NYC, Orthodox Jews in talks over ritual after herpes cases

[Lite Beer]

NYC, Orthodox Jews in talks over ritual after herpes cases
VERENA DOBNIK

NEW YORK (AP) — With a swift swipe of his scalpel, Rabbi A. Romi Cohn circumcises the baby boy, then leans down and sucks the blood from the wound as prayers in Hebrew fill the Brooklyn synagogue.

The Orthodox Jewish tradition known as oral suction circumcision reaches back to biblical times but it has created a modern-day dilemma for New York City health officials, who have linked it to 17 cases of infant herpes since 2000. Two died and two others suffered brain damage.

Mayor Bill de Blasio's administration, which came into power a year ago with a promise to reconsider an existing regulation on the ritual, is now negotiating with a group of rabbis over how to protect children's health while still preserving religious freedom.

"The talks are ongoing but I cannot go into particulars," said Avi Fink, the mayor's deputy director of intergovernmental affairs who has been leading the talks. "Our goal is to achieve awareness of the risks."

Such oral suction circumcisions are relatively rare, even in New York City, which is home to more than a million Jews — the largest Jewish population outside Israel. City health officials estimate more than 3,000 babies are circumcised each year using the oral suction method — formally called metzitzah b'peh in Hebrew.

A 2012 report by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention advised against the practice, saying it increases the risk of herpes infection in baby boys by 3.4 times that of other male newborns.

Oral suction circumcisions first came under scrutiny during Mayor Michael Bloomberg's administration, and the city's health board voted in 2012 to regulate the practice by asking a parent or guardian to sign a consent form indicating possible risks.

Health officials point to a number of factors they say have linked the known cases to the ritual. They look for lesions on the genitalia, indicating that's where the virus started. In addition, lab tests have showed that the timing of the infection coincides with the circumcision.

Two cases were recorded after oral suction in 2013 and four last year. In the most recent case, diagnosed in November, a baby boy was found to have lesions on his penis. But of those six cases, parents refused to identify the person who performed the circumcision — called a mohel — in four.

In the two cases in which the circumcisers were identified, both declined to be tested, the Health Department said. They were banned from performing the ritual.

The consent forms remain the regulatory standard for now, but most ultra-Orthodox rabbis have told their faithful not to comply, and the city acknowledges it does not collect them unless there is suspicion of herpes.

Cohn, an 85-year-old Holocaust survivor and native of what today is called Slovakia, is chairman of the American Board of Ritual Circumcision, which has certified 90 mohels, says he doubts the oral suction method had anything to do with spreading herpes. Cohn believes the infants may have been infected by the mother or another source.

"They're wild accusations without any basis," Cohn said. "I've done 35,000 circumcisions and never had an infection, of any kind."

The rabbi does warn parents that circumcision, in general, has its risks, just like any medical procedure. His association mandates herpes testing and rinsing with mouthwash before the ceremony, in addition to scrubbing and sterilizing hands.

The rabbi followed those precautions one morning at Brooklyn's Congregation Shaare Zion, where he circumcised week-old Yosef Sananas.

Cohn first administered a topical anesthetic, wrapping gauze around the child's legs to isolate the sterilized area. Then the baby, on a white pillow, was carried into the main worship space.

Invited guests watched as Cohn did what he's done thousands of other times.

"He's the best mohel in New York," says the boy's mother, Becky Sananas. "We chose him because we trust him."

While New York City wrestles with the issue, suburban Rockland County — itself home to thousands of Orthodox Jews — seems to have found a solution.

For any suspected case after circumcision, county health officials use DNA testing to try to link a baby with the source of infection. Since the county introduced the protocol in 2013, three infant boys were diagnosed with herpes; the DNA of two mohels did not match the boys' and the third test was inconclusive.

Members of the Jewish community participate voluntarily in the process, working with Dr. Oscar Alleyne, Rockland's director of epidemiology.

"That proves that they trust us," Alleyne said. "We have cooperation, along with a scientific approach."

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-02-22

[Choctastic]

Vampire paedophile Rabbis. Sick.

[taff33]

A bit young to get a B J.

[Clutch]

What a disgusting sickening act, all based on a twisted interpretation of a 'religion'

[sdanielmcev]

I know this is serious, but did anyone proofread this before it went to press? Comedians are gonna have a field day.

[Seastallion]

" said Avi Fink, the mayor's deputy director of intergovernmental affairs who has been leading the talks. "Our goal is to achieve awareness of the risks." "

Is awareness enough? Kids have died!

It's like saying, "We'll make people aware of the danger of something, but if they choose to ignore it and a child dies, well, that's just their bad luck".

The report that parents and rabbis close ranks when a child dies is concerning too.

