Surge Protector. 3 pin plug to 2 pin plug.

[Pib]

Don't worry about the spikes, Enron today in bkk suffering brown outs and I live behind a feeder. And whatever the fault was it was sinking enough juice to have the neon indicator lights on a powerstrip go dark and still allow a floor fan to run. Everything else dropped off instantly due to serious underv. This will burn out so many things much more effectively than surges.

I didn't know the lack of the right amount of electricity can do damage. I thought the appliance would just stop working.

How does fading electric burn out electronics and appliances?

How does fading (i.e., brownouts, significantly lower line voltage than normal) burn out electronics/appliances? Well, to keep it simple your electronic/electric items are designed to optimally work within a certain line voltage range....when not within the allowable range many items items basically have to work harder to maintain acceptable normal voltage, amperage, etc., levels within their circuits...abnormal voltage/amperage levels can cause immediate to delayed damage/failure. Usually it's the power supply portion that is damaged but it can be in other parts also depending on how the power supply and other circuits are designed.

Now will it hurt items like fans? Probably not because you basically change fan speeds by the switches varying the voltage to the fan motor. Same thing for a simple old style incandescent light bulb. But many electronics/appliances are designed to work at 220V or 120V plus or minus approx 20%....get outside of this plus or minus approx 20% and it can affect different electronics/appliances in different ways...many time destructive ways. Like my house water pump....it the voltage drops to around 180 volts, some water is drawn somewhere the pump will kick on and continue to run because the motor can not get up to higher enough speed to rebuilt the water pressure to the pump pressure cutoff level...a good way to burn up a pump motor.

I hooked up a small panel voltmeter to the input side of my main circuit breaker box so I can see what the voltage level is. See snapshot below from Ebay of a very similar meter like I have. I use an analog meter since a digital meter requires a certain voltage level to work properly. Even on the analog meter scale you can see from the scale color coding what the manufacturer considers an accept voltage level around the 220V optimum. If the brown out is down to around 180 volts with it usually varying also, I pretty much turn off most of the breakers to my house circuits except maybe one or two which are powering floor fans. Then I periodically check the voltmeter to see if the voltage has returned to normal (which is around 225-230V in my Bangkok location)...I can also quickly tell by the fan speed...when the voltage is back to normal I turn all the breakers back on. I figure turning the breakers off for a while is cheaper than a electronics repair/replacement bill.

[KhunHeineken]

Don't worry about the spikes, Enron today in bkk suffering brown outs and I live behind a feeder. And whatever the fault was it was sinking enough juice to have the neon indicator lights on a powerstrip go dark and still allow a floor fan to run. Everything else dropped off instantly due to serious underv. This will burn out so many things much more effectively than surges.

I didn't know the lack of the right amount of electricity can do damage. I thought the appliance would just stop working.

How does fading electric burn out electronics and appliances?

How does fading (i.e., brownouts, significantly lower line voltage than normal) burn out electronics/appliances? Well, to keep it simple your electronic/electric items are designed to optimally work within a certain line voltage range....when not within the allowable range many items items basically have to work harder to maintain acceptable normal voltage, amperage, etc., levels within their circuits...abnormal voltage/amperage levels can cause immediate to delayed damage/failure. Usually it's the power supply portion that is damaged but it can be in other parts also depending on how the power supply and other circuits are designed.

Now will it hurt items like fans? Probably not because you basically change fan speeds by the switches varying the voltage to the fan motor. Same thing for a simple old style incandescent light bulb. But many electronics/appliances are designed to work at 220V or 120V plus or minus approx 20%....get outside of this plus or minus approx 20% and it can affect different electronics/appliances in different ways...many time destructive ways. Like my house water pump....it the voltage drops to around 180 volts, some water is drawn somewhere the pump will kick on and continue to run because the motor can not get up to higher enough speed to rebuilt the water pressure to the pump pressure cutoff level...a good way to burn up a pump motor.

