Bangkok's lavish, air-conditioned malls consume as much power as entire provinces

[zakk9]

Actually, at the Siam Paragon shopping mall you can buy a Lamborghini. These cars are sold 3 times the price you would buy them in Europe... because of the tax.

So, with one car, rich people will pay more tax than what you will pay in your whole lifetime.

But that's great then. Thanks to those kind Lamborghini drivers, all schools in Thailand will have electricity soon then. They will, won't they?

[FalangBaa]

Yes, they consume more power than an entire province, but they also generate more money for the economy than some of the most rural provinces!

[zakk9]

Yes, they consume more power than an entire province, but they also generate more money for the economy than some of the most rural provinces!

How do they generate more money and where does the money go?

[new2here]

I don't have a problem with the malls. I also agree that they do generate economic activity and do so over and across multiple strata of the economic spectrum.

Lower end may be the support staff or "back office" staff who are hired to do things like stocking, maintenance, janitorial staff and other such tasks.

On the middle strata, you could point to the some of the sales staff and perhaps front-line management.

There's some trickle down too. Most major brands advertise in various media forms - that's sales for those entities..

The stores also commonly buy local goods as a part of starting and running their business; they buy packing materials (the bags they put your purchases into), equipment to furnish and maintain the retail outlet.

I'd bet that the vast, vast majority of the goods sold at these higher end malls have been imported legally - thus the applicable taxes paid.

Is this all good? No. I don't think so.. But I don't think it's bad.

What I do think I would want to see is a more visible effort into reducing their "footprint" in terms of both resources used, but also waste products created.

I don't besmirch The Mall Group, or any retailer for pursuing their chosen business model - even of that's focusing on one segment of the economic spectrum.

[zakk9]

There's a big difference between shopping malls with a variety of local shops and luxury shopping malls like Emporium and Siam Paragon. The luxury malls mainly sell foreign luxury brands and most of the profit disappears to foreign corporations that pay little or no tax in Thailand.

[petedk]

Yes, they consume more power than an entire province, but they also generate more money for the economy than some of the most rural provinces!

I was talking to an engineer last week about the proposed highest building in Bangkok, which will be built near Central Rama 9. He made some rough calculations as to how much power would be needed to supply air con to the building. Yes, that was more electricity than is used in an entire province elsewhere. The other problem was the increase in traffic around that area.

[gerry1011]

Actually, at the Siam Paragon shopping mall you can buy a Lamborghini. These cars are sold 3 times the price you would buy them in Europe... because of the tax.

So, with one car, rich people will pay more tax than what you will pay in your whole lifetime.

But that's great then. Thanks to those kind Lamborghini drivers, all schools in Thailand will have electricity soon then. They will, won't they?

I am not the person you should ask that question.

The rich pays a lot of taxes when he buys a Lambo... but I can't say if that amount is going to a schools, the roads, the hospitals, the government official salaries, or whatever.

What I know is that the contribution of the rich buying such car in Siam Paragon is far more important than your, or the very vast majority of, farang contribution.

Edited April 7, 2015 by gerry1011

[colinneil]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Hey, I am working hard on winning prick of the year on tv, stop crowding my space man.

Never mind. You're WAY out in front

Followed a close second by Cypress Hill.

[Enoon]

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And there are still schools, without electricity. All these malls! And it is still a third world country.

I see talking out of one's backside remains in vogue.

Thailand is hardly 3rd world.

Thailand has all the symptoms of a third world country, failing education system, lacking infrastructure, rampant corruption, enormous differences between rich and poor etc. Worst of all, as opposed to its Southeast Asian neighbours, Thailand is moving very slowly in the right direction, if at all.

You've also just described the USA and most of Europe .....so I have to ask, if you hate Thailand so much what are you doing here?

I didn't say I hate Thailand, did I? However, I do prefer to have a realistic view upon the country I live and work in rather than making up some glorified dream.

As for "failing education system, lacking infrastructure, rampant corruption, enormous differences between rich and poor etc." describing the USA and most of Europe... no, the differences are enormous, at least compared to most of Europe. I've never lived in the USA.

