UK expats liable for cost of NHS treatment

[trevoromgh]

If like me you have been following the progress of the UK Immigration Bill 2013-2014 in the belief that it would herald the arrival of new regulations which would provide exemption from NHS charges for ex-pats who have paid NI contributions for most of their lives, I'm afraid it looks like we have all been deceived.

Despite the findings of a Department of Health public consultation that the UK public thought it would be fair to exempt expats from NHS charges if they have paid between 5-10 years contributions the Conservative party have instead decided to ignore public opinion and instead with the new regulations due out next month April 2015 will expect UK expats to pay for all NHS charges if they visit the UK and fall ill.

Not only that, UK state pensioners (who were previously exempted) will now be expected to pay as well and if that wasn't bad enough the charge will be at a rate of 150% ! These charges are actually more than those for illegal immigrants into the country.

For full information on the scope of the new charges here is a link to the relevant government regulations .pdf document

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F403251%2Fequality-analysis-charges-ovs-visitors.pdf&ei=dV4ZVcM5w4_sBviLgbAB&usg=AFQjCNHiLkWVCfleF-RqL1iWn4pejtA-Qw&sig2=DZ9XH7vRtNoszHVMqwoeHA

So now if you return to visit your place of birth you will need to take out travel insurance to protect yourselves, what a fiasco.

Ironically I received an email recently from the Conservative party asking me if I knew any expats and if so to remind them to ensure they use their postal vote as the election race is going to be too close to call. Well given the above U-turn in policy to the detrement of UK expats I would certainly ask all of you voting to do so for anyone except the Tories.

Edited March 30, 2015 by trevoromgh

[JOC]

>>Not only that, UK state pensioners (who were previously exempted) will now be expected to pay as well and if that wasn't bad enough the charge will be at a rate of 150% ! These charges are actually more than those for illegal immigrants into the country.<<

Any charge, at whatever percentage, would be more than the illegals are paying.

To my knowledge, they are all sponsored by British taxpayer money!!

Strange old world, where the interest of Mohammed comes before the interest of John!!

[ukrules]

The governments don't really care what you think, they do what they want to do.

It doesn't matter which party is in power, they simply don't care what 'the people' think.

There have been lots of studies which various governments have funded with plenty of money over the years only to ignore them and stick with their own policy on the issue.

[thonglorjimmy]

This little gem could well prove to be the tipping point for any expatriate pensioners who are already considering returning to their homeland.

Many have "paid their stamp" for in excess of forty years, many are still UK taxpayers, some paying up to 40%, those in receipt of State Pensions have their pensions frozen, the list goes on, not to mention the fact that as they get older health insurance is expensive here and even travel insurance can be.

I suspect that some of us oldies will be looking at the sums again, I know I will. I'm not saying that I will return to the UK, but if I did, I'm covered for NHS from day one, my pension will be uplifted to the current figure, and increase yearly, I'll even get a free bus pass.

I accept there are a lot of things to factor in, but I think HMG may not save as much as they think if expats start returning "home".

[theoldgit]

I think you're right, many expat pensioners will need to re-visit the numbers again, now doubt the Whitehall number crunchers have done a similar exercise, certainly the fact there is little support from the electorate and actually other benefit cuts are pretty widely supported.

I suspect at the end of the day most people will stay here, but certainly our lifelines are being eroded away.

[Ricardo]

>>Not only that, UK state pensioners (who were previously exempted) will now be expected to pay as well and if that wasn't bad enough the charge will be at a rate of 150% ! These charges are actually more than those for illegal immigrants into the country.<<

Any charge, at whatever percentage, would be more than the illegals are paying.

To my knowledge, they are all sponsored by British taxpayer money!!

Strange old world, where the interest of Mohammed comes before the interest of John!!

"where the interest of Mohammed comes before the interest of John"

I thought politicians worshiped Mamon, at least when it comes to filling-in their expenses-claims ?

And isn't that a wonderful photo, in the OP, how an increasingly-desperate politician shows his respect for the citizens ?

[KittenKong]

Dont blame the Tories: all parties would probably end up doing something similar.

Like it or not the UK has a debt of GBP 1.5Trillion, which is still increasing at the rate of GBP45 per second. And that doesnt take into account future pension liabilities, which could be several times more.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Whichever government is in power will have to do something about the mess that Labour under Blair and Brown caused. I just hope that Labour dont return to power as they would probably manage to knock the final nail into the coffin.

[evadgib]

I think you're right, many expat pensioners will need to re-visit the numbers again, now doubt the Whitehall number crunchers have done a similar exercise, certainly the fact there is little support from the electorate and actually other benefit cuts are pretty widely supported.

