UK expats liable for cost of NHS treatment

[trevoromgh]

Cameron tries to explain to school children the thinking behind the Tories new law to exclude expats from free NHS treatment ......

Just like the reaction I had

[i claudius]

Cameron's message to ex pats is f???k off

[elliss]

Dont blame the Tories: all parties would probably end up doing something similar.

Like it or not the UK has a debt of GBP 1.5Trillion, which is still increasing at the rate of GBP45 per second. And that doesnt take into account future pension liabilities, which could be several times more.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Whichever government is in power will have to do something about the mess that Labour under Blair and Brown caused. I just hope that Labour dont return to power as they would probably manage to knock the final nail into the coffin.

Ouch , the truth hurts.

[Cat ji]

They are all traitors. May the day come they get executed publically.

[i claudius]

They are all traitors. May the day come they get executed publically.

What will happen though ,is they will all get well paid jobs in big buisness and the E.U and die of old age in their beds while you and i will get shafted.

[ChrisB87]

I do love my home country.

[Eff1n2ret]

- as soon as we return to the UK and say we are there to live permanently.

That is the important point, the fact we have returned permanently. How we prove this exactly I am not sure.

seem to be against all this money being spent on foreign aid whilst we expats are expected to pay for NHS treatment in our own country.

This debate seems to have spread to the Pensions thread, where I have just posted this link about the proof you might be asked for:-

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/1087.aspx?CategoryID=68&SubCategoryID=162

[billd766]

Cameron's message to ex pats is f???k off

That would be my message to David Cameron.

The other part of my message will be delivered on election day when my proxy voter puts a cross against the name of Laura Bailhache, the UKIP candidate for Taunton Deane.

[Expattaff1308]

Here's the reality of it albeit in joke form...

While walking down the street one day a Member of Parliament is tragically hit by a truck and dies. His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
'Welcome to heaven,' says St. Peter.
'Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we're not sure what to do with you.'

'No problem, just let me in,' says the man.
'Well, I'd like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we'll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.'
'Really, I've made up my mind. I want to be in heaven,' says the MP. 'I'm sorry, but we have our rules.' Says St Peter

And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he went down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he found himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.
Everyone is very happy and dressed in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people.
They played a friendly game of golf and then dined on lobster,caviar and champagne.
Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly & nice guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it's time to go.
Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and wave whilst the elevator rises....The elevator rises and the door opens in heaven where St. Peter is waiting for him.
'Now it's time to visit heaven.'
So, 24 hours pass with the MP joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
'Well, then, you've spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity.'
The MP reflects for a minute, then he answers: 'Well, I would never have said it before, I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell.'
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down down to hell.
When the doors open he's in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. ' I don't understand,' stammers the MP.
'Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, danced and had a great time. Now there's just a wasteland full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened? '
The devil looks at him, smiles and says………

Yesterday we were campaigning.. Today you voted!!

[trevoromgh]

Nice one Taff I enjoyed that

[dsfbrit]

Nong, I think we are very similar politics wise. I know this is off topic, but I had my first vote when I was 18ish and voted against the EEC as even then I did not trust the politicians of the day to limit it to just a trade agreement. I was swayed by the arguments of 2 politicians, who I did not necessarily agree with politically, but I thought they had characteristics I admired namely integrity and honesty. The two politicians were at different ends of the poliitical spectrum - Anthony Wedgwood Benn and Enoch Powell. Their arguments were very persuasive about the EEC and they were proven to be right.

Eff1n2Ret, I haven't read that link yet, I will do later. I have already decided what I will do if I am diagnosed with something really 'nasty'. I will return to the UK, Nottingham in fact. I am a Forest supporter, so thought I may as well use the opportunity to watch them play whilst I am stuck in the UK. I have contacted an estate agent there and rental accommodation that would suit me fine is 500 pounds a month. As I would not have references, then I would have to pay the full 6 months in advance - fair enough. I would then have all I would need to prove I am back to stay - electric bill, council tax bill etc... I would then stay in the UK as long as necessary.

I guess including flights, but excluding food etc..., 6 months in the UK would cost me under 5000 pounds.

I would only do this if I could not get the treatment here or in India. I see the NHS option only for something that is very serious and not for minor operations such as knee surgery or whatever. Even minor heart surgery (ie stents) I would have over here or India.

I mention India, as I went there recently for a procedure that has enabled me to continue playing sport. It was carried out by one the best surgeons in South East Asia performing this operation and was half the cost of a similar operation here in Thailand - and that includes the cost of flights and hotel to Chennai.