Thailand never invaded a nation under false pretenses leading to the genocide of over 500,000 people, the division in wealth in the West is far greater than in Thailand and regarding infrastructure, granted my nation the UK does have better infrastructure....And all citizens have to pay an additional tax called council tax to support that infrastructure.

The GINI index, which is a measure of wealth equality/inequality, gives surprisingly similar figures for the UK and Thailand.

The higher the number, the greater the inequality:

UK - 38

Thailand - 40

The country with the greatest inequality is Lesotho - 63.2

The country with the least is Sweden - 23

The EU as a whole - 30.7

The USA - 41

These are the most recent figures I could find. The dates of the figures vary by country.

[Cypress Hill]

Hey, I am working hard on winning prick of the year on tv, stop crowding my space man.

Never mind. You're WAY out in front

Followed a close second by Cypress Hill. alt=clap2.gif> alt=clap2.gif>

Is that what passes for humour in that Shrek-sized head of yours?

[SilverBeast]

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Maybe a Mall Energy tax would be a way to go and take that money and get proper electricity is some schools.

How about no. Taxation is theft after all. Why should those people in Bangkok be forced into paying for some school in some part of the country they might never even visit?

Malls generate profits for business owners... as well as plenty of jobs, direct and indirect.

A Dior dress directly feeds the mouth of the business owner, but indirectly it feeds the mouth of the store's staff, the marketers, the mall's cleaners, the food court cooks, the advertising agencies, the designers in France, the garment factories in Bengladesh, the security guards, the transport companies, the taxi drivers, ... , or even the beggars and lotery sellers who wait outside the malls.
Hopefully there are lots of luxury goods to buy in luxury malls. It feeds millions of people around the world.
And hopefully there are plenty of people who buy these products too!

Yes, it feeds a lot of people... just, keeping them from starving to death, but not much more. But few of the rich people who buy the luxury goods pay much tax, if any at all. They contribute as little as they can to society and prefer to spend their not-so-hard-earned money on Dior dresses rather than helping society move forward and increasing the quality for all involved. The reality is that of the price of a dress, only a very tiny fraction ends up in the pockets of those who actually made the garment.

The same happens in "your world"...

Only a tiny fraction of the price of the cheap beer you buy at 7/11 is going to those who plant barley...

Only a tiny fraction of the price of your bowl of rice goes to the rice farmers...

Only a tiny franction of the price of your low cost airline ticket is going to the one who cleans your seat after you sat in it...

And so on...

Actually, at the Siam Paragon shopping mall you can buy a Lamborghini. These cars are sold 3 times the price you would buy them in Europe... because of the tax.
So, with one car, rich people will pay more tax than what you will pay in your whole lifetime.

Its almost like people cheer when other people are forced to pay tax. How's that actually working out huh? Government is taking all that money and doing what with it? Perhaps it would actually be better spent by the people who are losing it due to the thieving process known as tax.

Hows it working out for Thailand, Rather odd to see nicer cars there. I wonder why? Perhaps if the government didn't thieve all that money when people buy them then more nicer cars would be in Thailand and the older shittier cars might get replaced...

[Torrens54]

What a bunch of petty-minded grizzlers!

Do you think the Malls get the Electricity for FREE? They pay for it, so what are you moaning about, do you have an Aircon in your home?

Some people are never happy unless they can complain about something!

[LindaLovelace]

. . . few of the rich people who buy the luxury goods pay much tax, if any at all. They contribute as little as they can to society and prefer to spend their not-so-hard-earned money on Dior dresses rather than helping society move forward and increasing the quality for all involved

Pure BS from yet another clueless farang talking on matters he knows nothing about from the best vantage point he knows . . . his reclining armchair

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-16260782

In terms of percentage of population, Thailand was the most generous, with 85% of Thais making regular charitable contributions.

I wonder if all those who give are poor.

