Any 'peace talks' must be open to all

[Lite Beer]

EDITORIAL
Any 'peace talks' must be open to all
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The resolution of our political strife no longer rests solely with high-profile figures

It's becoming increasingly clear that reconciliation and reform are two different objectives, and that if one of them succeeds, the other might fail. The opposing sides in the political conflict have no common ground, to the extent that they adhere to two different interpretations of the term "justice".

Thaksin Shinawatra's camp this week mooted the idea of holding "peace talks" with Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha. The idea was ridiculous for several reasons, not least because Prayut's government would risk doom by agreeing to such a meeting.

But, even if the government went ahead with the talks and somehow managed to survive the storm of criticism that would ensue, our national strife is no longer just about the leaders, elected or otherwise. Also weighing in on the outcome are the red shirts, the yellow shirts, academics of various mindsets and the media, particularly the divisive and vociferous social networks.

Prayut, Thaksin, Yingluck Shinawatra, Suthep Thaugsuban and Abhisit Vejjajiva might somehow end up sharing hugs and clinking champagne glasses, all past animosity forgiven, but even that far-fetched outcome would have little difference in the long term.

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate. He would be unlikely to settle for clemency alone, since that would amount to mere forgiveness, when what he and his youngest sister need is for the past to be forgotten. Perhaps more importantly for Thaksin, mere clemency would dash any hope of getting back the money seized from his bank accounts following his ouster.

"Justice", for opponents of the Shinawatras, demands that Thaksin admit the Ratchadapisek land purchase amounted to abuse of power, that corruption plagued the rice price-pledging scheme, and that other government policies he advocated or initiated either contravened the law or were part of some hidden self-serving agenda.

All that "reform" and "reconciliation" have in common is that both are heading toward deadlock - unless, that is, certain people agree to make significant sacrifices.

By and large, we sense among Thaksin's opponents an impatience with the cautious process of democracy, whereas the Thaksin camp says democracy was never given enough time to shed its faults and begin functioning properly. Ironically, Prayut's controversial rule is facing time constraints as well. Its reform-reconciliation agenda ostensibly has about one year to be hammered out in detail, accepted by the public and turned into functioning reality.

We see fewer signs of progress than signals we are headed back to Square One. If Yingluck is convicted of the crime of which she's now accused, the situation becomes direr still. None of Thailand's critics overseas regard her or her brother as embodying democratic ideals, but their symbolic diplomatic clout remains formidable.

It must be evident to all by now that our strife is no longer in the sole control of a few high-profile politicians or military people. We need to re-evaluate our approach to its solution on that basis. If "peace talks" are to be held, they must not take place between chiefs in secret, least of all those who sparked the misery in the first place. They cannot be our saviours.

The solution will come in an effort involving everyone who has made a sacrifice in this terrible affair.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Any-peace-talks-must-be-open-to-all-30254536.html

-- The Nation 2015-02-21

[NeverSure]

The Nation just keeps getting better and better.

Kudos on a well written article which doesn't take sides but rather spells out the issues.

[zaphod reborn]

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate.

-- The Nation 2015-02-21

The only way to prove innocence is a trial. Thaksin elected to flee rather than prove his innocence at trial. Fleeing speaks volumes as to his claimed innocence of the charges.

[noitom]

This Thai nonsense is really getting tedious. The Thai press doesn't seem to get the idea of truth and facts.

[ramrod711]

By and large, we sense among Thaksin's opponents an impatience with the cautious process of democracy, whereas the Thaksin camp says democracy was never given enough time to shed its faults and begin functioning properly.

Democracy not given enough time? According to some on TV Thaksin won every election since the dawn of time. Strange that they don't hold him accountable for anything, nothing that has happened in Thailand, ever, is his fault. Every country should have a Thaksin, a white knight, to ride in on a white stallion and save the people.

[kalbo123]

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate.

-- The Nation 2015-02-21

The only way to prove innocence is a trial. Thaksin elected to flee rather than prove his innocence at trial. Fleeing speaks volumes as to his claimed innocence of the charges.

Could it be that he was dealing with biased judges?

[Bluespunk]

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate.

-- The Nation 2015-02-21

The only way to prove innocence is a trial. Thaksin elected to flee rather than prove his innocence at trial. Fleeing speaks volumes as to his claimed innocence of the charges.

