English teachers in Thai govt schools face test

[gerryBScot]

The whole system is shit! Making teachers take an English proficiency test will not change a damn thing. They'll get a grade. Then back to business as usual.

Let's use football as an analogy. The best managers were rarely the best players - Fergie, Wenger etc were not known for their football prowess. Same with English teachers - being able to speak English well does not qualify you to teach it. Being a teacher is a massively complex task and funnily enough the countries with the best education systems - Finland, Sweden, etc - give teachers real status. They are well paid and highly qualified and they are well looked after. This means far more people apply than are needed. The Finnish national curriculum is written on two sides of paper - it basically tells teachers to get on with it. Teachers are managed by teachers and the politicians keep out of it.

I support the government's attempts to improve standards by requiring teachers to be qualified with proper teaching credentials. But what needs to happen is to support teachers in improving their practice in classrooms. I've seen more teachers than I care to remember, both foreign and Thai, walk into classrooms and order students to copy their textbooks into their exercise books. I've seen some terrible stuff happen in classrooms and I've also seen seemingly harmless things happen too which IMHO have no place in a civilised school - two year old kids in nursery, wearing uniforms, being forced to hold pencils and made to write, and getting abuse for not being able to. All directed by management with advance degrees in education and presumably exposure to educational theorists which would challenge the validity and morality of classroom practice.

The research suggests that what you have to do is support your existing teachers, help them change while on the job, and expose them to new ways of working. I don't really think getting a low grade in an exam will do this. In Malaysia they have been running a mentoring scheme for a few years - pairing native teachers with foreign expert teachers and trying to improve standards this way. Much better to do something like this here. The exam is a waste of money.

They might also want to hire a few foreign heads - bring in some big beasts with proven form from the US or Europe and set them loose on Thai schools. Just an idea! Of course they just couldn't do that but if they were prepared to support said beasts they would see an unprecedented level of change for the better.

Edited March 2, 2015 by gerryBScot

[Mr Somtam]

It's not just about grammar. There's also a listening test, that becomes more difficult when test takers answer the first questions right.

I had to "prepare Thai teachers to pass an A 2 level" on a weekend seminar, which is not possible when they can't even have a basic conversation.

A 2 level is pretty much beginner, so I'm wondering which level they have to pass.

There's no cheating possible, the spoken English is British English, which seems to be pretty much difficult for Thais.

It seems that our educational area xx office knew that already five months ago and it makes perfect sense.

Please see: . http://www.examenglish.com/CEFR/cefr.php Easy for me to score C 2 level.

Foreign teachers should make it to C 2, or Mastery level. I also believe that this might be the replacement test for non native English speakers.

Good to see that somebody obviously made the right decision.

I got C2 too! And I am not a NES. Took a TEFL course way back in 2001, the "natives" in my group were two Brits with very heavy accents and even heavier hangovers! They spent more time getting wasted than studying. There is even a comment on my certificate that says I have a better understanding of the language and it's grammar than my NES peers... So yes: Non native speakers can be equally fluent, have better pronuciation and understanding of grammar than their NES colleagues. Does that make them good teachers? No, teaching is a trade, an art even and I wasn't very good at it.

[thaitakeaway]

I will be very interested in seeing what these scores will be like.

I'd say, that all of the schools will try to upskill the level of their Thai English teachers in a hurry, so that they can score well on the exam. This might involve all of the school's Farang teachers being conscripted into additional classes after school, or some conferences/camps for the teachers.

Alternatively, they might just treat it as a pre/post test situation, with perhaps additional funding allocated for schools which show significant improvement. If this is the case, then the extra classes and seminars/camps etc might not start until the tests have been completed and results released.

But either way, it'll be really positive for Thai English teachers, as they try to improve their English in preparation for either the pre-test, post-test or both.

Also I think you guys would be surprised at what the Thai teachers will score, I know that most of you will of course have a very poor opinion of Thai English teacher's English ability. However, many of them are a lot better than what we think, they're just not confident to speak, or when they do speak, they have to think about it etc. Likewise with their grammar etc, they're often not corrected on their mistakes, so they make mistakes and never realise. With just a little bit of practice, and some criticism etc, most of the teachers will do ok on this test (Probably not "well", but since most of "us" have a very low opinion of Thai teacher's current English, they'll likely exceed our expectations lol. I'm thinking around B1 on the scale that Lost in Isaan posted, as B2 might be too much of a stretch for most).

Just got a heads up from one of the 46,000 peeps in the firing line - she and the other Thai teachers of English at her school in KK province have already been to 3 seminars run by a professor at Khon Kaen University, held over the last 3 months or so. They were given old test papers, etc. - a classic way to be coached?

