Minimum wage 'not enough for daily expenses'

[Thai at Heart]

Min wage rises will never be enough since inflation will rise in kind. Suggest those folks who struggle sell that face-gaining truck and cut back on cigs & alcohol. 15k is plenty for a standard Thai family living within their means.

Plenty for a Thai family?

Could you actually be any more patronising? Why would this be insufficient for a farang family? Do Thais have lesser need than a farang family.

So lets look at it. A family of 4 on 15k?

Rent 4k. Food, minimum 100 baht per day per person. 400*30=12000

Ah, thanks for coming. Obviously with education they could manage to live on 15k by not eating. Obviously they need to be educated in starvation.

Plenty. What world are you living in.

I do believe a struggling family like this in a developed world would have both parents working to support the family...

Well, that is a rather optimistic ideal isn't it. Is an employer going to pay a single parent double? Of course, the maths could be done to calculate with 3 consumers, which doesn't really produce any more favorable numbers anyway. Fact is, Thailand has too many lowly qualified workers with long term low wages. But to be frank I would say, that bringing up two children on 30k per month isn't exactly a laugh a minute either.

[micmichd]

Same old story. I earn minimum wages. I have wife and children to feed. Cost of living is too high to support my wife and kids on minimum wages.

Yes we all know. But why are you still earning minimum wages? Why do you not aquire more knowledge or skill to be productive and climb the wage ladder?

And why do you get married and have children when you can barely support just yourself?

Should society be responsible for you and your foolish acts?

This is such a horrible and arrogant way of thinking. And I'm shocked that it has the most likes at this topic. Wait, this is Thaivisa, home of the ignorant and arrogant, so I'm not really shocked.

Yeah, like it's just too easy to acquire the skills and climb the wage ladder, keep on dreaming. And blaming someone because he got married and had children?

Again, it is just sick to blame the common working man and woman. The government should be blamed, because they don't provide better minimum wages and social security.

The main factor for the huge sex industry is low wages and lack of social security. If I was a Thai who had to take care of his/her elderly parents who have no social security, instead of working at 7-11 for minimum wage, I'd have probably become a sex worker as well.

For many people Thailand is synonymous with sex tourism. If government really wants to improve this bad image, they should start by increasing minimum wage and provide social security for retired people.

Same root cause of many problems - money. For instance, why would anyone in their right mind want to become a policeman for app 7000 baht a month, and have to buy their uniform, gun, and motor bike out of that? Simples! The amount of money they can make from corruption compensates them for their low basic wage. And once they get used to the extra income, they find it very difficult to do without it.

As you quite rightly say, this is also a factor in the sex industry. I know a certain bar girl who was in tears because she wanted to be back home with her weeks old baby. She had been sending money home to her parents, but of course once she became pregnant that source of income stopped, and she went home to Esan to have the baby. In a matter of days, she was forced by her parents to leave the baby with them, and move back to B/K to resume her former occupation in order to send money back to her parents. And I am pretty sure that this is not an isolated case.

And actually, the government do provide for their elderly/retired people - my girlfriend's elderly mother gets the princely sum of 500 baht a month to buy food, and pay all the bills!

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...

Might be some horny Farang who didn't like condoms and then did the runner...

[micmichd]

Don't put the blame for misallocation of labour on the working class, it's the management's task.

[trogers]

Same old story. I earn minimum wages. I have wife and children to feed. Cost of living is too high to support my wife and kids on minimum wages.

Yes we all know. But why are you still earning minimum wages? Why do you not aquire more knowledge or skill to be productive and climb the wage ladder?

And why do you get married and have children when you can barely support just yourself?

Should society be responsible for you and your foolish acts?

This is such a horrible and arrogant way of thinking. And I'm shocked that it has the most likes at this topic. Wait, this is Thaivisa, home of the ignorant and arrogant, so I'm not really shocked.

Yeah, like it's just too easy to acquire the skills and climb the wage ladder, keep on dreaming. And blaming someone because he got married and had children?

Again, it is just sick to blame the common working man and woman. The government should be blamed, because they don't provide better minimum wages and social security.