Could it be that he was dealing with biased judges?

The one his lawyers tried to bribe wasn't.

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

The Nation just keeps getting better and better.

Kudos on a well written article which doesn't take sides but rather spells out the issues. alt=thumbsup.gif>

True , they have definitely grown a pair of late

[thesetat2013]

The idea that there is no common ground for either political side should be a sign that these political sides need to be dissolved. Every political party should share the common ground that they are a politician to help the people and the country. The fact that this has been negated clearly shows that these political parties are only self serving. Act 1 for creating a democracy would be to be rid of these self serving so called politicians and ban them forever. New blood. New visions. New hope for Thailand

[tomross46]

We must remember the thousands of innocent citizens that were murdered during the Thaksin war on drugs. Accountability must happen.

[TheDiva]

We must remember the thousands of innocent citizens that were murdered during the Thaksin war on drugs. Accountability must happen.

Any particular reason to pick out just that period in time? How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre, the 80 odd UDD protesters killed in 2010,(etc. there is a common denominator there). None of those responsible have been brought to account.

NB. There have been three investigations into the war on drugs, the last one being in 2010 under Abhisit's remit. Do you honestly think they would let Thaksin get away unscathed if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

Edited February 21, 2015 by TheDiva

[eliotness]

The idea that there is no common ground for either political side should be a sign that these political sides need to be dissolved. Every political party should share the common ground that they are a politician to help the people and the country. The fact that this has been negated clearly shows that these political parties are only self serving. Act 1 for creating a democracy would be to be rid of these self serving so called politicians and ban them forever. New blood. New visions. New hope for Thailand

Unfortunately Oliver Cromwell was faced with a similar set of "self serving politicians" in England and he organised a military coup to get rid of them, but it only lasted a few years before the pigs were back with their noses in the trough. The recent scandals coming from the UK has shown nothing has really changed in 400 years. I'm afraid the PM faces an impossible task, pigs will be pigs, no matter what country they are from or what political party they pretend to represent.

[Docno]

The idea that there is no common ground for either political side should be a sign that these political sides need to be dissolved. Every political party should share the common ground that they are a politician to help the people and the country. The fact that this has been negated clearly shows that these political parties are only self serving. Act 1 for creating a democracy would be to be rid of these self serving so called politicians and ban them forever. New blood. New visions. New hope for Thailand

Political parties can create divides but they also reflect divides. The lack of common ground between the parties reflects a deep socio-economic division in the wider society. Thaksin simply let the genie out of the bottle by showing the numerous poor and disenfranchised that they have power in numbers. As self-serving as he may have been, he gave them a voice in Bangkok (at least in symbolic terms). The clock can't be turned back. Dissolve the parties, and new ones will emerge with basically the same identities (how many versions of Thai Rak Thai have we seen?). Get rid of the Shinawatras, and others will fill their shoes. The changes and the reconciliation cannot just be political. They must be social and economic. Without that, it's all just the same battles being fought over and over again under different flags.

[Baerboxer]

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate.

-- The Nation 2015-02-21

The only way to prove innocence is a trial. Thaksin elected to flee rather than prove his innocence at trial. Fleeing speaks volumes as to his claimed innocence of the charges.

Could it be that he was dealing with biased judges?

Or would that be judges that wouldn't accept pastry boxes concealing bribes?

Strange how an "innocent" man tries bribery and then jumps bail, not even bothering to appeal.

[rametindallas]

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate. He would be unlikely to settle for clemency alone, since that would amount to mere forgiveness, when what he and his youngest sister need is for the past to be forgotten. Perhaps more importantly for Thaksin, mere clemency would dash any hope of getting back the money seized from his bank accounts following his ouster.

Is this some kind of Asian logic that I had no idea existed? In what world do you prove you are innocent by he and his youngest sister need is for the past to be forgotten? Amazingly twisted logic. How does that prove anything other than that extortion, violence, and the continued threat of violence, works?

Did Nattawut or Weng or Jatuporn write this?

