Netanyahu promises no Palestinian state if he is re-elected

[Linky]

Pity I'm not an Israeli and cannot vote... Netanyahu is my man!

Yeah pity that. ?

[Steely Dan]

Pity I'm not an Israeli and cannot vote... Netanyahu is my man!

Indeed the Israeli electorate should look no further than their neighbor Egypt to see how being Obama friendly does not stop him throwing you under a bus, as Mubarak found to his cost. I hope the overt interference in the Israeli election from people attached to the Obama administration is remembered. If so Netanyahu will prevail seeing as Obama has an approval rating of 10% in Israel.

[dexterm]

It was not a country during the British mandate and it was part of the Ottoman empire before that. But the region was always refered to as Palestine...

That's all it ever was. It was a region encompassing part or all of several countries. The inhabitants didn't call themselves Palestinians. They were part of other countries such as being Syrians.

There never was a country called Palestine and there never was a people called Palestinians until Arafat hijacked those names in the mid 1980's.

So what? The Palestinians are there now, and they aint going anywhere. This time the whole world is watching.

The question is: what is a Likud or ZU coalition going to do about that fact in a one state or two state solution?

It’s time to look to the future rather than playing semantics with the past.

Edited March 17, 2015 by dexterm

[Linky]

Pity I'm not an Israeli and cannot vote... Netanyahu is my man!

Indeed the Israeli electorate should look no further than their neighbor Egypt to see how being Obama friendly does not stop him throwing you under a bus, as Mubarak found to his cost. I hope the overt interference in the Israeli election from people attached to the Obama administration is remembered. If so Netanyahu will prevail seeing as Obama has an approval rating of 10% in Israel.

Don't let your hatred of Obama get in the way. There are many countries that are against Netanyahu.

[Jingthing]

All these years Netanyahu has been mouthing the mantras... there is no alternative to direct negotiations in line with the Oslo Accords...we have no partners in peace to talk to... when he himself was never willing to negotiate a Palestinian state. What a liar and hypocrite.

Ironically, Netanyahu’s legacy may well be that he himself destroys the Jewish state. The elephant in the room is “What are you going to do with the 4 million Palestinian refugees you are currently occupying in a one state solution?”

Full blown institutionalized apartheid, ethnic cleansing or full citizenship?

The EU, Israel's largest trading partner, will not tolerate the first two... and one would hope that even the USA wouldn't either. So it may well be that EU sanctions will finally make Israel see sense, if they haven't already worked that out in today's election.

All the Palestinians need do is sit tight, practise passive resistance, and shame Israel before the whole world flooding the social media with images of their daily humiliations ,beatings, and murders.

I agree. Years ago they were on the verge of signing an accord..and what did the Israelis do? They marched into mosques with armed soldiers in a "show of force" -- and THAT sparked what was called the infitada.

It was despicable the American media bowed to Israeli pressure--they reported all about the infitada and the clashes...but NEVER reported what sparked the infitada to begin with.

Americans are sick and tired of Israel dictating what Americans must think about Israeli. I have Jewish friends who hate the way the Israelis are treating Palestinians.

Ahmedinajad claims he had a Jewish friend too.

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!

It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.

It is radically SHRUNK from the numbers before the Islamist revolution.

It is RAPIDLY AGING (mostly OLD people).

I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.

The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.

Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

The proposed new "Palestinian State" has been declared by leaders to NOT be welcome to Jews.

Israel on the other hand, has 20 percent Arabs, and the party representing Arabs there in this current election is the THIRD LARGEST political party in Israel.

Some "apartheid" huh?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Jingthing

[Linky]

All these years Netanyahu has been mouthing the mantras... there is no alternative to direct negotiations in line with the Oslo Accords...we have no partners in peace to talk to... when he himself was never willing to negotiate a Palestinian state. What a liar and hypocrite.

Ironically, Netanyahus legacy may well be that he himself destroys the Jewish state. The elephant in the room is What are you going to do with the 4 million Palestinian refugees you are currently occupying in a one state solution?

Full blown institutionalized apartheid, ethnic cleansing or full citizenship?

The EU, Israel's largest trading partner, will not tolerate the first two... and one would hope that even the USA wouldn't either. So it may well be that EU sanctions will finally make Israel see sense, if they haven't already worked that out in today's election.

All the Palestinians need do is sit tight, practise passive resistance, and shame Israel before the whole world flooding the social media with images of their daily humiliations ,beatings, and murders.

I agree. Years ago they were on the verge of signing an accord..and what did the Israelis do? They marched into mosques with armed soldiers in a "show of force" -- and THAT sparked what was called the infitada.

It was despicable the American media bowed to Israeli pressure--they reported all about the infitada and the clashes...but NEVER reported what sparked the infitada to begin with.

Americans are sick and tired of Israel dictating what Americans must think about Israeli. I have Jewish friends who hate the way the Israelis are treating Palestinians.

Ahmedinajad claims he had a Jewish friend too.

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!
It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.
It is RAPIDLY AGING.
I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.
The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.
Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

I don't think many places in the world are welcoming to Jews at the moment because of the way Netanyahu has been carrying on.