You may find it interesting that a hip replacement (newer operation - resurfacing) surgery in India is 5000 pounds( including flights, hotel visa etc...), in Thailand 12000 pounds (550,000 baht- Bumrungrand) and Europe 14000 pounds. So before I returned to the UK to use the NHS, I would look to the Indian option first where in my experience, the facilities are world class, you get a private room, lovely nurses, good food and my surgeon was first rate - he had worked in the NHS previously.

I do not have medical insurance, I would rather fund my medical care myself - that is why I am 'happy' to pay for minor surgical procedures myself locally and would be inclined to use the NHS for something really serious - life threatening in fact.

[nong38]

Nong, I think we are very similar politics wise. I know this is off topic, but I had my first vote when I was 18ish and voted against the EEC as even then I did not trust the politicians of the day to limit it to just a trade agreement. I was swayed by the arguments of 2 politicians, who I did not necessarily agree with politically, but I thought they had characteristics I admired namely integrity and honesty. The two politicians were at different ends of the poliitical spectrum - Anthony Wedgwood Benn and Enoch Powell. Their arguments were very persuasive about the EEC and they were proven to be right.

Eff1n2Ret, I haven't read that link yet, I will do later. I have already decided what I will do if I am diagnosed with something really 'nasty'. I will return to the UK, Nottingham in fact. I am a Forest supporter, so thought I may as well use the opportunity to watch them play whilst I am stuck in the UK. I have contacted an estate agent there and rental accommodation that would suit me fine is 500 pounds a month. As I would not have references, then I would have to pay the full 6 months in advance - fair enough. I would then have all I would need to prove I am back to stay - electric bill, council tax bill etc... I would then stay in the UK as long as necessary.

I guess including flights, but excluding food etc..., 6 months in the UK would cost me under 5000 pounds.

I would only do this if I could not get the treatment here or in India. I see the NHS option only for something that is very serious and not for minor operations such as knee surgery or whatever. Even minor heart surgery (ie stents) I would have over here or India.

I mention India, as I went there recently for a procedure that has enabled me to continue playing sport. It was carried out by one the best surgeons in South East Asia performing this operation and was half the cost of a similar operation here in Thailand - and that includes the cost of flights and hotel to Chennai.

You may find it interesting that a hip replacement (newer operation - resurfacing) surgery in India is 5000 pounds( including flights, hotel visa etc...), in Thailand 12000 pounds (550,000 baht- Bumrungrand) and Europe 14000 pounds. So before I returned to the UK to use the NHS, I would look to the Indian option first where in my experience, the facilities are world class, you get a private room, lovely nurses, good food and my surgeon was first rate - he had worked in the NHS previously.

I do not have medical insurance, I would rather fund my medical care myself - that is why I am 'happy' to pay for minor surgical procedures myself locally and would be inclined to use the NHS for something really serious - life threatening in fact.

Medical Insurance is very hard to get when you pass 60 and the older you get the harder it becomes and the prices keep rising, for those who say we will never refuse to insure, it may be true, until you see what premium they ask for. I had my cataracts done this year here, it cost 400 GBP, With hips there are apparently 2 types that you can get, one lasts about 10 years the other a lot longer so do your homework as I cannot remember what they were!!

Forest were once a great team I followed them since when Len Julians arrived from Arsenal, through the days of Joe Baker, Ian Storey-Moore, Terry Hennessey, Jim Baxter and then the golden times of Brian Clough.

[dsfbrit]

I have just read in the UK press and on another thread in TV, that the next 'cunning plan' from the UK government, is to have NHS patients show their passports before they can use some NHS services. I don't think that would make any difference to my plans even with all the Thai visa extensions in there, as I would not try to hide the fact I have been living abroad, I would simply be stating that I have come back to the UK to live permanently.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/817016-hospital-patients-to-be-asked-about-uk-residence-status/

Nong, I have already had my hips 'resurfaced' in India and am back to playing squash and football. With the way Forest have been playing recently, even at 60 I may get a chance of joining their squad!

[uptheos]

TVF does like a good scare.

If you're a BC, sick and have no money go home, you WILL be taken care of.

[nong38]

According to the NHS today on the BBC site, cataracts surgery costs 1860gbp, got mine done in Thailand for 400, hios replacement in the UK is 8570gbp, just so you all now, take your passport if required, but, my guess if you speak English with an English accent and can remember your NI number or have a hospital number you are going to treated as a normal UK citizen ( provided you dont mention Manchester Utd- their supporters come from all round the world!).