Directly quoting her: "We've prepared for this."

We'll see. 555

[lostinisaan]

My eldest step daughter is 12 Y.O. From all the schools in the Korat region she has just got third place, so she is very smart (Takes after her Mother)

English, she is totally hopeless, she will not speak it because she is afraid of making a mistake.

What to do for the best result for her? Perhaps some of the teachers on TV can give me some advice.

She wants to be a Doctor, yes another Thai Doctor that can not speak English.

So she's in Prathomsuksa six, right? I can send you plenty of material in form of educational cartoons, books in PDF/ WORD format,worksheets plus various other tools for you. Some excellent programs, but also websites are free and easy to use.

Just page me and we can talk about how to get that stuff to you. I don't want money for it, to be honest. Cheers.-

P.S. Something you should do immediately, is to make her used to watch good English movies, suitable for her age. Cartoons are quite cool for her age.

And thousands of websites.

Edited March 2, 2015 by lostinisaan

[Neeranam]

Good idea , lots of Philippine English teachers about, some are pretty good but some have a proper Philippine accent and I don't want my kids sounding like Carman Miranda when they speak English

Do you sound like your teachers or your parents?

My kids learn 95% of their English from me.

[puukao]

I am an English teacher and this is quiet interesting!!!!

sorry, it is quit interesting!!!

hold on.....google....ok, quite interesting!!!!

lunch time...where is my nife??? oh, did i loose the game???

i will see you yesterday!!!

note: i am much worse at thai, but trying....all we can do. is tri. or is it trie or try or thrai or tao rai???!?!?!??!?!?!??! lol

[lostinisaan]

So... this is for Thai teachers teaching English, right?

What happens if/when they fail?

An inactive post at the MoE, perhaps?

[Somtamnication]

For 2 years, all I ever heard from the Thai English teacher was: Very hot today. I hope they don't have that in the proficiency test!

[SlyAnimal]

Just got a heads up from one of the 46,000 peeps in the firing line - she and the other Thai teachers of English at her school in KK province have already been to 3 seminars run by a professor at Khon Kaen University, held over the last 3 months or so. They were given old test papers, etc. - a classic way to be coached?

Directly quoting her: "We've prepared for this."

We'll see. 555

Which is the same way most students would prepare for English competency tests, by looking at the questions and then learning how to best answer them with a tutor/teacher.

Most of us, as native speakers, would need to do the same if we were going to also take the tests. As although I've never taken any, so can't speak from experience, I've been told that for some you need to know the grammar jargon (which many of us don't know), as well as what is expected in order to get full marks (choice of vocab + expanding on topics etc during interviews).

But regardless of how they prepare, they're doing additional study of the English language, which will improve their English.

Regular English lessons at language schools or similar might assist them better than test preparation, but they need that goal to work towards, else they wouldn't be doing it at all.

I really do think that this is a good step in the right direction for Thai English teachers. Although it's strange, as my wife hasn't read anything about it in the Thai news (And she usually sees most stories there 6-24h before I read them in English).

[lostinisaan]

For 2 years, all I ever heard from the Thai English teacher was: Very hot today. I hope they don't have that in the proficiency test!

Our English teaching staff meetings are always conducted in Suaheli. Aeeh, sorry. In Thai.

It's amazing how scared they are to make a mistake. Just wondering how long it will take to receive the order to "prepare them" for a CEFR.

And you seldom hear a word in Tinglish when you walk past a classroom where students enjoy an English lesson, given in Thai.

Can you imagine to see all of them walking around without faces? The hub of lost faces is facing changes, or not. Or both.

I can see good money coming in for holding seminars on weekends, which I already did last year.

The usual pay rate for such "events" is 600 baht per hour in our area.

You gotta see the positive side of it.

[culicine]

This will test "grammar" but most teachers in Thailand can't teach structure of writing, organizing thoughts, logic, critical thinking, and argument. Thais are lost when you ask them to write a coherent piece on any subject.

True, but I bet they will still not do well on this test. This may explain why our Thai teachers have been sitting in extra classes getting english lessons after school. This is not just government schools, but private schools also.

[Jessi]

50% of the Thai teachers in rural areas could never pass a real English test. And if the test was verbal (speaking) test it would be more like 90% could not pass.

Yes and you are almost 100% correct with that statement.

But we are just...

[Jessi]

There is a Thai woman downstairs that teaches English.

She charges 300B per hour.

She can hardly speak 10 words of English.

No she is not a qualified teacher.