In all his time in office is a peace deal closer? Is Israel safer? If not, then it's time Israel got rid of him and tried something different because doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result is, well, crazy.

[Jingthing]

I am talking about the history of Jews in Iran since the revolution. Well BEFORE Netanyahu.

[RockyBeerbelly]

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!

It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.

It is radically SHRUNK from the numbers before the Islamist revolution.

It is RAPIDLY AGING (mostly OLD people).

I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.

The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.

Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

The proposed new "Palestinian State" has been declared by leaders to NOT be welcome to Jews.

Israel on the other hand, has 20 percent Arabs, and the party representing Arabs there in this current election is the THIRD LARGEST political party in Israel.

Some "apartheid" huh?

Israel has 20% Arabs....but it used to be 95% Arabs vs. 5% Jews, until the Arabs that lived in Palestine for generations, were evicted from their homes to make room for Jews from New York, Paris and Warsaw, while they were send to refugee camps....some apartheid indeed....

[Smurkster]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!

It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.

It is radically SHRUNK from the numbers before the Islamist revolution.

It is RAPIDLY AGING (mostly OLD people).

I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.

The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.

Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

The proposed new "Palestinian State" has been declared by leaders to NOT be welcome to Jews.

Israel on the other hand, has 20 percent Arabs, and the party representing Arabs there in this current election is the THIRD LARGEST political party in Israel.

Some "apartheid" huh?

Israel has 20% Arabs....but it used to be 95% Arabs vs. 5% Jews, until the Arabs that lived in Palestine for generations, were evicted from their homes to make room for Jews from New York, Paris and Warsaw, while they were send to refugee camps....some apartheid indeed....

if those numbers are indeed true, its kinda hard to argue against a precedent for a Palestinian state...just because there was never a nation called "Palestine" doesn't change the bottom line tha one group of people were displaced and taken from their land to satisfy the demand of another people who for the most part lived thousands of miles away and have no connection to the Levant other than it being an ancestral home thousands and thousands of years ago....I think history will show that the 1948 creation of Israel was a HUGE mistake..

Edited March 17, 2015 by Smurkster

[RuamRudy]

That's total BS!

It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.

It is radically SHRUNK from the numbers before the Islamist revolution.

It is RAPIDLY AGING (mostly OLD people).

I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.

The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.

Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

The proposed new "Palestinian State" has been declared by leaders to NOT be welcome to Jews.

Israel on the other hand, has 20 percent Arabs, and the party representing Arabs there in this current election is the THIRD LARGEST political party in Israel.

Some "apartheid" huh?

Why is the right of return not extended to Palestinians, while foreign Jews with no ancestral ties to Israel are encouraged to settle there? Is that not racial discrimination (or apartheid)?

[BKKBobby]

That's total BS!

It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.

It is radically SHRUNK from the numbers before the Islamist revolution.

It is RAPIDLY AGING (mostly OLD people).

I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.

The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.

Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

The proposed new "Palestinian State" has been declared by leaders to NOT be welcome to Jews.

Israel on the other hand, has 20 percent Arabs, and the party representing Arabs there in this current election is the THIRD LARGEST political party in Israel.

Some "apartheid" huh?

Why is the right of return not extended to Palestinians, while foreign Jews with no ancestral ties to Israel are encouraged to settle there? Is that not racial discrimination (or apartheid)?

Someone will counter your post with some hairsplitting about jews and arabs both being semitic peoples. Lets say religious apartheid instead, even though arabs and jews are two different distinct groups of people. Edited March 17, 2015 by BKKBobby

[arjunadawn]

Ahmedinajad claims he had a Jewish friend too.

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!

It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.

It is RAPIDLY AGING.

I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.

The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.

Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

I don't think many places in the world are welcoming to Jews at the moment because of the way Netanyahu has been carrying on.

In all his time in office is a peace deal closer? Is Israel safer? If not, then it's time Israel got rid of him and tried something different because doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result is, well, crazy.

This last point is a valid observation but a faulty inference. Jews are not better off. Netanyahu is polarizing and increasingly unwilling to be strong armed. The conclusion therefore is... Netanyahu, a semi product of the forces arrayed against him, is the cause of... the forces arrayed against him. Really? From the suburbs of Paris to Michigan, to Sweden, to the uneducated throughout the muslim world who at nearly 1,000,000,000 cant read, are increasingly antisemitic because of a Jew who's name they cant spell or pronounce? How inverse this deduction.

No! It is not totally clear to me which path is best, but it is apparent which path is worst. The entire background drama of Islam waging war on the world and the drumbeats both sympathetically and unrelated to the Palestinian cause are reaching a crescendo that cannot be ignored; it is real, loud, and palpable. You can feel the drumbeats of islamic savagery. You argue the Palestinians are not that drumbeat, they just want reconciliation. I state- BS< and it doesn't matter in any event because Israel is losing the PR war against the rising sympathetic nurturing of radical islam which both directly and indirectly promotes the fallacious Palestinian claim to a State it never had. Yes, there needs to be a solution, but never at the end of a gun. Never now. Never when in so doing Israel concedes the greatest likelihood of further war.