The main factor for the huge sex industry is low wages and lack of social security. If I was a Thai who had to take care of his/her elderly parents who have no social security, instead of working at 7-11 for minimum wage, I'd have probably become a sex worker as well.

For many people Thailand is synonymous with sex tourism. If government really wants to improve this bad image, they should start by increasing minimum wage and provide social security for retired people.

Same root cause of many problems - money. For instance, why would anyone in their right mind want to become a policeman for app 7000 baht a month, and have to buy their uniform, gun, and motor bike out of that? Simples! The amount of money they can make from corruption compensates them for their low basic wage. And once they get used to the extra income, they find it very difficult to do without it.

As you quite rightly say, this is also a factor in the sex industry. I know a certain bar girl who was in tears because she wanted to be back home with her weeks old baby. She had been sending money home to her parents, but of course once she became pregnant that source of income stopped, and she went home to Esan to have the baby. In a matter of days, she was forced by her parents to leave the baby with them, and move back to B/K to resume her former occupation in order to send money back to her parents. And I am pretty sure that this is not an isolated case.

And actually, the government do provide for their elderly/retired people - my girlfriend's elderly mother gets the princely sum of 500 baht a month to buy food, and pay all the bills!

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...

Do you actually live in Thailand, or just believe the "Amazing Thailand" B/S? This is not the UK where they have an agency called the CSA to chase up the payments by absent fathers!

Then they should elect laws and set one up. We don't use chemo to clear pimples.

[sambum]

In reply to micmichd Post #302 dated today:-

"Might be some horny Farang who didn't like condoms and then did the runner..."

Quite possibly/probably, but that doesn't alter the fact that in Thailand, whether the father be Farang or Thai, there is not much chance of the mother getting any financial or other kind of assistance if the father decides not to "cooperate".

[sambum]

Same old story. I earn minimum wages. I have wife and children to feed. Cost of living is too high to support my wife and kids on minimum wages.

Yes we all know. But why are you still earning minimum wages? Why do you not aquire more knowledge or skill to be productive and climb the wage ladder?

And why do you get married and have children when you can barely support just yourself?

Should society be responsible for you and your foolish acts?

This is such a horrible and arrogant way of thinking. And I'm shocked that it has the most likes at this topic. Wait, this is Thaivisa, home of the ignorant and arrogant, so I'm not really shocked.

Yeah, like it's just too easy to acquire the skills and climb the wage ladder, keep on dreaming. And blaming someone because he got married and had children?

Again, it is just sick to blame the common working man and woman. The government should be blamed, because they don't provide better minimum wages and social security.

The main factor for the huge sex industry is low wages and lack of social security. If I was a Thai who had to take care of his/her elderly parents who have no social security, instead of working at 7-11 for minimum wage, I'd have probably become a sex worker as well.

For many people Thailand is synonymous with sex tourism. If government really wants to improve this bad image, they should start by increasing minimum wage and provide social security for retired people.

Same root cause of many problems - money. For instance, why would anyone in their right mind want to become a policeman for app 7000 baht a month, and have to buy their uniform, gun, and motor bike out of that? Simples! The amount of money they can make from corruption compensates them for their low basic wage. And once they get used to the extra income, they find it very difficult to do without it.

As you quite rightly say, this is also a factor in the sex industry. I know a certain bar girl who was in tears because she wanted to be back home with her weeks old baby. She had been sending money home to her parents, but of course once she became pregnant that source of income stopped, and she went home to Esan to have the baby. In a matter of days, she was forced by her parents to leave the baby with them, and move back to B/K to resume her former occupation in order to send money back to her parents. And I am pretty sure that this is not an isolated case.

And actually, the government do provide for their elderly/retired people - my girlfriend's elderly mother gets the princely sum of 500 baht a month to buy food, and pay all the bills!

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...

Do you actually live in Thailand, or just believe the "Amazing Thailand" B/S? This is not the UK where they have an agency called the CSA to chase up the payments by absent fathers!

Then they should elect laws and set one up. We don't use chemo to clear pimples.

The point is - there isn't.

[trogers]

Same old story. I earn minimum wages. I have wife and children to feed. Cost of living is too high to support my wife and kids on minimum wages.

