Are big bikes safer than scooters?

[Gweiloman]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

If I'm not mistaken, it was you that introduced riding skills into the discussion. But it is indeed a valid point, if not exactly relevant to this thread.

I might agree with the first para of your post if I have any idea of Allan's point. All I can figure out is that he claims it's safer to be unskilled than skilled. Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

[CharlieH]

A number of bickering posts from the usual suspects has been removed. This is becoming repetitious from the same few people.

Next occurrence, will see ALL the posters involved on a posting holiday.

[wantan]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

If I'm not mistaken, it was you that introduced riding skills into the discussion. But it is indeed a valid point, if not exactly relevant to this thread.

I might agree with the first para of your post if I have any idea of Allan's point. All I can figure out is that he claims it's safer to be unskilled than skilled. Doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

You are wrong, Gweiloman. I did not start talking about skills. You should reread this thread if you dont believe me.

[Beardog]

Its not only unanswerable. There is also the question what should be the consequence if we would agree that big bikes are "safer"? Most of the big bike riders who classify scooters as less safe own a scooter (or other type of small bike). So there must be more in life than just trying to stay safe. We all would drive a car or take taxis if not. A certain level of risk is needed by humans. Some smoke, some ride a big bike at 200kmh and others ride a scooter. Life would be much less interesting if everything would be safe.

Truth is Wantan (DELETED). & people that have good driving skills usually do not wreck. My last wreck was 27 years ago.And I ride any size including bikes modified with car engines on the track(till 2002). (DELETED) you would see quite a huge difference. & I had a 1300cc Haybusa great bike....maybe not the best for these roads but it is one fun bike if you got the balls to ride it.

Edited April 6, 2015 by seedy
troll / flaming

[wantan]

I own a scooter and i post my opinion in a thread with the title "Are big bikes safer than scooters". Please dont put word in my mouth and stop making speculations about me. Thank you.

Edited April 6, 2015 by wantan

[seedy]

One Troll / Flaming post removed.

This makes two from the same poster in this thread today.

Please post with respect to other forum users.

[AllanB]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

Thanks, my riding skills are very basic really, learned at an age when I can't afford to fall off, so I don't go anywhere near my limits, . I want to spend the next decade or more travelling, including on a motorcycle, but without hurting myself or my lovely wife. I was pretty stupid in my younger days, got away with a lot and learned a lot as a result, all with a minimum of accidents, two of my friends were not so lucky.

I am not knocking fast, progressive, or experimental riding, nor do I knock people for actually riding bikes in the first in the first place in Thailand, my missus would far prefer we go everywhere by boring truck.

But we are talking specifics and "bikers" I assume includes everyone who rides a bike in Thailand and I would gladly put money on the old lady in question and say she will die of old age, or something other than a bike crash. Whereas (quoting Beardog) "people that have good driving skills usually do not wreck".

I don't know how many of you have driven through Paris, but I have on many many occasions and have often seen guys who have riding skills (and balls) that would knock most of yours into a cocked hat. They ride through mile after mile of traffic jam at speeds in 3 figures, often with mm's to spare, so one wrong move from a motorist and game over. That is dangerous and those guys do die...despite there considerable skills.

I think that will do from me and would add that I sincerely hope that all of you stay safe.......

[Gweiloman]

I like Allans point. At least he has the balls to think in different ways and to talk about it well knowing he will get attacked soon. Thats the way to go if you want to get new insights out of discussions. Some members dont want to understand that life and human behaviour is a bit more difficult than just thinking in yes/no and black/white categories.

But topic was "Are big bikes safer than scooters?" not "Please tell me more about your riding skills and how you would classify other members riding skills"

Thanks, my riding skills are very basic really, learned at an age when I can't afford to fall off, so I don't go anywhere near my limits, . I want to spend the next decade or more travelling, including on a motorcycle, but without hurting myself or my lovely wife. I was pretty stupid in my younger days, got away with a lot and learned a lot as a result, all with a minimum of accidents, two of my friends were not so lucky.

I am not knocking fast, progressive, or experimental riding, nor do I knock people for actually riding bikes in the first in the first place in Thailand, my missus would far prefer we go everywhere by boring truck.

But we are talking specifics and "bikers" I assume includes everyone who rides a bike in Thailand and I would gladly put money on the old lady in question and say she will die of old age, or something other than a bike crash. Whereas (quoting Beardog) "people that have good driving skills usually do not wreck".

I don't know how many of you have driven through Paris, but I have on many many occasions and have often seen guys who have riding skills (and balls) that would knock most of yours into a cocked hat. They ride through mile after mile of traffic jam at speeds in 3 figures, often with mm's to spare, so one wrong move from a motorist and game over. That is dangerous and those guys do die...despite there considerable skills.