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

[BKKBobby]

Ahmedinajad claims he had a Jewish friend too.

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!
It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.
It is RAPIDLY AGING.
I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.
The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.
Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

I don't think many places in the world are welcoming to Jews at the moment because of the way Netanyahu has been carrying on.

In all his time in office is a peace deal closer? Is Israel safer? If not, then it's time Israel got rid of him and tried something different because doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result is, well, crazy.

This last point is a valid observation but a faulty inference. Jews are not better off. Netanyahu is polarizing and increasingly unwilling to be strong armed. The conclusion therefore is... Netanyahu, a semi product of the forces arrayed against him, is the cause of... the forces arrayed against him. Really? From the suburbs of Paris to Michigan, to Sweden, to the uneducated throughout the muslim world who at nearly 1,000,000,000 cant read, are increasingly antisemitic because of a Jew who's name they cant spell or pronounce? How inverse this deduction.

No! It is not totally clear to me which path is best, but it is apparent which path is worst. The entire background drama of Islam waging war on the world and the drumbeats both sympathetically and unrelated to the Palestinian cause are reaching a crescendo that cannot be ignored; it is real, loud, and palpable. You can feel the drumbeats of islamic savagery. You argue the Palestinians are not that drumbeat, they just want reconciliation. I state- BS< and it doesn't matter in any event because Israel is losing the PR war against the rising sympathetic nurturing of radical islam which both directly and indirectly promotes the fallacious Palestinian claim to a State it never had. Yes, there needs to be a solution, but never at the end of a gun. Never now. Never when in so doing Israel concedes the greatest likelihood of further war.

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

So you dont want a Palestinian state to be declared (two-states)?

Shouldnt the 'Palestinians' in the one-state (Israel) get equal rights (same as the jews) if Gaza and the West-Bank becomes a proper part of Israel?

With the 'risk' of arabs copulating a lot and becoming a overwhelming majority.

[arjunadawn]

So please start answering them, any group of them. You can't because Palestine was a region encompassing part or all of several countries. It never was a country. Arafat began calling the so-called Palestine that in the mid 1980's and that's the first time in history that anyone called Palestine a country. Even then it still isn't.

It was not a country during the British mandate and it was part of the Ottoman empire before that. But the region was always refered to as Palestine unless you go back to the Old testament-ages. It had a majority of native arabs living there, anything else is propaganda and a lie. The area was not empty as some british guy once said and is refered to. The arabs didnt arrive at the same time as the jews. There were already a lot of native arabs living there. Some arabs came at a later time, but the area had a sizeable native arab population (majority). What they called themselves or what people called them is not relevant. Iran has been called Persia for 2500 years but Persians dont call themselves Persian.

Here are some stamps from Palestine from before 1948. The currency was Lira or Funt in Hebrew or Junya in Arabic.

Posters Edited for room.

This is actually a intellectually stunted thread. To assert Palestine existed prior to... any point in time as an independent State, with State functions, municipality, taxation, services, defense, etc., to create a fantasy in air; moreover, intercourse with no other entity in all of history is recorded in any country. No treaties, alliances, taxes, tributes, nothing. In essence, the State of Palestine is pure fiction and adherents are demonstrably Flat Earthers. Palestine is no more a state than Africa is a State, or Asia a State, or SE Asia a State, or the South Pacific a State. It is utter poppycock to intentionally revise history irrespective of the overwhelming facts. One might get lucky on nonsense forums like this and overpower an opponent who has to make dinner, tires, does not know his stuff, or is sick of the back and forth, but this does not victory make for those who assert Palestine existed EVER as a State. It is a backwater province of Rome, the Levant, Sham... it was never Palestine nor can it be found in any caliphate or related taxation or services literature that has survived- and most has. By internationally accepted definitions today a State of Palestine still cannot be stated to exist because it does not have Occupation and Control of its own lands! Period!

You can find a stamp with the word "Palestine" on it prior to 1948 no differently than you can find, perhaps, a stamp with Lewis and Clark and Sacajawea on it from some point in history; this does not mean they were Presidents, or a State. 3 dollar bills that circulated in the 1990s with Bill Clinton's face on it posterity can likewise be indicted for suggesting this was legal tender or actually meant anything at all; of course not. This greater area of the mid east has been called Levant, Sham, Palestine, for a long time, and this stretched variously from Damascus to various other points which do not compromise what is claimed today. If this is true- what is asserted, than the Sinai is an independent state too; as well as Suez, and Maghreb is a State, Khorasan and Alkinana are States. Its intellectual drivel and shames the worth of any modest faculty. (As a reference point the historical region of Yaman actually is the modern State of Yemen; the region of Iraq is now... the State of Iraq; so, history is not devoid of examples to reinforce my point. A different perspective, which again reinforces my point, is the region/State of Kordistan which does not any longer exist as the modern state of Kurdistan. With all these applicable and utterly related references to approximate the value of our approach to this topic how can anyone possible assert a State that never existed was actually a State that always existed? A region called Palestine was a actually State is utterly devoid of reality!