Why is it with Thai Visa that every time there appears to be a reasonable dialogue about something, somebody like you ALWAYS has to come along and and make rude remarks and personal attacks. Are you so intellectually challenged that you cannot continue the argument/discussion without ad hominem attacks?

[LindaLovelace]

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And there are still schools, without electricity. All these malls! And it is still a third world country.

I see talking out of one's backside remains in vogue.

Thailand is hardly 3rd world.

Thailand has all the symptoms of a third world country, failing education system, lacking infrastructure, rampant corruption, enormous differences between rich and poor etc. Worst of all, as opposed to its Southeast Asian neighbours, Thailand is moving very slowly in the right direction, if at all.

You've also just described the USA and most of Europe .....so I have to ask, if you hate Thailand so much what are you doing here?

I would be the first to agree that the US and Europe has its own set of problems. But come on, the schools of the US and Europe cannot possible be compared to the schools of Thailand, which are among the worst in the world. Most of the schools in the West are clean, up-to-date, well fitted with equipment and have teachers that can actually speak the languages they teach!

There are many reasons to choose to live in Thailand that are not related to the schools, goods available here, etc. Many people detest the quasi-anarchy that exists here, and many Westerners can't seem to cope with it. But THAT is one of the things I love about Thailand. Obviously, one living in the West has more rights than one living in Thailand, but one has more actual freedom here. I can drive without constant interference by the police. I can build a house without permits or interference by inspectors. I can drill a well without permission or permit. I can burn my trash outside. I can pretty much do as I please as long as I am not directly hurting somebody else. Etc. In the US, one's life is micromanaged by all the regulations on everything from re-roofing your own house or repairing a septic tank to taking an afternoon walk in a wilderness preserve (permit required).

Am I happy with the quality of goods in Thailand? No. By and large, they sell a lot of junk here, like plumbing valves with straight threads (instead of tapered) that won't seal properly even with a whole roll of teflon tape applied. Etc. Am I happy to see so few in thailand own so much, while there are so many landless and low income poor? No; that saddens me. Am I happy when the people at the bottom finally figure out that democracy can work? Yes, absolutely. Am I happy to see the wealthy elite steal their elections with military takeovers? No. But when I load the scales with reasons for living here on one side and reasons for not living here on the other, the scale tips toward living here. My wonderful wife and her family, of course, are a substantial factor on the plus side.

But what I do not understand is why somebody would think I "hate" Thailand and should leave just because I have opinions about the negative side. Every country in the world has its pluses and minuses. Does having opinions about the negative side of a country amount to "hate"?

Again, why do so many Thai Visa members feel the need to make personal attacks against a poster who has only published his own opinion? It seems like these flamers feel personally threatened in some way. Why else would they repeatedly strike out at others with differing opinions and go for their throats? You see it again and again in the same people.

[timendres]

Seems unlikely to me. So Siam Paragon with 123GWh/year = 123.000.000 KWh x 7 B/KWh = 861.000.000 THB ?

I call BS.

It is quite likely that they are not paying 7B/KWH.

But, even if that rate is cut in half, given your math, the article is saying that the mall is paying almost ONE MILLION USD PER MONTH (roughly: 123,000,000 KWH * 3B/KWH / 12 months / 32Baht_per_dollar) on electricity!!!!

It does sound impossible.

Working the other way, my townhouse is costing about $200/month for electricity. It is three floors at roughly 100sqm (10m x 10m) per floor. If the mall was 500 meters by 500 meters (half kilometer square), and six floors, you could fit roughly 5000 (50 x 50 x 2) of my townhouses in that mall. 5000 times $200 = $1M PER MONTH. WOW.

Now I know one reason everything is so expensive there.

[jacko45k]

Probably generates twice as much revenue as well...

These malls generate nothing. They are places where rich people buy stuff they don't need in shops owned by other rich people. They are a waste of space, a waste of money and a waste of energy.

A good place to chill out though.

[Familyonthemove]

Been here 9 years and can only remember walking into a mall 3 times, fact is there is nothing there i need,

when asking thai friends why they go to the mall they say...free aircon, i cant work out who spends money there.