[dsfbrit]

Nong, that hip replacement charge published by the BBC is for the older style Total Hip Replacement operation. I am not sure the NHS even carries out the newer Hip Resurfacing operations, it didn't 3 years ago.

uptheos, I agree with you 100 percent. However, there are people who just cannot sit opposite someone and tell them a 'story' that is not true.

When asked if they have been out of the country over the last period, they will answer 'yes' and then give all the details. To answer falsely they see as lying, which of course is what it is.

This inability to lie is a good characteristic in general, I would rather tell the truth as well. However, when I think something is SO unjust like this, I can lie through my teeth very well and not feel the slightest guilt at all !

Mind you, if the lie involved saying I was a Man U supporter - then I would just pay for the NHS operation myself.

[Ricardo]

I have just read in the UK press and on another thread in TV, that the next 'cunning plan' from the UK government, is to have NHS patients show their passports before they can use some NHS services. I don't think that would make any difference to my plans even with all the Thai visa extensions in there, as I would not try to hide the fact I have been living abroad, I would simply be stating that I have come back to the UK to live permanently.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/817016-hospital-patients-to-be-asked-about-uk-residence-status/

Nong, I have already had my hips 'resurfaced' in India and am back to playing squash and football. With the way Forest have been playing recently, even at 60 I may get a chance of joining their squad!

"the next 'cunning plan' from the UK government, is to have NHS patients show their passports before they can use some NHS services"

But many/most British citizens don't even have a passport, to show them, unless they still travel abroad ?

So all a switched-on expat would need to do, to pass this test, is say "Mai mee pass-a-port" !

And lots of UK-resident pensioners would be denied whatever NHS services were covered by this.

[nong38]

The Conservative Manifesto is available to view, its 84 pages long so how they can possibly keep all the promises in one Parliament seems a tall order for a start! Just looking at certain aspects, I like the bit about " a welfare system that is fair to all those who pay into it" Your comments are welcome..................... "grow old with dignity" unless, of course, you left the UK for a land where you suddenly found out that you were not now going to get your annual state pension increases, something they(DWP) have only just just started pointing out for a rule that originated in 1955 ( before I started work), they did take my NI contributions for 35 + years and never said a word, somewhat economic with the truth ( all parties- all the time). The there is the triple lock Pension increase, which only applies to UK based pensioners and a few others in promised lands.

I dont suppose any of the other parties will offer much different, may have a look at UKIP later. The Greens have promised to raise the Sate Pension for all UK Pensioners including ex-pats, this I like but how many seats will they get? They can promise the earth know ing they will never have to deliver.

Dave, where did it all go wrong?

[theoldgit]

During a moment of boredom I expressed my views on this latest attack on expats via the No. 10 website, I got this stock answer from the relevant Correspondence Unit.

Dear theoldgit

Re: Youre recent email (yes that how it was spelt)

Thank you for your correspondence of 31 March to David Cameron about access to healthcare. As your email relates to healthcare, it has been passed to the Department of Health and I have been asked to reply.

I note your concerns about access to NHS treatment for ex-patriates. However, now that Parliament has been dissolved before the general election, the Department cannot comment further on this matter. Any decisions on British pensioners living overseas will be a matter for the incoming Government.

For further information on plans for British pensioners living overseas, you may wish to contact the relevant political parties.

The contact details can be found at www.parliament.uk at the following link:

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/

More generally, anyone who lives outside this country for more than six months is no longer automatically entitled to free NHS hospital treatment. If the person is away on, for example, a one-off extended holiday, then they will continue to be fully entitled to free hospital treatment as soon as they return to live permanently in the UK. They will then be ordinarily resident again.

Whilst the Department is aware that many UK nationals living overseas still consider themselves to be UK residents, sometimes even maintaining accommodation here, someone who regularly and routinely spends the majority of each year settled in a residence outside the UK cannot legitimately be considered as being ordinarily resident here.

I am sorry I cannot be more directly helpful.

Yours sincerely,

Caroline Soury

Ministerial Correspondence and Public Enquiries

Department of Health

[uptheos]

"I'm here, I'm, here for keeps, I have no money. I'm sick'......I hear there are nice comfy seats now in AE

Or take a blanket and crash on the floor.

Tell them to call the police or better still an ambulance!

[kimamey]

My doctor doesnt give a stuff that i live here ,when i told him he said you paid in your entitled ,see you next year.

And neither does mine, he's a long term friend of mine, but the problem might arise if I'm admitted to hospital during a visit.