I began to collect some maps showing Palestine through time, as it has been portrayed by other powers, to make my point and then I realized, my point is made by all of them. Since all the maps available show believed and real borders of the land third parties declare is the region of Palestine I then invite anyone to show me one single nationally represented map reflected the Palestinian state borders; we have this for the region of Iraq, the region of Yaman, even the region that was Ouropa is still effectively called Europe. After all, a State that at no time defines and defends its borders doesn't really exist, does it?International law says no! Where are the Palestinian people's declaration of their state functions in history? Please dont provide the Bedouin narrative (besides, a Bedouin appeal demands a Gypsy defense- you still have no state). Look at the area we reference as Palestine; where are their State maps, please?

Its not that there are necessarily stupid people posting here as much as there are people posting here who presumably think others are stupid. Palestine has never existed in what is known historically as a State in all of recorded history, and was indeed of no real curiosity until years after 1948 (indeed, later). Maps, new, old, all, never record the State of Palestine until 2014/2015 when western school books begin revising textbooks to artificially create a State that never existed in the world (I cannot find such references).

Step 1- Erase Israel-http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/01/02/harpercollins-isnt-the-only-publisher-to-wipe-israel-off-the-map/). Step 2- Gaslight the fictitious narrative that this land was always Palestine (which is easy because it was), and add to the stalking horse truth the absurd notion that this region was a State (see posts above).

Step 3- Sit back and allow time and reduced education to redefine this issue to the uninformed or naive (see posts above).

The state of Palestine is even more elusive than the mysterious Jewish State of Septimania (Land of 7th Legion) in Europe proper- the difference is, Septimania existed.

Land without Peace or Right to Exist

Insofar as those to whom Israel is being strong-armed into making concessions with seek to destroy Israel and every Jew based not on national aspirations but religious invocations alone- true earnest, impricatory prayer with earthly instruments- I would not allow a Palestinian State either if I was PM. Handing the local arabs a State now is the same mechanism of indictment against the Jews for not fighting their deportation to death camps because it is, after all, the same train ride, different scenery! "Give 'em the land, load the cattle cars!"

[arjunadawn]

So you dont want a Palestinian state to be declared (two-states)?

Shouldnt the 'Palestinians' in the one-state (Israel) get equal rights (same as the jews) if Gaza and the West-Bank becomes a proper part of Israel?

With the 'risk' of arabs copulating a lot and becoming a overwhelming majority.

My above post regards the notion of a previous Palestinian State- there never was one in the history of the world and one of the reasons no State ever retained any firm cohesiveness of this land here is because of the value of this land as a conduit for armies, war, and the separation of worlds. This land remained on the periphery of all great regional civilizations; integral to really none other than the Jews, but hardly something that was desired more than a buffer from greater aggression. The Hittites and the Egyptians both had this perspective. The Caliph of Baghdad had this perspective. Sala adin's grandson had this perspective and actually sold Jerusalem for time. This was important to know one, including the Turks/Ottomans. It was just utterly useless except in its value to others. Indeed, over 100 years after the prophets death Damascus leaders offered the narrative that this was the "furthest mosque" the prophet traveled to, in his bid to move the seat of power closer to Damascus. Of course, the prophet had no mosque there in his lifetime, never went there, but nevertheless, a mosque was created on the temple mount to redefine the previous 100 plus years of history to regard now the Jewish temple as the islamic ascension story. It was utterly fabricated long after the prophets death. This land has only ever had value as it was valued by others. This line is clearly reflected in the movie the Kingdom of God when Saladin is asked "what is this land worth to you?" and he responds, after a pause "Nothing!" Pause. "Everything!" This sums up the entire muslim relationship with Sham/Levant/Palestine/ and Jerusalem. Because it was important to others it had value to them.

That local arabs have not been seriously damaged or abused is not questioned by me; I know it. I refuse to any longer consider this issue in a nationalist vacuum. If the parties that prompted motivated compelled and funded this State drive existed in a nationalist vacuum I would believe it, but I dont. Nearly all the players surrounding this affair want Israel dead, gone, forever, bye bye, and this renders the entire process chasing a dream, at one's own peril. There has never been in the history of the world an example where muslims have treated jews fairly and as partners. Show me an example and I will show you a liar, a defense of an explanation. It is anathema to treat a Jew fairly as Anwar Sadat found out and subsequent leaders, bound to his act, deal with daily.

So, someone is injured but that does not mean one should concede to what now represents the status quo. Evil is evil regardless of its regalia.

If one has never worked or lived in this region it cannot be appreciated how acts of weakness or compromise promote further violence. It is utterly true that violence brings peace; I regret to say. It is utterly true that peace begets violence in this region. Netanyahu is right; if Israel begins folding (right before they are scheduled to start being actually engaged), it will only encourage further destruction of the state.

[BKKBobby]

So please start answering them, any group of them. You can't because Palestine was a region encompassing part or all of several countries. It never was a country. Arafat began calling the so-called Palestine that in the mid 1980's and that's the first time in history that anyone called Palestine a country. Even then it still isn't.