When odd Christian sect parents refuse medical treatment for their children and the children die, the parents are held criminally responsible. If the cause of a child's death is suspected to be due to a religious rite, there should be legal leverage applied to ascertain the cause so that future deaths do not occur.

[Seastallion]

Mouthwash does not kill HIV.

" Laboratory studies have found that saliva may contain HIV, and transmission via saliva is therefore biologically plausible.".

Not all mouthwashes kill herpes.

Another couple of risks for the rabbis and congregation to "be made aware of"?

[harryfrompattaya]

I am sad NYC has better things to do hundreds of our blacks teenagers are kill by other black teenagers and the city worries about a little cutting of the dick.

Even through very few if any died

Edited February 22, 2015 by harryfrompattaya

[Dannyboy666]

I just threw up a lil in my mouth, Disgusting, Almost Sounds Criminal...

[Steely Dan]

I have no sympathy for any religious ritual or cultural practice that causes harm or suffering. I would however point out that there are practices which cause a far greater toll, which are more worthy of our focus. I'm referring to practices such as female circumcision, child brides and honor killings to name but three.

[iReason]

Simply, Barbarians.

Another savage reality of the cancer that is destroying the planet: religion.

[Credo]

I have no sympathy for any religious ritual or cultural practice that causes harm or suffering. I would however point out that there are practices which cause a far greater toll, which are more worthy of our focus. I'm referring to practices such as female circumcision, child brides and honor killings to name but three.

The NYC police probably attend to problems of female circumcision and honor killings with the same vigor that this is being pursued. I don't know that they are a big problem in NYC, however.

[car720]

THIS IS NOT OFF TOPIC.

Is anyone here a star trek fan? The thing that I find endearing about it is the way that all colours of skin and religions and philosophies and race and even species can all get along together in a little tin can floating through space.

That is, I believe, because of priorities.

I hope we are able to reach this level of human, and even alien, behaviour before much longer.

They have removed pettiness. Why can't we?

[canopus1969]

THIS IS NOT OFF TOPIC.

Is anyone here a star trek fan? The thing that I find endearing about it is the way that all colours of skin and religions and philosophies and race and even species can all get along together in a little tin can floating through space.

That is, I believe, because of priorities.

I hope we are able to reach this level of human, and even alien, behaviour before much longer.

They have removed pettiness. Why can't we?

And just how do you know they do all "get along" in their little can(?) after the filming stops ?

[mrowe1973]

The guy sucked off 35,000 babies!

[Jingthing]

Vampire paedophile Rabbis. Sick.

Vampire ... you are just being silly and intentionally provocative.

Pedophile ... there is nothing pedophile about that practice.

Rabbis ... Orthodox rabbis actually

Sick ... well probably not a wise practice, but if you mean sick based on being vampires or false charges of pedophilia, not really.

Personally, I support secular governments and religious freedom within reasonable limitations. Circumcision itself is justifiable in infancy as a medical option and in the U.S. the vast majority are done in hospitals. The specific clinical details of what some rabbis are doing I would favor that to be regulated by legal and public health authorities. Yes in my opinion, to the point of banning this mouth practice.

In other words, a middle way ... not orthodox fundamentalism with no regard to modern medical standards, but not this over the top hysteria (vampires indeed) either.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[Lissos]

It is a bizarre ritual, but then again many of humanity's rituals are bizarre.

[Jingthing]

It is a bizarre ritual, but then again many of humanity's rituals are bizarre.

Also keep this in perspective.

This is not typically done among Jews.

But a minority do.

From the OP:

Such oral suction circumcisions are relatively rare, even in New York City, which is home to more than a million Jews — the largest Jewish population outside Israel. City health officials estimate more than 3,000 babies are circumcised each year using the oral suction method — formally called metzitzah b'peh in Hebrew.

[Chicog]

Sick wierdos. Lock them up.

[Wat dee]

I just threw up a lil in my mouth, Disgusting, Almost Sounds Criminal...

And chopping healthy little penis ...crime!

[Jingthing]

I just threw up a lil in my mouth, Disgusting, Almost Sounds Criminal...

And chopping healthy little penis ...crime!

You know, we've had several threads about the pros and cons of circumcision as a medical procedure ... another one actually is current on the forum.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/793226-us-florida-boys-circumcision-spurs-lengthy-legal-battle-protests/

This thread is about something much more specific ... the mouth practice of a minority of rabbis.

Is it necessary to rehash the general circumcision thing here?

I don't think there is much support for this mouth practice. I certainly don't support it. But it is a question of balancing religious freedom and public health. It's a similar type of issue as when religious people deny their children needed medical care based on fundamentalist objection to modern science. That's more extreme of course and also you won't find much support for their right to do that.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Well, I think it is valid to raise as a political and medical question in New York, as there are so many Jews in New York even though only a minority of them are so orthodox that they choose to do this mouth practice. Female circumcision and child brides I don't think comes up much in New York. Honor killings ... perhaps.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[retarius]

Pretty gross stuff....why isn't it prosecuted as pedophilia?