I hooked up a small panel voltmeter to the input side of my main circuit breaker box so I can see what the voltage level is. See snapshot below from Ebay of a very similar meter like I have. I use an analog meter since a digital meter requires a certain voltage level to work properly. Even on the analog meter scale you can see from the scale color coding what the manufacturer considers an accept voltage level around the 220V optimum. If the brown out is down to around 180 volts with it usually varying also, I pretty much turn off most of the breakers to my house circuits except maybe one or two which are powering floor fans. Then I periodically check the voltmeter to see if the voltage has returned to normal (which is around 225-230V in my Bangkok location)...I can also quickly tell by the fan speed...when the voltage is back to normal I turn all the breakers back on. I figure turning the breakers off for a while is cheaper than a electronics repair/replacement bill.

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Thanks for your explanation. I understand how fading electric could cause damage to your water pump, because I gather the pump uses the water intake to cool the motor, and it could cavitate.

How would fading electric harm your typical higher priced house appliances like fridge motor, washing machine motor and TV? Would these not be similar to the fan example you gave and they simply would just stop working, rather than be damaged?

I know it's possible one end of the armature may have a fan, to cool the motor, but as it's spinning slower, it would be making less heat, so would also need less cooling.

[KhunHeineken]

Further to this topic, I had a closer look at the Belkin warranty.

http://www.belkin.com/us/cew/

Like most warranty fine print, it's long, but this is the main part for this topic.

"All Belkin Chargers must be plugged directly into a properly wired AC power line or standard 12v DC power source and must not be "daisy-chained" together in serial fashion with other power strips, UPSes, surge protectors, other charging products, three-to-two-prong adapters, or extension cords. Any such installation voids this warranty."

I didn't buy this product for its warranty, but because it said "works in any country."

[BB1950]

How would fading electric harm your typical higher priced house appliances like fridge motor, washing machine motor and TV? Would these not be similar to the fan example you gave and they simply would just stop working, rather than be damaged?

I know it's possible one end of the armature may have a fan, to cool the motor, but as it's spinning slower, it would be making less heat, so would also need less cooling.

You have it slightly wrong. I think you're thinking of DC motors. For AC motors, the voltage doesn't affect the speed other than the ability for motor speed get in sync with the rotating phase. The frequency mainly controls the speed of rotation.

Of course, while the motor isn't in sync, it's pulling a lot more current because of the increased load. In the process, the motor can overheat causing damage to the windings.

For electronic devices such as a TV, there's more load on the circuits. The components are pulling more current because the circuits are not operating properly. I've literally seen electronic components blow up from brownouts!

[RichCor]

How would fading electric harm your typical higher priced house appliances like fridge motor, washing machine motor and TV? Would these not be similar to the fan example you gave and they simply would just stop working, rather than be damaged?

I know it's possible one end of the armature may have a fan, to cool the motor, but as it's spinning slower, it would be making less heat, so would also need less cooling.

You have it slightly wrong. I think you're thinking of DC motors. For AC motors, the voltage doesn't affect the speed other than the ability for motor speed get in sync with the rotating phase. The frequency mainly controls the speed of rotation.

Of course, while the motor isn't in sync, it's pulling a lot more current because of the increased load. In the process, the motor can overheat causing damage to the windings.

For electronic devices such as a TV, there's more load on the circuits. The components are pulling more current because the circuits are not operating properly. I've literally seen electronic components blow up from brownouts!

While many electronics will just stop working when the supply current drops below level, or stop working properly, I've had transceivers blow their finals (RF Power Amplifiers) when the source current went below a certain threshold.

I imagine that as the transmitter/receiver combo used a common (shared) antenna that there was a relay switch responsible for isolating the sensitive receiver from the high-power transmitter RF output when it activated. In the low-current situation, the transmitter pulled all the available current and the relay switch didn't have enough current to complete the critical antenna switch from the receiver to the transmitter and and the RF energy was left hanging with nowhere to go but be reflected back through the circuit.

[jcisco]

Primarily at risk in brownouts are essentially all transformers within power supplies and powerbricks. Switchmode power supplies are somewhat more resilient depending on the flexibility of its design to cope.

Fortunately the frequency will remain pretty close to usual as just the leading edge without distortion more than .5hz out of time will cause issues network wide . Usually where the signals propagation meets a grid source other than generators in its own hall.

[BB1950]

Primarily at risk in brownouts are essentially all transformers within power supplies and powerbricks. Switchmode power supplies are somewhat more resilient depending on the flexibility of its design to cope.