Coming from a society where those who get caught committing crime face penalties, this proposal is the most ridiculous I have ever heard of. So, Thailand can't have 'peace' until it satisfies a megalomaniac, billionaire, fugitive felon, ex PM and his corrupt family? Not only ridiculous, but stupid because, if he gets his way, he will have a license to steal and murder again as he can afford to be 'popular' with the 'low information' voters because of all the money he has. How hopelessly stupid would any government be to, not just forgive but, forget the crimes and attempted 'soft coups' perpetrated by this creature that have resulted in hundreds of needless death and billions of Baht in damage. Thaksin has already taken his 'pound of flesh' in retribution for perceived wrongs done to him and now he wants to call it even if given a complete whitewash. This proves what a megalomaniac he is. The whole idea is hideous.

hid·e·ous

adjective

1. ugly or disgusting to look at.

2. extremely unpleasant.

[rametindallas]

We must remember the thousands of innocent citizens that were murdered during the Thaksin war on drugs. Accountability must happen.

Any particular reason to pick out just that period in time? How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre, the 80 odd UDD protesters killed in 2010,(etc. there is a common denominator there). None of those responsible have been brought to account.

NB. There have been three investigations into the war on drugs, the last one being in 2010 under Abhisit's remit. Do you honestly think they would let Thaksin get away unscathed if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre

Is Thanom asking for all his crimes against humanity to be whitewashed as though they never happened? Are Abhisit and Suthep asking for any special treatment? Have any of them used their wealth and power to create havoc in Thailand for years after they were out of power? Is your argument, 'Hitler was worse than Thaksin, so Thaksin should get better that amnesty'? The OP clearly states that forgiveness and clemency are not enough to satisfy this murderous thug.

if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

Here's what Human Rights Watch had to say:

Promotion of violence by government officials

Deviating sharply from Thailand's previous efforts to build the rule of law, Thaksin called for his war on drugs to be conducted on the basis of an “eye for an eye.” Prime Minister’s Order 29/B.E. 2546 (2003), signed on January 28, 2003, called for the absolute suppression of drug trafficking by means “ranging from soft to harsh including the most absolutely severe charges subject to the situation.”⁵ The document stated that “f a person is charged with a drug offense, that person will be regarded as a dangerous person who is threatening social and national security.”

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm

More than half of those murdered had no links of any kind to drugs.

Edited February 21, 2015 by rametindallas

[djjamie]

I completely agree that those who sparked the misery in the first place should not be accommodated otherwise they are saying that because thaksin is willing to use violence as he has in the past and if Thailand would like to avoid further bloodshed, it should capitulate to his demands and compromise, accommodating his desire to once again dominate Thailand's political landscape. Or in other words, bend to threats of terrorism and violence. This is precisely why a military coup was required in the first place to remove this corrosive, violent influence upon Thai society - and why it is absolutely impossible to afford this threat any further compromise or accommodation.

We are already seeing peace in Thailand I am confident it will continue if one side is held on a short leash. The majority yearn for peace. It is minorities that take it away.

[TheDiva]

We must remember the thousands of innocent citizens that were murdered during the Thaksin war on drugs. Accountability must happen.

Any particular reason to pick out just that period in time? How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre, the 80 odd UDD protesters killed in 2010,(etc. there is a common denominator there). None of those responsible have been brought to account.

NB. There have been three investigations into the war on drugs, the last one being in 2010 under Abhisit's remit. Do you honestly think they would let Thaksin get away unscathed if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre

Is Thanom asking for all his crimes against humanity to be whitewashed as though they never happened? Are Abhisit and Suthep asking for any special treatment? Have any of them used their wealth and power to create havoc in Thailand for years after they were out of power? Is your argument, 'Hitler was worse than Thaksin, so Thaksin should get better that amnesty'? The OP clearly states that forgiveness and clemency are not enough to satisfy this murderous thug.

if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

Here's what Human Rights Watch had to say:

Promotion of violence by government officials

Deviating sharply from Thailand's previous efforts to build the rule of law, Thaksin called for his war on drugs to be conducted on the basis of an “eye for an eye.” Prime Minister’s Order 29/B.E. 2546 (2003), signed on January 28, 2003, called for the absolute suppression of drug trafficking by means “ranging from soft to harsh including the most absolutely severe charges subject to the situation.”⁵ The document stated that “f a person is charged with a drug offense, that person will be regarded as a dangerous person who is threatening social and national security.”

