Usefrukt

[eugeenva]

A man from Europe is married with a Thai wife. They live together in Thailand. The man bought a house and it is registered on the name of his wife.
In her last will, the wife writes that after her dead, the house and ground will go to the husband. But a foreigner cannot be owner of ground. So in that case, he has one year tome to sell the gound with the house.
On many sites I can read that a usefrukt is a sollution. If there is a usefrukt, the women can write in her testament that after her dead, the gound and house will go to the children. But thanks to the usefrukt, the husband can stay in the house as long as he lives.
I contacted a few lawyers about usefrukt. The one says it is not possible in Thailand. The other says it is possible but difficult etc. The other says: it was possible but now not anymore for farrangs...
My question: Does anyone have experience with usefrukt?

[CharlieH]

Moved to "Real Estate" forum

[UKJASE]

i was granted one last year at hua hin land office

[Anthony5]

In fact it should be all legal and no problem, but as with everything in Thailand, in real life it all depends on the guy who has to issues it. In this case the head of your local land department.

[iancnx]

I posted a long reply to this yesterday, but it disappeared into ether it seems. I have experience with usefruct. You have been poorly advised OP. YOU DO NOT NEED A lawyer. You wife needs to be resolute at the land office and not be 'bullied' at the land office. Costs less than baht 150 from memory. PM me if you need more info.

[UKJASE]

yea, you do not need a lawyer. we did not have one, and the cost is 75baht. great peace of mind for anyone who is granted one

[iancnx]

yea, you do not need a lawyer. we did not have one, and the cost is 75baht. great peace of mind for anyone who is granted one

Yeah 75 baht rings a bell now, plus we paid OTT for the photocopying. All in all cheap as cheap as chips for complete peace of mind. Another advantage of a Usufruct is that a bank will not accept the chanot as a guarantee for a loan should unscrupulous family members attempt that little number.

[bangkoklawyer24]

That 75 Baht solution will break your neck.

[iancnx]

That 75 Baht solution will break your neck.

Utter rubbish.

[taiping]

This is old info, but in 1983 I bought the condo I live in on a Usufruct Agreement, when at that time it was not possible for foreigners to own condos. When the law was changed to allow foreigners to own 49% of a condo (around 1992), the developer cancelled the Usufruct and put the condo in my name. Sometimes things work out well in the LOS.

[khunPer]

OP doesn’t need a lawyer. It's been written, that many lawyers are unfamiliar with usufruct (sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit) – or say they don’t know, as there is no fee and job for them – it’s a notation that is added at the back of the land deed (land little document).

It’s said that there may be some Land Offices not accepting an usufruct.

[stgrhe]

I too paid 75 baht for my usufruct possession right.

[sometimewoodworker]

I posted a long reply to this yesterday, but it disappeared into ether it seems. I have experience with usefruct. You have been poorly advised OP. YOU DO NOT NEED A lawyer. You wife needs to be resolute at the land office and not be 'bullied' at the land office. Costs less than baht 150 from memory. PM me if you need more info.

I would like anything that can help please

Thanks

I would send a PM with the request but there is still a problem with my account and a few others. I can recieve a PM and sometimes I can reply to one, but I can't send one myself to start a conversation.

Sorry but ThaiVisa is partly broken at the moment.

[swissie]

One more time: USUFRUCT means having the right to use land. house or existing business. This means, some gainful commercial activity must be part of it. Just to sit at the house, twiddling your thumbs will not satisfy the conditions of a USUFRUCT.

Remedy: Have "your" land worked by someone, with the clear intent of commercial use. If you do it by yourself, you will need a work permit. OR: For example, rent out one room of the house to seamstresses or whatever, to fulfill the requirement of "making use".

By not doing any of the above, your "USUFRUCT" is worthless and will not hold water in any court of law in Thailand. The fact, that the lawyers you consulted, were "unaware" of the term USUFRUCT is strictly self-protection with the goal not getting involved in any future legal matters, that the current government would classify as "Misrepresentation".

With or without USUFRUCT. If wife should die before Farang, it will be the moment of truth. If Thai-family has accepted the "long-nose" for whatever reasons, fine! If not, the Family will find very effective ways and means to get rid of the Farang.

THERE IS NO GOLDEN PARACHUTE FOR A FARANG IN THAILAND. With or without lawyer.

Cheers.

[eugeenva]

Thanks for the answers.

One of the days, I will go to the land office in Pattaya.

[iancnx]

One more time: USUFRUCT means having the right to use land. house or existing business. This means, some gainful commercial activity must be part of it. Just to sit at the house, twiddling your thumbs will not satisfy the conditions of a USUFRUCT.