I believe it was a switchmode power supply that I witnessed blowing up during a brownout. But you're right. It depends on the design to cope. I've seen a lot more powerbricks with transformers being damaged by brownouts than switchmode power supplies.

Back on Topic... The point being made is; surge protectors do not provide any form of protection in brownouts.

[jcisco]

Back on Topic... The point being made is; surge protectors do not provide any form of protection in brownouts.

No generally a surge protector is just that, it has inside a device suitable only for arresting surge states, nothing to trigger a disconnect due to sag generally. Primarily the reason for this apparent lack of base covering is that the device is for worldwide usage is it not. While you may define a surge state quite easily, anything above a 500V on any phase is for sure shoot first ask question later time.. Now what AC voltage is considered the floor voltage in which a device should trigger a disconnect.

Its about 70 volts, and by then if your expecting 200V+, your toast, btw don't take my word on the floor, Its probably lower than I would go with my stuff.

Bottom line, Surge protectors are generally MOV based, are they wired to cut on voltage rises on any conductor. Some are some arent.

Are they fast enough to catch a lightening strike or extremely rapid changes in the waveform, not at all.

Protection of undervolt or over current not at all, they don't even provide isolation that could be called such when they do trigger.

and more on sags and I mean sustained voltage drop ie brownout, not just a transient ripple in the waveform. Surge protectors don't help though depending on the design may respond to rise in current, but that is dependent on the load for indication so unreliable.

My recommendation decide if you want to cover just a subset of devices or set of circuits in your home. Then save yourself the headache, go buy a emerson or APC unit to fit whatever category you want covered.

Surge, Line Conditioning, Brownout, Power out (UPS), lightning protection, isolation, phase faults etc.... They surely sell whatever you want, I'd go for more permanent items over appliance type devices.

Hope this makes sense, i'm going to passout now.

[KhunHeineken]

Thanks everyone for the replies and explanations.

I understand there are appliances I can buy, and adjustments to wiring I can make, to minimise the risk of damage from a surge or a brown out, but I am on the road a lot, particularly to less advanced parts of South East Asia, and I am looking for the best portable solution to offer protection when charging my laptop, tablet, phone, camera and music player.

Of course I will charge these one at a time, to minimise the risk.

A member has said the powerbricks are at risk, and I have already had one of these blow up on me, luckily, with no damage to the laptop.

A question is, could I run two powerbricks inline, using one as a throw away in order to protect the other? Is it possible?

I'm not after a perfect solution, just the best solution while traveling around this region where electricity is very unreliable and where generators are cutting on and off all the time.

[jcisco]

If you can deal with 5KG in weight than this will more than tick all the boxes AFAIK. http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX625CI-MS

Call the local reseller and see what they know perhaps.

[BB1950]

A question is, could I run two powerbricks inline, using one as a throw away in order to protect the other? Is it possible?

That doesn't make much sense! Powerbricks generally produce a DC power source from an AC power source.

I'm afraid you won't find a small lightweight solution suitable for travel in regions where electricity is very unreliable and where generators are cutting on and off all the time. Of course it depends on the device(s) load you intend to power. In general, the smaller the load, the more portable.

[KhunHeineken]

 

I am bumping this thread, rather than starting a new one, because the issue is pretty much the same. 

 

This thread dealt with if it's possible to surge protect a 2 pin plug, which is typical in South East Asia.  I am running the surge protectors, because I had them anyway, but I understand without a third pin going to ground, they will not do much in the event of a surge, but may do something. 

 

I looked all around my apartment for something that goes to earth.  The only thing there was is the elevator, and I can't ground to that.  The plumbing goes into plastic, so no good there either.

 

I have recently had a big storm at my place.  It took out the building's security CCTV, and some people had their TV's fried. 

 

I had a network card fired on an android box, which is a good result compared to the damage it caused others.

 

I like to use ethernet cable direct from the router or switch because you get faster speeds, and it's more secure.  I will be bumping another thread about switches because I am running out of ports.

 

So, I lost my little android box but no other major electrical items.  It was a cheap Chinese one, so not real fussed about it, and it still runs on WiFi anyway. 