It was not a country during the British mandate and it was part of the Ottoman empire before that. But the region was always refered to as Palestine unless you go back to the Old testament-ages. It had a majority of native arabs living there, anything else is propaganda and a lie. The area was not empty as some british guy once said and is refered to. The arabs didnt arrive at the same time as the jews. There were already a lot of native arabs living there. Some arabs came at a later time, but the area had a sizeable native arab population (majority). What they called themselves or what people called them is not relevant. Iran has been called Persia for 2500 years but Persians dont call themselves Persian.

Here are some stamps from Palestine from before 1948. The currency was Lira or Funt in Hebrew or Junya in Arabic.

Posters Edited for room.

This is actually a intellectually stunted thread. To assert Palestine existed prior to... any point in time as an independent State, with State functions, municipality, taxation, services, defense, etc., to create a fantasy in air; moreover, intercourse with no other entity in all of history is recorded in any country. No treaties, alliances, taxes, tributes, nothing. In essence, the State of Palestine is pure fiction and adherents are demonstrably Flat Earthers. Palestine is no more a state than Africa is a State, or Asia a State, or SE Asia a State, or the South Pacific a State. It is utter poppycock to intentionally revise history irrespective of the overwhelming facts. One might get lucky on nonsense forums like this and overpower an opponent who has to make dinner, tires, does not know his stuff, or is sick of the back and forth, but this does not victory make for those who assert Palestine existed EVER as a State. It is a backwater province of Rome, the Levant, Sham... it was never Palestine nor can it be found in any caliphate or related taxation or services literature that has survived- and most has. By internationally accepted definitions today a State of Palestine still cannot be stated to exist because it does not have Occupation and Control of its own lands! Period!

You can find a stamp with the word "Palestine" on it prior to 1948 no differently than you can find, perhaps, a stamp with Lewis and Clark and Sacajawea on it from some point in history; this does not mean they were Presidents, or a State. 3 dollar bills that circulated in the 1990s with Bill Clinton's face on it posterity can likewise be indicted for suggesting this was legal tender or actually meant anything at all; of course not. This greater area of the mid east has been called Levant, Sham, Palestine, for a long time, and this stretched variously from Damascus to various other points which do not compromise what is claimed today. If this is true- what is asserted, than the Sinai is an independent state too; as well as Suez, and Maghreb is a State, Khorasan and Alkinana are States. Its intellectual drivel and shames the worth of any modest faculty. (As a reference point the historical region of Yaman actually is the modern State of Yemen; the region of Iraq is now... the State of Iraq; so, history is not devoid of examples to reinforce my point. A different perspective, which again reinforces my point, is the region/State of Kordistan which does not any longer exist as the modern state of Kurdistan. With all these applicable and utterly related references to approximate the value of our approach to this topic how can anyone possible assert a State that never existed was actually a State that always existed? A region called Palestine was a actually State is utterly devoid of reality!

I began to collect some maps showing Palestine through time, as it has been portrayed by other powers, to make my point and then I realized, my point is made by all of them. Since all the maps available show believed and real borders of the land third parties declare is the region of Palestine I then invite anyone to show me one single nationally represented map reflected the Palestinian state borders; we have this for the region of Iraq, the region of Yaman, even the region that was Ouropa is still effectively called Europe. After all, a State that at no time defines and defends its borders doesn't really exist, does it?International law says no! Where are the Palestinian people's declaration of their state functions in history? Please dont provide the Bedouin narrative (besides, a Bedouin appeal demands a Gypsy defense- you still have no state). Look at the area we reference as Palestine; where are their State maps, please?

Its not that there are necessarily stupid people posting here as much as there are people posting here who presumably think others are stupid. Palestine has never existed in what is known historically as a State in all of recorded history, and was indeed of no real curiosity until years after 1948 (indeed, later). Maps, new, old, all, never record the State of Palestine until 2014/2015 when western school books begin revising textbooks to artificially create a State that never existed in the world (I cannot find such references).

Step 1- Erase Israel-http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2015/01/02/harpercollins-isnt-the-only-publisher-to-wipe-israel-off-the-map/). Step 2- Gaslight the fictitious narrative that this land was always Palestine (which is easy because it was), and add to the stalking horse truth the absurd notion that this region was a State (see posts above).

Step 3- Sit back and allow time and reduced education to redefine this issue to the uninformed or naive (see posts above).

The state of Palestine is even more elusive than the mysterious Jewish State of Septimania (Land of 7th Legion) in Europe proper- the difference is, Septimania existed.

Land without Peace or Right to Exist

Insofar as those to whom Israel is being strong-armed into making concessions with seek to destroy Israel and every Jew based not on national aspirations but religious invocations alone- true earnest, impricatory prayer with earthly instruments- I would not allow a Palestinian State either if I was PM. Handing the local arabs a State now is the same mechanism of indictment against the Jews for not fighting their deportation to death camps because it is, after all, the same train ride, different scenery! "Give 'em the land, load the cattle cars!"