Yes we all know. But why are you still earning minimum wages? Why do you not aquire more knowledge or skill to be productive and climb the wage ladder?

And why do you get married and have children when you can barely support just yourself?

Should society be responsible for you and your foolish acts?

This is such a horrible and arrogant way of thinking. And I'm shocked that it has the most likes at this topic. Wait, this is Thaivisa, home of the ignorant and arrogant, so I'm not really shocked.

Yeah, like it's just too easy to acquire the skills and climb the wage ladder, keep on dreaming. And blaming someone because he got married and had children?

Again, it is just sick to blame the common working man and woman. The government should be blamed, because they don't provide better minimum wages and social security.

The main factor for the huge sex industry is low wages and lack of social security. If I was a Thai who had to take care of his/her elderly parents who have no social security, instead of working at 7-11 for minimum wage, I'd have probably become a sex worker as well.

For many people Thailand is synonymous with sex tourism. If government really wants to improve this bad image, they should start by increasing minimum wage and provide social security for retired people.

Same root cause of many problems - money. For instance, why would anyone in their right mind want to become a policeman for app 7000 baht a month, and have to buy their uniform, gun, and motor bike out of that? Simples! The amount of money they can make from corruption compensates them for their low basic wage. And once they get used to the extra income, they find it very difficult to do without it.

As you quite rightly say, this is also a factor in the sex industry. I know a certain bar girl who was in tears because she wanted to be back home with her weeks old baby. She had been sending money home to her parents, but of course once she became pregnant that source of income stopped, and she went home to Esan to have the baby. In a matter of days, she was forced by her parents to leave the baby with them, and move back to B/K to resume her former occupation in order to send money back to her parents. And I am pretty sure that this is not an isolated case.

And actually, the government do provide for their elderly/retired people - my girlfriend's elderly mother gets the princely sum of 500 baht a month to buy food, and pay all the bills!

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...

Do you actually live in Thailand, or just believe the "Amazing Thailand" B/S? This is not the UK where they have an agency called the CSA to chase up the payments by absent fathers!

Then they should elect laws and set one up. We don't use chemo to clear pimples.

The point is - there isn't.

Then this issue should be raised and acted on, and not using this issue as a reason to adjust the minimum wage.

[sambum]

In reply to trogers Post #307 dated today :-

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...


Do you actually live in Thailand, or just believe the "Amazing Thailand" B/S? This is not the UK where they have an agency called the CSA to chase up the payments by absent fathers!

Then they should elect laws and set one up. We don't use chemo to clear pimples.

The point is - there isn't.

Then this issue should be raised and acted on, and not using this issue as a reason to adjust the minimum wage.

Once again, the point is - there isn't, and until there is, there is every reason to use this issue as a reason to "adjust" (Do you not mean "increase"?) the minimum wage. If the minimum wage was increased (and living costs remained stable) then the girl would not have to work in the sex industry in order to make enough money to help support her parents.

[trogers]

In reply to trogers Post #307 dated today :-

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...

Do you actually live in Thailand, or just believe the "Amazing Thailand" B/S? This is not the UK where they have an agency called the CSA to chase up the payments by absent fathers!

Then they should elect laws and set one up. We don't use chemo to clear pimples.

The point is - there isn't.

Then this issue should be raised and acted on, and not using this issue as a reason to adjust the minimum wage.

Once again, the point is - there isn't, and until there is, there is every reason to use this issue as a reason to "adjust" (Do you not mean "increase"?) the minimum wage. If the minimum wage was increased (and living costs remained stable) then the girl would not have to work in the sex industry in order to make enough money to help support her parents.

So based on calculations shown, the minimum wage should be 500-600 baht, for a single parent to support herself and her child.

Assuming 50,000 sex workers nationwide, we would use the plight of 50,000 to make a policy for 5m workers...

And perhaps a few years from now, we say, it's now a single mother with 2 children and adjust wage to 800-900.

Edited May 4, 2015 by trogers

[micmichd]

In reply to micmichd Post #302 dated today:-

"Might be some horny Farang who didn't like condoms and then did the runner..."

