Webworker confusion - complete contradiction!

[Davedub]

Yesterday, Siam Legal said:

I understand that many people work from their home or apartments on their computers without the proper visas or work permit. Please understand that this is illegal as the proper business visa is required as well as a work permit.

see: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/808889-the-legality-of-working-from-the-internet-in-thailand/?utm_source=newsletter-20150319-1423&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

But the immigration office have previously said:

If you are a 'digital nomad' running your own business on the internet, the immigration office says you can do this on a tourist visa.

see: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753621-digital-nomad-online-workers-permission/

Who's advice is correct?

- davedub

[Mario2008]

That wasn't Siam Legal.

Only a judge can tell which one is right. Working without a work permit is simply illegal and the Thai labour law does not provide for working remote over the internet while in Thailand.

I would more say that neither the labour office or immigration is hunting you down, but it is still illegal.

[Davedub]

Apologies - that was Siam Firms Interlaws, not Siam Legal.

However, the quote from Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration last August is very clear, hence my confusion.

Does ThaiVisa have any contact with immigration 'top brass'? If so, it would be great to get some clarification on the comments made last August, as a clear go-ahead from the top could spin off a number of new businesses catering for digital nomads, so attracting more of them (and so more revenue) to the Kingdom. As an ex-nomad myself (I still have an expensive-and-complicated-to-run ltd company here) I would welcome the opportunity create such facilities. I see an opportunity for making Thailand a hugely attractive proposition for those who have the choice as to where they work and spend.

But with the current contradictions, it doesn't feel safe to further any plans just yet!

[Soutpeel]

Apologies - that was Siam Firms Interlaws, not Siam Legal.

However, the quote from Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration last August is very clear, hence my confusion.

Does ThaiVisa have any contact with immigration 'top brass'? If so, it would be great to get some clarification on the comments made last August, as a clear go-ahead from the top could spin off a number of new businesses catering for digital nomads, so attracting more of them (and so more revenue) to the Kingdom. As an ex-nomad myself (I still have an expensive-and-complicated-to-run ltd company here) I would welcome the opportunity create such facilities. I see an opportunity for making Thailand a hugely attractive proposition for those who have the choice as to where they work and spend.

But with the current contradictions, it doesn't feel safe to further any plans just yet!

according to a TV member who was physically at the meeting in CM, the Pol Col comments were reported and taken out out of context by the reporter as he said no such thing. and the answer was given in to response to question about legitimate tourists checking work emails at home while on holiday in Thailand, nothing to do with DM working from Thailand not requiring a WP

[Robert24]

@Davedub: do you have clients in Thailand? Do you generate income in Thailand? If not I wouldn't worry too much. If you have contracts with Thai clients and generate an income here, I would go the proper way and register your business and get a work permit.

[Jeffrey346]

What if you work for a company in the US, UK or any other country. Your work is done online and have no Thai generated income. Do you need a Work Permit?

[Mario2008]

What if you work for a company in the US, UK or any other country. Your work is done online and have no Thai generated income. Do you need a Work Permit?

That is what this topic is all about.

[Chivas]

@Davedub: do you have clients in Thailand? Do you generate income in Thailand? If not I wouldn't worry too much. If you have contracts with Thai clients and generate an income here, I would go the proper way and register your business and get a work permit.

Exactly......

If you are operating Simple Spread accounts trading Indices or Forex its no ones business but your own and not a chance in hell you're going to be "pulled"

It however goes without saying you keep your mouth firmly shut and dont involve yourself in Bar Talk....

[Soutpeel]

What if you work for a company in the US, UK or any other country. Your work is done online and have no Thai generated income. Do you need a Work Permit?

and your physically present in Thailand doing it, under the current interpretation of the rules, yes you do

you said it yourself..your working for foreign company from Thailand

Income has nothing to do with it

[yellowboat]

What if you work for a company in the US, UK or any other country. Your work is done online and have no Thai generated income. Do you need a Work Permit?

That is what this topic is all about.