I think that will do from me and would add that I sincerely hope that all of you stay safe.......

You seem to associate skill with recklessness. A skillful rider is not necessarily reckless (splitting traffic at high speeds with mm's to spare for eg). By the same token, a slow rider is not necessarily unskilled. However, you cannot deny that it's because to be skillful than unskilled.

Apart from skill, roadcraft is also necessary. Reading traffic, anticipating situations, watching out for hazards etc etc. As already pointed out by most clued posters, a bigger bike is, all things being equal, safer than a scooter due to better brakes, bigger tyres, more power on tap, bigger presence, etc etc. Only exception is probably where the rider is too small, not strong enough or not skilled enough to handle a big bike.

[Rhys]

The debate goes to... a draw, a split house. Matter, manor, and method.. ties..

[Shurup]

Thanks, my riding skills are very basic really, learned at an age when I can't afford to fall off, so I don't go anywhere near my limits, . I want to spend the next decade or more travelling, including on a motorcycle, but without hurting myself or my lovely wife. I was pretty stupid in my younger days, got away with a lot and learned a lot as a result, all with a minimum of accidents, two of my friends were not so lucky.

I am not knocking fast, progressive, or experimental riding, nor do I knock people for actually riding bikes in the first in the first place in Thailand, my missus would far prefer we go everywhere by boring truck.

But we are talking specifics and "bikers" I assume includes everyone who rides a bike in Thailand and I would gladly put money on the old lady in question and say she will die of old age, or something other than a bike crash. Whereas (quoting Beardog) "people that have good driving skills usually do not wreck".

I don't know how many of you have driven through Paris, but I have on many many occasions and have often seen guys who have riding skills (and balls) that would knock most of yours into a cocked hat. They ride through mile after mile of traffic jam at speeds in 3 figures, often with mm's to spare, so one wrong move from a motorist and game over. That is dangerous and those guys do die...despite there considerable skills.

I think that will do from me and would add that I sincerely hope that all of you stay safe.......

It takes many skills to ride a bike and the Paris guys from your example are completely lacking some of these necessary skills. Like G-Man said, being skilled doesn't mean being reckless. I'd actually think the opposite is true - being reckless means being unskilled.

[BSJ]

I know the facts could prove me wrong, but I am going to stick my neck out here and say most big bikes are safer than most scooters/small bikes.....if the big bike is being ridden by someone in a manor that is within the capabilities of the rider and his chosen mount.

And when I say big bike I mean 600cc or bigger on-road machine.

We could add some capable medium capacity machines that standout like the KTM 290/390, Kwaka GPZ300, Yamaha R3, but the OP said big bikes!

[wantan]

A scooter has smaller brakes, tires, shorter wheelbase and so on, because its not made for higher speeds. Its made for easy, agile low speed handling. Bigger scooters (maxxiscooters) have bigger brakes and tires and wheelbase because they can go higher speeds. Every bike has brakes and specs that fit its pupose. Of course if you pay more you get better specs.

I just recall all the wrecks that get collected everytime a new big bike model gets on the market in thailand. All the new owners sure have ridden scooters at some point before. Then they get a new big bike and many of them crash in the first weeks. If they bought a new scooter i guess no one would crash. Seems all these better brakes dont help that much...

But OK, i give up now and agree with Gweiloman. Riding a Scooter is one of the last real adventures. Its so damned unsafe, better not even think about it or you will have nightmares

[CharlieH]

I think the best phrase for this, and indeed for many things is this..... "Don't let your ambitions over-rule your capabilities" you can have the best specs on the planet, but if you havnt got the matching skills/experience, you'll end up in a wreck.

[Gweiloman]

A scooter has smaller brakes, tires, shorter wheelbase and so on, because its not made for higher speeds. Its made for easy, agile low speed handling. Bigger scooters (maxxiscooters) have bigger brakes and tires and wheelbase because they can go higher speeds. Every bike has brakes and specs that fit its pupose. Of course if you pay more you get better specs.

I just recall all the wrecks that get collected everytime a new big bike model gets on the market in thailand. All the new owners sure have ridden scooters at some point before. Then they get a new big bike and many of them crash in the first weeks. If they bought a new scooter i guess no one would crash. Seems all these better brakes dont help that much...

But OK, i give up now and agree with Gweiloman. Riding a Scooter is one of the last real adventures. Its so damned unsafe, better not even think about it or you will have nightmares

Wow!! You really don't get it do you? Your post talks about the riders, not the bikes.

To make it simple and easy for you to follow, think about your own situation. I understand that you own both a scooter and a 150 cc clutch bike. If you had to make a trip around Thailand of say 10,000 km or more, which would you choose, purely on the basis of safety?