Quite possibly/probably, but that doesn't alter the fact that in Thailand, whether the father be Farang or Thai, there is not much chance of the mother getting any financial or other kind of assistance if the father decides not to "cooperate".

Then they should change laws, maybe set up an International Social Charter or something like that.

Simply stating:

If a father's income is above minimum wage then he shall support his children. Else his government shall support his children, maybe get back transfers from the father later on if his income increases.

This would imply some transfers from Farang governments to Thai families, but imho that would only be fair.

Edited May 4, 2015 by micmichd

[trogers]

In reply to micmichd Post #302 dated today:-

"Might be some horny Farang who didn't like condoms and then did the runner..."

Quite possibly/probably, but that doesn't alter the fact that in Thailand, whether the father be Farang or Thai, there is not much chance of the mother getting any financial or other kind of assistance if the father decides not to "cooperate".

Then they should change laws, maybe set up an International Social Charter or something like that.

Simply stating:

If a father's income is above minimum wage then he shall support his children. Else his government shall support his children, maybe get back transfers from the father later on if his income increases.

This would imply some transfers from Farang governments to Thai families, but imho that would only be fair.

In some developed countries, even aged parents can sue for support from their children.

[trogers]

I do love this quotation:

What do you call a person whose labour is worth less than the minimum wage? Permanently Unemployed!

[micmichd]

Still?

Anyway, guess children are always the first in line.

Maybe Thai bargirls should check identities from their customers and possible fathers. Procedures for suing child assistance should be handled in a way so that no one loses face. Guess with modern DNA technologies that should be possible, you only need some hairs from a comb.

[mike324]

Productivity sounds good, but it's not that easy.

What about the productivity of Thai women, measured in the amount of children they raise to keep the supply of fresh labour force in the next generation?

Capitalist economy would say "That's not our problem", but that's not true.

Fact is: Thailand is already running short of labour force now, in another thread they are already complaining about this.

Get used to the idea that you need an international welfare system to cope with this (not so new) challenge, and the days of simply taking other nations' women or land are over.

Thailand isn't facing a shortage of labour, Thailand is facing a misallocation of labour.

The fact that there are so many people on minimum wage and there is a massive supply of low wage labour means that employers can continually supply labour from overseas to fill the gaps thus negating wage pressure to move the market. Hence, why now burmese are starting to be found in restaurants where they were only in menial labour. Beyond that, there is a lack of competition in so many markets that Homepro can continue to have hundreds of peopel standing around doing nothing, while in the rest of the world online shoppping has moved these people into other jobs.

The market here is very sticky, and full of inefficiences, but there is no shortage of labour, just a large percentage of people in jobs that are not very productive. Obviously, if the food manufacturers had no access to supply of labour from overseas, wages and conditions would improve. Basic economics.

Obviously you don't hire or run a business in Thailand to make such a bold statement. The fact that there is so many foreign workers in Thailand IS because there is a shortage of labors hence workers from neighboring countries are pouring in to find jobs. There is no massive supply of low wage labor, if you can find it you will make nice profit being an agent sending these massive supply of labors to big industries around Thailand. Basic supply and demand, even illegal workers get the minimum wage around Bangkok BECAUSE of the shortage of labor.

Shopping only makes up a tiny percentage of labors compare to the industrial sector. Back in the 90s and early 2000s I still remember there was one waiter to a table, nowadays its more one waiter to 4-5 tables and you have to call to get the waiters attention.

I do agree with the inefficiencies, but what can you do right? The education is only so high and sliding backwards as we speak while Thailand's neighbors are catching up fast.

[sambum]

In reply to trogers Post #307 dated today :-

Was hoping to read just a mention on the father of the baby...

Do you actually live in Thailand, or just believe the "Amazing Thailand" B/S? This is not the UK where they have an agency called the CSA to chase up the payments by absent fathers!

Then they should elect laws and set one up. We don't use chemo to clear pimples.

The point is - there isn't.

Then this issue should be raised and acted on, and not using this issue as a reason to adjust the minimum wage.