I suspect at the end of the day most people will stay here, but certainly our lifelines are being eroded away.

The lack of support from the electorate isnt helped by the constant use of stock photos of wrinklies in deckchairs supping pimms whenever frozen pensions attract any interest; or the widespread believe by Murdoch readers that we are trying to plunder 'their' taxes instead of accessing our own. Edited March 31, 2015 by evadgib

[i claudius]

My doctor doesnt give a stuff that i live here ,when i told him he said you paid in your entitled ,see you next year.

[theoldgit]

My doctor doesnt give a stuff that i live here ,when i told him he said you paid in your entitled ,see you next year.

And neither does mine, he's a long term friend of mine, but the problem might arise if I'm admitted to hospital during a visit.

I suffered a heart attack six months ago down in Singapore which, whilst my doctor says I'm ok to travel, means I'm unlikely to be able to get any insurance cover for a visit.

I'm not arguing that the UK doesn't face tremendous difficulties that need to be addressed but I think we're soft targets and if we exercised our right to return could end up costing them more.

[theoldgit]

Just a thought, there's been a lot of discussions of the Health Surcharge paid by those who are applying to settle in the UK, maybe they should offer this facility to expats, it may be the thin edge of the wedge to charge UK taxpayers this surcharge, but it might be more palatable to those who cannot get insurance under the current proposals.

[trevoromgh]

Alternatively should the expat community go to the European Court of Human Rights to demand the right to have our NI contributions refunded for the withdrawal of NHS services previously available to them? Should amount to a tidy sum.

[Brit_Doggie]

Why you think we left your politics stink,why would i or anyone stay in my own country and be treated as a alien,but good on ya you give handouts to others but not your own,You should put your own house in order before you start telling me what to do!

[Bernard Flint]

This little gem could well prove to be the tipping point for any expatriate pensioners who are already considering returning to their homeland.

Many have "paid their stamp" for in excess of forty years, many are still UK taxpayers, some paying up to 40%, those in receipt of State Pensions have their pensions frozen, the list goes on, not to mention the fact that as they get older health insurance is expensive here and even travel insurance can be.

I suspect that some of us oldies will be looking at the sums again, I know I will. I'm not saying that I will return to the UK, but if I did, I'm covered for NHS from day one, my pension will be uplifted to the current figure, and increase yearly, I'll even get a free bus pass.

I accept there are a lot of things to factor in, but I think HMG may not save as much as they think if expats start returning "home".

Sir

I thought you had to be residing in uk for 6 months before free NHS, if you are not a resident of the uk, for a period of two years minimum

[theoldgit]

I thought you had to be residing in uk for 6 months before free NHS, if you are not a resident of the uk, for a period of two years minimum

Returning to the UK to settle

Citizens who return to the UK on a settled basis will be classed as ordinarily resident, and will be eligible for free NHS care immediately.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-to-improve-overseas-visitors-contributions-to-nhs-care

[NanLaew]

Pretty sure that the original pension and taxation model didn't take into account that a few pensioners may chose to spend their 'Golden Years' overseas. Another unseen consequence of globalization maybe.

That is their choice of course but expecting any UK government to pander to a small minority who want to have some sort of exemption is a tall order. This is after they have priced a recommended medical procedure over here and decided that the cost or possible increase in their health insurance premium (if they indeed have any health insurance) is heavily outweighed by flying home and getting the procedure by the NHS for free.

We are as insignificant to our home government as we are to that of our Thai hosts. But they both want your wallets.

BTW, is anyone claiming that they are 'living' here going to be voting over there in May?

[Bernard Flint]

I thought you had to be residing in uk for 6 months before free NHS, if you are not a resident of the uk, for a period of two years minimum

Returning to the UK to settle

Citizens who return to the UK on a settled basis will be classed as ordinarily resident, and will be eligible for free NHS care immediately.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rules-to-improve-overseas-visitors-contributions-to-nhs-care

settled basis, meaning not living in Thailand, and its 6 months before you are classed as settled

[Jip99]

My doctor doesnt give a stuff that i live here ,when i told him he said you paid in your entitled ,see you next year.

And neither does mine, he's a long term friend of mine, but the problem might arise if I'm admitted to hospital during a visit.

I suffered a heart attack six months ago down in Singapore which, whilst my doctor says I'm ok to travel, means I'm unlikely to be able to get any insurance cover for a visit.

I'm not arguing that the UK doesn't face tremendous difficulties that need to be addressed but I think we're soft targets and if we exercised our right to return could end up costing them more.

It is the feeling of being 'conned' by rule changes,

Decisions were made to live here based on a few assumptions that are being taken away.

