'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'

[webfact]

'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'
PRAVIT ROJANAPHRUK
THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- THE new charter will bring about a controlled democracy where elected politicians will have limited power, a seminar at Thammasat University concluded yesterday.

Thammasat University political scientist Prajak Kongkirati predicted that Thailand would not return to a semi-democratic system after the next election but become a quasi-democratic country with the new draft charter putting a lot of control over elected politicians through the formation of various unelected new bodies.

"Elected politicians will be weak [under the new charter] as they will be overseen by unelected bodies," said Prajak, who launched his latest book about a democracy in transition at the event. The book was published by Same Sky Books, which organised the panel discussion at Thammasat University's Faculty of Economics.

The young political scientist said morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "The elected government cannot administer the country freely [under the new charter]," he said.

Prajak said he asked his students if they thought the May 2014 coup would be the last putsch in Thai political history and 100 per cent said "no". This, he said, was driven partly by the fact that most of the educated middle class and upper middle class believe that poor Thais do not have the knowledge or are not suited for self-governing. So, the so-called "educated people" had opted for a system of "just or fair authoritarianism".

"This kind of thinking is so deeply ingrained," he concluded, adding that if these people scrutinised an authoritarian system as much as a democratic one they may arrive at a different conclusion.

Piyabutr Saengkanokkul, a law lecturer at Thammasat, voiced a similar view but added that the new unelected bodies under the new charter would override the power of an elected government whenever the latter wanted to exercise more power.

Thailand, said Piyabutr, would only become democratic on paper and even its elections may not meet international standards under the new constitution. He said the Kingdom was trapped in a circle of nascent democracy failing to solidify and alternating with dictatorial takeovers through coups.

Thailand had failed to transition into becoming a full-fledged democracy as many people, particularly the middle and upper middle class, were disillusioned by the fact that their party of choice kept losing elections. These people eventually demanded a military takeover, he said.

Noted historian Nidhi Eoseewong said Thai civil society was not really civil as people often resorted to violence to deal with political conflicts. His view of the prospect of Thailand transitioning into a democracy is also bleak. "After May 22, I came to accept that [the country] is not in a transition to democracy but perhaps one day it will be. We'll have to ask the National Council for Peace and Order [when that will happen]."

Nidhi said Thailand was close to consolidating its democratic gains in 2014 but the coup shattered that.

"I can't imagine how we will get out of this," he concluded.

The last speaker, Thammasat political scientist Chaiwat Satha-Anand, cited the values necessary to foster democracy - tolerance and peaceful coexistence.

Chaiwat said there could be no peaceful coexistence if people looked at those at the other political side as an enemy instead of a competitor, as an enemy was often targeted for elimination instead of fair competition.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Middle-class-prefers-a-controlled-democracy-30258887.html


-- The Nation 2015-04-28

[BSJ]

He had my interest till "Nidhi said Thailand was close to consolidating its democratic gains in 2014 but the coup shattered that." I call this BS!

[PaullyW]

<quote>'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'</quote>

Yes, all 15 of them. Thailand has no real "middle-class" to speak of. There are the poor, working poor and psuedo-elite.

[halloween]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

[canuckamuck]

Morality and ethics for all but a few

[jerojero]

What middle class? Those working two jobs so they can own a car and an iPhone?

[ChrisY1]

Sounds as though it will be a "Claytons" government, managed by the generals..........much the same as it is now!

[Plutojames88]

Too late.

The war has begun.

That Charter was a declaration of war.

America now will make sure the Chinese don't get Thailand .

To do that you know what must happen.

This military is doomed

[TheAppletons]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

"If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy absolute ruler allowing criminals the military and the elite class to rape the country."

Fixed that for ya.

[Ricardo]

Too late.

The war has begun.

That Charter was a declaration of war.

America now will make sure the Chinese don't get Thailand .

To do that you know what must happen.

This military is doomed

Invasion ?

So when do the Marines arrive ... the young ladies of Pattaya are quivering in anticipation to know !

[smedly]

'Middle-class prefers a controlled democracy'

what on earth is this nonsense, democracy is controlled - it is run by a set of rules with agencies in place to enforce them and prevent abuse

[Snig27]

The "educated" classes in the country are far dimmer than those they seek to control.

Sadly this charter is a recipe for disaster.

[Thakkar]

Controlled democracy sounds about as authentic, exciting and fun as a controlled orgasm.

T

Edited April 28, 2015 by Thakkar

[KarenBravo]

A "controlled democracy" is not a democracy.

Of course, Thais don't understand that.