Once again, the point is - there isn't, and until there is, there is every reason to use this issue as a reason to "adjust" (Do you not mean "increase"?) the minimum wage. If the minimum wage was increased (and living costs remained stable) then the girl would not have to work in the sex industry in order to make enough money to help support her parents.

So based on calculations shown, the minimum wage should be 500-600 baht, for a single parent to support herself and her child.

Assuming 50,000 sex workers nationwide, we would use the plight of 50,000 to make a policy for 5m workers...

And perhaps a few years from now, we say, it's now a single mother with 2 children and adjust wage to 800-900.

"Calculations shown?" Where? "Minimum wage 500 - 600 baht" Per hour? Per day? We should use the plight of ALL workers to set a policy for a minimum wage, and the fact that there are some people who become "sex workers" because the current minimum wage is not enough to support themselves and help their family speaks for itself.

Edited May 4, 2015 by sambum

[Thai at Heart]

Productivity sounds good, but it's not that easy.

What about the productivity of Thai women, measured in the amount of children they raise to keep the supply of fresh labour force in the next generation?

Capitalist economy would say "That's not our problem", but that's not true.

Fact is: Thailand is already running short of labour force now, in another thread they are already complaining about this.

Get used to the idea that you need an international welfare system to cope with this (not so new) challenge, and the days of simply taking other nations' women or land are over.

Thailand isn't facing a shortage of labour, Thailand is facing a misallocation of labour.

The fact that there are so many people on minimum wage and there is a massive supply of low wage labour means that employers can continually supply labour from overseas to fill the gaps thus negating wage pressure to move the market. Hence, why now burmese are starting to be found in restaurants where they were only in menial labour. Beyond that, there is a lack of competition in so many markets that Homepro can continue to have hundreds of peopel standing around doing nothing, while in the rest of the world online shoppping has moved these people into other jobs.

The market here is very sticky, and full of inefficiences, but there is no shortage of labour, just a large percentage of people in jobs that are not very productive. Obviously, if the food manufacturers had no access to supply of labour from overseas, wages and conditions would improve. Basic economics.

Obviously you don't hire or run a business in Thailand to make such a bold statement. The fact that there is so many foreign workers in Thailand IS because there is a shortage of labors hence workers from neighboring countries are pouring in to find jobs. There is no massive supply of low wage labor, if you can find it you will make nice profit being an agent sending these massive supply of labors to big industries around Thailand. Basic supply and demand, even illegal workers get the minimum wage around Bangkok BECAUSE of the shortage of labor.

Shopping only makes up a tiny percentage of labors compare to the industrial sector. Back in the 90s and early 2000s I still remember there was one waiter to a table, nowadays its more one waiter to 4-5 tables and you have to call to get the waiters attention.

I do agree with the inefficiencies, but what can you do right? The education is only so high and sliding backwards as we speak while Thailand's neighbors are catching up fast.

Have run several businesses. We were in a part of the world with little immigrant labour and so to get labour we paid way above minimum to keep and train our people.

The Thai Chinese partner in Bangkok wanted us to pay immigrants. Our global SRP wouldn't let us do it.

The system needs the pressure to reallocate people. Having this massive supply of immigrants short circuits the system. By now, maybe working in a food factory might be worth 600or 700 a day, and the company would have to use more mechanisation instead of manual labour.

You think the processing lines in Thailand have as much mechanisation as the West. There is plenty of efficiency to be gained if companies are forced to invest but at 300 a day, nothing moves.

Companies are setting up in Thailand and filling up with immigrant labour from day one. I have seen it first hand.

[smotherb]

Yeah, all of you taking the piss out of the Thais; stop and think. Does Thailand have strict certification regulation for workers or standard construction procedures all regulated by the government, and are they being enforced? I'll bet your home country does and enforces them too.

Have you ever seen a ridiculously stupid job mistake done in your home country? I sure have in the US.

I cannot tell you how many poor jobs I saw when building duplexes in Florida. However, let's talk about big projects, with more regulation. In my bachelor program, I worked for a Construction Inspection firm. I was on a 15 story Hotel project downtown and a 180-unit multi-story Apartment Complex in the burbs.