Its all about Money, Money, Money,

[Jessi]

In 2002 I stayed in Korat for about a month, This Dutch guy and myself were offered jobs teaching English. I told this school that I am not a teacher, his reply was that is not important. The thing that is important is " To be white and can speak some English" The Dutch guy could only speak a little English.

The point I am trying to make is the schools don't care about the children's education they only care about MAKING MONEY

To me this is a very sad situation.

I'm not saying that the Filipinas are not good teachers or the Dutch or German but I do believe that only Native English teachers should be teaching English. I just hope for the Children sake they can fix this problem.

I think some members on TV took my post in the wrong way.

The point I am trying to make is the schools don't care about the children's education they only care about MAKING MONEY

To me this is a very sad situation.

I'm not saying that the Filipinas are not good teachers or the Dutch or German but I do believe that only Native English teachers should be teaching English. I just hope for the Children sake they can fix this problem.

Thai greed by the schools is destroying the children's education, because its all about making Money.

I notice a lot of non native speakers got upset about what I said.

[willyumiii]

I've given it some thought and decided that the question of "what will happen with teachers who do not pass this test?" is not a valid question.

In a country where even the worst students can not fail,

I am confident that no teachers can fail either.

This will just be another huge waste of time and money.

[Jessi]

I've given it some thought and decided that the question of "what will happen with teachers who do not pass this test?" is not a valid question.

In a country where even the worst students can not fail,

I am confident that no teachers can fail either.

This will just be another huge waste of time and money.

I spoke with Mrs Jessi last night about this & she said "Its just a waste of time & money"

[jdinasia]

In 2002 I stayed in Korat for about a month, This Dutch guy and myself were offered jobs teaching English. I told this school that I am not a teacher, his reply was that is not important. The thing that is important is " To be white and can speak some English" The Dutch guy could only speak a little English.

The point I am trying to make is the schools don't care about the children's education they only care about MAKING MONEY

To me this is a very sad situation.

I'm not saying that the Filipinas are not good teachers or the Dutch or German but I do believe that only Native English teachers should be teaching English. I just hope for the Children sake they can fix this problem.

I think some members on TV took my post in the wrong way.

The point I am trying to make is the schools don't care about the children's education they only care about MAKING MONEY

To me this is a very sad situation.

I'm not saying that the Filipinas are not good teachers or the Dutch or German but I do believe that only Native English teachers should be teaching English. I just hope for the Children sake they can fix this problem.

Thai greed by the schools is destroying the children's education, because its all about making Money.

I notice a lot of non native speakers got upset about what I said.

I have a serious question. Have you ever been to an upcountry school? Even in Nakhon Nayok it's obvious that the schools and the administration / teachers aren't making MONEY.

[Jessi]

In 2002 I stayed in Korat for about a month, This Dutch guy and myself were offered jobs teaching English. I told this school that I am not a teacher, his reply was that is not important. The thing that is important is " To be white and can speak some English" The Dutch guy could only speak a little English.

The point I am trying to make is the schools don't care about the children's education they only care about MAKING MONEY

To me this is a very sad situation.

I'm not saying that the Filipinas are not good teachers or the Dutch or German but I do believe that only Native English teachers should be teaching English. I just hope for the Children sake they can fix this problem.

I think some members on TV took my post in the wrong way.

The point I am trying to make is the schools don't care about the children's education they only care about MAKING MONEY

To me this is a very sad situation.

I'm not saying that the Filipinas are not good teachers or the Dutch or German but I do believe that only Native English teachers should be teaching English. I just hope for the Children sake they can fix this problem.

Thai greed by the schools is destroying the children's education, because its all about making Money.

I notice a lot of non native speakers got upset about what I said.

I have a serious question. Have you ever been to an upcountry school? Even in Nakhon Nayok it's obvious that the schools and the administration / teachers aren't making MONEY.

About Making Money, I am talking about the private schools in Thailand they are a con.

[laolover88]

They got it wrong already. They don't mean "English Teachers", they mean "Thai teachers of English" I remain continually baffled why Thais can read and write English, probably know more about the past participle and pluperfect than native English speakers, but totally incapable of speaking English. Is it something to do with the physiology of their mouths (or brains)?

[SlyAnimal]

I've given it some thought and decided that the question of "what will happen with teachers who do not pass this test?" is not a valid question.

In a country where even the worst students can not fail,

I am confident that no teachers can fail either.

This will just be another huge waste of time and money.

I think, from the sounds, it's not designed to be a pass or fail situation, but rather to measure the Teacher's level of English.

Although the ministry of Education will of course have expectations on what grade it believes Thai English teachers should achieve. Once they ascertain the current level of teachers, they set goals for improvement and schedule a post test to see whether the teachers have achieved that level or not.

