Webworker confusion - complete contradiction!

[ubonjoe]

Several posts and replies to them have been removed for assorted reasons. If your post has disappeared or does after this notice it means you have stepped over the line.

[gandalf12]

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@gandalf12: same here as in other countries. if you come on a business trip to Thailand to interview/recruit people whether for positions abroad or in Thailand, you don't need a work permit. However if you stay in Thailand and you recruit people, I.e. headhunter, run a recruitment agency type thing, of course you need a work permit.

I totally agree but sometimes things can be mis-construed and that is when the problems arise. I have lived in Thailand for 30 years and never overstayed. A company I worked for wanted me to work from home while they got my new visa to return to Russia. I told them sure but get me a work permit.

I have a Thai wife and daughters here, I have to much at stake to risk doing anything illegal.

My present company is looking at hiring people from Thailand so I thought I would aske the question.

Thanks for confirming what I thought was the case

[nzexpat]

"9. Foreigners entering Thailand are not permitted to work, regardless of their types of visa, unless they are granted a work permit. Those who intend to work in Thailand must hold the correct type of visa to be eligible to apply for a work permit. Information on Work Permit applications could be obtained from the website of the Office of Foreign Workers Administration, Department of Employment, Ministry of Labour at www.doe.go.th/workpermit/index.html"

Source

Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Kingdom of Thailand

http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/services/4908/15405-General-information.html

[jspill]

^ Ok so define 'in Thailand'?

I think that means work of a physical nature, since you're 'entering Thailand' to do it, that implies it's not referring to online work. I think that, you think something else. Hence the debate.

Here's a quote from the list of persona non grata

" 2. Those who have no appropriate means of earning a living once they have entered the Kingdom.

3. Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training, or who violate the Alien Employment Act. "

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

[hml367]

^ Ok so define 'in Thailand'?

I think that means work of a physical nature, since you're 'entering Thailand' to do it, that implies it's not referring to online work. I think that, you think something else. Hence the debate.

Here's a quote from the list of persona non grata

" 2. Those who have no appropriate means of earning a living once they have entered the Kingdom.

3. Those who, having entered the Kingdom to take up employment as laborers or practice other forms of manual work that require no special skill or training, or who violate the Alien Employment Act. "

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/392-0.html

The definition of "work" from the Unofficial translation of the WORKING OF ALIEN ACT, B.E. 2551 (2008)

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using

knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits;

[nzexpat]

jspill

Anyone who needs 'in Thailand' explaining clearly should not be 'In Thailand'!

[jspill]

^ No response to my counterquote other than a wisecrack?

"work" means engaging in work

Thanks, I was aware of that definition, I think we can all agree it's not crystal clear when you use a word X in the definition of word X.

[NanLaew]

^ No response to my counterquote other than a wisecrack?

"work" means engaging in work

Thanks, I was aware of that definition, I think we can all agree it's not crystal clear when you use a word X in the definition of word X.

In all the statements about this by both Immigration Police and the Labour Department, the Thai word for "work" has been translated into English as 'exerting effort' and has been thus since I started laying pipe here about 20-odd year back.

So, try this.

"Work" means exerting effort.

There is no way a DM (or anyone else for that matter) can claim that he doesn't exert any effort when 'working' here.

Does this make it easier to comprehend?

[jspill]

Of course that would make it easier to comprehend. That's just what you've been told though, dozens of posters on have been told 'no problem for you' by officials, I linked one such example earlier.

All just hearsay and one person's word against another's until a judge actually prosecutes someone, which likely wouldn't happen unless Thailand publicly says e.g. 'you can't run a monetised Youtube channel about kittens from your Bangkok condo for over 6 months in a year or face arrest'. Rather than an arrest, that person would just be denied a tourist visa. Or if they could show they have saving to cover their stay, so weren't reliant on their online income to live, maybe they'd still be allowed one. All very complicated.

[Soutpeel]

Of course that would make it easier to comprehend. That's just what you've been told though, dozens of posters on have been told 'no problem for you' by officials, I linked one such example earlier.

All just hearsay and one person's word against another's until a judge actually prosecutes someone, which likely wouldn't happen unless Thailand publicly says e.g. 'you can't run a monetised Youtube channel about kittens from your Bangkok condo for over 6 months in a year or face arrest'. Rather than an arrest, that person would just be denied a tourist visa. Or if they could show they have saving to cover their stay, so weren't reliant on their online income to live, maybe they'd still be allowed one. All very complicated.