[sandrew33]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

[samsensam]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

[kleelof]

SOunds like Thailand is learning a lot from their new buddies the Chinese.

[Roadman]

He had my interest till "Nidhi said Thailand was close to consolidating its democratic gains in 2014 but the coup shattered that." I call this BS!

I did not even get to that piece of BS due to the previous BS being this:-

Thailand had failed to transition into becoming a full-fledged democracy as many people, particularly the middle and upper middle class, were disillusioned by the fact that their party of choice kept losing elections

Try that Thailand had not transitioned into a full fledged democracy and the middle classes were disillusioned due to democracy yet again being high jacked by a bunch of Shinawatra / Pheu Thai crims who not only had the cops, AG and DSI in their back pocket, who not only were threatening judges and killing citizens with no consequence, but were also trying to illegally past bills to clear their peoples court convicted crim.

What the article does show yet again is:-

1) People who spend their lives in universities opinions are about as useful as tits on a bull, and

2) If it is useful then the gulf of opinion/knowledge between factions in Thailand is that wide, and given that since 1932 everything has failed be it coup or attempted democratic principle, then drastic forced controlled change is the best hope for any future democratic process. And during that time of process educate the lower socio economic classes and destroy patronage.

[kjun12]

The Thai middle class is group that is "used" by the upper class. This so called middle class is comprised of people who are less smart than those they believe to be the unintelligent lower class citizens of Thailand, namely the Red Shirts.They were used as fodder to support the demonstrations which allowed the military to take control of the country in order to give the upper class the control they cannot achieve through elections. The upper class are crafty and evil bastards just as they are in almost every country in the world. Especially the USA.

[Roadman]

For those stating there is no middle class in Thailand, you need to get out more.

I agree it's not huge and it's primarily (but not solely) Bangkok based but there's a middle class.

totally agree.

i have a feeling that most foreigners here only ever know and have contact with low class, uneducated thais and know nothing about thai society beyond that limited view

my thai friends are almost all well educated; chula, thammasat, ABAC, many have studied masters abroad or have travelled abroad, most can speak English to a proficient level. they are professionals or have middle/senior management positions or own their own business. they care about the education of their children and are prepared to pay to send them to a good school.

they are what we in the west would describe as middle class

Agree also. My family (Isaan city people in the heart of old (( the dictatorial Shinawatra brain wash banners are gone)) Red country) and all they associate are with are all middle class. As are the majority of all those around them in those cities...those huge shopping centres in Nakhon Nowhere don't survive on the odd falang.

[mikiea]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

dude what are you smoking ? the only rape of this country has occurred when something was taken by force , that is what rape is , you see it , you want it , you take it . ehhh...... kinda like a coup .

[sandrew33]

Try that Thailand had not transitioned into a full fledged democracy and the middle classes were disillusioned due to democracy yet again being high jacked by a bunch of Shinawatra / Pheu Thai crims who not only had the cops, AG and DSI in their back pocket, who not only were threatening judges and killing citizens with no consequence, but were also trying to illegally past bills to clear their peoples court convicted crim.

What the article does show yet again is:-

1) People who spend their lives in universities opinions are about as useful as tits on a bull, and

2) If it is useful then the gulf of opinion/knowledge between factions in Thailand is that wide, and given that since 1932 everything has failed be it coup or attempted democratic principle, then drastic forced controlled change is the best hope for any future democratic process. And during that time of process educate the lower socio economic classes and destroy patronage.

The problem is Roadman that the change being forced seems more aimed at entrenching an old regime/ruling class rather than at fundamental change in society.

As such its change entirely against the interests of the largest group of the population. And it's driven by people who absolutely believe they are "Khun Dii" and that they know best. History suggests that eventually such styles of government either give up power or have it forcibly removed from them.

So while I agree that the Democratic government wasn't very democratic because the institutions were corrupted, I'm entirely unconvinced that change will occur under a junta that controls every institution (which by definition makes them corrupted).

Edited April 28, 2015 by sandrew33

[aripengu]

More conflict to come. No dialogue. New constitution drafted by some pseudo enlightened goonies that live in the past. What could possibly go wrong?

The people in those unelected bodies are not less corrupt than the elected politicians. TIT

This is still a big power struggle between clans, constitutions are like toilet paper to them, democracy is only good if their side wins.

The lack of understanding of the principles of Democracy by those in conflict is the root of the problem. Follow the laws without bombs, coups, mobs, stop trying to take shortcuts that will only lead to more suffering.

[sandrew33]

More conflict to come. No dialogue. New constitution drafted by some pseudo enlightened goonies that live in the past. What could possibly go wrong?