Remedy: Have "your" land worked by someone, with the clear intent of commercial use. If you do it by yourself, you will need a work permit. OR: For example, rent out one room of the house to seamstresses or whatever, to fulfill the requirement of "making use".

By not doing any of the above, your "USUFRUCT" is worthless and will not hold water in any court of law in Thailand. The fact, that the lawyers you consulted, were "unaware" of the term USUFRUCT is strictly self-protection with the goal not getting involved in any future legal matters, that the current government would classify as "Misrepresentation".

With or without USUFRUCT. If wife should die before Farang, it will be the moment of truth. If Thai-family has accepted the "long-nose" for whatever reasons, fine! If not, the Family will find very effective ways and means to get rid of the Farang.

THERE IS NO GOLDEN PARACHUTE FOR A FARANG IN THAILAND. With or without lawyer.

Cheers.

You sound as if you are an authority on this section of Thai Law. Please share your sources. Or perhaps there is a case of law interpretation lost in translation. Please share the background to your particular experiences, because without this we don't believe you.

Regarding Lawyers. It is well known there is no fee in it for them, therefore they will much rather have you form a Thai company and part with your hard earned cash. Don't worry they can do an all in deal in this respect complete with shareholders, accountants, auditors, and a workforce if Thai Law demands x number of employees. Cost likely to be in excess of baht 75 !

[georgemandm]

One more time: USUFRUCT means having the right to use land. house or existing business. This means, some gainful commercial activity must be part of it. Just to sit at the house, twiddling your thumbs will not satisfy the conditions of a USUFRUCT.

Remedy: Have "your" land worked by someone, with the clear intent of commercial use. If you do it by yourself, you will need a work permit. OR: For example, rent out one room of the house to seamstresses or whatever, to fulfill the requirement of "making use".

By not doing any of the above, your "USUFRUCT" is worthless and will not hold water in any court of law in Thailand. The fact, that the lawyers you consulted, were "unaware" of the term USUFRUCT is strictly self-protection with the goal not getting involved in any future legal matters, that the current government would classify as "Misrepresentation".

With or without USUFRUCT. If wife should die before Farang, it will be the moment of truth. If Thai-family has accepted the "long-nose" for whatever reasons, fine! If not, the Family will find very effective ways and means to get rid of the Farang.

THERE IS NO GOLDEN PARACHUTE FOR A FARANG IN THAILAND. With or without lawyer.

Cheers.

Look on google usufruct if wife die the agreement still stand you are wrong cheers

[elviajero]

One more time: USUFRUCT means having the right to use land. house or existing business. This means, some gainful commercial activity must be part of it. Just to sit at the house, twiddling your thumbs will not satisfy the conditions of a USUFRUCT.

Remedy: Have "your" land worked by someone, with the clear intent of commercial use. If you do it by yourself, you will need a work permit. OR: For example, rent out one room of the house to seamstresses or whatever, to fulfill the requirement of "making use".

By not doing any of the above, your "USUFRUCT" is worthless and will not hold water in any court of law in Thailand. The fact, that the lawyers you consulted, were "unaware" of the term USUFRUCT is strictly self-protection with the goal not getting involved in any future legal matters, that the current government would classify as "Misrepresentation".

With or without USUFRUCT. If wife should die before Farang, it will be the moment of truth. If Thai-family has accepted the "long-nose" for whatever reasons, fine! If not, the Family will find very effective ways and means to get rid of the Farang.

THERE IS NO GOLDEN PARACHUTE FOR A FARANG IN THAILAND. With or without lawyer.

Cheers.

I think you're wrong. Although the primary reason for the existence of a Usufruct is to protect commercial business it is not a condition that any gainful commercial activity exists.

You're right about the Thai family though. If they want you out you're gone! I don't see the harm in getting a Usufruct but it's pretty much a worthless piece of paper unless there is business income to be had.

[eugeenva]

On the internet: Isaan Lwayers

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Usufruct%20agreements%20in%20Thailand.pdf

[whiteman]

As yet no one has mentioned that you can always lease the land from your wife for 30 years this can also be done at the government local office. I did mine last year at the Sri Racha office Chonburi but it cost more than 75 bhat all officially government stamped on the back of the land deed. Just giving you a 2nd option if the other falls over.

The office I went to would not do a Usufruct but offered the other option that was done with in 15 mins tops

[inkorat]

As yet no one has mentioned that you can always lease the land from your wife for 30 years this can also be done at the government local office. I did mine last year at the Sri Racha office Chonburi but it cost more than 75 bhat all officially government stamped on the back of the land deed. Just giving you a 2nd option if the other falls over.

