Israel veterans group alleges Israeli misconduct in Gaza war

[Seastallion]

Jews are indigenous people in Israel.

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Some are, yes. The vast majority in Israel are not.

But what's that got to do with Israeli veterans alleging war crimes? Are you suggesting that indigenous people are above the law...or justified in defending their indigenous lands? That would make a handful of Israelis and the vast majority of Palestinians above the law or justified.....so you can't be suggesting that.

[Seastallion]

The IDF worked with commendable restraint what ever the anti semetic lefties and the Islamsist hate machine says. The whole of the Arab world could learn a lot to their benefit from the State of Israel and it's people.

If territorial expansion is what they want to learn how to do successfully, then yes, Israel would be a good example to follow.

What a twisted exaggeration. Israel gave up Gaza. Israel was attacked by several nations starting from her beginning. Let us know when Israel invades Poland. Bottom line is the Israel demonizers don't want Israel to exist in any borders. They're not fooling anybody.

Why do they hate Israel so much that they put so much energy into working against her existence?

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The day Israel goes back to the legal boundaries as given by the UN in 1948, is the day I'll stop criticising it.

I have to go one step further and say not only when they are back where they belong, but when they stop committing war crimes against their neighbours and apartheid against their non-Jew citizens.

Until then, I will criticise.

Don't fall for the fallacious whinging of "if you criticise Israel, you hate it and want it out of existence". That is a complete and utter fallacy and an appeal to pity.

BTW..."back where they belong" = 1948 borders, at worst pre-1967 borders...which also clearly implies that Israel should exist!

[Ulysses G.]

The IDF worked with commendable restraint what ever the anti semetic lefties and the Islamsist hate machine says. The whole of the Arab world could learn a lot to their benefit from the State of Israel and it's people.

If territorial expansion is what they want to learn how to do successfully, then yes, Israel would be a good example to follow.

What a twisted exaggeration. Israel gave up Gaza. Israel was attacked by several nations starting from her beginning. Let us know when Israel invades Poland. Bottom line is the Israel demonizers don't want Israel to exist in any borders. They're not fooling anybody.

Why do they hate Israel so much that they put so much energy into working against her existence?

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Zionists were actively attacking Palestinians and the British before Israel was created by the UN.

Please spare us your fake history. The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the early 1900s and the Jews barely fought back for decades, until they had no choice. When they did, they mostly won decisively. The Arabs also attacked the British, because they were stabbing both sides in the back.

[Ulysses G.]

Don't fall for the fallacious whinging of "if you criticise Israel, you hate it and want it out of existence". That is a complete and utter fallacy and an appeal to pity.

Nonsense. That is exactly how many of Israel's critics feel and they don't even try to hide it. Others DO try to hide it , in order to trick people into agreeing with their lies, but it is easy to read between the lines.. Of course it is not everyone. Everyone does not agree on anything.

[chuckd]

In certain peoples' eyes, two groups can do no wrong: Israeli Jews and White Cops.

...And in other people's eyes, these same two groups can do nothing right.

[Naam]

What a twisted exaggeration. Israel gave up Gaza. Israel was attacked by several nations starting from her beginning. Let us know when Israel invades Poland. Bottom line is the Israel demonizers don't want Israel to exist in any borders. They're not fooling anybody.

Why do they hate Israel so much that they put so much energy into working against her existence?

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Zionists were actively attacking Palestinians and the British before Israel was created by the UN.

Please spare us your fake history. The Palestinian Arabs started the violence in the early 1900s and the Jews barely fought back for decades, until they had no choice. When they did, they mostly won decisively. The Arabs also attacked the British, because they were stabbing both sides in the back.

how true UG! one of the worst hater of the Brits was the Ayrab terrorist Menachem Begin

Contacting the dormant Jewish underground, Irgun Zvai Leumi, Begin set about planning a Jewish uprising against the British authorities. This began in 1944, but increased in pace and scope immediately after World War II and continued until late 1947. Begin ordered many of the Irgun's operations, including the Akko prison breakout and the destruction of the central British administrative offices in the King David Hotel.

please keep up the good job shooting your own foot with ridiculous claims.

[Ulysses G.]

I know you are not a native speaker of English, so you might get one to explain to you that ALSO means BOTH sides hated the British for stabbing BOTH sides in the back and BOTH sides attacked them. I never hinted otherwise, so YOU are making the "ridiculous claims."

The Arabs also attacked the British, because they were stabbing both sides in the back.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

I know you are not a native speaker of English, so you might get one to explain to you that ALSO means BOTH sides hated the British for stabbing BOTH sides in the back and BOTH sides attacked them. I never hinted otherwise, so YOU are making the "ridiculous claims."

The Arabs also attacked the British, because they were stabbing both sides in the back.

Palestinian Arabs were carrying out attacks against Jewish communities in Palestine even before the Mandate for Palestine was assigned to Great Britain by the Allies at the San Remo Conference (April 1920) and endorsed by the League of Nations (July 1922. Systematic violence by the Arabs began in early 1920 with murderous assaults by groups of local Arabs against settlements in the north and by Muslim pilgrims against Jews in Jerusalem. In 1921, Arab rioters attacked Jews in Jaffa. The Hebron massacre was the killing of sixty-seven Jews (including 23 college students) on 24 August 1929 in Hebron - long before organized Jewish groups started fighting back.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Naam]

Jews are indigenous people in Israel.