I wonder the same thing... I cut through the new Central Embassy mall at least once a week as an air conditioned route to the office - and I've yet to see anyone buy anything. Only see customers in the restaurants. I can't understand how the luxury shops make enough money to pay the rent?

I can see the point of a 7-11 on every corner of Sukhumvit Road - but with Paragon, Gaysorn, Amarin, Embassy, Emporium and the new Emporium we now have Burberry on every corner.

[alantheembalmer]

Siam Paragon is a great place to take a healthy walk. It's cool, the air is clean and the place is massive so you can walk a good distance. Just take the lift to the top floor and then do a complete circuit, take the escalator down to the next level, and repeat. Also, the higher you go, the fewer people there are, and you won't die of heat exhaustion.

[zakk9]

What a bunch of petty-minded grizzlers!

Do you think the Malls get the Electricity for FREE? They pay for it, so what are you moaning about, do you have an Aircon in your home?

Some people are never happy unless they can complain about something!

They pay for it yes, but electricity is a limited commodity. When somebody uses a lot, prices go up, and those with lower income can't afford to use it. When electricity is wasted the way it is some places in Bangkok, it represents a lack of solidarity and a lack of brains that is hard to understand.

[zakk9]

Its almost like people cheer when other people are forced to pay tax. How's that actually working out huh? Government is taking all that money and doing what with it? Perhaps it would actually be better spent by the people who are losing it due to the thieving process known as tax.

Hows it working out for Thailand, Rather odd to see nicer cars there. I wonder why? Perhaps if the government didn't thieve all that money when people buy them then more nicer cars would be in Thailand and the older shittier cars might get replaced...

So if tax is stealing, where do you think roads come from, or hospitals, or schools, who pays the salaries for civil servants, who pays the military and the police? Would you prefer the doubled the prices on beer or on cars or the VAT?

If you live off the grid in the middle of nowhere, I can understand if you don't want to pay tax. But if you expect that there is a road outside your house and a doctor to take care of you when you are sick, you'd better pay it.

[wabothai]

I thought the OP was about the use of electricity.

[gerry1011]

This thread has naturally become a "rich/poor" discussion, as always on this forum.

To cheer up everyone, I post this picture of 20 super cars (for which the owners paid a lot of taxes) in front of Central Embassy (another mall using a fair bit of electricity)

I understand the point of a poster here who seem to think highly about the tax systems (while he probably pays himself very very little), so he will probably be happy to know that each of these cars is taxed in millions.

Hopefully there are rich people to pay taxes and the VAT on luxury goods bought in luxury malls

Edited April 8, 2015 by gerry1011

[Luxfare]

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And there are still schools, without electricity. All these malls! And it is still a third world country.

I see talking out of one's backside remains in vogue.

Thailand is hardly 3rd world.

Thailand has all the symptoms of a third world country, failing education system, lacking infrastructure, rampant corruption, enormous differences between rich and poor etc. Worst of all, as opposed to its Southeast Asian neighbours, Thailand is moving very slowly in the right direction, if at all.

You've also just described the USA and most of Europe .....so I have to ask, if you hate Thailand so much what are you doing here?

I would be the first to agree that the US and Europe has its own set of problems. But come on, the schools of the US and Europe cannot possible be compared to the schools of Thailand, which are among the worst in the world. Most of the schools in the West are clean, up-to-date, well fitted with equipment and have teachers that can actually speak the languages they teach!

There are many reasons to choose to live in Thailand that are not related to the schools, goods available here, etc. Many people detest the quasi-anarchy that exists here, and many Westerners can't seem to cope with it. But THAT is one of the things I love about Thailand. Obviously, one living in the West has more rights than one living in Thailand, but one has more actual freedom here. I can drive without constant interference by the police. I can build a house without permits or interference by inspectors. I can drill a well without permission or permit. I can burn my trash outside. I can pretty much do as I please as long as I am not directly hurting somebody else. Etc. In the US, one's life is micromanaged by all the regulations on everything from re-roofing your own house or repairing a septic tank to taking an afternoon walk in a wilderness preserve (permit required).