Khorasan is a very large historical region encompassing several countries. The peoples of Khorasan is not one or two groups of people, its several. Theres no group of people to claim it as a state anyway.

Im curious about your view on how a one-state solution could be made fair with equal rights and democratic with no regards to religion.

Edited March 17, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Linky]

Ahmedinajad claims he had a Jewish friend too.

Iran has a thriving jewish community. The biggest in ME outside Israel. They are not subject to discrimination or persecution. No propaganda, please.

That's total BS!
It is a TINY Jewish community kept around for PROPAGANDA purposes.
It is RAPIDLY AGING.
I have only met one Persian Jew in the U.S. and he told me Jews were DEFINITELY PERSECUTED by the Islamist government there.
The guy was also gay ... so yes, he was destined for execution by the Islamo-fascists.
Sure it is "large" by Middle East standards except for Israel ONLY because the Middle East in general is not a welcoming place for Jews.

I don't think many places in the world are welcoming to Jews at the moment because of the way Netanyahu has been carrying on.

In all his time in office is a peace deal closer? Is Israel safer? If not, then it's time Israel got rid of him and tried something different because doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result is, well, crazy.

This last point is a valid observation but a faulty inference. Jews are not better off. Netanyahu is polarizing and increasingly unwilling to be strong armed. The conclusion therefore is... Netanyahu, a semi product of the forces arrayed against him, is the cause of... the forces arrayed against him. Really? From the suburbs of Paris to Michigan, to Sweden, to the uneducated throughout the muslim world who at nearly 1,000,000,000 cant read, are increasingly antisemitic because of a Jew who's name they cant spell or pronounce? How inverse this deduction.

No! It is not totally clear to me which path is best, but it is apparent which path is worst. The entire background drama of Islam waging war on the world and the drumbeats both sympathetically and unrelated to the Palestinian cause are reaching a crescendo that cannot be ignored; it is real, loud, and palpable. You can feel the drumbeats of islamic savagery. You argue the Palestinians are not that drumbeat, they just want reconciliation. I state- BS< and it doesn't matter in any event because Israel is losing the PR war against the rising sympathetic nurturing of radical islam which both directly and indirectly promotes the fallacious Palestinian claim to a State it never had. Yes, there needs to be a solution, but never at the end of a gun. Never now. Never when in so doing Israel concedes the greatest likelihood of further war.

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

Oh please stop with the hyperbole. Islam has not waged any war. Terrorists have. Majority of Muslims are just as incensed as non muslims at what has been going on. Pakistan has reintroduced the death penalty to deal with these terrorists. Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, all deal with theses terrorists. These are muslim based countries. So to say it is an Islamic war against the world is just plain wrong and by saying it you are showing yourself to be just as extreme in your views as the terrorists are.

It is also way off topic.

Yes, Netanyahu is the cause of Israel's increasing problems as he keeps doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. Time for a change of tact. If Israel doesn't change the rest of the world will further isolate Israel and it will get what it deserves.

[RockyBeerbelly]

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

What you are describing here is exactly what happened when the first Jewish settlers arrived in 1948. They build an army, lead by members of the Jewish Terrorist organization of the 1930ies "Irgun" (of which political part became Herut and later Likud), with the sole purpose of eradicating as many Arabs from "their land" as possible. Sadly the Israeli continue to murder innocent Palestinian men, women and children, for no reason other then that they are Palestinians/Muslims, and for the simple fact that they can, because the Israeli are never reprimanded for the atrocities they committed. Any argument contrary is utter deceit, ignorance or worse....

I wouldn't go as far as to say that all Israeli want all Palestinians dead, but the fascist Likud party surely doesn't give a damn about the life of a Palestinian.

Edited March 17, 2015 by RockyBeerbelly

[Seastallion]

So you dont want a Palestinian state to be declared (two-states)?

Shouldnt the 'Palestinians' in the one-state (Israel) get equal rights (same as the jews) if Gaza and the West-Bank becomes a proper part of Israel?

With the 'risk' of arabs copulating a lot and becoming a overwhelming majority.

My above post regards the notion of a previous Palestinian State- there never was one in the history of the world and one of the reasons no State ever retained any firm cohesiveness of this land here is because of the value of this land as a conduit for armies, war, and the separation of worlds. This land remained on the periphery of all great regional civilizations; integral to really none other than the Jews, but hardly something that was desired more than a buffer from greater aggression. The Hittites and the Egyptians both had this perspective. The Caliph of Baghdad had this perspective. Sala adin's grandson had this perspective and actually sold Jerusalem for time. This was important to know one, including the Turks/Ottomans. It was just utterly useless except in its value to others. Indeed, over 100 years after the prophets death Damascus leaders offered the narrative that this was the "furthest mosque" the prophet traveled to, in his bid to move the seat of power closer to Damascus. Of course, the prophet had no mosque there in his lifetime, never went there, but nevertheless, a mosque was created on the temple mount to redefine the previous 100 plus years of history to regard now the Jewish temple as the islamic ascension story. It was utterly fabricated long after the prophets death. This land has only ever had value as it was valued by others. This line is clearly reflected in the movie the Kingdom of God when Saladin is asked "what is this land worth to you?" and he responds, after a pause "Nothing!" Pause. "Everything!" This sums up the entire muslim relationship with Sham/Levant/Palestine/ and Jerusalem. Because it was important to others it had value to them.