I suffered a heart attack six months ago down in Singapore which, whilst my doctor says I'm ok to travel, means I'm unlikely to be able to get any insurance cover for a visit.

I'm not arguing that the UK doesn't face tremendous difficulties that need to be addressed but I think we're soft targets and if we exercised our right to return could end up costing them more.

I don't think you have to pay for GP visits anyway. It's hospital treatment other than emergency procedures that have to be paid for.

It's noticeable that this is all based on residency but just recently the rules on capital gains tax were extended to cover those no longer resident plus I heard on here about plans to stop non residents getting the personal allowance on income tax so there are double standards. I wonder if there are plans to stop non residents getting a state pension? They don't object to me paying tax and National Insurance whilst I'm visiting

None of this surprises me with the Tories as I can see through their shifty plans with no difficulty. It must be my lack of a university education. I don't know what the Labour and Libdem plans are though.

[i claudius]

Well as for Labour last time in power it was Blair that fought all the way to the court of human rights to ensure we did not get the yearly rises,do you think Milli will do any better?,don't hold your breath

[trevoromgh]

It seems the UK Government are no longer going to refer to British ex-pats as 'ex-pats' anymore but if the latest BBC report of a Brit being killed in the Nepalese earthquake is anything to go by you will in future be called 'Non-resident Citizens' which is their way of branding those who must pay for everything when you set foot back in in the UK.

[emilymat]

I have an NHS card/number, issued last year, and a UK passport and driving licence. I live here - for now.

I doubt that if I end up in hospital in the UK they are going to charge me. My reason for saying this is that it is up to individual NHS Trusts to decide on who, or who does not, qualify for treatment. They usually have a manager of some sort to decide this. It would take a Gestapo like interrogation for them to establish I had no right to treatment. Like most, paid NI for 48 years.

[i claudius]

I have an NHS card/number, issued last year, and a UK passport and driving licence. I live here - for now.

I doubt that if I end up in hospital in the UK they are going to charge me. My reason for saying this is that it is up to individual NHS Trusts to decide on who, or who does not, qualify for treatment. They usually have a manager of some sort to decide this. It would take a Gestapo like interrogation for them to establish I had no right to treatment. Like most, paid NI for 48 years.

me to, so does my Thai wife , not the passport though, she also has a ni number.

[trevoromgh]

I have an NHS card/number, issued last year, and a UK passport and driving licence. I live here - for now.

I doubt that if I end up in hospital in the UK they are going to charge me. My reason for saying this is that it is up to individual NHS Trusts to decide on who, or who does not, qualify for treatment. They usually have a manager of some sort to decide this. It would take a Gestapo like interrogation for them to establish I had no right to treatment. Like most, paid NI for 48 years.

The UK Border Agency are now introducing scans of passports on departure as well as arrival so that your absence from the UK can be established and the data collected will be made available to NHS Trusts around the UK. In theory therefore, they won't need to interrogate you at all just present you with a bill at the end of your treatments and record it as unpaid on the same computer system so if you try to leave without paying they could stop you at the airport.

As for NI contributions, the link between them and NHS entitlement has been thrown away and so too are the old principles on which it was based as expounded in this video of Tony Benn on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LnY-jy_cE0

[emilymat]

I have an NHS card/number, issued last year, and a UK passport and driving licence. I live here - for now.

I doubt that if I end up in hospital in the UK they are going to charge me. My reason for saying this is that it is up to individual NHS Trusts to decide on who, or who does not, qualify for treatment. They usually have a manager of some sort to decide this. It would take a Gestapo like interrogation for them to establish I had no right to treatment. Like most, paid NI for 48 years.

The UK Border Agency are now introducing scans of passports on departure as well as arrival so that your absence from the UK can be established and the data collected will be made available to NHS Trusts around the UK. In theory therefore, they won't need to interrogate you at all just present you with a bill at the end of your treatments and record it as unpaid on the same computer system so if you try to leave without paying they could stop you at the airport.

As for NI contributions, the link between them and NHS entitlement has been thrown away and so too are the old principles on which it was based as expounded in this video of Tony Benn on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LnY-jy_cE0

Thanks for your post and the video link.

A couple of things. In 2010,after the Tories were elected, they, the DWP, announced they were going to 'establish' how many UK citizens were living abroad and using accommodation addresses in the UK in order to retain pension increases. They stated that if they established this was going on the individual involved would be required to 'pay back' any increase and, equally importantly, the person providing the accommodation address could be prosecuted for aiding and abetting fraud. I had not been here long and had not decided on staying long term. So, I immediately advised DWP of my address in Thailand in order my daughter, whose house I used in the UK, did not face problems.