Am I happy with the quality of goods in Thailand? No. By and large, they sell a lot of junk here, like plumbing valves with straight threads (instead of tapered) that won't seal properly even with a whole roll of teflon tape applied. Etc. Am I happy to see so few in thailand own so much, while there are so many landless and low income poor? No; that saddens me. Am I happy when the people at the bottom finally figure out that democracy can work? Yes, absolutely. Am I happy to see the wealthy elite steal their elections with military takeovers? No. But when I load the scales with reasons for living here on one side and reasons for not living here on the other, the scale tips toward living here. My wonderful wife and her family, of course, are a substantial factor on the plus side.

But what I do not understand is why somebody would think I "hate" Thailand and should leave just because I have opinions about the negative side. Every country in the world has its pluses and minuses. Does having opinions about the negative side of a country amount to "hate"?

Again, why do so many Thai Visa members feel the need to make personal attacks against a poster who has only published his own opinion? It seems like these flamers feel personally threatened in some way. Why else would they repeatedly strike out at others with differing opinions and go for their throats? You see it again and again in the same people.

I have no issues with people voicing concerns or complaining about serious incidents....however, how often do you see generalizing comments like 'typical Thainess' or ' all are thieves and scammers'.......not to mention the previous poster who slated a shopping mall because it uses a lot of electricity....which 1/ it pays for and 2/ do our shopping malls in the UK or US run on air? No, yet I'm willing to bet he never complained about them.

For me there are far too many miserable individuals on here who do nothing but slate Thailand and anything about it and who's hypocrisy quite frankly pees me off.

[Bangkok Barry]

I wonder just how much business these designer shops do. Whenever I've wandered through any of these malls none of the shops have ever had a single customer. Making a profit cannot possibly be their primary concern. Exposure maybe? I don't know.

[gerry1011]

I wonder just how much business these designer shops do. Whenever I've wandered through any of these malls none of the shops have ever had a single customer. Making a profit cannot possibly be their primary concern. Exposure maybe? I don't know.

A suit at Zegna is priced around 100,000b... So they don't need many customers to make a profit.

Of course, concerning the exposure it is also true. They must be present in these luxury malls. The rent is high but the products are priced accordingly.

[zakk9]

This thread has naturally become a "rich/poor" discussion, as always on this forum.

To cheer up everyone, I post this picture of 20 super cars (for which the owners paid a lot of taxes) in front of Central Embassy (another mall using a fair bit of electricity)

I understand the point of a poster here who seem to think highly about the tax systems (while he probably pays himself very very little), so he will probably be happy to know that each of these cars is taxed in millions.

Hopefully there are rich people to pay taxes and the VAT on luxury goods bought in luxury malls

Some of us do actually pay income tax in Thailand, and foreigners in total pay more income tax in Thailand than the sum of all Thai citizens, or at least that was the situation 5-6 years ago. The reason for that is that among Thai people, only regular employees pay tax, and since their salaries have traditionally been low, the sum of their income tax is low too.

- Rich people mostly evade income tax

- Farmers mostly don't pay income tax

- Businesses without a permanent address don't pay income tax (that include all the street businesses)

The result is that the total income tax in Thailand with a population of nearly 70 million is lower or comparable to European countries with less than 10% of the population. And believe it or not; Lamborghinis are heavily taxed in most of those countries as well. The fact that some rich dude pay 5 or 10 million baht in tax on his Lamborghini doesn't change the fact that he pays nothing on an income that may amount to tens or hundreds of millions per year.

This only becomes worse when a large portion of the untaxed income is spent on expensive imported goods and on energy wasted at luxury mall when the money and energy is very much needed in less central parts of this country.

[zakk9]

I wonder just how much business these designer shops do. Whenever I've wandered through any of these malls none of the shops have ever had a single customer. Making a profit cannot possibly be their primary concern. Exposure maybe? I don't know.

A suit at Zegna is priced around 100,000b... So they don't need many customers to make a profit.

