Thailand, Morality, ethics and me

[godden]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

When they roll out the go back to your own country, you know the OP lost the argument

[morrobay]

From 2nd line OP :"Just what it is that makes on the one hand Thai people the nicest people" ...

You mean the nicest people money can buy.

[nontabury]

Quit generalizing because the corruption isn't endemic...lots of Thai people aren't corrupt and don't condone corruption.

The last survey that was carried out,gave the result that approxamately 80% of the Thais are completely happy with corruption.

[shirtless]

Corruption is rampant in the west its just done by campaign donors who reap the benefits from bought politicians , after there career in public office said politicians received highly paid jobs doing nothing ie Macquarie Bank and Bob Carr NSW premiere .

[nontabury]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

The guy was Not Thai bashing, he was just asking a reasonable question, and for this you tell him to go back to his own country. Maybe you should remove your rose tinted glasses, or is it that your still in the honeymoon period.

[micmichd]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

[micmichd]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

[Muzarella]

In the West our societies are run by criminal banking cartels & their Central banks, they buy governments and are above the law. Conveniently they also own indirectly the media so you certainly never hear about it, most of the corruption is at the very top. Most people are completely oblivious to the big picture as they indulge in the provided bread & circuses.

In Thailand the corruption is more obvious as top to bottom scramble for their share of the pie.

In Thailand politicians pay voters directly for votes, in the West the wealthy finance advertising campaigns for their stooges for the same outcome. At least here they know they've been bought, in the West the welfare handouts are the same thing but people don't even know they've been bought.

In Thailand the wealthy are above the law, the West is the same but the population seems largely unaware as the odd nobody is thrown to the sharks.

Thailand is just human nature on display in its raw form without the media manipulation pretending it is otherwise. Average people just adapt to the rules of the system in play.

Thank you for saying what I had in my mind reading this topic.

In most "3rd world" countries corruption is a way of getting an extra income for people will very low wages, and that practice becomes normal even for people with high incomes, and Government officials. In other western countries, where wages are better, average people avoid corruption practices to keep its jobs and reputation...but...corruption is even worst.

In "rich" countries corruption happens in very high levels affecting, not just some individuals, but all the population and the countries economy. Unfortunately most of the population in those countries lives in denial, just accepting the consequences, most even believing that their countries are free of corruption.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Muzarella

[houlicha]

God, grant me the ability to accept the things I cannot change.

[willyumiii]

To find the answer to your question, you need to realize that morals and ethics vary from culture to culture.

It is not that their morals and ethics are bankrupt, they are not.

Their morals and ethics are just different from where I ,and probably you come from.

It's just a different value system.

[jacky54]

Thai morals- don't get caught, Thai ethics- if you do lie or bribe your way out

[micmichd]

Farang ethics: Only money will buy you justice

(in German: "ohne Schuss kein Jus")

[micmichd]

I prefer bribe to fees.

With bribe you get something for your money, with fees you cannot be so sure.

[Berkshire]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

The guy was Not Thai bashing, he was just asking a reasonable question, and for this you tell him to go back to his own country. Maybe you should remove your rose tinted glasses, or is it that your still in the honeymoon period.

Geez, open your eyes a bit. The OP is Thai bashing, clearly. And the question wasn't reasonable if based on a false premise. Are you being deliberately obtuse?

[samuibeachcomber]

OP, first you say "This is not a Thai bashing thread," then you go on to say "Thailand is morally and ethically bankrupt from the top to the bottom." That's quite a cop-out. At least be honest about it.

You're demonstrating exactly what Rancid explained. In the west, corruption occurs but it's much more sophisticated so the sheep can sleep at nights. It's about appearances while in Thailand, it's more out in the open. You're bashing Thailand, but hiding behind this "desire to understand" nonsense. How about display a bit of intellectual honesty?

yes "rancid" was so right in his explanation of western corruption.Here its more out in the open for everyone to see.The whole world is corrupt but it's mainly from the top(those in power).

[Docno]

It's due to a historical 'accident' of sorts. It goes back to the time in the first millennium AD when the Church dominated Europe. The Church, having inherited much of its structure from the Roman Empire, was preoccupied with legality and contract law, particularly as concerns property rights. After all, it had become an important property owner in its own right and it needed a clear legal framework to protect its property ... 'governments' went along with this because, in a sense, the Church was the State. By the time secular leaders began to free themselves from the dominance of the Church in the middle ages, the idea of 'a system of laws' was firmly entrenched and it has stayed that way ever since. Of course, there have been legal codes elsewhere and at other times, but expanse and long-lasting dominance of the Church in Europe that made it part of European culture. That's why it's hard for some us to get our heads around how other societies might manage to do things differently.

Interestingly, I once read that Lee Kwan Yew (I think!) attributed the success of Singapore and Hong Kong to the combination of British regard for the 'rule of law' and the Chinese work ethic. He saw the British as not having the same 'fire' to make money as the Chinese, but saw the Chinese as culturally too prone to 'going around the rules'. It's one explanation, at least....

