Phuket Immigration - Volunteers

[SDM0712]

I had an interesting experience today that I would like to share and wonder what others take is on this.

Part One

I entered Thailand on a “NON - O” visa granted in the Thai Embassy in London in 2011, and subsequently extended each year here in Phuket.

This is first point I am interested in opinions on. The form I use to apply to remain in the country every year is a TM.7, and entitled “APPLICATION FOR EXTENSION OF TEMPORARY STAY IN THE KINGDOM “. Once this is approved my passport is stamped with ;

“ PHUKET IMMIGRATION

EXTENSION OF STAY PERMITTED UP TO ……………..

………………..”

It is thus my understanding that my VISA is the original “NON-O” placed into my passport in 2011 and each year I merely obtain an “EXTENSION” to this original visa.

Part Two

I am going back to the UK for a short visit and needed to apply for a re-entry permit. I completed form TM.8 entitled “APPLICATION FOR RE-ENTRY PERMIT INTO THE KINGDOM”.

In my professional life I have to review and complete many official forms, which some people find complicated. It is my experience that the complication often occurs because people filling in the forms try too hard to interpret the questions rather than take them at face value, i.e. they interpret them as being more complicated than they are and complete them incorrectly on this assumption. With this in mind when I complete forms I answer exactly what has been asked without making any interpretation of my own.

Herein lies my issue today. To quote form TM.8.

Q. “… previous visa for Thailand is of the category of”

The word “visa “is clearly and specifically used. So does this mean the visa, and only stamp or document actually bearing the word “visa”. Or does it mean my annual extension of stay which does not mention the word “visa “ either in the application form or eventual stamp that goes into the passport ?

The form then goes on to ask where the visa was issued, when it was issued, etc etc.

In my opinion based upon the wording of the documents it seems quite clear that the visa was the non-o granted at the Thai Embassy in London, and each year I merely extent it.

With this in mind I completed the questions on TM.8 relating to my visa based on the only document/stamp which I have which actually mentions that term. Since the passport that the non-o Visa was put in has now expired I brought that passport to Phuket Immigration, with my current one, and a copy of the “ visa and both passports”. I am fortunately also in the practice of copying every other document/stamp that could ever be requested, so had no need to go to the copying office.

Part Three

This is a summary of the conversation that took place between myself and the foreign “Volunteer” Immigration Officer. I won’t name him as I don’t want to liable myself but it annoyed me sufficiently to start this topic. Although I use speech marks, the quotes are not verbatim.

“ I’m here for a re-entry permit, I already have copies of my passports and visa”

“The copy of this visa is not necessary. It is not your visa. Your visa is this stamp “, he said pointing at my extension of stay stamp.

“In fact “I replied, “You are pointing to an extension of stay stamp and not a visa. My visa is a non-o and every year the term of that original visa is extended. This form, (TM.8) specifies the term visa, which is why I have copied this visa stamp”, pointing at the copy of the visa, and original visa in the passport.

“ No, you are wrong. You have made a mistake. Your visa is this stamp”, he said again pointing at the extension stamp and with that crossed out in a red pen the visa details I had completed and wrote the details of the extension stamp.

I asked him if we had a problem, since I really do not wish to be held up in a queue and continue to be lectured in such a loud and disrespectful manner, as if I were a naughty school boy. I was apparently completely wrong, the intimation being that I must be quite stupid not to be able to understand the form and its meaning. It was in my mind to say that as an Englishman, English is my mother tongue and I am well versed in its use and correct interpretation, but thought I would hold onto that less I find myself being ejected. My “telling off” was continued by being informed that this chap did not get paid for this, only did it to help others, and I was lucky he was here to correct my mistake. Also that I should not make the same “mistake” again. The reality is that I have completed these forms in exactly this manner before and never had a problem.

This was the end of the episode and I was sent on my way to an extremely helpful and pleasant Thai Immigration Officer.

Epilogue

In my opinion I had not made any mistake and the matter would have been politely concluded without offence being taken on either side if the volunteer had mere said something along the lines of ;

“ I know it says visa but what it means is that last annual extension stamp”

Also in my opinion the Volunteers are worked very hard for no pay, however it is their choice to work there. I like to think that it is purely to help their fellow “ farangs”. However sitting in Immigration today the main complaint being aired, rather than being directed at the Thai officials was the attitude of the volunteers.

This has stayed with me all day, steam now let off, next time I will say “yes sir, quite right, I’m very wrong sir, sorry sir, thank you sir, have a nice day sir”. Actually that’s probably not going to happen.