Of course, concerning the exposure it is also true. They must be present in these luxury malls. The rent is high but the products are priced accordingly.

At some of the luxury malls, Siam Paragon is an example, the shop owners had to buy the shop, so it was considered an investment by many. A shop that loses money isn't a problem if you have money to hide. Ever heard of whitewashing?

[manarak]

This thread is a good revealer of socialo-communists on TV :-)

If people engaged their brains, they could think about the number of visitors of the malls.

MHS: 250.000 inhabitants, malls: probably nearly the same number of visitors in a day!

The next thing is - people complaining about some schools having no aircon... Well, schools live from tax money and I would bet all the shops in luxury malls pay taxes, which is certainly not the case of all the streetside shops in Mae Hong Son !!

Then, the cool thing about private is self-adjustment - if there was no money to be made, the malls would close down.

Socialo-Communists are always quick to want force other people to do their bidding, regulate everything and erode everyone's freedom as a consequence.

[zakk9]

This thread is a good revealer of socialo-communists on TV :-)

If people engaged their brains, they could think about the number of visitors of the malls.

MHS: 250.000 inhabitants, malls: probably nearly the same number of visitors in a day!

The next thing is - people complaining about some schools having no aircon... Well, schools live from tax money and I would bet all the shops in luxury malls pay taxes, which is certainly not the case of all the streetside shops in Mae Hong Son !!

Then, the cool thing about private is self-adjustment - if there was no money to be made, the malls would close down.

Socialo-Communists are always quick to want force other people to do their bidding, regulate everything and erode everyone's freedom as a consequence.

- Have you been to the luxury malls? Some of them have only a few thousand visitors per day.

- Most government schools have no aircon and it's not realistic to think that they will get it anytime soon. Around 2,000 schools in Thailand have no electricity at all. Many schools are in so bad shape that they represent a health hazard for the children (vermin, bacteria, buildings falling apart etc.).

- How do you know that shops in luxury malls pay tax? My guess would be that very few of them do. There are plenty of ways to avoid that.

- Many malls have been closed down because they haven't been build on realistic market research or any market research at all. Others again have resurfaced as IT-malls, markets etc. Some keep going because the owners have enough money to live with any losses or because the are able to attract naive, ignorant people who open new shops replacing those who go under.

[Luxfare]

This thread is a good revealer of socialo-communists on TV :-)

If people engaged their brains, they could think about the number of visitors of the malls.

MHS: 250.000 inhabitants, malls: probably nearly the same number of visitors in a day!

The next thing is - people complaining about some schools having no aircon... Well, schools live from tax money and I would bet all the shops in luxury malls pay taxes, which is certainly not the case of all the streetside shops in Mae Hong Son !!

Then, the cool thing about private is self-adjustment - if there was no money to be made, the malls would close down.

Socialo-Communists are always quick to want force other people to do their bidding, regulate everything and erode everyone's freedom as a consequence.

- Have you been to the luxury malls? Some of them have only a few thousand visitors per day.

- Most government schools have no aircon and it's not realistic to think that they will get it anytime soon. Around 2,000 schools in Thailand have no electricity at all. Many schools are in so bad shape that they represent a health hazard for the children (vermin, bacteria, buildings falling apart etc.).

- How do you know that shops in luxury malls pay tax? My guess would be that very few of them do. There are plenty of ways to avoid that.

- Many malls have been closed down because they haven't been build on realistic market research or any market research at all. Others again have resurfaced as IT-malls, markets etc. Some keep going because the owners have enough money to live with any losses or because the are able to attract naive, ignorant people who open new shops replacing those who go under.

And how would the mall group making losses affect you? What would you have the mall group do? Give all their wealth away? Would you do that?

I went to emquartier on Monday and all in all it employs well over 500 people who would be unemployed without it....of the mall group loses money then that's there problem.

I will say however that they're likely to lose money unless they review their prices...Replay jeans have went up in price from about 11,000thb a pair to 15,000thb a pair......they lost my custom that day as I'm not buying their building for them.