They can be told anything, it means nothing until the day one of them produces a document from the DOL/Immigration which states passport holder XYZ is operating an on line business from Thailand and in this instance a WP is NOT required

A geezer the pub told me so it has to be true...

further the link you did post to, believe it referred to this ?

When I got my last visa I was asked how I supported myself I told them I work on line and showed them statements confirming I was paid into my UK account, they were happy with this and gave me a visa.

Visa issued by consulate / embassy, issued out side of Thailand ?...they are not interested in or really have any knowledge of WP issuance or requirements...for the most part they don't care as long as they get the cash out of you

Embassies/Consulates do not have the mandate to assess the requirement for or issue work permits..its the DOL in Thailand which has this mandate..so your link is erroneous to say the least and proves absolutely zip..

[jspill]

The burden of proof isn't on the digital nomad, it's on the country with vague laws that is about to arrest a tourist with a monetised Youtube account about kittens... which would be an international incident.

Your posts have no more or less merit than mine.

[Soutpeel]

The burden of proof isn't on the digital nomad, it's on the country with vague laws that is about to arrest a tourist with a monetised Youtube account about kittens... which would be an international incident.

Your posts have no more or less merit than mine.

How melodramatic dear boy..."an international incident" Yes maybe the nationals country concerned will impose economic sactions on Thailand as well....

say what Jspill.?..The burden of proof isn't on the digital nomad...

You may want to keep that line in your pocket when the nice immigration man asks you to prove your not working in Thailand...

[jspill]

You may want to keep that line in your pocket when the nice immigration man asks you to prove your not working in Thailand...

That just entails showing a bit of cash or a bank book with some transfers originating from offshore. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/715011-red-stamp-in-vientiane-advice-needed/

[rwdrwdrwd]

^ No response to my counterquote other than a wisecrack?

"work" means engaging in work

Thanks, I was aware of that definition, I think we can all agree it's not crystal clear when you use a word X in the definition of word X.

In all the statements about this by both Immigration Police and the Labour Department, the Thai word for "work" has been translated into English as 'exerting effort' and has been thus since I started laying pipe here about 20-odd year back.

So, try this.

"Work" means exerting effort.

There is no way a DM (or anyone else for that matter) can claim that he doesn't exert any effort when 'working' here.

Does this make it easier to comprehend?

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

[TheSpade]

The only people that seem to care about "digital nomads" are half a dozen TVF members who ironically spend most of their lives online bitching about digi nomads.

[1quote name=nzexpat" post="9211118" timestamp="1426868388]

The life of a DN must be "exciting "

These people are not able to secure a valid long stay visa, extensions of stay or a WP. Instead they have to "duck aynd dive" living off Tourist Visas which expressly forbid "working".

As time goes by their options narrow until they remain as "illegals" racking up an overstay.

Not a life I would wish to have.

I know about a dozen people who run online businesses of some sort who are currently in Thailand. Everything from translators, to bloggers, to ecommerce site owners, to freelance writers and designers and beyond.

Strangely no grind house operators or gay film stars as some on here seem to think everyone earning money online does.

That describes none of them. No ducking and diving, easy to get visas, dont want or need a WP, happy enough to leave if need be with the cash to do it (no reason at all to overstay), not tied here long term and can leave tomorrow if they have to.

The tourist visa forbids "employment". what the authorities class as employment is anyone guess. As others have said it woyould likely depend on the judge on the day as rules arent clear.

If Thailand had any sense they'd follow Start Up Santiago (Chile) model and invite online start ups from round the world with incentives like tax breaks, funding, access to investors etc. Its added millions to Chiles economy.

[rwdrwdrwd]

People abuse Thailand's visas because they are easy to get, try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant.

I know shedloads of Americans in Europe working remotely, and vice versa. I have myself visited the US many times on an ESTA and stated that I am a software engineer and that I am in the country for business and pleasure, with all my kit in tow. Never had a single problem.

[nzexpat]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

^ No response to my counterquote other than a wisecrack?

"work" means engaging in work

Thanks, I was aware of that definition, I think we can all agree it's not crystal clear when you use a word X in the definition of word X.

In all the statements about this by both Immigration Police and the Labour Department, the Thai word for "work" has been translated into English as 'exerting effort' and has been thus since I started laying pipe here about 20-odd year back.