SDM

Edited February 24, 2015 by SDM0712

[ubonjoe]

The non-o visa that gave you a 90 permit to stay is what they want on the form. You have been extending that permit to stay not your visa.

They would also want copies of your extension of stay stamp because that is what the re-entry permit is for.

The volunteer was wrong in calling your extension of stay stamp a visa.

Normally they want copies of both the visa you used for entry and the extension of stay stamp.

[nzexpat]

And ?

Did you receive the Re-Entry permit which is , of course" based on the last "permission to stay stamp" ?

[SDM0712]

And ?

Did you receive the Re-Entry permit which is , of course" based on the last "permission to stay stamp" ?

No “ And”

I had completed the forms correctly, as per the questions contained within the application form and was annoyed that I had been told that I had not and of treated so poorly by someone supposedly there “ to help”

SDM

Edited February 24, 2015 by SDM0712

[SDM0712]

The non-o visa that gave you a 90 permit to stay is what they want on the form. You have been extending that permit to stay not your visa.

They would also want copies of your extension of stay stamp because that is what the re-entry permit is for.

The volunteer was wrong in calling your extension of stay stamp a visa.

Normally they want copies of both the visa you used for entry and the extension of stay stamp.

Joe

I accept this. My grievance is more the attitude of the Volunteer.

SDM

[Briggsy]

If in doubt, photocopy, in duplicate, everything that might be required.

That way, when the requirements change, which they do regularly, you have copies of everything. And then when you return home, simply file away all the unused bits of paper for the next belittling experience.

With regards to the scolding you received, it could be that the officers who traditionally admonish the foreign supplicants for perceived infractions and foolishness, have delegated this job too to the foreign volunteers, thus saving themselves the stress of administering it.

[2fishin2]

Listen have a little patience with the volunteers, remember they are volunteers. They have a job to do and that is to ensure you have the correct paperwork before you sit and wait for hours. How would you feel if they werent there, waited 3 hours and were turned away from service because you forgot something or filled out wrong paperwork? Also, they see hundreds of people everyday all walks of life, all kinds of attitudes. Have a little empathy for that.....

[OJAS]

Life all round could be so much easier, I think, if Thailand were simply to adopt the visa practices and procedures followed by practically every other country on this great planet of ours - namely that you could enter from a date specified in the visa and had to leave by the expiry date unless you obtained an extension visa. But, since this would, of course, require a fundamental revision of the 1979 Immigration Act which I can't see happening anytime soon, we appear to be stuck with the present complicated and convoluted arrangements (and resultant endless terminological debates on this forum) for ever and a day, unfortunately.

Edited February 24, 2015 by OJAS

[SDM0712]

Listen have a little patience with the volunteers, remember they are volunteers. They have a job to do and that is to ensure you have the correct paperwork before you sit and wait for hours. How would you feel if they werent there, waited 3 hours and were turned away from service because you forgot something or filled out wrong paperwork? Also, they see hundreds of people everyday all walks of life, all kinds of attitudes. Have a little empathy for that.....

I treat people as they treat me. I have no patience for rudeness, it is completely unnecessary.

SDM

[2fishin2]

That was your attitude and im sure you took it right there to immigration also. So I can absolutely see why you come here seeking sympathy from complete strangers. Hows it working out for you?

[SDM0712]

That was your attitude and im sure you took it right there to immigration also. So I can absolutely see why you come here seeking sympathy from complete strangers. Hows it working out for you?

Sorry what is my attitude ? I treat people as people treat me ? Some people just don't like being spoken down to by someone who has no right ? or there being no such thing as luck, good or otherwise.

I am not looking for any sympathy, you have misunderstood.

My post had two purposes, the first to gauge an opinion on whether I had completed the forms correctly, the second to express my annoyance at being dealt with badly and wrongly.

SDM

Edited February 24, 2015 by SDM0712

[SDM0712]

That was your attitude and im sure you took it right there to immigration also. So I can absolutely see why you come here seeking sympathy from complete strangers. Hows it working out for you?

Sorry what is my attitude ? I treat people as people treat me ? Some people just don't like being spoken down to by someone who has no right ? or there being no such thing as luck, good or otherwise.

I am not looking for any sympathy, you have misunderstood.

My post had two purposes, the first to gauge an opinion on whether I had completed the forms correctly, the second to express my annoyance at being dealt with badly and wrongly.

SDM

PS

Just re-read your post and I see what you mean now.

