass on my experience to help improve road safety in Thailand as motorcycle riding standards are so poor.

Well so I thought. Obviously I was so wrong as I know realise the country is full of experts who obviously have studied motorcycle roadcraft theory for years.

Cool, I will leave you experts to it as obviously you have all the answers.

[Shurup]

I am a biker. I really don't give a flying F as to wether you believe me our not. I retired and moved on.

I thought It would be nice to pass on my experience to help improve road safety in Thailand as motorcycle riding standards are so poor.

Well so I thought. Obviously I was so wrong as I know realise the country is full of experts who obviously have studied motorcycle roadcraft theory for years.

Cool, I will leave you experts to it as obviously you have all the answers.

Are you drunk?

[taninthai]

Love this forum ,so much entertainment...?

[papa al]

I am woman.

Hear me roar.

[JonnyF]

I am a biker. I really don't give a flying F as to wether you believe me our not. I retired and moved on.

I thought It would be nice to pass on my experience to help improve road safety in Thailand as motorcycle riding standards are so poor.

Well so I thought. Obviously I was so wrong as I know realise the country is full of experts who obviously have studied motorcycle roadcraft theory for years.

Cool, I will leave you experts to it as obviously you have all the answers.

Wow I wasn't expecting such a snappy comeback

Hopefully newbie riders will see your post above before they start taking your previous posts too seriously. I thought your advice to "NOT" cover the front brake was quite dangerous personally. I can see why you retired...

[Carol Jadzia]

All these keyboard experts. Well done to you.

I only retired as I got fed up of dealing with 'riding experts'. Cheers for the reminder.

I was just looking through the British Motorcycle Test examiner notes and I did find something worth adding to the discussion on ABS:-

"Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation; therefore a fault should not be recorded purely for using this technique with a vehicle fitted with ABS on the emergency stop exercise. On the emergency stop exercise, under severe braking, tyre or other noise may be heard, this does not necessarily mean the wheels have locked and are skidding. Examiners should bear these points in mind when assessing the candidate's control during this exercise. Further advice regarding ABS is given in the DSA publication 'driving the essential skills'. "

The rest I have posted is European Driving Standards. Obviously there are some differences around the world. I tend to look at the accident statistics to see which countries are the safest.

Newbies do what keeps you alive. If you can make it to as many as years I have been teaching people then good on ya.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Carol Jadzia

[BKKBike09]

I rode bikes in Central London for four years late 90s and elsewhere in UK before that. I've ridden bikes for much longer than that in Bangkok and elsewhere in Thailand. There's no comparison whatsoever between the two situations. In the UK, by and large, most road users generally follow the rules of the road, written and unwritten. In Thailand the complete opposite is true and, indeed, trying to follow the rules can be downright dangerous.

In the particular circumstances of filtering through Bangkok traffic, where every vehicle is trying to get into that tiny space that's just opened up and also doing their best to stop you getting into that space, surely it's best to be in a position to brake effectively, as quickly as you can, whenever you need.

If you're filtering at just 20 mph (32 kmh) then in one second you will travel 30 feet (9 m). If you're covering the front brake with two fingers shouldn't you be in a position to apply the brake fractionally faster than if you have to transition all four fingers from throttle to brake lever? It might only equate to distance travelled of a couple of feet but that could be just what you needed to avoid an accident.

This being an internet forum I'm just expressing my opinion so anyone who thinks I'm talking out of my ar*e is welcome to say ...

My point being that the driving circumstances here are so different to the UK that what is best / correct there may not always be best / correct here.

[papa al]

Post 45:

"It is also common for people to loose or seriously injure the fingers that are left behind the levers. As the lever is forced in it traps and damages whats between it and the grip.

This is a very common motorcycle injury. Very hard to ride with a broken finger after what might have been a simple dropped bike.

I have seen this happen many times. But that's bikers for you. never learn "

I'm retarded retired physiotherapist.

I participate in therapy forums.

Unable to come up with instances of this type of injury.

Exactly how many times have you seen this CJ?

[hungry for actual data]

[ll2]

All these keyboard experts. Well done to you.

I only retired as I got fed up of dealing with 'riding experts'. Cheers for the reminder.