At the hotel, I was taking core samples of the flooring. The requirement was 3000psi; the reality was 1900psi average on the third floor. They had been forgotten to call us when the floors were ready for sampling. The bad part, they had already finished the fourth and fifth floors. Yes, you guessed it, neither the fourth nor fifth floors met requirement.

I reported the problem to my boss and he took over the Hotel job. I was transferred to the Apartment complex job promoted from core sampling engineer, to site inspection engineer--beginning to think I should be running a train.

The Apartment project had been going on for some four months; about 25% of the project was completed. While familiarizing myself with this new job, I was looking over the blueprints. I found three already drilled caissons in the wrong locations. It seems, they had been working on the wrong set of plans. That Apartment design was a popular one for the builder, so all site drawings were very much alike, except for changes in access, zoning, or topography.

The building at the Apartment complex continued with the correct drawings and I got a nice letter of commendation, and a $1,000 award.

The Hotel was completed without any delay in construction and still stands today.

My boss said he was real proud of me. I used to see him on the way to work as he drove his new Oldsmobile Starfire convertible from his new Colonial-style home in the country.

[trogers]

Yeah, all of you taking the piss out of the Thais; stop and think. Does Thailand have strict certification regulation for workers or standard construction procedures all regulated by the government, and are they being enforced? I'll bet your home country does and enforces them too.

Have you ever seen a ridiculously stupid job mistake done in your home country? I sure have in the US.

I cannot tell you how many poor jobs I saw when building duplexes in Florida. However, let's talk about big projects, with more regulation. In my bachelor program, I worked for a Construction Inspection firm. I was on a 15 story Hotel project downtown and a 180-unit multi-story Apartment Complex in the burbs.

At the hotel, I was taking core samples of the flooring. The requirement was 3000psi; the reality was 1900psi average on the third floor. They had been forgotten to call us when the floors were ready for sampling. The bad part, they had already finished the fourth and fifth floors. Yes, you guessed it, neither the fourth nor fifth floors met requirement.

I reported the problem to my boss and he took over the Hotel job. I was transferred to the Apartment complex job promoted from core sampling engineer, to site inspection engineer--beginning to think I should be running a train.

The Apartment project had been going on for some four months; about 25% of the project was completed. While familiarizing myself with this new job, I was looking over the blueprints. I found three already drilled caissons in the wrong locations. It seems, they had been working on the wrong set of plans. That Apartment design was a popular one for the builder, so all site drawings were very much alike, except for changes in access, zoning, or topography.

The building at the Apartment complex continued with the correct drawings and I got a nice letter of commendation, and a $1,000 award.

The Hotel was completed without any delay in construction and still stands today.

My boss said he was real proud of me. I used to see him on the way to work as he drove his new Oldsmobile Starfire convertible from his new Colonial-style home in the country.

Those experienced old hands have probably retired here in Thailand since the downturn of 2008 ?

[sirineou]

Read this article and post your views:

http://www.thesmartlocal.com/read/minimum-wage-in-singapore

Thank you for taking the time to post this article, it is nice to see people taking this thread seriously and providing pertinent input rather than bickering about " the price of tea in China"

Unfortunately IMO it is full of nonsense

First argument against is that countries with minimum wages have high unemployment rates,

if you look at the chart provided in the article, Greece has the lowest minimum wage with in the countries that have a min wage, yet has the highest unemployment rate Perhaps they need to raise their min wage to that of Luxembourger and cut their unemployment to 1/4th,

could it be that there are other factors involved affecting the unemployment rate?

second it says,

Problem #2: Minimum Wage limits future wage increase

This of course is nonsensical, a min wage that is structured not to include cost of living increases might do that but what about that's a structural problem, not a problem with the min wage

How would not having a min wage create an environment where workers get cost of living pay increases? if it did we would not even be talking about a min wage or have a need for it.

That is why we are arguing min wage increases.

The problem is not with the min wage, the problem is with it's opponents who block increases.

Problem #3: Minimum Wage becomes Maximum Wage

this is so absurd

it says something like it is "sticky" as if that stickiness is build in to a min wage,

again if it is "sticky" it is only because of it's opponents

is it no having a min wage sticky also?

or it' says "Their employers may not be willing to send them for training so they can earn more "

Nonsense, an employer will not train his employers and become unproductive and or un-competitive

because he pays min wage to his employees? but if he paid them less, he would train them and then pay them more?