[theoldgit]

settled basis, meaning not living in Thailand, and its 6 months before you are classed as settled

Which is what "thonglorjimmy" seems to be saying when he talks about returning to the UK.

NHS hospital treatment in England

If you move to the UK, you will not be charged for NHS hospital treatment from the date that you arrive as long as:

• you intend to live permanently in the UK, and
• you have the right to live permanently in the UK or have a "route to settlement" that will allow permanent residence in due course

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1087.aspx?categoryid=68&subcategoryid=162

[JockPieandBeans]

Alternatively should the expat community go to the European Court of Human Rights to demand the right to have our NI contributions refunded for the withdrawal of NHS services previously available to them? Should amount to a tidy sum.

Whilst I agree with your sentiments. I think it would be a pointless exercise unless you had every payslip you were issued from the day you started working to show the amounts that you have paid in NI contributions. Furthermore, regardless of the garbage that Politicians spout, we all know that monies are not divvied up into individual pots for each service. All monies go to a central pot and are then allocated to each subsidiary.

1st grand failure that has led the UK to where it is now, in a financial mess.

A few to points to ponder.

1. It is my understanding that anybody residing in the UK, who only has the State Pension, will not pay any tax and will more than likely be receiving all sorts of top up benefits to assist them financially. Even taking the NHS services out of the equation, ex-pat pensioners are getting shafted left, right and centre.

2. I currently, probably not the only one, have an index linked pension from the age of 40. That is taxed at source, nothing I can do about that, but it means that I will continue to pay tax in the UK until the day I die. The likelihood of me returning to the UK are next to nothing. I may not remain in Thailand, it might be elsewhere in the world.

3. Taking point 2 to its logical conclusion, I am about 15 years away from a State Pension. By the time that comes around, the State Pension will be my 3rd pension. Combined, that will mean a lot of tax being paid for a nil return. Their must be others in the same boat.

Although I have time on my hands, and things may change Their must be others who are experiencing this now or will do so in the near future.

Thoughts please.

[Eff1n2ret]

Furthermore, regardless of the garbage that Politicians spout, we all know that monies are not divvied up into individual pots for each service. All monies go to a central pot and are then allocated to each subsidiary.

3. Taking point 2 to its logical conclusion, I am about 15 years away from a State Pension. By the time that comes around, the State Pension will be my 3rd pension. Combined, that will mean a lot of tax being paid for a nil return. Their must be others in the same boat.

Thoughts please.

I'm sure the ECHR would fall back on the same argument which they accepted in the 'Carson' frozen pensions case, first stated in the House of Lords - “... from the point of view of the citizens who contribute, National Insurance contributions are little different from general taxation which disappears into the communal pot of the consolidated fund. The difference is only a matter of public accounting.”

I am fortunate to have the (frozen) State Retirement Pension and a combination of other pensions and income from house rental, and HMRC gets its pound of flesh from me every month. I have lived full-time in Thailand for more than 5 years, but as far as I am aware I am unable to avoid taxation on pensions paid from the UK, and the right to be treated by the NHS if I fell ill during visits to the UK was the only small 'payback' for the tax I pay. I think the previous system was quite fair, and I now resent paying the tax much more than previously. UK citizens who are paying tax to the UK government should have full entitlement wherever they live in the world.

[uptheos]

This little gem could well prove to be the tipping point for any expatriate pensioners who are already considering returning to their homeland.

Many have "paid their stamp" for in excess of forty years, many are still UK taxpayers, some paying up to 40%, those in receipt of State Pensions have their pensions frozen, the list goes on, not to mention the fact that as they get older health insurance is expensive here and even travel insurance can be.

I suspect that some of us oldies will be looking at the sums again, I know I will. I'm not saying that I will return to the UK, but if I did, I'm covered for NHS from day one, my pension will be uplifted to the current figure, and increase yearly, I'll even get a free bus pass.

I accept there are a lot of things to factor in, but I think HMG may not save as much as they think if expats start returning "home".

Sir

I thought you had to be residing in uk for 6 months before free NHS, if you are not a resident of the uk, for a period of two years minimum

I guess if you are a pensioner and develop a serious problem you go back and say, "I've returned to spend my final years". There will be no cost involved, so there is still something akin to a lifeline.

UK expats fall victim to health tourism

Expatriate Britons have been caught up in a major crackdown on ' health tourists' announced by the Government yesterday.

Under new restrictions, people who fly to Britain to exploit the NHS will be denied free care.

The ban preventing visitors and failed asylum seekers from milking the system is likely to come into force by next April.

Health Minister John Hutton warned that health tourism was a 'significant' problem and swift action was needed to safeguard the NHS for taxpayers.