You are referring this is as an attitude ;

"some people just don't like being spoken down to by someone who has no right."

Firstly I don't know anyone that likes being spoken down to, and secondly the reason he had no right is because he was incorrect in what he had said.

Hope that makes it clear.

SDM

Edited February 24, 2015 by SDM0712

[recom273]

are volunteers really needed ? My local office manages without them as do many others, is Phuket that different ? Although I hate the guys at my local office, they seem to be able to communicate with the Burmese labourers , the chinese workers and the English / non-English tourists quite well enough.

When you catch a bus, there is no English speaking volunteer working at the bus station and yet, foreign visitors get to their destination.

Just my thoughts thats all.

[2fishin2]

Actually they are very much needed. Phuket is extremely busy

[SDM0712]

are volunteers really needed ? My local office manages without them as do many others, is Phuket that different ? Although I hate the guys at my local office, they seem to be able to communicate with the Burmese labourers , the chinese workers and the English / non-English tourists quite well enough.

When you catch a bus, there is no English speaking volunteer working at the bus station and yet, foreign visitors get to their destination.

Just my thoughts thats all.

Phuket Immigration is exceptionally busy and with the right attitude and knowledge they are very useful and helpful.

SDM

[tolsti]

Foreign Volunteers at Phuket are very much needed. Given the language varieties in the local populace it is great to have someone who speaks your language/or close to it.

The OP had a bad day and was 'talked down at' by someone who gives his assistance for free. I wonder how he would have got on if there was no-one to help.... we'd have a ''Those bloody Thais'' complaint.

He does seem one of the Angry Foreigner' types.... hopefully there was no road rage incident on the way home.

Nice to see decent spelling and punctuation though!

[SDM0712]

Foreign Volunteers at Phuket are very much needed. Given the language varieties in the local populace it is great to have someone who speaks your language/or close to it.

The OP had a bad day and was 'talked down at' by someone who gives his assistance for free. I wonder how he would have got on if there was no-one to help.... we'd have a ''Those bloody Thais'' complaint.

He does seem one of the Angry Foreigner' types.... hopefully there was no road rage incident on the way home.

Nice to see decent spelling and punctuation though!

Actually I had a rather good start to the day. Arrived at Immigration early, got a space in the car park, watched a movie until the doors opened (Bee movie), met a couple of clients in the queue. Generally speaking I was in a good mood.

What got my back up was the “you are complete wrong and I am absolutely right “attitude. Coupled with “I don’t get paid for this “which seems to give him the right to be condescending and rude. It doesn’t. In fact as confirmed by UbonJoe he was woefully incorrect.

Professionally I deal with all manner of people, from all backgrounds, nationalities and all levels of wealth. I deal with them all equally with respect.

Actually because I work here with Thais I don’t really have the “bloody Thais” mentality, unless they have cocked up and then they get the same as anyone, even an Englishman (perish the thought).

Also if there was “was no-one to help” I would have got on just fine as I had all the correct paperwork, and a lot of extra “just in case they ask” paperwork, all nicely copied. Thanks to Baden Powell in my “youf” for that.

I do a lot of driving so you never know about the road rage, but I’m only angry off the road when confronted with an uncalled for bad attitude, or incompetence.

Thanks for the compliment on the punctuation and spolling, but I fear I must share the sunshine with my friend Spell Check.

SDM

PS To be clear I think any volunteers do a good thing in donating their time for free. But it is a job, paid or not, so only do it if you do it well and are happy to do it.

Edited February 24, 2015 by SDM0712

[digitalchromakey]

The volunteer helpers at Phuket immigration perform a valuable role in that there are many many tourists passing through who often know almost nothing about the process and they help sort out their applications.

In further defence, Phuket Town Immigration is now rammed and the volunteers are under constant heavy pressure and probably more than 70% of the service users haven't got a clue - it must be super frustrating work and very easy to lose it.

However the volunteers are not by any means all knowledgeable and can be phased by the more complex extension issues.

A common problem I have noticed is the way that Extensions of Permission to Stay are referred to by the volunteers as 'visas' and I have ended up having very long discussions with expats using the service who also swear blind the have a 'multiple entry visa' and not the extension and re-entry permits that are actually stamped in their passports. They will often repeat that 'well the foreign guy in immigration also told me it was a visa'.

I know why the helpers do it, they are communicating using the common (incorrect) parlance, but I have also been pulled up by them more than once when I pointed out that my extensions were not 'visas' and ended up having to 'smile and wave' rather than get into a row.