I was just looking through the British Motorcycle Test examiner notes and I did find something worth adding to the discussion on ABS:-

"Most ABS systems require the clutch and footbrake to be depressed harshly at the same time to brake in an emergency situation; therefore a fault should not be recorded purely for using this technique with a vehicle fitted with ABS on the emergency stop exercise. On the emergency stop exercise, under severe braking, tyre or other noise may be heard, this does not necessarily mean the wheels have locked and are skidding. Examiners should bear these points in mind when assessing the candidate's control during this exercise. Further advice regarding ABS is given in the DSA publication 'driving the essential skills'. "

The rest I have posted is European Driving Standards. Obviously there are some differences around the world. I tend to look at the accident statistics to see which countries are the safest.

Newbies do what keeps you alive. If you can make it to as many as years I have been teaching people then good on ya.

c'mon, we all just express our ideas here and criticize and discuss some. which is normal for a forum.

why do you take it personal? no one is attacking or disrespecting you on something but just discuss and criticize your info you posted here.

and if they are keyboard expats, so you are.

[JonnyF]

Post 45:

"It is also common for people to loose or seriously injure the fingers that are left behind the levers. As the lever is forced in it traps and damages whats between it and the grip.

This is a very common motorcycle injury. Very hard to ride with a broken finger after what might have been a simple dropped bike.

I have seen this happen many times. But that's bikers for you. never learn "

I'm retarded retired physiotherapist.

I participate in therapy forums.

Unable to come up with instances of this type of injury.

Exactly how many times have you seen this CJ?

[hungry for actual data]

Even if this was the case (which I doubt), then having 2 fingers on the lever during an unexpected crash (e.g. being hit from behind or sideswiped, t-boned) would ensure that only the 2 remaining fingers on the grip were broken, as opposed to all 4.

And what about the left hand? Is the advice to always cover the clutch with all 4 fingers to avoid fingers getting crushed by the clutch lever in the event of a sudden unexpected crash?

[seedy]

If the front brake lever - on hydraulic disc brakes - comes back far enuf to touch the throttle, I would have the brakes looked at.

I have room for my fingers even when I pull hard as I can.

[zlodnick]

I think this topic could be re-titled to "How can I drive fast and aggesively and still be safe?".

When I was a kid, I drove like a maniac, no fear and had a couple bad accidents.

Now in my old age, I drive much slower, (everything I do now is slower), and I am constantly aware of my surroundings and trying to antisipate what every other driver on the road is up to. This doesnt make riding as much fun, but it must be done to survive on the road here.

Ive had one motorcycle accident here and ALOT of close calls. The outcome would have been much different, had I been driving faster and/or not paying attention.

I know how great it feels to get out on the road and open er up!, but, Im just too afraid to do it here. It also scares me to think of covering the brake, just to have that extra fraction of a second of brake time.

Whatever everyone does, I hope they stay safe out there

[andreandre]

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Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I also cover rear brake in Bangkok. naturally my feet covers it anyway due to my aftermarket rearset.

same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions. but while touring, it is not super necessary.

Moreover, i cover the clutch - something coming from my first 2 stroker - not only for fast shifting but also in case of a piston or transmission problem as if these happen, rear tires get locked same as two strokers but very very rarely for 4 strokers. of course too paranoid i know but you never know! also my hands feel balanced when i cover the clutch too.

and covering the brakes has nothing to do with the throttle. You release the throttle before you apply the brakes of course and keeping your fingers on the brakes do not prevent this. throttle has a tight spring at most of the modern new bikes.

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

[ll2]

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Never mind the front brake, who covers the back brake with their foot all the time?

I also cover rear brake in Bangkok. naturally my feet covers it anyway due to my aftermarket rearset.

same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions. but while touring, it is not super necessary.

Moreover, i cover the clutch - something coming from my first 2 stroker - not only for fast shifting but also in case of a piston or transmission problem as if these happen, rear tires get locked same as two strokers but very very rarely for 4 strokers. of course too paranoid i know but you never know! also my hands feel balanced when i cover the clutch too.

and covering the brakes has nothing to do with the throttle. You release the throttle before you apply the brakes of course and keeping your fingers on the brakes do not prevent this. throttle has a tight spring at most of the modern new bikes.

"same as covering the front brakes, it is needed imo or fast braking reactions."

This is of course 100% correct, so why are you "not covering your brakes on track days?or at least being told not to?

Why are you so reticent to answer this straight forward question....[not a trick question, i'm just curious as to why.you made contradictory statements and you should be able to clarify..]

man, please ask Marc Marquez. he is not covering his brakes too on the track:)

Maybe he can give you a better answer!

Edited February 18, 2015 by ll2

[dave_boo]

man, please ask Marc Marquez. he is not covering his brakes too on the track:)

Maybe he can give you a better answer!