The new rules may lead to all patients being asked for proof of residence, such as a passport or electricity bill.

However, pensioners from the UK who live abroad for more than half the year will be denied free treatment.

No matter how much they have paid in tax and National Insurance over the years, such expatriates will now have to pay for NHS care back in Britain.

Only treatment for emergencies - such as heart attacks, accidents or sudden illness - will still be free.

The move will hit thousands who have retired to the Spanish costas, France or other European countries.

Under existing rules, pensioners are only supposed to spend up to three months abroad to qualify for free NHS care. But officials did not vigorously apply this rule.

Under the 'health tourism' clampdown, thousands of expat pensioners will find themselves being quizzed on their eligibility.

The Department of Health said it had made one concession - that pensioners who return to the UK 'to spend their final years' will still be eligible for free care.

But pensioners who spend more than three months outside the EU - in countries such as Canada, America or Australia - will find they become ineligible.

Overall, the proposed law changes will mean that, unless people from overseas meet strict eligibility criteria, they will be able to receive only emergency care.

Typical cases of 'health tourism' include foreigners coming to the UK on a business trip only to turn up at an NHS hospital demanding treatment for a long- standing problem such as kidney failure.

Pregnant women from overseas also fly in shortly before giving birth. Failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants will be stopped from receiving free treatment for conditions which arise after their legal status has been determined.

The rule allowing anyone living in the UK for 12 months to get free treatment, regardless of immigration status, will no longer apply.

However, there is already concern about how the crackdown will work in practice. Failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants with infectious diseases including TB, rabies, measles or smallpox will be given free treatment.

But the Health Department admitted yesterday that the policy for HIV and Aids sufferers had still to be fully worked out.

The NHS faces a soaring drugs and treatment bill for HIV cases, up to a third of which are thought to come from overseas. Under the plans, HIV 'health tourists' will be refused the right to start a 'new course of treatment'.

But ministers have yet to decide exactly what this means for HIV sufferers, as they are constantly on drugs costing up to £15,000 a year.

Doctors may be expected to tell patients they cannot be treated with drugs which would keep them alive longer.

Mr Hutton said it would fall to NHS managers to make sure people qualified for free treatment and not doctors and nurses.

But there are fears that A&E departments would be swamped by migrants desperate for nonemergency care but unable to get it elsewhere.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-204961/UK-expats-fall-victim-health-tourism.html#ixzz3W1crFuF3

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Edited April 1, 2015 by uptheos

[billd766]

Pretty sure that the original pension and taxation model didn't take into account that a few pensioners may chose to spend their 'Golden Years' overseas. Another unseen consequence of globalization maybe.

That is their choice of course but expecting any UK government to pander to a small minority who want to have some sort of exemption is a tall order. This is after they have priced a recommended medical procedure over here and decided that the cost or possible increase in their health insurance premium (if they indeed have any health insurance) is heavily outweighed by flying home and getting the procedure by the NHS for free.

We are as insignificant to our home government as we are to that of our Thai hosts. But they both want your wallets.

BTW, is anyone claiming that they are 'living' here going to be voting over there in May?

Yes, ME. Not only do I claim to live here I actually I DO live here and the HMRC know it as does the county council where I have a proxy vote.

I WILL be voting and it WILL be for UKIP as at least they seem to have the interests of the British people at heart.

What would appeal to my sense of humour is if ALL the current party leaders lose their seats in the coming election.

[baboon]

The buggers could bill me 500% of costs for all I care - they can't refuse to treat you and good luck with getting blood out of a stone afterwards. If that makes me a fraudster in the government's eyes, tough ca-ca to them.

[trevoromgh]

After some more digging around I've found this Daily Mail article http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-190218/Ex-pat-pensioners-denied-NHS-treatment.html in which the then Conservative health spokesman Liam Fox said :-

"There could be no clearer betrayal of hardworking British citizens than to deprive our own pensioners of the use of the NHS to which they have contributed

throughout their lives at a time when health tourists and illegal asylum seekers are making use of these very facilities."

So yet again I ask David Cameron why the big U-turn in policy !!?

[dsfbrit]

As several posters have correctly stated, referencing several sources, we certainly are entitled to free NHS services - all of them - as soon as we return to the UK and say we are there to live permanently.

That is the important point, the fact we have returned permanently. How we prove this exactly I am not sure.

However, if we do this and then return to Thailand and try to do it again a year or 2 later, I wonder how we will be viewed then. How often can we return 'permanently' is something I have pondered for some time.