[gandalf12]

Like everywhere it depends on the upbringing of the individual. I have always found the Thai's to be nice people but of course there are exceptions as everywhere.

Can you honestly say that people in your own country are any better? I would doubt it and I dont mean that as a slight against your country. If people feel they can get away with something that they want then they will. Maybe to us it is obvious what they are doing but to others it may not be.

As was said by a rather famous person "let those without sin cast the first stone"

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

Every country in the world has its own corruption, in some its the police force in others the banksters and in others the army. In Thailand it is multilayered and it will take generations to cleanup. The only problem is that if you have an honest politician that tries to clean up corruption he would be eliminated asap by either the elites/army or the mafia. Sometimes a building gets so rotten that you can't fix it, its just better to knock it down and start from scratch.

[micmichd]

I have never seen so much lack of competence in services like in Germany.

Lying might be socially acceptable when truth (honesty) would hurt too much.

You can kill someone with telling the truth.

[roquefort]

Interestingly, I once read that Lee Kwan Yew (I think!) attributed the success of Singapore and Hong Kong to the combination of British regard for the 'rule of law' and the Chinese work ethic. He saw the British as not having the same 'fire' to make money as the Chinese, but saw the Chinese as culturally too prone to 'going around the rules'. It's one explanation, at least..

At last......an informed, intelligent group of posters on TV! What a change from the usual Thai bashing dross that passes for debate on most of this BB.

Yes, the fact that Thailand has never been colonised certainly has an influence on the morals and ethics of the people, although the rule of law that was put in place by the British and others was to facilitate their plundering of the colonies rather than protect the rights of the local people.

There is a fine line as someone has suggested between paying a fair price for a service and corruption, but it is the institutionalised low level corruption (tea money to police and civil servants) that grates with our western culture as this just doesn't happen in the west. But these people are paid fair salaries in the west which does not seem to be the case here, can we really blame them for trying to make up for that with a little entrepreneurship?

Having lived here for 15 years I see little difference in corruption at the highest level between Thailand and the west - back home we condemn it without doing anything to stamp it out. How many bankers and politicians in Europe have gone to prison since 2008? (Berlusconi has just been acquitted.......again).

[pendingo]

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In the West our societies are run by criminal banking cartels & their Central banks, they buy governments and are above the law. Conveniently they also own indirectly the media so you certainly never hear about it, most of the corruption is at the very top. Most people are completely oblivious to the big picture as they indulge in the provided bread & circuses.

In Thailand the corruption is more obvious as top to bottom scramble for their share of the pie.

In Thailand politicians pay voters directly for votes, in the West the wealthy finance advertising campaigns for their stooges for the same outcome. At least here they know they've been bought, in the West the welfare handouts are the same thing but people don't even know they've been bought.

In Thailand the wealthy are above the law, the West is the same but the population seems largely unaware as the odd nobody is thrown to the sharks.

Thailand is just human nature on display in its raw form without the media manipulation pretending it is otherwise. Average people just adapt to the rules of the system in play.

Thank you Rancid, one of the the most definitive comments so far. Ignorance is bliss as the old saying goes. In the West some people still don't realise how corrupt their governments are and when election time comes will still vote for the same old parties. It's only when they wake up to the BS they are fed in daily doses that the revolution will come.

In Thailand it's a whole different can of worms but once you have worked out how the system works you are who or what you can pay for.

So I have little criticism of how things are done in Thailand when my own country has such a huge level of corruption. It is what it is.

[CharlieH]

Off topic removed

[Srikcir]

"as a rule Thailand is morally and ethically bankrupt from the top to the bottom"

I offer below as a start to your question a very thought provoking analysis from Reuters written in 2008 that used Singapore as a baseline for analyzing corruption in S.E. Asia.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/12/17/us-asia-corruption-rankings-idUSSP39045120081217

There are also various corruption indices can also help with comparisons between nations. Here is one source for multiple analyses:

http://www.transparency.org/country

What is apparent in all the dissertations of national corruption is that no single country can claim to be completely free of corruption.

What may not seem obvious to some OP's is the question of corruption in daily society in Thailand is very complex but not unique to Thailand. The underlying factors regardless of the nation may be related to (not in any particular order) the level of education, moral compass, level of income, and degree of personal freedom. The last factor might directly relate to governance that establishes the rule of law.

The Prayut regime seems to take a more broad perspective than prevoious administrations to address the problems of corruption in Thai society. But its solutions thus far lack cohesiveness, academic validity, and engagement of Thai society. Furthermore, the illegal existence of a military-led government run by the personal dictates of Prayut does not serve as a good role model for affecting the issue of corruption in Thai society. There can be no honor among thieves.

[sead]

For me its like home. And that home is Serbia. If you need things to speedup you pay. It will be done anyways but you set the pace lol.