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm

More than half of those murdered had no links of any kind to drugs.

I think you missed the point but it would be wasted on you anyway - read a little, find a common denominator for those responsible for the most deaths of civilians in Thailand since 1932. Do you really think that a PM order for suppression by any means "ranging from soft to harsh" would be taken by a (legitimate, non partisan and independent) court as proof positive that Thaksin was personally responsible for the War on Drugs deaths? What would that mean for abhisit and suthep authorising the use of snipers and live fire zones, legitimising the killing of civilians - they would be in pokey quicker than that. Note that I put a qualifier on the standards of the courts involved.

Edited February 21, 2015 by TheDiva

[mrtoad]

Hello Fab, welcome back

[rametindallas]

We must remember the thousands of innocent citizens that were murdered during the Thaksin war on drugs. Accountability must happen.

Any particular reason to pick out just that period in time? How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre, the 80 odd UDD protesters killed in 2010,(etc. there is a common denominator there). None of those responsible have been brought to account.

NB. There have been three investigations into the war on drugs, the last one being in 2010 under Abhisit's remit. Do you honestly think they would let Thaksin get away unscathed if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

How about the 3000 murdered during Thanoms regime, those responsible for The Thammarsat massacre

Is Thanom asking for all his crimes against humanity to be whitewashed as though they never happened? Are Abhisit and Suthep asking for any special treatment? Have any of them used their wealth and power to create havoc in Thailand for years after they were out of power? Is your argument, 'Hitler was worse than Thaksin, so Thaksin should get better that amnesty'? The OP clearly states that forgiveness and clemency are not enough to satisfy this murderous thug.

if they could find even the slightest link to the "War on Drugs" deaths?

Here's what Human Rights Watch had to say:

Promotion of violence by government officials

Deviating sharply from Thailand's previous efforts to build the rule of law, Thaksin called for his war on drugs to be conducted on the basis of an “eye for an eye.” Prime Minister’s Order 29/B.E. 2546 (2003), signed on January 28, 2003, called for the absolute suppression of drug trafficking by means “ranging from soft to harsh including the most absolutely severe charges subject to the situation.”⁵ The document stated that “f a person is charged with a drug offense, that person will be regarded as a dangerous person who is threatening social and national security.”

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/thailand0704/4.htm

More than half of those murdered had no links of any kind to drugs.

I think you missed the point but it would be wasted on you anyway - read a little, find a common denominator for those responsible for the most deaths of civilians in Thailand since 1932. Do you really think that a PM order for suppression by any means "ranging from soft to harsh" would be taken by a (legitimate, non partisan and independent) court as proof positive that Thaksin was personally responsible for the War on Drugs deaths? What would that mean for abhisit and suthep authorising the use of snipers and live fire zones, legitimising the killing of civilians - they would be in pokey quicker than that. Note that I put a qualifier on the standards of the courts involved.

proof positive that Thaksin was personally responsible for the War on Drugs deaths?

Yes, in any fair court. Did someone else promulgate Prime Minister's Order 29/B.E. 2546 behind Thaksin's back? Would the police have begun killing on such a massive scale without orders from above? NO, and NO.

Abhisit and Suthep may be guilty but they are not funding mass demonstrations and bombings and begging to be 'whitewashed'. How do you even begin to compare the deaths of thousands of innocents during Thaksin's drug war to the deaths of a relative few in an illegal mob attempting to overthrow the government (Red Shirt mob)? Your devotion to the DL is touching but shows you have lost all perspective. As they say, "Love is blind".

Edited February 21, 2015 by rametindallas

[jesimps]

Thaksin, of course, wants to prove to his foes and the world that he's innocent on all charges levelled against him, which means he would accept nothing short of a complete wiping of the slate.

-- The Nation 2015-02-21

The only way to prove innocence is a trial. Thaksin elected to flee rather than prove his innocence at trial. Fleeing speaks volumes as to his claimed innocence of the charges.

Could it be that he was dealing with biased judges?

Do bears poo in the woods?

[Thai at Heart]

We must remember the thousands of innocent citizens that were murdered during the Thaksin war on drugs. Accountability must happen.

If you were in Thailand at the time you would know that this was not exclusively Thaksins war on drugs. It enjoyed support from the very highest levels of Thai society.