That local arabs have not been seriously damaged or abused is not questioned by me; I know it. I refuse to any longer consider this issue in a nationalist vacuum. If the parties that prompted motivated compelled and funded this State drive existed in a nationalist vacuum I would believe it, but I dont. Nearly all the players surrounding this affair want Israel dead, gone, forever, bye bye, and this renders the entire process chasing a dream, at one's own peril. There has never been in the history of the world an example where muslims have treated jews fairly and as partners. Show me an example and I will show you a liar, a defense of an explanation. It is anathema to treat a Jew fairly as Anwar Sadat found out and subsequent leaders, bound to his act, deal with daily.

So, someone is injured but that does not mean one should concede to what now represents the status quo. Evil is evil regardless of its regalia.

If one has never worked or lived in this region it cannot be appreciated how acts of weakness or compromise promote further violence. It is utterly true that violence brings peace; I regret to say. It is utterly true that peace begets violence in this region. Netanyahu is right; if Israel begins folding (right before they are scheduled to start being actually engaged), it will only encourage further destruction of the state.

" There has never been in the history of the world an example where muslims have treated jews fairly and as partners. Show me an example and I will show you a liar,"

The Caliphate of Damascus in it's conquest of Spain had over 400 years of harmonious rule, treating Jew and Christian very well indeed. Mosques, temples and churches all thriving. (The Moors also introduced such a multitude of wonderful things and education, but that's another long story).

From Wiki; life under Muslim rule was one of great opportunity in comparison to that under prior Catholic Visigoths, as testified by the influx of Jews from abroad. To Jews throughout the Catholic and Muslim worlds, Iberia was seen as a land of relative tolerance and opportunity. Following initial Arab-Berber victories, and especially with the establishment of Umayyad rule by Abd-ar-Rahman I in 755, the native Jewish community was joined by Jews from the rest of Europe, as well as from Arab territories, from Morocco to Babylon (Assis, p. 12; Sarna, p. 324). Thus the Sephardim found themselves enriched culturally, intellectually, and religiously by the commingling of diverse Jewish traditions. Contacts with Middle Eastern communities were strengthened, and it was during this time that the influence of the Babylonianacademies of Sura and Pumbedita was at its greatest.

Jews moving to Spain under Moorish rule? Because it was a land of opportunity?

Go on, show us a liar...

But all that nonsense is way beside the point.

What to do with 4 million Palestinians? That there never was a state of Palestine is a ludicrous deflection favouring an Israeli state from the river to the sea (as Likud hopes for). What exactly do you propose to do with these oppressed people?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Seastallion

[Ulysses G.]

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

What you are describing here is exactly what happened when the first Jewish settlers arrived in 1948.

What kind of idiotic version of make believe "history" is this? In its 3,000 years of history, Jerusalem has been destroyed seventeen times and reborn eighteen times. During these periods of disbursing, there has always remained a constant Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. I'm not sure what "first" Jewish settlers you are referring to.

The Palestinians refused an offer from the UN to form their own country in 1948 and attacked Israel for accepting. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place, turned down the offer for an independent nation, went to war instead and LOST over and over again..

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Wat dee]

No. There has never been an independent Arab country called Palestine - ever.

You are wrong.

Palestine - the country and the people have existed since antiquity.

They were part of the Ottoman Empire for six centuries, and from 1920 to 1948 Palestine was administered by the British under a mandate obtained from the League of Nations.

Independence is relative. No country in the Middle East has been continuously independent throughout it's history.

Sweden announced that it will recognize the state of Palestine, becoming the first member of the European Union to do so. Stefan Lofven became the prime minister of a new center-left government this month and used his inaugural address to parliament to say that a “two-state solution requires mutual recognition and a will to peaceful co-existence. Sweden will therefore recognize the state of Palestine.”

Currently, more than 130 countries officially recognize Palestine

http://qz.com/276164/all-the-countries-including-sweden-that-now-recognize-palestinian-statehood/

Embarrassing to see so how far ahead can some "less civilized" countries be.

[BKKBobby]

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

What you are describing here is exactly what happened when the first Jewish settlers arrived in 1948.

What kind of idiotic version of make believe "history" is this? In its 3,000 years of history, Jerusalem has been destroyed seventeen times and eighteen times reborn. During these periods of disbursement, there has always remained a constant Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. I'm not sure what "first" Jewish settlers you are referring to.

The Palestinians refused an offer from the UN to form their own country in 1948 and attacked Israel for accepting. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place, turned down the offer for an independent nation, went to war instead and LOST over and over again..

Presence is a broad word.

Presence as in a handfull of sheepherder familys? I dont know.

Edited March 17, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Ulysses G.]

Here are some stamps from Palestine from before 1948. The currency was Lira or Funt in Hebrew or Junya in Arabic.