Here money talks bullshit walks.

Use it to your advantage...

[pendingo]

Every country in the world has its own corruption, in some its the police force in others the banksters and in others the army. In Thailand it is multilayered and it will take generations to cleanup. The only problem is that if you have an honest politician that tries to clean up corruption he would be eliminated asap by either the elites/army or the mafia. Sometimes a building gets so rotten that you can't fix it, its just better to knock it down and start from scratch.

It happens in UK and US in particular. The good politicians who make an effort to stand up against corruption may be eliminated one way or another but with more subtlety either by some kind of defamation eg at best any dirt that can be dug up against them or at worst some kind of fatal accident or medical condition. Particularly to the ones who have come close to some wrongdoing which could upset the apple cart if it is exposed.

Also look what happens to whistle-blowers who dare to stick their heads above the parapet after exposing what has been happening in their particular organisation.

Never ceases to amaze me how some people don't get it.

Corruption has been going on for thousands of years in "civilised" human society and is inbred in all of us no matter what part of the globe we live in.

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

Who on here has not lied or been economic with the truth for whatever reason?

[Berkshire]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

I'll bet the OP is trying to claim that he's as pure as the driven snow. It's called lying to oneself.

[sir charles IV]

Well u are thai bashing despite an attempt to soften the blow. And you are generalizing hence it is difficult to gauge in a meaningful discussion. Nice try lol

[MW72]

In the West our societies are run by criminal banking cartels & their Central banks, they buy governments and are above the law. Conveniently they also own indirectly the media so you certainly never hear about it, most of the corruption is at the very top. Most people are completely oblivious to the big picture as they indulge in the provided bread & circuses.

In Thailand the corruption is more obvious as top to bottom scramble for their share of the pie.

In Thailand politicians pay voters directly for votes, in the West the wealthy finance advertising campaigns for their stooges for the same outcome. At least here they know they've been bought, in the West the welfare handouts are the same thing but people don't even know they've been bought.

In Thailand the wealthy are above the law, the West is the same but the population seems largely unaware as the odd nobody is thrown to the sharks.

Thailand is just human nature on display in its raw form without the media manipulation pretending it is otherwise. Average people just adapt to the rules of the system in play.

This is exactly the point. I explain to my Thai friends that the US, for example, probably has more corruption than Thailand, but it's not at the street level, so to speak. The cop who stops you for speeding is probably not looking for a bribe and it would be very dangerous to offer him one. Nevertheless, the political system is driven by corruption on a vast scale. Here's just one example. Before Dick Cheney ran for Vice President with Bush in 2000, he was the president of Halliburton, a major supplier of oilfield services to the oil industry. During his tenure running Halliburton the company bought another company, a rival in the same oilfield services business called "Dresser Industries." The combined companies would become the largest provider of services to the oil industry in the world. After acquiring Dresser Cheney plundered the pension plan of a Dresser unit called Dresser-Rand resulting in loss of pension benefits to workers originally covered under the plan amounting to $25 million. When Cheney left his job at Halliburton to become VP of the US the Halliburton board in gratitude voted to award him an early retirement pension, for which he had not qualified, that was worth $37 million.

But that's just the warmup to the corruption story. In an economy the size of the US, sums like $37 million are not so important even if the corrupt acts are outrageous. As Vice President Cheney pushed for and got the illegal war in Iraq based on fraudulent claims about Iraq's military capabilities and intentions. During the ten years beginning in 2003, the single company that received the most US government contracts in Iraq was Kellog, Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton until it was sold off in 2007. The total value of the contracts was $39 billion, some of which were awarded without competitive bidding.

Total cost estimates of the Iraq war range from $1 Trillion to $3 Trillion. The estimated value of the annual oil production in Iraq before Cheney's war began was $15 billion per year.

That's how corruption works in the US. The average voter can't comprehend that ruinous wars that end in military failure come about to enable war-profiteering of companies and their stooges.

Don't forget the massive corruption with foreign aid.

Poor countries are given huge loans they cannot afford for infrastructure the poor do not need. The elite of the country take their cut, the western companies carry out the work at huge profit, the rich landowners who own the land the development is built on get their cut and the banks get their profits in the interest on the loan.

What do the poor get? They pay for the loan through their taxes. They get a new road that they can't use as the can't afford a car. They get electricity but the can't afford electrical appliances or the electricity bill. These people can barely afford food or health care and we pretend these aid project are for their benifit.

Here is the hypocricy. I read an article the other day (I can't remember where off the top of my head) about Chinese companies winning contracts in the US. There is uproar because the Chinese will use Chinese workers on the contracts and not Americans. How hypocritical is that? I am not singling out the US. It would be the same if this happened in Britain or France etc.

[CapeCobra]

I believe in the future.

[NickJ]

It's a dog eat dog society from the grass roots up.....it'just that before you either get eaten or do in fact go local and eat someone yourself....you can have a hwll od a fun time here.