Summarising it all up

aside from the misspelling of the word,

it strings a number of incomprehensible graphics non of which supports the assertion that workers would be better off with out a min wage

[rufanuf]

Interesting thread. I haven't met hardly any "poor" Thai people, although there are an increasing number of them. What they lack in economic means they more than make up for in there own sense of spiritual well being. You cannot compare the economic situation of any particular Thai person to a westerner, anymore than you can compare Thailand's climatic, economic, religious or political past to a country in Europe or with a western style "democracy" (what a joke).

Historically most Thai's wanted for nothing, it's only been the adoption of western values both in econmics and politics that's begun breaking the country's social fabric down, as everyone starts measuring themselves against a number called "money".

You completely nail it here. I remember that in school we learned about the Third World and how poor the people of Thailand were. Well they weren't, pure propaganda, life was good and food was available and plentyful according to my wife. Village life was simple but with a proper standard of living. People were happy.

Western companies setting up shop here led to the introduction of credit. Gullible people were pushed in debt and became part of the true poverty cycle. Labor slaves, the corporate worlds wet dream.

Tell me who is wealthier, someone with a 100K salary and a 5 million baht household debt or someone with no debt and a 300 baht salary?

Don't know the answer. But the poorest would be having 50k debt on a 300 baht a day income.

The real issue here is political idealism. The concept of a minimum wage falls in the socialist camp. Most western democracies that started several hundred years ago are in decline now due to more and more socialist ideas being imposed on the masses, which in turn means higher taxes and then higher living costs. Its a vicious cycle of decline, as the "authorities" gradually take over your human right to choose. What socialists fail to understand about human nature is that you cannot impose a sense of social conscience via an administrative body (government), the fabric of society is made up of individual human beings. Thailand as it was even 50 years was a country whose social fabric was intact because it was "the land of milk and honey" In real terms Thai's wanted for nothing, there religious beliefs ensured that "want" was kept to a minimum. Now western ideas of consumption are taking over, of course then a minimum wage is require as now all of society is measured primarily by a number. The government will want votes, how to get them? Be a champion of the poor....come bearing gifts...no easier way to sway simple folk.

[trogers]

Interesting thread. I haven't met hardly any "poor" Thai people, although there are an increasing number of them. What they lack in economic means they more than make up for in there own sense of spiritual well being. You cannot compare the economic situation of any particular Thai person to a westerner, anymore than you can compare Thailand's climatic, economic, religious or political past to a country in Europe or with a western style "democracy" (what a joke).

Historically most Thai's wanted for nothing, it's only been the adoption of western values both in econmics and politics that's begun breaking the country's social fabric down, as everyone starts measuring themselves against a number called "money".

You completely nail it here. I remember that in school we learned about the Third World and how poor the people of Thailand were. Well they weren't, pure propaganda, life was good and food was available and plentyful according to my wife. Village life was simple but with a proper standard of living. People were happy.

Western companies setting up shop here led to the introduction of credit. Gullible people were pushed in debt and became part of the true poverty cycle. Labor slaves, the corporate worlds wet dream.

Tell me who is wealthier, someone with a 100K salary and a 5 million baht household debt or someone with no debt and a 300 baht salary?

Don't know the answer. But the poorest would be having 50k debt on a 300 baht a day income.

The real issue here is political idealism. The concept of a minimum wage falls in the socialist camp. Most western democracies that started several hundred years ago are in decline now due to more and more socialist ideas being imposed on the masses, which in turn means higher taxes and then higher living costs. Its a vicious cycle of decline, as the "authorities" gradually take over your human right to choose. What socialists fail to understand about human nature is that you cannot impose a sense of social conscience via an administrative body (government), the fabric of society is made up of individual human beings. Thailand as it was even 50 years was a country whose social fabric was intact because it was "the land of milk and honey" In real terms Thai's wanted for nothing, there religious beliefs ensured that "want" was kept to a minimum. Now western ideas of consumption are taking over, of course then a minimum wage is require as now all of society is measured primarily by a number. The government will want votes, how to get them? Be a champion of the poor....come bearing gifts...no easier way to sway simple folk.