Edited February 24, 2015 by digitalchromakey

[orpheus454]

My take on this would be that you probably need to get a life...

[merijn]

Not everybody is perfect and can and will make sometimes mistakes.

I also can understand that they call the extension of stay a visa (which is not correct as we know).

Even the officers from the immigration call the extension of stay a visa as they think that this is more easy to understand for most of the people.

Therefore the volunteers also call the extension of stay sometimes a visa.

We have to understand that most of the people who are visiting the immigration office are holiday makers and don't know much about how everything is called.

But rudeness should never be accepted and i would send a email to them.

[SDM0712]

My take on this would be that you probably need to get a life...

Constructive. Edited February 25, 2015 by SDM0712

[long klong]

Dear SDM: You are absolutely right on both counts:

- the wording on the form is misleading but it's helpful to interpret it as to what is actually required in practical terms to get your job done. Government forms are pretty difficult to fathom, especially if they are in English in a non-English speaking country. It's best to not take them too literally.

- Anyone who volunteers for this kind of a job is motivated to help people. It needs extra amount of patience to deal with the kind of problem you raised. Sure, the volunteer concerned could have just told you that the wording is misleading. But it doesn't matter and you should just let him feel important - a little compensation for his hard work!

Have a nice day.

Edited February 25, 2015 by long klong

[SDM0712]

Dear SDM: You are absolutely right on both counts:

- the wording on the form is misleading but it's helpful to interpret it as to what is actually required in practical terms to get your job done. Government forms are pretty difficult to fathom, especially if they are in English in a non-English speaking country. It's best to not take them too literally.

- Anyone who volunteers for this kind of a job is motivated to help people. It needs extra amount of patience to deal with the kind of problem you raised. Sure, the volunteer concerned could have just told you that the wording is misleading. But it doesn't matter and you should just let him feel important - a little compensation for his hard work!

Happy a nice day.

As my dear old mum says, "politeness costs nothing"

Hopefully most do volunteer to help others. But I wonder, is there an element that are feeling a bit bored and unimportant in their retirement and want to put on a nice smart uniform, be important and tell others what do do? Perhaps this would be worth doing the job for nothing for some people.

Some of the visitors to Immigration are rude themselves and I can understand an equivalent reciprocal response, although it's still not acceptable for a Police Officer to reply in kind. But in my case I was not rude and merely correctly stated the facts.

I'd like to have a nice day, but am going to the dentist for the first time in two years, so that's probably not going to happen.....

SDM

[Baerboxer]

Listen have a little patience with the volunteers, remember they are volunteers. They have a job to do and that is to ensure you have the correct paperwork before you sit and wait for hours. How would you feel if they werent there, waited 3 hours and were turned away from service because you forgot something or filled out wrong paperwork? Also, they see hundreds of people everyday all walks of life, all kinds of attitudes. Have a little empathy for that.....

True - but they supposedly volunteer to "help other expats". Not to get satisfaction "from a little bit of self perceived power". If they can't handle that they shouldn't volunteer,

[mwbrown]

I wonder if these "volunteers" have the proper visa. We're told you can't volunteer to scoop up elephant dung without a work visa, and here they are working in an Immigration office... Same same with the police "volunteers".

[long klong]

Good luck at the dentist. Let's know how it goes. One can always use a good dentist! The Dental Clinic at the Bangkok Phuket Hospital is becoming prohibitively expensive and is now almost entirely geared towards medical tourism!

[SDM0712]

Good luck at the dentist. Let's know how it goes. One can always use a good dentist! The Dental Clinic at the Bangkok Phuket Hospital is becoming prohibitively expensive and is now almost entirely geared towards medical tourism!

Exactly where I am now. Hope the bill is less painful than the fillings!

S

[callaway]

Even volunteers need work permits. Was all his paperwork in place before critisizing others?

[SDM0712]

Even volunteers need work permits. Was all his paperwork in place before critisizing others?

My paperwork?

Yep, copies of everything in a nice neat plastic folder. But that isn't the issue.

[captnhoy]

Even volunteers need work permits. Was all his paperwork in place before critisizing others?

My paperwork?

Yep, copies of everything in a nice neat plastic folder. But that isn't the issue.

And here we have another misunderstanding. Callaway wrote "his paperwork", which I'm pretty sure means the volunteer who criticised you. What I consider as I fumble through this life is "You can be right or you can be happy". Unfortunately all too often I choose to be right.