You're going to pick a pic that has him leaned over? Like when he has to shift weight to make a turn and thus having his palm locked in a single point will throw that off?

[andreandre]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

[ll2]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

[dave_boo]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

Dude, that comment about the guy's health is fvcked up.

He's in no way attacked you personally, just questioned your comments. Try to stay in the same vein...i.e., be as vicious as you'd like in regards to his thought process but leave personal discussions out of it.

[ll2]

Pathetic attempted deflection LL2... totally irrelevant to our discussion......you made the statements..only you can give me the answer..or maybe [or likely obviously , you can not ]

it is very relevant. Due to body positioning, leaning etc, you cannot keep your fingers on the brakes or you cannot put your fingers on an off the brakes all the time as you lean and be upright many times during a 2 minute lap.

and on the track, there will be no cat or dog suddenly running to the road or no one trying to do a wrong u turn or sudden braking out of blue. no one cuts you too and you know where you need to do braking. rarely a guy might flip but where they flip also mostly same places on hard corners etc. so, chances to do an emergency braking is very very low if you compare with normal roads and traffic or especially in a city.

maybe Marc Marquez and all those moto gp riders are also pathetic, huh andre? and you are not?

if my answers are not satisfactory, you can always send a facebook messages to one of those moto gp riders and maybe can get a better answer.

man look, i am trying not to clash with you and answer your stupid remarks as you said you have terminal cancer and it is true or not, i do not want to break your heart on things anymore.

please be nice as i am being nice to you.

Dude, that comment about the guy's health is fvcked up.

He's in no way attacked you personally, just questioned your comments. Try to stay in the same vein...i.e., be as vicious as you'd like in regards to his thought process but leave personal discussions out of it.

sorry dude, calling my name out, forcing me to answer is also fycked up. and although i believe i gave proper answers to him.

you involving on this is also not nice.

and sorry, but it is him saying here allegedly that he has terminal cancer so please dave, please do not advocate others.

and no way, i am saying something bad about his sickness, actually i am sad about it and do not want to break his heart anymore or discuss things with him in a harsh manner, is it wrong to say? c'mon!

Edited February 18, 2015 by ll2

[seedy]

Dude, that comment about the guy's health is fvcked up.

He's in no way attacked you personally, just questioned your comments. Try to stay in the same vein...i.e., be as vicious as you'd like in regards to his thought process but leave personal discussions out of it.

+1

[ll2]

man, please ask Marc Marquez. he is not covering his brakes too on the track:)

Maybe he can give you a better answer!

You're going to pick a pic that has him leaned over? Like when he has to shift weight to make a turn and thus having his palm locked in a single point will throw that off?

Like when he has to shift weight to make a turn and thus having his palm locked in a single point will throw that off?

maybe that is why they dont cover their brakes dave as these guys lean more than they go straight?

anyway, check this photo while he is going straight:

[Gweiloman]

When riding in city traffic or in built up areas, covering the brakes is without question the right thing to do.

This video explains it very clearly

On the highways or out in the boondocks and twisties, my personal opinion is that it's not always necessary to be covering the brakes 100% of the time. A competent motorist is constantly looking out and scanning for potential hazards. This is much more important than merely covering the brakes. By being able to identify potential hazards, one can adjust one's speed correctly while at the same time, starting to cover the brakes if necessary.

On the track, it is not necessary to cover the brakes. Firstly, one needs full control of the bike. No one can really argue that one has as much control while covering the brakes as one might have by not covering the brakes. Secondly, it is unlikely that one needs to do e-braking on the track for reasons stated in an earlier post. Thirdly, when leaning round a corner, bumps on the corner might cause unnecessary braking (if covering the brakes) which is something to be avoided.

[dave_boo]

sorry dude, calling my name out, forcing me to answer is also fycked up. and although i believe i gave proper answers to him.

you involving on this is also not nice.

and sorry, but it is him saying here allegedly that he has terminal cancer so please dave, please do not advocate others.

Asking someone to defend their statements is not bad. I do it to Richard all the time. You don't seem to have a problem with that. I've 'advocated' for you previously. Was I wrong for that?

You've also known me long enough to understand I will not idly stand by whilst something like this happens on the forum which should be a place to exchange ideas and promote knowledge. Whether you believe or not his claim to have liver cancer, and this is going to sound harsh, but I don't care either way because it doesn't affect what he is saying is true or not, bringing up a personal issue to attempt to attack his point his not cool at all. It is a form of ad hominem logical fallacy.