I wonder how many ex-pats in Thailand have been 'caught' by this 'crackdown?'. I know a number who have told me I'm a fool for being honest.

Back to the NHS. I realise NI contributions do not mean anything anymore. However, when I was in the UK last summer, I went to my local doctor for a diabetes check. I was quite open with her about my circumstances (8 months here, 4 in the UK). She stated that it was quite OK.

I accept your theory that they could link visits by computer, but the, given the track record of government departments cross working like this I doubt it will happen. In any event I would think it pretty unlikely the border agency could detain a UK citizen for the reason you state. Look at the legal issues surrounding UK citizens leaving to go to Syria etc.

Anyway, I am leaving Thailand later this year, either to Spain (favourite) or the UK.

By the way, I read earlier on this thread that UK nationals living in Spain etc would be subject to the same system. I find that hard to believe. Does that mean if you are an EU national in the UK and receive NHS treatment and do not pay you would be denied exit at the airport?.

They still want my vote in the UK - by post or proxy - but, as many of us know we are now treated almost as outcasts by the UK government.

I always remember the government QC at the European CHR, speaking on the pension issue. He said..

"Those people who choose to absent themselves from the UK and make absolutely no contribution to the economy should not be surprised they cannot enjoy the benefits of the Social Security system"

So, where on earth is my income tax going if it's not contributing to HM Treasury?. I suspect many on here would like an answer.

If you conclude I have not be voted Conservative, you would be correct.

[trevoromgh]

"Does that mean if you are an EU national in the UK and receive NHS treatment and do not pay you would be denied exit at the airport?."

That is the galling thing, if you are an EU national you don't have to pay for any NHS treatment at all. So if you go to live in Spain make sure you get a Spanish EHIC card that way when you visit the UK you can legitimately claim FREE medical treatment. It's completely daft!

It is overseas visitors (now including ex-pats) who are being singled out for these charges even though we have paid NI contributions and 'still' pay other taxes as well. It is complete hypocrisy when you consider so-called 'non doms' are allowed to live in the UK free of all income taxes and receive NHS cover free of charge too.

[dageurreotype]

Dont blame the Tories: all parties would probably end up doing something similar.

Like it or not the UK has a debt of GBP 1.5Trillion, which is still increasing at the rate of GBP45 per second. And that doesnt take into account future pension liabilities, which could be several times more.

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Whichever government is in power will have to do something about the mess that Labour under Blair and Brown caused. I just hope that Labour dont return to power as they would probably manage to knock the final nail into the coffin.

And dismantle the fundamental right of everyone, particularly those who'd been made to relinquish a not insubstantial proportion of their salary to their elected government.

BTW, why are 'expats' so reviled?

[ExPratt]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

As several posters have correctly stated, referencing several sources, we certainly are entitled to free NHS services - all of them - as soon as we return to the UK and say we are there to live permanently.

That is the important point, the fact we have returned permanently. How we prove this exactly I am not sure.

However, if we do this and then return to Thailand and try to do it again a year or 2 later, I wonder how we will be viewed then. How often can we return 'permanently' is something I have pondered for some time.

I suspect I will use a Thai hospital or even an Indian hospital for more minor ailments/operations (I went to India recently for some elective surgery on my hip) and return to the UK for more major problems that would require a lot of expertise and longer term care both as an in patient and an out patient. I suppose certain cancers would come into this category.

I have just recently registered to vote in the UK elections. When I left the UK 10 years ago I stopped voting as I felt that as I had left the UK, I should leave the voting to those still living their lives there. However, I am fed up not having a say in the dreadful decisions that seem to be thrust our way by the UK government, that this year I will vote for sure.

I was a Tory (I know booooo!!!), but they like all the mainstream parties seem to be keen to give 12 billion quid a year in foreign aid to all kinds of dodgy governments and despots around the world, but won't fund the health needs of people who have paid into the system (for over 30 years in my case). I therefore will vote UKIP this time as they are the only ones who seem to be against all this money being spent on foreign aid whilst we expats are expected to pay for NHS treatment in our own country.

Good point , if I went back to have something nasty treated , then I would be living in the UK for all intents and purposes while the treatment was going on. Holiday accident, living in the UK. GP is the tricky one if you have not been I think for 5 years they return your records to the Health department , so difficult to get an appointment as you need to do all the check up medical stuff before they will take you as a patient. Failing all that I'll just give them my Brothers name

And yes it is a liberty paid tax and NI for 20 years