The office I went to would not do a Usufruct but offered the other option that was done with in 15 mins tops

You can do the lease prior to getting married, but after marriage all assets and interests in the assets aquired are considered common property that is jointly owned.

After marriage it appears the Usufruct method is best.

[Xircal]

Wikipedia has an article on the subject in case it helps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usufruct#Thailand

[wabothai]

rent is the answer, for those who are contemplating to buy or to build.

When one does so anyway one will become subject to integrety and cooperation of a Thai family possibly in debt.

[hugh2121]

OP doesn’t need a lawyer. It's been written, that many lawyers are unfamiliar with usufruct (sit thi gap gin ta lord shee vit) – or say they don’t know, as there is no fee and job for them – it’s a notation that is added at the back of the land deed (land little document).

It’s said that there may be some Land Offices not accepting an usufruct.

Correct. Phoned land office in Pattaya who stated that they will NOT issue usufruct.

In which case I have a rental agreement for nominal rent only plus refundable security deposit of 3,600,000 paid.

Edited February 26, 2015 by hugh2121

[T_Dog]

IMHO they are quite useless. My wife and I just sold our house and land and I was not required to produce any identification as I released the lease on the chanote documents. A nefarious spouse could easily have another foreigner go to the land office and release the lien. Stories exist of exactly that happening followed by long court cases to resolve the issue. Don't invest anything in Thailand that you are not willing to completely lose.

[uptheos]

Usufruct will not stop unscrupulous relatives making a person's life utter misery

If the foreigner lives alone in rural Thailand it can be quite daunting.

[iancnx]

Usufruct will not stop unscrupulous relatives making a person's life utter misery

If the foreigner lives alone in rural Thailand it can be quite daunting.

Hi Ups totally accept that viewpoint. It does provide some piece of mind to many though. I had a friend where unscrupulous relatives tried to get a loan via the bank, the bank manager actually called his wife to let her know the chanot had been produced by the illiterate step father (apparently). Also a weak wife can easily be coerced by relatives bully tactics to get the chanot to the bank as a security. With a usefruct in place no bank will lend. It protects you both. Also if the wife should die and you have children to maintain and bring up without her, a usefruct also facilitates the word NO for pesky relatives to chew over. I accept nothing water tight but with the law unproven on 30+ 30 leases it is really the only piece of mind we have.

[Anon999]

One more time: USUFRUCT means having the right to use land. house or existing business. This means, some gainful commercial activity must be part of it. Just to sit at the house, twiddling your thumbs will not satisfy the conditions of a USUFRUCT.

Remedy: Have "your" land worked by someone, with the clear intent of commercial use. If you do it by yourself, you will need a work permit. OR: For example, rent out one room of the house to seamstresses or whatever, to fulfill the requirement of "making use".

By not doing any of the above, your "USUFRUCT" is worthless and will not hold water in any court of law in Thailand. The fact, that the lawyers you consulted, were "unaware" of the term USUFRUCT is strictly self-protection with the goal not getting involved in any future legal matters, that the current government would classify as "Misrepresentation".

With or without USUFRUCT. If wife should die before Farang, it will be the moment of truth. If Thai-family has accepted the "long-nose" for whatever reasons, fine! If not, the Family will find very effective ways and means to get rid of the Farang.

THERE IS NO GOLDEN PARACHUTE FOR A FARANG IN THAILAND. With or without lawyer.

Cheers.

Disagree with you on all 4 points and I have had a 30 year Usufruct for a number of years. It was made prior to having my house built. However, as I wanted it written in English and Thai I had a lawyer write it for me so it is a legal document. Obviously it cost more that 75 baht but it wasn't expensive.

[Arkady]

A usufruct agreement is legally still valid, even if the grantor is deceased. It becomes an obligation on the heirs.

It is not necessary to be growing something on the land. Usufruct allows you to enjoy the use and produce. Living on the property is "use".

Of course it is questionable how much a usufruct can protect you from unscrupulous people but it is better than nothing.

[bangkoklawyer24]

That 75 Baht solution will break your neck.

Utter rubbish.

Correct. And you do not need to be a lawyer to understand that such utter rubbish for 75 Baht will not solve any real estate problem. If you get a usufruct for free, that means that the Thai land owner held already the land on your behalf. Whenever the crackdown police comes in your town they will collect all these free-usufructed Chanotes to put them on public auction. You have been warned.