[dave_boo]

Like when he has to shift weight to make a turn and thus having his palm locked in a single point will throw that off?

maybe that is why they dont cover their brakes dave as these guys lean more than they go straight?

anyway, check this photo while he is going straight:

We can go back and forth with pictures all day; but a single picture that shows him covering his brakes pretty much invalidates a claim that he never does. And if he does it some of the time than it's not a bad idea. After all he's a better rider than both of us multiplied together.

[ll2]

sorry dude, calling my name out, forcing me to answer is also fycked up. and although i believe i gave proper answers to him.

you involving on this is also not nice.

and sorry, but it is him saying here allegedly that he has terminal cancer so please dave, please do not advocate others.

Asking someone to defend their statements is not bad. I do it to Richard all the time. You don't seem to have a problem with that. I've 'advocated' for you previously. Was I wrong for that?

You've also known me long enough to understand I will not idly stand by whilst something like this happens on the forum which should be a place to exchange ideas and promote knowledge. Whether you believe or not his claim to have liver cancer, and this is going to sound harsh, but I don't care either way because it doesn't affect what he is saying is true or not, bringing up a personal issue to attempt to attack his point his not cool at all. It is a form of ad hominem logical fallacy.

dave, believe me, i am in no position to put his illness on any personal attack or discussion. i think you got me wrong on that.

but i am in a position on offering him my sympathy on not discussing things with him in a harsh manner which my result on making him or me sad or heart broken. and i believe this is right thing to do.

and i defended my statements clearly before but he keeps asking and calling my name out bro.

Edited February 18, 2015 by ll2

[ll2]

Like when he has to shift weight to make a turn and thus having his palm locked in a single point will throw that off?

maybe that is why they dont cover their brakes dave as these guys lean more than they go straight?

anyway, check this photo while he is going straight:

We can go back and forth with pictures all day; but a single picture that shows him covering his brakes pretty much invalidates a claim that he never does. And if he does it some of the time than it's not a bad idea. After all he's a better rider than both of us multiplied together.

i mean, you might catch a photo of him applying brakes maybe:)

you can check the photos of him and other moto gp riders and come to a conclusion.

but dave, what are you defending here?

andre?

or moto gp riders need to cover their brakes on a track?

or they do not need to do that on a track?

i am confused bro.

andre or

[Gweiloman]

Like when he has to shift weight to make a turn and thus having his palm locked in a single point will throw that off?

maybe that is why they dont cover their brakes dave as these guys lean more than they go straight?

anyway, check this photo while he is going straight:

We can go back and forth with pictures all day; but a single picture that shows him covering his brakes pretty much invalidates a claim that he never does. And if he does it some of the time than it's not a bad idea. After all he's a better rider than both of us multiplied together.

Would like to run a quick and completely unscientific poll here.

When on track, do you cover your brakes?

For me, no.

For ll2, obviously no, as surmised from his posts.

What about the rest of you? Once again, I'm talking specifically about being on track, not on city roads.

[dave_boo]

i mean, you might catch a photo of him applying brakes maybe:)

you can check the photos of him and other moto gp riders and come to a conclusion.

but dave, what are you defending here?

andre?

or moto gp riders need to cover their brakes on a track?

or they do not need to do that on a track?

i am confused bro.

andre or

I am sure that andre is a big boy and can defend himself.

I am defending the idea that covering the brakes at a track can be a good idea. Is it necessary 100% of the time? No. There are plenty of good ideas that aren't necessary 100% of the time. Take ATGATT. I don't follow it (and I'm sure that nobody on the forum gears up 100% to pop down to 7-11), but it's a great idea.

[dave_boo]

Would like to run a quick and completely unscientific poll here.

When on track, do you cover your brakes?

For me, no.

For ll2, obviously no, as surmised from his posts.

What about the rest of you? Once again, I'm talking specifically about being on track, not on city roads.

I understand it's a quick and completely unscientific poll, but qualify.

Cover your brakes...100%...occasionally...never...

[Gweiloman]

Would like to run a quick and completely unscientific poll here.

When on track, do you cover your brakes?

For me, no.

For ll2, obviously no, as surmised from his posts.

What about the rest of you? Once again, I'm talking specifically about being on track, not on city roads.

I understand it's a quick and completely unscientific poll, but qualify.

Cover your brakes...100%...occasionally...never...

If I'm not mistaken, the discussion up till now is to cover your brakes 100% of the time or at least, most of the time as it relates to e-braking. On track, one may only need to cover one's brakes for what, 5% of the time?

So to refine my question, it should read:

When on track, do you cover your brakes most of the time?