[andreandre]

I think the best phrase for this, and indeed for many things is this..... "Don't let your ambitions over-rule your capabilities" you can have the best specs on the planet, but if you havnt got the matching skills/experience, you'll end up in a wreck.

True..and tho apparently even a monkey can learn the basics of riding a bike in a couple of years [albeit super cautiously , maybe even timidly] the matching skills/experience needed to become competent take many years..in fact, forever, if you are smart,and don't honestly believe that it is all done and dusted in a couple of years and are smart enough to realise that its an on going process as you never stop learning and putting this into everyday practice..then you have far less chance of ending up a wreck...this applies equally on a scooter or a bigbike.

Edited April 6, 2015 by andreandre

[Gweiloman]

I know the facts could prove me wrong, but I am going to stick my neck out here and say most big bikes are safer than most scooters/small bikes.....if the big bike is being ridden by someone in a manor that is within the capabilities of the rider and his chosen mount.

And when I say big bike I mean 600cc or bigger on-road machine.

We could add some capable medium capacity machines that standout like the KTM 290/390, Kwaka GPZ300, Yamaha R3, but the OP said big bikes!

Of course. It goes without saying that the rider in question is equally comfortable on a scooter or a big bike. I would have thought that this assumption would be obvious to anyone (DELETED)

Edited April 7, 2015 by seedy
troll / flaming

[wantan]

A scooter has smaller brakes, tires, shorter wheelbase and so on, because its not made for higher speeds. Its made for easy, agile low speed handling. Bigger scooters (maxxiscooters) have bigger brakes and tires and wheelbase because they can go higher speeds. Every bike has brakes and specs that fit its pupose. Of course if you pay more you get better specs.

I just recall all the wrecks that get collected everytime a new big bike model gets on the market in thailand. All the new owners sure have ridden scooters at some point before. Then they get a new big bike and many of them crash in the first weeks. If they bought a new scooter i guess no one would crash. Seems all these better brakes dont help that much...

But OK, i give up now and agree with Gweiloman. Riding a Scooter is one of the last real adventures. Its so damned unsafe, better not even think about it or you will have nightmares

Wow!! You really don't get it do you? Your post talks about the riders, not the bikes.

To make it simple and easy for you to follow, think about your own situation. I understand that you own both a scooter and a 150 cc clutch bike. If you had to make a trip around Thailand of say 10,000 km or more, which would you choose, purely on the basis of safety?

No i talk about bikes and safety and accident rates that increase on big bikes, while you like to talk about riding skills.

>...a trip around Thailand of say 10,000 km or more...

So now, after an endless number of posts, you try to introduce new rules that help to proof your thesis. I prefer my scooter for city riding, i already said this several times before. For doing 10,000km i would prefer a maxi-scooter like the Maxsym 600 over my CBR150. Purely on the basis of safety and comfort. Hope this helps.

"Is a maxi-scooter a scooter or a big bike?" should be the next topic, as soon as we have finished this one. I am really keen on discussing this. Sound as thrilling as the question "What is a big bike?"

[RubberSideDown]

All riders being equal, the bike with the shorter braking distance from a given speed, better acceleration, sharper handling, etc will be the safer choice as long as it's in competent hands- all riders aren't equal, though. An idiot (and, based on observation over many years, most riders- both Thai and foreign- are idiots in the sense that they take no pride or real interest in becoming good riders and feel they're 'good enough' with a couple hours' practice and see no reason to work on becoming better) is in danger no matter what he's on, but is likely better off on a scooter as the limited capabilities are a closer match to his limited skills.

A good rider will generally be fine on anything on two wheels, but even Valentino Rossi can't exceed the braking limits of something like a Click- if he needs to stop from 100kph in 40 meters when the bike can stop in 50 meters at best, he's going to have an accident. From a safety standpoint, I'll take the bike that will give me the most options in an emergency, be it hitting the brakes or the gas or leaning it over in a heartbeat. There's no argument that scooters are more convenient in many situations, and I've owned Waves for 15 years for running to the market or the gym, but they're definitely not as 'safe' as my bigger bikes in the sense of what I can do in a dangerous situation. Of course, I ride the two bikes differently- I gear up differently- I have way more respect for my 14R than my Wave (which is actually not too smart on my part as any vehicle needs to be respected on the road), but when someone pulls out in front of me or (especially) attempts to overtake me, I have more control over the situation on my Kawi than my scooter, and I'd say in that aspect it's 'safer'.

The 'It depends on the rider' argument doesn't really hold up when the rider in question can ride decently- for a tourist who's never been on two wheels, a scooter is 'safer' (though still a deathtrap for the incompetent)- if you can ride without getting in over your head with some power under you, you're better off (from a safety standpoint) on a bigger bike with better brakes, acceleration, and traction.