According to Thai officialdom, any work in Thailand is against the law on a tourist visa. It is one of the things that makes the place less competitive and less innovative. Unlike most surrounding countries, the Thai government wants a cut no matter what. That is why more are fleeing to Cambodia; easy visas, working is not a problem, faster Internet speeds on the whole.

[falang07]

And who cares? it is impossible to prove anyway, and since this income is not subject to Thai income tax I would say anyone trying to get a work permit for this would have be really insane.

[JLCrab]

This is the declaration from the current Thailand Ministry of Foreign Affairs tourist visa application form:

Attention for Tourist and Transit Visa Applicants :

I hereby declare that the purpose of my visit to thailand is for pleasure or transit only and that in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

So if that is not the case, you have made a false statement to a government officer in their official capacity. Up-to-you.

[Ianatlarge]

Sadly, Thailand is becoming less attractive. A few folk I know are moving (not fleeing per se) to Myanmar and Laos, also Cambo or the Phils. Can you work online? Depends on the day of the week, and what mood the local coppers are in. What, a month or two back some guys were busted for teaching English to Chinese people online. Good to see the cops cracking down on hardcore crims.

[lordblackader]

What if you work for a company in the US, UK or any other country. Your work is done online and have no Thai generated income. Do you need a Work Permit?

That is what this topic is all about.

According to Thai officialdom, any work in Thailand is against the law on a tourist visa. It is one of the things that makes the place less competitive and less innovative. Unlike most surrounding countries, the Thai government wants a cut no matter what. That is why more are fleeing to Cambodia; easy visas, working is not a problem, faster Internet speeds on the whole.

ORLY, because they've just doubly made sure you can come here, legally, for business meetings and more...

http://www.reddit.com/r/Thailand/comments/2zjvwg/activities_not_counting_as_work_under_the_work_of/

Reality is that as long as you're not taking a Thai job, or not full on working for a company with an office in Thailand, you're fine.

[EnglishJohn]

The reason behind the law is to make sure people earning money here pay their tax. That is what all governments are interested in. There is also the intent to stop farang taking jobs Thais could do.

If you work for a foreign company with no transactions being done here then they have absolutely nothing to gain by coming after you. It will just cost them money to do it.

At the end of the day everything you do in Thailand has an element of risk due to the corruption and very poorly worded laws which seem to be written so that they can always fine you if they have a will. There are many, many others working here without a permit who are depriving the country of tax dollars and they will be ahead of you in the queue to be investigated.

I haven't yet heard of any case of any digital nomad fitting the description above getting prosecuted. I am open to be corrected on that if anyone has information ...

[Soutpeel]

I haven't yet heard of any case of any digital nomad fitting the description above getting prosecuted. I am open to be corrected on that if anyone has information ...

so it no one has been prosecuted to date, this infers its legal for a DM to work in Thailand without a WP then ?

[deepcell]

You pay tax for your home country and what? Pay here also? lol double taxed

[kinmaew]

Yes it illegal but who cares define "Legal" in Thailand anyway as the elite make up their own rules so if you can safely run your life the way you want to just do it

[Soutpeel]

You pay tax for your home country and what? Pay here also? lol double taxed

if your paying tax in your own country and there is a reciprocal tax agreement in place between your own country and Thailand, then no you don't pay double tax

if your resident in Thailand for more than 180 days per year, you are resident for tax purposes, and if your not paying tax on your earnings anywhere else, even your overseas ones, then yes one could be obligated to pay tax Thailand, its not an issue of there being no laws on the books to do this, but like a lot things here, the laws are on paper but very rarely enforced.

but there could come a day in Thailand that if you want a long term visa/extension you may have to prove your tax affairs both overseas and in Thailand are in order..

[Soutpeel]

Yes it illegal but who cares define "Legal" in Thailand anyway as the elite make up their own rules so if you can safely run your life the way you want to just do it

I personally don't care what some one does , all I know is I am legal, but typically it the ones who "dont care" are the first one to start whinging about corruption, law and order and immigration when some happens to them ..