Those stamps and currency were from the time of the British Mandate and for the the whole Ottoman Empire. All the denominations were trilingual in Arabic, English and Hebrew. The Hebrew inscription includes the initials Alef Yud after "Palestina", for "Eretz Yisrael" (Land of Israel).

There was NO independent Arab country called Palestine - EVER.

[ggold]

There ARE no Palestinian borders. They turned down the UN deal and have agreed to negotiate any future borders with Israel.

So is the settlements and the continuing of settlements (expansion) legitimate in your view? The US government havnt had that view even though it always have been pro-Israel.

Its not legitimate in the view of the majority of the people on this planet (the people who know about the Palestinian-Israel disputes).

That obviously doesn't include you!

[BKKBobby]

There ARE no Palestinian borders. They turned down the UN deal and have agreed to negotiate any future borders with Israel.

So is the settlements and the continuing of settlements (expansion) legitimate in your view? The US government havnt had that view even though it always have been pro-Israel.

Its not legitimate in the view of the majority of the people on this planet (the people who know about the Palestinian-Israel disputes).

That obviously doesn't include you!

A witty reply by a dimwit. Edited March 17, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Ulysses G.]

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

What you are describing here is exactly what happened when the first Jewish settlers arrived in 1948.

What kind of idiotic version of make believe "history" is this? In its 3,000 years of history, Jerusalem has been destroyed seventeen times and eighteen times reborn. During these periods of disbursement, there has always remained a constant Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. I'm not sure what "first" Jewish settlers you are referring to.

The Palestinians refused an offer from the UN to form their own country in 1948 and attacked Israel for accepting. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place, turned down the offer for an independent nation, went to war instead and LOST over and over again..

Presence is a broad word.

Presence as in Jews constantly living there. Presense as in maintaining a continuous presence for more than 3,000 years, according to overwhelming literary, archaeological and historical evidence.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[RuamRudy]

Presence as in Jews constantly living there. Presense as in maintaining a continuous presence for more than 3,000 years, according to overwhelming literary, archaeological and historical evidence.

And have they, since 1,000 BC, been continuously living in what the international community would consider meets the definition of a country?

You are claiming that the Palestinians have no rights to their land because they did not live within the western definition of a country. But at least these people have direct, tangible connections with the very land they are trying to reclaim, not some vague archeological evidence that, interesting as it is, is nothing more than a lesson in ancient history.

[ggold]

Staking Out Israel’s Lawful Claims to the West Bank

Proponents of fairness and equity who have advocated against some of Israel’s most pernicious detractors have often advanced several well-reasoned arguments against further Israeli West Bank withdrawals and Palestinian statehood. Key among those arguments are that the Palestinian leadership is rejectionist, duplicitous, incites violence, is non-democratic and, in general, is not committed to a two-state solution recognizing Israel’s rights to exist within safe and secure boundaries. While all of these positions are accurate and by themselves would constitute sound reasoning to reject additional Israeli territorial concessions, there exits one reason above all others that favors the Israeli viewpoint; simply that Israel’s legal claims to the West Bank are far superior to those of the Palestinians’ under international law.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2013/ari-lieberman/staking-out-israels-lawful-claims-to-the-west-bank/

[RockyBeerbelly]

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

What you are describing here is exactly what happened when the first Jewish settlers arrived in 1948.

What kind of idiotic version of make believe "history" is this? In its 3,000 years of history, Jerusalem has been destroyed seventeen times and reborn eighteen times. During these periods of disbursing, there has always remained a constant Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. I'm not sure what "first" Jewish settlers you are referring to.

The Palestinians refused an offer from the UN to form their own country in 1948 and attacked Israel for accepting. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place, turned down the offer for an independent nation, went to war instead and LOST over and over again..

*sigh* and you claim that I make up idiotic versions of history......If you really have no idea what settlers I am talking about you have no right to even think about joining in this discussion.....".there have always been Jewish presence in the land of Israel"....again and I am the idiot?....sigh

[BKKBobby]

I bet my life if a Palestinian State were declared, enabled and supported today its first act would be offensive, building weapons, entangling alliances, inviting weapons depots, amassing forces, preparing for war. These people dont want war. These people want Jews dead. Any argument to the contrary is utter deceit, ignorance, or worse.

What you are describing here is exactly what happened when the first Jewish settlers arrived in 1948.

What kind of idiotic version of make believe "history" is this? In its 3,000 years of history, Jerusalem has been destroyed seventeen times and eighteen times reborn. During these periods of disbursement, there has always remained a constant Jewish presence in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem. I'm not sure what "first" Jewish settlers you are referring to.

The Palestinians refused an offer from the UN to form their own country in 1948 and attacked Israel for accepting. The Palestinians started the violence in the first place, turned down the offer for an independent nation, went to war instead and LOST over and over again..

Presence is a broad word.

Presence as in Jews constantly living there. Presense as in maintaining a continuous presence for more than 3,000 years, according to overwhelming literary, archaeological and historical evidence.

But the arabs had the turf for some time now.

Edited March 17, 2015 by BKKBobby