So, try this.

"Work" means exerting effort.

There is no way a DM (or anyone else for that matter) can claim that he doesn't exert any effort when 'working' here.

Does this make it easier to comprehend?

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

But there are "precedents" for those who overstay, those who abuse "visa exempt entries" and those who abuse "ED" visas !

[rwdrwdrwd]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

But there are "precedents" for those who overstay, those who abuse "visa exempt entries" and those who abuse "ED" visas !

None of which are in any way related to whether or not earning money online requires a work permit.

[Soutpeel]

^ No response to my counterquote other than a wisecrack?

"work" means engaging in work

Thanks, I was aware of that definition, I think we can all agree it's not crystal clear when you use a word X in the definition of word X.

In all the statements about this by both Immigration Police and the Labour Department, the Thai word for "work" has been translated into English as 'exerting effort' and has been thus since I started laying pipe here about 20-odd year back.

So, try this.

"Work" means exerting effort.

There is no way a DM (or anyone else for that matter) can claim that he doesn't exert any effort when 'working' here.

Does this make it easier to comprehend?

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

As you should know Thai law does not operate on the basis of precedence, but even if it did, the absence of precedence does not infer a WP is not required and these people can operate legally without one

[rwdrwdrwd]

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

As you should know Thai law does not operate on the basis of precedence, but even if it did, the absence of precedence does not infer a WP is not required and these people can operate legally without one

I said 'guidance' not 'confirrmation' and you are correct. It also does not infer that earning ad revenue from a blog requires a work permit, but managing an investment portfolio or indeed 'breathing' does not.

The only true answer that can ever be given to this question is 'I do not know, I am not a judge'. The contradictory (it's a grey area) advice (the law doesn't cover internet work) given (it's illegal) in the 'Ask a lawyer' section only serves to highlght this.

[Soutpeel]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

But there are "precedents" for those who overstay, those who abuse "visa exempt entries" and those who abuse "ED" visas !

None of which are in any way related to whether or not earning money online requires a work permit.

the fact is, the debates around WP's for most of there individuals with become moot as the crackdowns on the visa's continues,

large number of these types are operating under Ed Visa's, multiple tourist visa's, visa waivers, and as time goes one, people working illegally whether as DM's or other ways will become less and less anyway as they are not being allowed to stay long term anyway

[rwdrwdrwd]

Unless people just get an Elite visa, or this happens - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/791589-ministry-of-foreign-affairs-proposes-multiple-visa-1-year-3000-thb-sunbelt-asia/

Mixed signals as ever.

[LivinLOS]

The burden of proof isn't on the digital nomad, it's on the country with vague laws that is about to arrest a tourist with a monetised Youtube account about kittens... which would be an international incident.

Your posts have no more or less merit than mine.

http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1532

Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work?

I have a YouTube channel showing a video diary of my travels around Thailand – promoting the country and activities here.

I am trying to understand what laws I need to be aware of in relation to my current and past activities. Is uploading videos to YouTube considered work? Does it matter if I have YouTube ads turned on or off?

I have many other videos on my channel, which I made 100 per cent outside Thailand – before my arrival. If I have ads turned on and am being paid for these past activities while I am in the Kingdom, is this considered work?

Concerned vlogger, Thailand. Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:36:54 AM

“No, it isn’t, as long as the uploading is for fun or to share on social media networks publicly for free.

However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work.

Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom.

However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand.” Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:36:54 AM Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO). - See more at: http://legacy.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1532#sthash.C28GcGVC.dpuf

Crystal clear and perfectly logical..

[LivinLOS]

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

While maybe you can disagree with them.. I think the above post clearly shows how they interpret it.

If you do the work, blog or post to an non monetized site.. Your doing it for fun.

If you do the work, blog or post to a monetized site.. Your breaking the law.

If you arrive and only receive money from the site already monetized, without commenting, posting, or editing.. Your just living on the income..

Seems logical and clear.. Those are the rules.

Of course when did the real rules effect much here ??

[jspill]

Only a judge can define it in court, hearsay from one lawyer doesn't mean much. Plus it'd never go to court.

How will they verify if you monetized prior to coming or not - they can't. So no risk.

Edit: read to your last sentence, that one I agree with.

[Soutpeel]

hearsay from one lawyer doesn't mean much. Plus it'd never go to court.

Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office..Is not one lawyer, Yaowapa Pibulpol is the head of the DOL in Phuket, cant you read ?

this is the department who would be prosecuting you in Phuket, so don't be so sure it wouldn't get to court, but one wonders would the court case be before or after the international incident the arrest would cause Jspill ?

[NanLaew]

^ No response to my counterquote other than a wisecrack?

"work" means engaging in work

Thanks, I was aware of that definition, I think we can all agree it's not crystal clear when you use a word X in the definition of word X.

In all the statements about this by both Immigration Police and the Labour Department, the Thai word for "work" has been translated into English as 'exerting effort' and has been thus since I started laying pipe here about 20-odd year back.

So, try this.

"Work" means exerting effort.

There is no way a DM (or anyone else for that matter) can claim that he doesn't exert any effort when 'working' here.

Does this make it easier to comprehend?

Anybody who is alive in Thailand is exerting effort. By this definition, breathing is work, as is having a poo.

Obviously, in practice, somebody that breathes is not considered to require a work permit to do so. And this is why the law is extremely unclear and is entirely open to interpretation. The only guidance is precedent, and there are no precedents for people that earn money online, do not deal with Thai entities, and do not receive payment in Thailand.

I was wondering how long before some bright spark would start quoting completely out of context about breathing and shitting...

Try and stay ON topic.

[NanLaew]

People abuse Thailand's visas because they are easy to get, try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant.

I know shedloads of Americans in Europe working remotely, and vice versa. I have myself visited the US many times on an ESTA and stated that I am a software engineer and that I am in the country for business and pleasure, with all my kit in tow. Never had a single problem.

And this is where in a nail-biting, black-and-white, Perry Mason courtroom drama, our legal guru would leap to his feet and shout, "Irrelevant, your Honor!"

(christ on a bike I am gettin' old...)

[NanLaew]

[... related threads deleted due to being buggered up by following poster...]

It is absolutely on topic and in context. The obvious point is that 'exerting energy' is not necessarily 'work', and that the legal definition is as much use as a chocolate teapot. So why bother even bringing it up? If 'work' means 'exerting energy' It LITERALLY covers breathing, I am not overdramatising.

You brought it up and intimated that because people earning money online were exerting energy, they are working. Everybody alive in Thailand is exerting energy, so either everybody is working, or 'exerting energy' as a definition is a vast oversimplification. In fact the law also says 'or using knowledge, whether for pay or benefits or not' not that this adds any clarity.

Neither is my retort to another poster who claimed "try being a DN, in the west you would not get the visa in the first instant." irrelevant. I have in the past, thousands (at least) are right now, I have never seen a single prosecution for this internationally, and my reply is wholly relevant to the assertion the poster made.

The quote from the Phuket official is interesting- first time I have seen any granular assessment - of course they are not a judge (though they can send you to one), and it's a single province. Will be interesting to see if anyone ends up in court.

Painting a picture is exerting energy.

Painting a fence is exerting energy.

Driving a car is exerting energy.

Driving a taxi is exerting energy.

When taken out of context (that you appear apt to do), all of the above can be construed as work or like breathing and shitting... if we use your rather broad classification.

However, if you are painting a picture because it is your hobby then who cares? What is totally different is painting a fence, either for financial gain or because it is your fence as you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

If you drive your wife to the airport, that's exerting effort but it isn't work at all. Now, if you pick up your mates at the airport and charge them a tenner each, then you are WORKING and/or DEPRIVING A THAI LOCAL OF WORK.

Still with me? Good.

The fact that European countries don't give a toss that you have patched some code in your hotel room, poolside at your mate's house or waiting in the lounge for your flight out IS irrelevant because.... now don't miss this important bit, IT IS NOT THAILAND.

Thailand is the land that has finessed the 'path of least resistance'. If someone at the Labour Office wanted to get specific with exactly what kinds of work are prohibited, they could have pages and pages of occupations versus the paltry 3 score and 10 or so that have been on the statutes for decades. It's an easy-out and it's their country so why should we get all uppity when they refuse to be drawn into anything that resembles logic, reason and sense?

This IS Thailand at it's very, very best.

[nzexpat]

Nan

I fear you are being sucked in by a troll.

As we both know sensible interpretation of the "rules" is the key !

I helped my neighbor ( a ranked policeman) fix his roof and am still awaiting the consequences of "working" !