[louse1953]

What if you work for a company in the US, UK or any other country. Your work is done online and have no Thai generated income. Do you need a Work Permit?

That is what this topic is all about.

According to Thai officialdom, any work in Thailand is against the law on a tourist visa. It is one of the things that makes the place less competitive and less innovative. Unlike most surrounding countries, the Thai government wants a cut no matter what. That is why more are fleeing to Cambodia; easy visas, working is not a problem, faster Internet speeds on the whole.

5555,Cambo'the hub of the digital nomad.

[itsuptome]

Apologies - that was Siam Firms Interlaws, not Siam Legal.

However, the quote from Pol. Col. Rutphong Sanwanangkun, Superintendent of Chiang Mai Immigration last August is very clear, hence my confusion.

Does ThaiVisa have any contact with immigration 'top brass'? If so, it would be great to get some clarification on the comments made last August, as a clear go-ahead from the top could spin off a number of new businesses catering for digital nomads, so attracting more of them (and so more revenue) to the Kingdom. As an ex-nomad myself (I still have an expensive-and-complicated-to-run ltd company here) I would welcome the opportunity create such facilities. I see an opportunity for making Thailand a hugely attractive proposition for those who have the choice as to where they work and spend.

But with the current contradictions, it doesn't feel safe to further any plans just yet!

according to a TV member who was physically at the meeting in CM, the Pol Col comments were reported and taken out out of context by the reporter as he said no such thing. and the answer was given in to response to question about legitimate tourists checking work emails at home while on holiday in Thailand, nothing to do with DM working from Thailand not requiring a WP

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting but this distinction between a holidaymaker and a "digital nomad" seems arbitrary to me and not one that Immigration would be likely to make. "Digital nomad" is basically a buzzword for young, self-employed guys who check their work email and do related stuff online while taking a long holiday.

A person who arrives here on a tourist visa and engages in holiday activities like staying in hotels, going to beaches, participating in nightlife etc. is from Immigration's perspective a tourist. The Col. made the point that if those people do stuff like check work emails, they don't need a work permit.

Most people who call themselves "digital nomads" actually fit this description. The Internet's filled with blogs by these guys who talk about how they show up in a country for a couple months, chill out a lot, and do a bit of work while they're sitting on the beach sipping cocktails or whatever. These people actually brag about how they're avoiding full-time jobs!

I don't see how that's much different from what you think is a "proper tourist." I guess if someone showed up on a tourist visa here, never did anything touristy, and just sat in front of his computer working for eight hours every day, that might be a violation, but I doubt it's common, and it hasn't attracted any attention from Immigration so far. Certainly if the person was here for the purpose of doing business with Thais, that would be a violation, but "digital nomads" generally aren't. The whole point of the lifestyle is that they can go act like tourists and travel around to various foreign countries while doing a minimal amount of work for a non-Thai business.

These people just get to have longer than usual holidays because they're self employed.

The appropriate visa for this is in fact a tourist visa.

Now if they stay for years on end in Thailand on temporary visas, that's another issue entirely. For one thing, they're no longer a "digital nomad" because they're not nomadic. For another, the authorities do in fact discourage these people -- visas get harder to acquire, they get questioned at the border, etc. Thailand just isn't as tough about long stayers as a typical Western country (which makes sense on several levels).

[jspill]

The reason behind the law is to make sure people earning money here pay their tax. That is what all governments are interested in. There is also the intent to stop farang taking jobs Thais could do.

If you work for a foreign company with no transactions being done here then they have absolutely nothing to gain by coming after you. It will just cost them money to do it.

At the end of the day everything you do in Thailand has an element of risk due to the corruption and very poorly worded laws which seem to be written so that they can always fine you if they have a will. There are many, many others working here without a permit who are depriving the country of tax dollars and they will be ahead of you in the queue to be investigated.

I haven't yet heard of any case of any digital nomad fitting the description above getting prosecuted. I am open to be corrected on that if anyone has information ...

Agreed. No prosecutions anywhere in the world.

[gandalf12]

How about if you come to Thailand to recruit people for overseas positions, do you need a work permit for that?