Simply put - minimum wage set to follow inflation is like a dog chasing after its own tail.

[micmichd]

rufanuf:

What do you know about "socialist ideals" ?

Yes, maybe Thailand was a country of "milk and honey" once. India was such a country, too - before Imperialism messed it all up. The first famine in India happened after the British East India Company settled there.

Thailand's history is different, this country was never a colony. Of course Thailand is part of the World economy, ie everything is measured in money.

I'm not about being romantic, not about to warm up Indian wisdom or European moral philosophy.

Simply be aware that Capitalism relies on two principles:

1. that you can generate money from money (interest) and

2. that you can do this forever.

In Europe they've done this for a couple of 100 years. Interests accumulated and eventually exploded, that's why you have a permanent crisis in Europe.

Thailand's history of generating money from money is not that long, so Thai economy is not (yet) that messed up. It is actually comparatively ultra stable, you will rarely find an integral society like Thailand anywhere else.

There's another principle that Capitalism is based on, namely that each one should be responsible for him/herself. Capitalist ideology loves to define this as "freedom", the freedom of everybody against everybody else, and the freedom of entrepreneurs not to care about their past and future human capital - the families.

Nation building is not possible relying on Capitalistic principles only, a National government will have to set a frame for redistribution. Like it or not, without Socialist ideas every nation based on Capitalism is bound to fail.

Every policy that relies on immigrant labour should be aware that they might face the same dilemma: call for immigrant labour, and you get human beings that want to be near their families.

A workaround should be possible with the neighbouring countries, rather difficult with Farang countries that are up to date not able to solve the migration problem for themselves.

Edited May 5, 2015 by micmichd

[Thai at Heart]

Interesting thread. I haven't met hardly any "poor" Thai people, although there are an increasing number of them. What they lack in economic means they more than make up for in there own sense of spiritual well being. You cannot compare the economic situation of any particular Thai person to a westerner, anymore than you can compare Thailand's climatic, economic, religious or political past to a country in Europe or with a western style "democracy" (what a joke).

Historically most Thai's wanted for nothing, it's only been the adoption of western values both in econmics and politics that's begun breaking the country's social fabric down, as everyone starts measuring themselves against a number called "money".

You completely nail it here. I remember that in school we learned about the Third World and how poor the people of Thailand were. Well they weren't, pure propaganda, life was good and food was available and plentyful according to my wife. Village life was simple but with a proper standard of living. People were happy.

Western companies setting up shop here led to the introduction of credit. Gullible people were pushed in debt and became part of the true poverty cycle. Labor slaves, the corporate worlds wet dream.

Tell me who is wealthier, someone with a 100K salary and a 5 million baht household debt or someone with no debt and a 300 baht salary?

Don't know the answer. But the poorest would be having 50k debt on a 300 baht a day income.

The real issue here is political idealism. The concept of a minimum wage falls in the socialist camp. Most western democracies that started several hundred years ago are in decline now due to more and more socialist ideas being imposed on the masses, which in turn means higher taxes and then higher living costs. Its a vicious cycle of decline, as the "authorities" gradually take over your human right to choose. What socialists fail to understand about human nature is that you cannot impose a sense of social conscience via an administrative body (government), the fabric of society is made up of individual human beings. Thailand as it was even 50 years was a country whose social fabric was intact because it was "the land of milk and honey" In real terms Thai's wanted for nothing, there religious beliefs ensured that "want" was kept to a minimum. Now western ideas of consumption are taking over, of course then a minimum wage is require as now all of society is measured primarily by a number. The government will want votes, how to get them? Be a champion of the poor....come bearing gifts...no easier way to sway simple folk.

Oh the glorious irony.

Western production is in decline because MNC are chasing through the freedom of the market cheaper wages offshore and offshoring jobs galore at the expense of domestic higher paid labour.

On one hand you are claiming that the so called decline in the west is down to socialism whilst the very mechanism that is enabling this is capitalism. Which way would you like it to be?