The people in those unelected bodies are not less corrupt than the elected politicians. TIT

This is still a big power struggle between clans, constitutions are like toilet paper to them, democracy is only good if their side wins.

The lack of understanding of the principles of Democracy by those in conflict is the root of the problem. Follow the laws without bombs, coups, mobs, stop trying to take shortcuts that will only lead to more suffering.

It's seems a fundamental principle of democracy that all are equal before the law.

While you have "educated people" enshrining their superiority under the law - based on the notion that its warranted because they are better - you can't have democracy.

Edited April 28, 2015 by sandrew33

[Laughing Gravy]

Another spewing of drivel. These people just don't get it. You have democracy or non democracy, Not controlled democracy, not selective democracy. It democracy or not at all. It seems a daily occurrence that the media (Nation) from the government are telling people what is to come. This article is laughable.

[halloween]

"...morality and ethics had become a new criteria in justifying the weakening of democracy under the new charter. "

If Thai politicians can't exhibit morality and ethics, they will be forced upon them. Sounds better to me than a strong democracy allowing criminals to rape the country.

dude what are you smoking ? the only rape of this country has occurred when something was taken by force , that is what rape is , you see it , you want it , you take it . ehhh...... kinda like a coup .

I used rape because the incompetent and corrupt criminals running this country were very happy with the situation while many of those who elected them were being f##ked big time. You have to remember that rape not only covers forcible intercourse, it also includes abuse of those unconscious, insensible or stupefied.

[Docno]

The Thai middle class is group that is "used" by the upper class. This so called middle class is comprised of people who are less smart than those they believe to be the unintelligent lower class citizens of Thailand, namely the Red Shirts.They were used as fodder to support the demonstrations which allowed the military to take control of the country in order to give the upper class the control they cannot achieve through elections. The upper class are crafty and evil bastards just as they are in almost every country in the world. Especially the USA.

I think there's a grain of truth to what you say. The elites who have been running this country since year zero are not stupid. They know that when a middle class emerges in a country, it is often lined up against the old elite because the elite represents an exclusionary ceiling... just look at the American and French Revolutions. They were middle class revolutions (though the poor were recruited for the front lines). In Thailand's case, the elite was able to convince the middle class that their interests were aligned in opposition to the great unwashed masses and the bogeyman, Thaksin, prodding them on like a herd of dim-witted buffalo.They've bought into the idea that, arm in arm with the elite, only they can take care of the country and protect the royal institution. And so democracy must be controlled...

Edited April 28, 2015 by Docno

[Godders]

Well, to borrow from Mandy Rice-Davies, they would say that, wouldn't they.

It will take, as it always does, action by the labouring classes to turn "quasi" democracy into the real thing. And by the real thing, I don't mean "Thai-style" democracy of the kind which is being hatched by the unelected elite currently running the show.

[halloween]

The Thai middle class is group that is "used" by the upper class. This so called middle class is comprised of people who are less smart than those they believe to be the unintelligent lower class citizens of Thailand, namely the Red Shirts.They were used as fodder to support the demonstrations which allowed the military to take control of the country in order to give the upper class the control they cannot achieve through elections. The upper class are crafty and evil bastards just as they are in almost every country in the world. Especially the USA.

I think there's a grain of truth to what you say. The elites who have been running this country since year zero are not stupid. They know that when a middle class emerges in a country, it is often lined up against the old elite because the elite represents an exclusionary ceiling... just look at the American and French Revolutions. They were middle class revolutions (though the poor were recruited for the front lines). In Thailand's case, the elite was able to convince the middle class that their interests were aligned in opposition to the great unwashed masses and the bogeyman, Thaksin, prodding them on like a herd of dim-witted buffalo.They've bought into the idea that, arm in arm with the elite, only they can take care of the country and protect the royal institution. And so democracy must be controlled...

So no chance that they just get peeved at seeing their tax money being wasted and stolen by elected criminals? Or that having those criminals propose granting themselves an amnesty to cover their crimes, past and still being committed, was just too corrupt?

[Docno]

He had my interest till "Nidhi said Thailand was close to consolidating its democratic gains in 2014 but the coup shattered that." I call this BS!

Democracy is a process, a system, that gives the people the right and power to choose the leaders who govern them. It is not an outcome. Real democracy guarantees that the majority of people will get the government they want. It does not guarantee that the government they choose will be effective or corruption free. [This is a key reason why the leadership of Singapore has been reluctant to fully democratise the system there]. So may not like the government that was in power before the coup, but that's the cost of democracy - not everyone gets what they want. And that's why the middle class wants their so-called 'controlled democracy' ... they want to make sure they can get someone they want.