The expected standard will likely be relatively low, so as to not discredit the Thai education system, but will be based on what is required for the level they're teaching. I'd imagine that scoring a good grade on the test, or improving their grade from a previous test, would then be linked to their professional development for additional 5 year licences and increases in their pay grade.

At least that's how I'd assume they'd do it, and this should result in higher levels of English in the future.

[CharlieH]

An insulting flame post was removed as was any response to it/quoting it.

[lostinisaan]

50% of the Thai teachers in rural areas could never pass a real English test. And if the test was verbal (speaking) test it would be more like 90% could not pass.

Yes and you are almost 100% correct with that statement.

But we are just...

You're pretty wrong about your post. Let's talk about rural areas in the northeast (Isaan)

Those guys who teach English wouldn't pass a test for a private Kindergarten in the UK.

And I'm not making fun out of them now. Nothing but the truth.

So 90 % would fail in written and verbal assignments.

[stevo2]

50% of the Thai teachers in rural areas could never pass a real English test. And if the test was verbal (speaking) test it would be more like 90% could not pass.

Yes and you are almost 100% correct with that statement.

But we are just...

You're pretty wrong about your post. Let's talk about rural areas in the northeast (Isaan)

Those guys who teach English wouldn't pass a test for a private Kindergarten in the UK.

And I'm not making fun out of them now. Nothing but the truth.

So 90 % would fail in written and verbal assignments.

You mean to say "90 percent of teachers that you have met".

There are good teachers out there. They are the ones that embrace the idea of a native speaker and learn from the experience.

The problem is the acceptance of those that do fail. That is at any level. Remember that the national average ONet, ANet and Gat grades for English are under a pass.

[tingtongtourist]

I am a NES.

I don't have a broad accent.

I have an excellent understanding of the English language (psychological testing - 97%).

I have created and delivered countless training courses to various sized groups during my 30 years in management.

I love to help people develop and better themselves.

I don't drink or do drugs.

I have an Associate Diploma in Marketing.

I intend to live in Thailand indefinitely.

I DON'T HAVE A DEGREE.

Disregarding the above point, why am I not allowed to teach English?

Err perhaps because you havent got a degree, and those are the rules?

Much the same as someone with a degree in law cant be a lion tamer.

seriously though, if you have all those things you should be able to get work easy, but dont expect a work permit and dont expect big$

[lostinisaan]

50% of the Thai teachers in rural areas could never pass a real English test. And if the test was verbal (speaking) test it would be more like 90% could not pass.

Yes and you are almost 100% correct with that statement.

But we are just...

You're pretty wrong about your post. Let's talk about rural areas in the northeast (Isaan)

Those guys who teach English wouldn't pass a test for a private Kindergarten in the UK.

And I'm not making fun out of them now. Nothing but the truth.

So 90 % would fail in written and verbal assignments.

You mean to say "90 percent of teachers that you have met".

There are good teachers out there. They are the ones that embrace the idea of a native speaker and learn from the experience.

The problem is the acceptance of those that do fail. That is at any level. Remember that the national average ONet, ANet and Gat grades for English are under a pass.

I apologize that I wasn't more specific. I used to live in my wife's village, met plenty other English teachers from nearby villages, but nobody could say more than hello.

I'm talking about villages 25 km away from Sisaket and it's pretty much similar from school to school. Not able to even understand, nor speaking easiest basic English. Their lessons are usually to write a chapter of an English book on the board and let the students copy it.

But I've also met outstanding Thai English teachers, with great ideas, not satisfied with the way their directors wanted them to teach.

Some of these teachers were way better than any native, or non native English teachers who work here, myself included.

Being good in English and Thai is very helpful.

Okay, 90% of the village teachers I've met...........

[Scott]

Just got a heads up from one of the 46,000 peeps in the firing line - she and the other Thai teachers of English at her school in KK province have already been to 3 seminars run by a professor at Khon Kaen University, held over the last 3 months or so. They were given old test papers, etc. - a classic way to be coached?

Directly quoting her: "We've prepared for this."

We'll see. 555

This type of teaching is known as teaching to the test. It is a very poor method of learning, as it only tries to prepare you for passing an exam. I work with a Thai-English teacher who is fully fluent and proficient in English. She earns an absolute fortune doing weekend teaching of students. Some of her private students are also her students at school, which usually isn't allowed and which is monitored very closely by the administration.