[nzexpat]

The life of a DN must be "exciting "

These people are not able to secure a valid long stay visa, extensions of stay or a WP. Instead they have to "duck and dive" living off Tourist Visas which expressly forbid "working".

As time goes by their options narrow until they remain as "illegals" racking up an overstay.

Not a life I would wish to have.

[jspill]

^ Actually they're just living normal totally relaxed lives. Tourist visas forbid 'employment', check the alien labor act, to anyone with common sense it's pertains work physically present in Thailand, with a Thai employer, paid in Baht etc. Those who aren't taking jobs from Thais have no concerns.

There is a relatively large community of on line workers in Thailand and they're not difficult to find if it was illegal then the co-working spaces would surly attract attention there are at least 3 in BKK and a few in Chiangmai. When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa. I've got no interest in being "under the radar" as far as I can see the only people who have an issue with the legality of on line work are other westerners posting on here and their opinions really don't matter.

Source - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920

Also there's no limit to back to back tourist visas, people have stayed here decades on them, so long stay isn't an issue - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788273-is-there-any-limit-on-back-to-back-tourist-visas/

[Robert24]

@gandalf12: same here as in other countries. if you come on a business trip to Thailand to interview/recruit people whether for positions abroad or in Thailand, you don't need a work permit. However if you stay in Thailand and you recruit people, I.e. headhunter, run a recruitment agency type thing, of course you need a work permit.

[Soutpeel]

^ Actually they're just living normal totally relaxed lives. Tourist visas forbid 'employment', check the alien labor act, to anyone with common sense it's pertains work physically present in Thailand, with a Thai employer, paid in Baht etc. Those who aren't taking jobs from Thais have no concerns.

There is a relatively large community of on line workers in Thailand and they're not difficult to find if it was illegal then the co-working spaces would surly attract attention there are at least 3 in BKK and a few in Chiangmai. When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa. I've got no interest in being "under the radar" as far as I can see the only people who have an issue with the legality of on line work are other westerners posting on here and their opinions really don't matter.

Source - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/749038-with-a-thai-elite-visa-can-a-person-work-legally-as-a-digital-nomad/page-7#entry8314920

Also there's no limit to back to back tourist visas, people have stayed here decades on them, so long stay isn't an issue - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/788273-is-there-any-limit-on-back-to-back-tourist-visas/

where does it say that Jspill ?

Attention for Tourist and Transit Visa Applicants :

I hereby declare that the purpose of my visit to thailand is for pleasure or transit only and that in no case shall I engage myself in any profession or occupation while in the country.

[steve187]

I would think that if there is no correct visa, to allow your stay in Thailand for the things you do while there, Then you are there illegally.

If you have to sail close to the wind with visa exempt, and tourist visa's back to back, changing places of issue as a work around, and you have to work for your 'living' money, then you are here illegally. if you are doing the same but living off investments, which you check, by any means that is best, then you are legal.

People know if they are illegal, they just try to justify their illegality by claiming they are legal because their money 'earned ' in Thailand goes into a overseas bank accounts.

I liked the post above how can you be a 'nomad if you live in one place'.

People abuse Thailand's visas because they are easy to get, try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant.

I always post that people that abuse the visa system make it harder for the legal people, as the clamp downs follow due to the amount of misuse, which is well publized and talked about on various forums, daily. ie Ed visa

[NancyL]

Here we go again! I was present at the meeting cited in the article that is quoted as some sort of Biblical text in this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/753621-digital-nomad-online-workers-permission/

First of all, it wasn't the head of CM Immigration, Pol. Col. Rutjapong who made the comment quoted, but a member of his staff. Col. Rutjapong wasn't even on the stage at the time. Also, the comment is taken out of context -- it wasn't a part of the prepared presentation, but rather in response to a question from the audience at the end about whether a visitor on a tourist visa could check email and conduct business from his overseas company while visiting Chiang Mai. It was really just a throw-away line that somehow became the major centerpiece of the entire 2 hour event when you read the article.

It's a very bad piece of reporting.