[Songlaw]

Vampire paedophile Rabbis. Sick.

Vampire ... you are just being silly and intentionally provocative.

Pedophile ... there is nothing pedophile about that practice.

Rabbis ... Orthodox rabbis actually

Sick ... well probably not a wise practice, but if you mean sick based on being vampires or false charges of pedophilia, not really.

Personally, I support secular governments and religious freedom within reasonable limitations. Circumcision itself is justifiable in infancy as a medical option and in the U.S. the vast majority are done in hospitals. The specific clinical details of what some rabbis are doing I would favor that to be regulated by legal and public health authorities. Yes in my opinion, to the point of banning this mouth practice.

In other words, a middle way ... not orthodox fundamentalism with no regard to modern medical standards, but not this over the top hysteria (vampires indeed) either.

This "procedure" is neither medical nor necessary by any reasonable scientific standards. It is a barbaric form of mutilation fraught with drawbacks (many) which tremendously outweigh any erroneously perceived benefits (there are none). The Dec. 2, 2014 CDC report encouraging the routine circumcision of male infants is under review by both the federal government as well as humanitarian organizations, and facing numerous lawsuits and injunctions due to its reliance on both spurious and outdated anecdotal data that is simply not borne out by science. This pseudo-medical cum "religious" procedure needlessly removes 30% of a vital organ along with a great deal of it's functionality, while forcing an internal organ (the now exposed shaft and glans) to function as an external organ, which it is not equipped to do. In what f*cking universe does that make sense?

Ever wonder why jock itch and irritation has been such a pain in the ass? Or why so many of us need such a substantial budget for lubricants just to have a modicum of comfort during intercourse and/or masturbation? This is not normal, and is not experienced by the majority of the uncircumcised world. The interior of the penis is not supposed to be on the exterior. This is the most obvious indication that something is amiss with this procedure for those who have already been cut. The reality is, it is irreversible and leads to many potentially debilitating and lifelong conditions for no justifiable reason, while also putting the newborn needlessly at risk for infection and even death at the most vulnerable point in its life. Not to mention the fact that this so-called procedure induces a profound state of shock (ridiculously misinterpreted to mean that the child is relaxed and in no discomfort) in the unsuspecting infant, from which it should quite reasonably be able to expect to be protected, by both parents and medical professionals alike; at least one of which is ethically mandated to "Do No Harm." The fact that we are still debating this in the 21st century does not bode well for the evolution of intelligence.

Whether attempting to justify a narcissistic desire to have little Jonny look like his idiot father, or appease an imaginary friend in the sky (face it, no god would be stupid enough to insist on whittling a dick seconds before fellatio), or allow a medical bureaucracy gone rogue to think for us, we are sugar coating one thing and one thing only; yet another abdication of parental responsibility to protect our children from harm. What we do need is a concerted effort to educate parents on how to properly care for a foreskin, chiefly by not retracting it (EVER) from the head of the penis. It separates on it's own at anywhere from 6-10 years of age and will lead to complications if it is forced back prematurely in the false belief that it is "dirty in there," (it isn't) and needs to be cleaned. As for you "smegma" people, before you bring this up as an argument, do a little research on what smegma actually is and the purpose it serves. You, like I once was, are operating on outdated information. You simply wash the outside of the penis, as you would any other body part. ZERO special care needed. Don't cut your kids. They will thank you profusely later, when they are fully functional, sexually healthy adults.

[fatfather]

The dead kids may speak for themselves. Stop this nonsense of blood sucking

Fatfather

[Jingthing]

You might be surprised how many males who were cut either due to religion or medical choice are very happy with their modified member and just as grateful to their parents for taking care of this well before a time they would conscious of the pain of it later.

Again, is it really necessary to debate yet again the general cutting vs. non-cutting thing?

This issue, the mouth practice, is much much more narrow than that.

Edited February 22, 2015 by Jingthing

[humqdpf]

Mouthwash does not kill HIV.

" Laboratory studies have found that saliva may contain HIV, and transmission via saliva is therefore biologically plausible.".

Not all mouthwashes kill herpes.

Another couple of risks for the rabbis and congregation to "be made aware of"?

There has never been a case where HIV was passed on via saliva.

[Greenhill]

Mods! What on earth has this thread got to do with Thai Visa Forum?? Is there any connection?? Why is this thread allowed to continue here???

[Jingthing]

Mods! What on earth has this thread got to do with Thai Visa Forum?? Is there any connection?? Why is this thread allowed to continue here???

World news, anything goes.

[jdinasia]

Any mohel found to have passed herpes to an infant should be jailed. Other than that all religions are nuts.