 

I Googled for LAN surge protectors and came up with the below.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RJ45-LAN-Adapter-Ethernet-Network-Protect-Device-Arrester-Surge-Protector/352489450469?epid=8025154052&hash=item5212022be5:g:5fUAAOSwTitbxEgy:rk:3:pf:0

 

The 2 pin plug surge was explained to me, but will these be any good to protect the modem and android box, and some other things that are connected by ethernet cable, or without any earth in the building, these will not work as well? 

 

Any other suggestions on how to protetect my network from surges, other than unplug everything when I see some clouds, would be appreciated. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/6/2019 at 7:04 PM, KhunHeineken said:

 

I am bumping this thread, rather than starting a new one, because the issue is pretty much the same. 

 

This thread dealt with if it's possible to surge protect a 2 pin plug, which is typical in South East Asia.  I am running the surge protectors, because I had them anyway, but I understand without a third pin going to ground, they will not do much in the event of a surge, but may do something. 

 

I looked all around my apartment for something that goes to earth.  The only thing there was is the elevator, and I can't ground to that.  The plumbing goes into plastic, so no good there either.

 

I have recently had a big storm at my place.  It took out the building's security CCTV, and some people had their TV's fried. 

 

I had a network card fired on an android box, which is a good result compared to the damage it caused others.

 

I like to use ethernet cable direct from the router or switch because you get faster speeds, and it's more secure.  I will be bumping another thread about switches because I am running out of ports.

 

So, I lost my little android box but no other major electrical items.  It was a cheap Chinese one, so not real fussed about it, and it still runs on WiFi anyway. 

 

I Googled for LAN surge protectors and came up with the below.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RJ45-LAN-Adapter-Ethernet-Network-Protect-Device-Arrester-Surge-Protector/352489450469?epid=8025154052&hash=item5212022be5:g:5fUAAOSwTitbxEgy:rk:3:pf:0

 

The 2 pin plug surge was explained to me, but will these be any good to protect the modem and android box, and some other things that are connected by ethernet cable, or without any earth in the building, these will not work as well? 

 

Any other suggestions on how to protetect my network from surges, other than unplug everything when I see some clouds, would be appreciated. 

Just bumping this thread.

 

No thoughts on the ethernet surge protector in the link? 

[Crossy]

38 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

No thoughts on the ethernet surge protector in the link? 

Seems very cheap, those look like phone type spark gaps. Ethernet ports are pretty robust, you need a goodly surge on the line to fry them. If you have cables that run outside your building or for long distances then a decent arrestor with it's own ground cannot hurt. Do note that many of these things will slug your ethernet speed more then somewhat.

 

More important would be something on your incoming phone line unless you have fibre to your desk.

 

Most plug-in mains arrestors here only protect L-N anyway so adding a ground is of little use unless you build your own arrestor with 3 MOVs.

 

Finding a ground in an apartment can be problematic, do you have a balcony with a metal handrail (likely welded to the structural steel)?

[KhunHeineken]

On 2/9/2019 at 8:42 PM, Crossy said:

Seems very cheap, those look like phone type spark gaps. Ethernet ports are pretty robust, you need a goodly surge on the line to fry them. If you have cables that run outside your building or for long distances then a decent arrestor with it's own ground cannot hurt. Do note that many of these things will slug your ethernet speed more then somewhat.

 

More important would be something on your incoming phone line unless you have fibre to your desk.

 

Most plug-in mains arrestors here only protect L-N anyway so adding a ground is of little use unless you build your own arrestor with 3 MOVs.

 

Finding a ground in an apartment can be problematic, do you have a balcony with a metal handrail (likely welded to the structural steel)?

They do look cheap and nasty, but being so cheap I have ordered a couple.  I'll test the speed with one connected and if there is little or no drop, I'll leave it connected.  Who knows, it might do something.  If there is a big drop in speed, I will throw them away.  

 

I have already lost a ethernet card during a storm on a cheap Chinese android box, but it could have easily been my computer, or modem.  

 

I don't have any available structure going to ground.  Even the plumbing goes into plastic.     

 

I gather the power boards with the ethernet surge protector work in the same way as these units, so probably no good either.