Legally change gender? You must be sterilised!

[isanbirder]

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/health/sterilization-threat-dark/1769686.html

19 countries in Europe require a person to be sterilised before he/she can legally change gender.

And there are estimated to be 1.5 million transsexuals in Europe.

[Swiss1960]

Well, that IS a challenging issue.. in Switzerland, the Swiss Office for Civil Status has issued a recommendation back in March 2012 that says - while it is still the decision of a court to decide about a gender change request - it should NOT anymore be based on SRS, HRT or sterilization, but "only" on the will and desire (and proof) of a person to live the "other" genders life, This recommendation is mainly based on the human right of bodily integrity. The Swiss Office thinks that it violates this human right when a person is required and "order" by a court to have SRS, HRT or sterilization in order to change the gender.

But on the other hand, let us assume that a woman who changed her gender identity to male without any surgery (neither SRS nor HRT nor sterilization)... now she becomes pregnant... that would be pretty difficult from various legal points of view

- how would the health insurance deal with a pregnant MAN?

- how would labor law deal with maternity leave for a MAN?

- how would civil status offices deal with biological mothers who are MAN?

probably a dozend other legal issues would come from this point only... and not to mention the issue of future child welfare when the child (or his "colleagues" in school) start to tease and torment him that his biological mother is a man.. it is already difficult enough for children adopted by gay couples, so the above situation would really be exponentially harder to grasp for both the child and his social environment..

And finally... if a woman decides that she wants to live as a man and change her gender... I can not understand why she would want to keep the possibility of becoming pregnant... It sounds pretty weird and while I really sympathize and support with LGBT rights for marriage and adoption, I would challenge such a persons mental fitness for legal gender reassignemnt. You want to be a man, so you can't be a mother in your future, that is pretty simple for me.

[Water Buffalo]

I think they confuse sex with gender. Can't we use the terms separately as social scientists do?

- how would the health insurance deal with a pregnant MAN?

- how would labor law deal with maternity leave for a MAN?

- how would civil status offices deal with biological mothers who are MAN?

As for these three questions, i think the answers wouldn't change much, especially if she may elect male gender, not male sex.

Our gender can change, our sex can't

[Swiss1960]

I think they confuse sex with gender. Can't we use the terms separately as social scientists do?

- how would the health insurance deal with a pregnant MAN?

- how would labor law deal with maternity leave for a MAN?

- how would civil status offices deal with biological mothers who are MAN?

As for these three questions, i think the answers wouldn't change much, especially if she may elect male gender, not male sex.

Our gender can change, our sex can't

Well, well... you are opening up a real can of worms... or even the box of pandorra... as of today, all computer systems I ever dropped about just have one single byte to describe somebodys gender/sex... and it is either male or female... what you suggest would mean having two flags, one for sex and one for gender

obviously gender would be a person's "free" decision to change.. but what about sex? would you suggest that sex changes with an SRS or hormone therapy or sterilization?

and the other thing now... who is going to take which of the two bytes (gender / sex) as relevant for the decisions he has to make?

- health insurances would probably look at sex and that is what would decide about services and costs, right?

- government offices would probably look at gender and put that into your official documents

But what about all other situations? You would apply for a job with gender "male" but if you get pregnant, you want all the benefits from your sex female? And what about army? You would enlist with gender "male" but you will want to be put into the female baracks because of your sex "female"? What about the US army policy "don't ask don't tell"? How would that apply?

That said... yes, I am having some issues with so called "social scientists" who publish papers but never care about real life situations...

[isanbirder]

Well, that IS a challenging issue.. in Switzerland, the Swiss Office for Civil Status has issued a recommendation back in March 2012 that says - while it is still the decision of a court to decide about a gender change request - it should NOT anymore be based on SRS, HRT or sterilization, but "only" on the will and desire (and proof) of a person to live the "other" genders life, This recommendation is mainly based on the human right of bodily integrity. The Swiss Office thinks that it violates this human right when a person is required and "order" by a court to have SRS, HRT or sterilization in order to change the gender.

Good for the Swiss!

I don't know about the medical details of having a sex change.... but surely it does not include installing a womb etc.!

I suspect objections on the grounds given by Swiss1960 and Water Buffalo are not reality-based.

But if these things should happen, then (and not now) is the time to deal with them. If you worry about all the possible (not probable) problems some action may cause, you will never do anything.

[Brit_Doggie]

no thanx i like to keep my rifle loaded.

[EmptyHead]

Well, that IS a challenging issue.. in Switzerland, the Swiss Office for Civil Status has issued a recommendation back in March 2012 that says - while it is still the decision of a court to decide about a gender change request - it should NOT anymore be based on SRS, HRT or sterilization, but "only" on the will and desire (and proof) of a person to live the "other" genders life, This recommendation is mainly based on the human right of bodily integrity. The Swiss Office thinks that it violates this human right when a person is required and "order" by a court to have SRS, HRT or sterilization in order to change the gender.

Good for the Swiss!

I don't know about the medical details of having a sex change.... but surely it does not include installing a womb etc.!

I suspect objections on the grounds given by Swiss1960 and Water Buffalo are not reality-based.

But if these things should happen, then (and not now) is the time to deal with them. If you worry about all the possible (not probable) problems some action may cause, you will never do anything.

I don't think WaterBuffalo was objecting. I think he was trying to say that sterilization shouldn't be mandatory for changing gender status, while pointing out that our sex (physical difference) and gender (social difference) are not the same thing.

[onthemoon]

no thanx i like to keep my rifle loaded.

Are you a transgender contributing to this discussion? In that case, kindly elaborate, as your opinion is interesting.

Or are you just a troll?

[AnnaBanana]

no thanx i like to keep my rifle loaded.

Yes indeed... you never know what you might meet in the woods.

[EmptyHead]

no thanx i like to keep my rifle loaded.

Yes indeed... you never know what you might meet in the woods.

I prefer blanks, thanks. That way you know you won't meet anything.

[Caitrin]

Y'all are just embarrassing yourselves.

There are binary folks and non-binary folks. For many binary people, their gender and their sex are the same, they're asking to have their identities legally recognised and don't want two flags or two markers. Non-binary folks may want a mix of markers or a different marker altogether.

Surgeries are invasive, hormone therapy is invasive. Even some binary folks do not want to take the risks associated with these procedures. They should have the right to have their markers altered based on how they want the world to see them and how they wish to operate in society. It's not always about having children (although sometimes it is the desire to have biological children, children who share your genetic material). In fact it's usually about the financial cost of these procedures and the risks associated with them.

Also there are intersex folks who also identify as trans (binary or non-binary), and have a mix of "sex" traits (internally or externally) and deserve to have their decisions about their own designation respected.

...and in an English context, usually, transgender is an adjective, not a noun. Transgender woman, transgender person. Etc.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Caitrin