I suspect I will use a Thai hospital or even an Indian hospital for more minor ailments/operations (I went to India recently for some elective surgery on my hip) and return to the UK for more major problems that would require a lot of expertise and longer term care both as an in patient and an out patient. I suppose certain cancers would come into this category.

I have just recently registered to vote in the UK elections. When I left the UK 10 years ago I stopped voting as I felt that as I had left the UK, I should leave the voting to those still living their lives there. However, I am fed up not having a say in the dreadful decisions that seem to be thrust our way by the UK government, that this year I will vote for sure.

I was a Tory (I know booooo!!!), but they like all the mainstream parties seem to be keen to give 12 billion quid a year in foreign aid to all kinds of dodgy governments and despots around the world, but won't fund the health needs of people who have paid into the system (for over 30 years in my case). I therefore will vote UKIP this time as they are the only ones who seem to be against all this money being spent on foreign aid whilst we expats are expected to pay for NHS treatment in our own country.

[nong38]

What we to remember is that "politics" ( the art of governing ) is a profession, we are just called upon every 5 years or so to rubber stamp the "democracy" side of things, in the time in between we dont count and they dont listen to the public opinion, all part of the game, the Westminster game.

The honourable thing to do if they want to exclude ex pats from the NHS now is to stop taking our taxes and tell us that we are on our own, but no, its heads I win and tails you lose! One of the favourite tricks of politicians.

The cheek of them then asking for our support says it all.

As far getting travel Insurance to visit the UK is concerned that is easier said than done I fear as age is against us. Even in the UK now the general rule of thumb is that to apply for travel insurance you must have lived in the UK for the previous 6 months, before you even tell them how old you are, come to think of it Insurance companies and politicians do have a lot in common and why they both equally despised.

Edited April 9, 2015 by nong38

[dsfbrit]

Nong, I have paid a lot of National Insurance contributions during the years I lived and worked in the UK and I would not accept the UK government telling me I am 'on my own' now. Whilst the UK government is giving 12 billion pounds a year in foreign aid and allowing illegal immigrants and 'asylum' seekers full access to the NHS despite them never paying a penny into the system, I will do whatever it takes to 'get around' the system that prevents me getting 'free' treatment from the NHS. BY the way. before I get labelled a 'racist' as so often happens when people like me makes comments like this, I don't blame the people from abroad playing the game that allows them to leave their crappy countries and rotten lives behind them and move to the UK - in their position I would do the same. I blame the daft politicians in the UK that have allowed this to happen.

[nong38]

Nong, I have paid a lot of National Insurance contributions during the years I lived and worked in the UK and I would not accept the UK government telling me I am 'on my own' now. Whilst the UK government is giving 12 billion pounds a year in foreign aid and allowing illegal immigrants and 'asylum' seekers full access to the NHS despite them never paying a penny into the system, I will do whatever it takes to 'get around' the system that prevents me getting 'free' treatment from the NHS. BY the way. before I get labelled a 'racist' as so often happens when people like me makes comments like this, I don't blame the people from abroad playing the game that allows them to leave their crappy countries and rotten lives behind them and move to the UK - in their position I would do the same. I blame the daft politicians in the UK that have allowed this to happen.

I agree with you, I spent a lifetime paying taxes and NI, I never had a choice about it and its not being open and honest with the contributors by not telling them about the little rules they would never dream of, like the one that affects ex pat pensioners who leave the UK only to find that the state pension has now been frozen!

How can that be seen as fair? How can they look themselves in the mirror and thinks its ok? But they still take our taxes and if they are going to continue with that and they will then they should give us access to the NHS , or, say no NHS, keep your tax and self insure yourself, the goal posts are never moved to our advantage, its going to be a big ask to get them to change but that does not mean we should ever give up and pile the pressure whenever we get the chance.

I have always voted Conservative previously but no this time, Dave has had his chance and blown it, he has done little for me as an expat just made life more difficult, I dont know if UKIP will do more but I will give them a chance this time and I look forward to the EU referendum ( if it ever takes place ) in 1973 I voted to join the European Economic Community, the European Union is a very different animal, its heading for the United States of Europe, thats the only way the Euro can survive and I am not convinced that is what the UK wants. Our influence inside is 1 in 27, not much is it so lets be honest, it costs us a lot in contributions and the rest would rely heavily on us for defence as they dont put enough money into their own forces so when I weigh it up I think we should be given some very good reasons to stay in or get out, its not as if they are going to stop trading with us it?

[uptheos]

The buggers could bill me 500% of costs for all I care - they can't refuse to treat you and good luck with getting blood out of a stone afterwards. If that makes me a fraudster in the government's eyes, tough ca-ca to them.

Well said, we need more that won't just bend over and take it or lay down and die!