She does not teach to the test and does not prepare students for exams. She teaches them English (the emphasis is on grammar as this is an important area in Thai education). She meets with the parents and tells them it will take 1 - 3 years for their child to become proficient and that in the meantime, they may continue to fail test and not do well in English, but she does tell them they WILL learn English and they will eventually do well. She mixes Thai and English in her teaching, using English as much as possible but often explaining idioms, complex grammar etc., in Thai.

Her students are a pleasure to run into at the school because they start exuding some confidence and you can see the progress. I am always amazed when I see the test results, because they continue to perform poorly and her reaction to them is not to worry. After a year or so with her tutoring, they start to turn around. Some never get the really high grades, but, by God, they can go to a movie in English and understand it and they can carry on a conversation with any native speaker.

She is the head Thai-English teacher and so is in charge of hiring and supervising other Thai-English teachers. Most of these, however, are old school and can only carry on a rudimentary conversation.

Thailand has all the ingredients necessary. They have an abundance of native and near-native English speakers in the country and they are spread all over the country, even the rural areas. They have a very large budget for education and they have parents who are eager to have their children learn. Alas, like a bad cook, they add two cups of salt instead of two cups of sugar and the end product just isn't up to scratch.

[wayned]

If it's the same test that they gave about 10 years ago it's 100 questions, all multiple guess. I was teaching in Uthai Thani province and alll foreign teachers were required to take it also. It got progressively harder as the question number increased and there were a couple of questions that had no correct answer and a couple that had more than one. I thought that it was a little unfair in that the Thai teachers in the remote schools with no formal English program took the same test as those that were in the EP programs. The punishment for "failing" the test, and many did fail, was to attend remedial English classes during their time off period in October between semesters.

The punishment for getting the highest score on the test, which I did(96), was to have to teach these remedial classes but I did get paid 500baht per class, but the location was over 100 kilometers from my home. It was like teaching a room full of new M1 students with very little English skills and when they were retested in the end, same test, many had cheat sheets!

[lostinisaan]

If it's the same test that they gave about 10 years ago it's 100 questions, all multiple guess. I was teaching in Uthai Thani province and alll foreign teachers were required to take it also. It got progressively harder as the question number increased and there were a couple of questions that had no correct answer and a couple that had more than one. I thought that it was a little unfair in that the Thai teachers in the remote schools with no formal English program took the same test as those that were in the EP programs. The punishment for "failing" the test, and many did fail, was to attend remedial English classes during their time off period in October between semesters.

The punishment for getting the highest score on the test, which I did(96), was to have to teach these remedial classes but I did get paid 500baht per class, but the location was over 100 kilometers from my home. It was like teaching a room full of new M1 students with very little English skills and when they were retested in the end, same test, many had cheat sheets!

It won't be the same test, they gave out ten years ago. CEFR ( Common European Framework) have finalized their methods of testing and I hope that the tests have to be done online.

So better the teachers answer the questions in the beginning, so more difficult will the the following ones be.

First part is grammar, vocabulary and sentence structure. Part two consist of a listening test, where test takes will hear spoken British English.

An Asian foreign colleague I gave the link scored B 1, which isn't really good.

But to be fair, when they start their tests, I'll also do one, let them watch it and I believe all foreigners should be tested as well.

I'm pretty sure that they'll need to make various seminars, as the majority wouldn't even find the link, when you tell them:" Google CEFR Test".

For those who'll do such seminars please be aware that the going rate's usually 600 baht per hour.

Just say no, when they offer you 1 K for a whole day. The money comes from the particular educational area xxx offices. .

[mok199]

its a beginning and the first step to solving the problem is admitting you have a problem...hope fully more changes to the education system will follow...

[mok199]

My eldest step daughter is 12 Y.O. From all the schools in the Korat region she has just got third place, so she is very smart (Takes after her Mother)

English, she is totally hopeless, she will not speak it because she is afraid of making a mistake.

What to do for the best result for her? Perhaps some of the teachers on TV can give me some advice.

She wants to be a Doctor, yes another Thai Doctor that can not speak English.

Some children might be uncomfortable having a respected family member (eg stepfather) as a tutor - they are afraid to make mistakes in front of someone they see every day. Which is a pity, 'cos it seems you might be the best English speaker in the area!

Suggestion: dilute her discomfort level by offering to tutor your daughter and her best friend(s) in a small informal group. This way, the daughter will have her support group with her and will not be the only focus of attention, and her friend(s) will probably want to learn English from a native speaker for free.

My stepson got round the poor teaching of English at his school by learning directly with me. Now he is pretty well fluent and not at all shy about speaking - good thing too, as he is a flight attendant!

bravo sir.....i believe if a parent is determined to have his (or her) child speak GOOD english,it can be done,but it will take work....congrats