[andreandre]

All riders being equal, the bike with the shorter braking distance from a given speed, better acceleration, sharper handling, etc will be the safer choice as long as it's in competent hands- all riders aren't equal, though. An idiot (and, based on observation over many years, most riders- both Thai and foreign- are idiots in the sense that they take no pride or real interest in becoming good riders and feel they're 'good enough' with a couple hours' practice and see no reason to work on becoming better) is in danger no matter what he's on, but is likely better off on a scooter as the limited capabilities are a closer match to his limited skills.

A good rider will generally be fine on anything on two wheels, but even Valentino Rossi can't exceed the braking limits of something like a Click- if he needs to stop from 100kph in 40 meters when the bike can stop in 50 meters at best, he's going to have an accident. From a safety standpoint, I'll take the bike that will give me the most options in an emergency, be it hitting the brakes or the gas or leaning it over in a heartbeat. There's no argument that scooters are more convenient in many situations, and I've owned Waves for 15 years for running to the market or the gym, but they're definitely not as 'safe' as my bigger bikes in the sense of what I can do in a dangerous situation. Of course, I ride the two bikes differently- I gear up differently- I have way more respect for my 14R than my Wave (which is actually not too smart on my part as any vehicle needs to be respected on the road), but when someone pulls out in front of me or (especially) attempts to overtake me, I have more control over the situation on my Kawi than my scooter, and I'd say in that aspect it's 'safer'.

The 'It depends on the rider' argument doesn't really hold up when the rider in question can ride decently- for a tourist who's never been on two wheels, a scooter is 'safer' (though still a deathtrap for the incompetent)- if you can ride without getting in over your head with some power under you, you're better off (from a safety standpoint) on a bigger bike with better brakes, acceleration, and traction.

This is a good assessment of a very muddled OP ....and basically confirms what i said back in #57...

[andrewrooney]

Seems this thread is turning quite, shall we say, "Socratic..."

What is a "big bike"?

What is a "scooter"? Is a Wave a "scooter" or something else?

What is "dangerous"?

What is "skill"?

I feel like I'm pondering the meaning of life here

[wantan]

Of course i can somehow agree with RSD. But this is his own definition of safety. Its in no way backed up by any researches/surveys that a scooter type bike is "less safe". And it never will be, because safety is a very vague term and would have to be defined first. Is it the accident rate per 1000 riders per year? Is it the death rate? Can you mix city riding and touring in a research as "being equal"? etc...

While "equal conditions" is a highly theoretical term which you will never be able to achieve on public streets. And why taking things like "road presence" and "respect for big bikes" into the equation then? Shouldnt the road users also all be considered as equal and show the same respect for all vehicles?

It all comes down to a weird mix of facts, speculations and individual interpretation. Imo the question is unanswerable.

But discussion is getting personal again. Very sad.

[wantan]

Seems this thread is turning quite, shall we say, "Socratic..."

What is a "big bike"?

What is a "scooter"? Is a Wave a "scooter" or something else?

What is "dangerous"?

What is "skill"?

I feel like I'm pondering the meaning of life here

Yes, if someone is claiming that big bikes are safer than scooters he should at least define these things first.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Things like braking distance, acceleration, handling, etc are not subject to speculation but are measurable quantities- anyone who's been riding for a period of time beyond the beginner phase knows how these characteristics can help a good rider stay safe as they're tools that can be used for accident avoidance by a skilled operator. As far as 'respect shown by road users' goes, there is the way it should be, and there is reality. My view is backed up by having ridden on both big bikes and scooters in Thailand and elsewhere for many years and over long distances. Your constant assertion that the differences can't be measured seems pretty silly in light of the fact that there are so many of us who have ridden both types of bikes in different environments and are qualified to make the call. A preponderance of anecdotal evidence is telling enough, IMHO.

[wantan]

To make it even more complicated:
Why always look at the rider, it's equally valid to consider risk and safety for other road users.

I recall a member going >200kmh on a public roads when suddenly a pick-up crossed his way. A security risk not only for the rider imo.

[andrewrooney]

let's complicate it more:

Is a Wave safer than a Click?

[Gweiloman]

let's complicate it more:

Is a Wave safer than a Click?

Equally. But less safe than a Ninja 650 imo, hahahaha.

[wantan]

Wave has drum brakes or discs?

[seedy]

Troll / Flaming posts removed.

See post #101 - I am in complete agreement.

If the two main protagonists can not come to a peaceful accord on their own, I am more than willing to assist them.

[seedy]

One Nonsense post removed

[jonnyscot]

This is turning into quite a popular discussion, haven't checked in for a few days and now 6 pages or so, well done Gweil for casting the bait to bring all these good folks together to debate the issues concerning our safety