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and the LORD himself issued and signed the chanote

[Naam]

I know you are not a native speaker of English, so you might get one to explain to you that ALSO means BOTH sides hated the British for stabbing BOTH sides in the back and BOTH sides attacked them. I never hinted otherwise, so YOU are making the "ridiculous claims."

The Arabs also attacked the British, because they were stabbing both sides in the back.

touché! i shot from the hip. but when you are right you are right

[Jingthing]

Jews are indigenous people in Israel.

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and the LORD himself issued and signed the chanote

The original Zionist movement which started long before 1948 was a POLITICAL movement and largely secular in nature. Other areas were seriously considered for a homeland for the Jewish people ... such as Uganda, obviously no religious or any other connection there. Obviously, Zionism is a complex layered subject and includes Zionists motivated by religion, and a small minority of ultra religious Jews are actually anti-Zionists. Jews are an ethno-religious group, always a tiny minority in the world. A group that has indeed in the diaspora said "Next Year in Jerusalem" throughout the ages. There is indeed a strong TRIBAL aspect of Jewish identity that exists independent of religious belief if any. (Not race ... tribe/ethnicity.) Still It cannot be denied that religion is a big part of the mix in regards to the conflict in general on both sides. Look at how ballistic the Muslim world goes over tiny issues related to the Dome of the Rock such as Jews wanting to pray there. Many Christians too are also very interested in the region, often for fundamentalist religious reasons. People try to compare this conflict to others and suggest equivalencies ... but it is really very, very UNIQUE.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

So do you think being the native people gives you the right to kick out everyone else who has lived there since?

Only if those people attack you and try to kick you out, which is exactly what happened with the Palestinians. THEY were the ones who started the violence and THEY were the ones that lost the wars that THEY started.

[thaibeachlovers]

I know you are not a native speaker of English, so you might get one to explain to you that ALSO means BOTH sides hated the British for stabbing BOTH sides in the back and BOTH sides attacked them. I never hinted otherwise, so YOU are making the "ridiculous claims."

The Arabs also attacked the British, because they were stabbing both sides in the back.

Up till WW2 the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians. During the war they enlisted many Zionists into the British army, and they became the core of the Israeli army after the war. There were many pro Zionists in the British government including Churchill.

It was only when a flood of refugees from Europe threatened to overwhelm Palestine that the Brits stopped unrestricted Jewish immigration to Palestine, and then the Zionist terror groups began to attack the Brits, with success when the Brits ran away.

[Ulysses G.]

Up till WW2 the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians.

No. They weren't. In fact, the British placed restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely.

The British actually limited the absorptive capacity of Palestine when, in 1921, Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine—some 35,000 square miles—to create a brand new Arab entity, Transjordan. As a consolation prize for the Hejaz and Arabia (which are both now Saudi Arabia) going to the Saud family, Churchill rewarded Sherif Hussein’s son Abdullah for his contribution to the war against Turkey by installing him as Transjordan’s emir.

The British went further and placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in what remained of Palestine, contradicting the provision of the Mandate (Article 6) stating that “the Administration of Palestine . . . ​shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency . . . ​close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes.” By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFmandate.html

[thaibeachlovers]

Up till WW2 the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians.

No. They weren't. In fact, the British placed restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely.

The British actually limited the absorptive capacity of Palestine when, in 1921, Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill severed nearly four-fifths of Palestine—some 35,000 square miles—to create a brand new Arab entity, Transjordan. As a consolation prize for the Hejaz and Arabia (which are both now Saudi Arabia) going to the Saud family, Churchill rewarded Sherif Hussein’s son Abdullah for his contribution to the war against Turkey by installing him as Transjordan’s emir.

The British went further and placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in what remained of Palestine, contradicting the provision of the Mandate (Article 6) stating that “the Administration of Palestine . . . ​shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency . . . ​close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes.” By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFmandate.html

restrictions on Jewish immigration while allowing Arabs to enter the country freely.

So they allowed Arabs to enter an Arab country while restricting foreign immigrants!

By 1949, the British had allotted 87,500 acres of the 187,500 acres of cultivable land to Arabs and only 4,250 acres to Jews.

Perhaps there were a lot more Arabs than Jews then.

Pre WW2 the Brits disarmed the Arabs and in WW2 they trained the Zionists to be an army.

[Ulysses G.]

There WAS NO Arab country there. The British ruled a geographical area called Palestine and Arab immigration was just as illegal as Jewish immigration. You claimed that the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians, but they only enforced the Immigration rules strictly on one group, so - again - you are incorrect.

[thaibeachlovers]

There WAS NO Arab country there. The British ruled a geographical area called Palestine and Arab immigration was just as illegal as Jewish immigration. You claimed that the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians, but they only enforced the Immigration rules strictly on one group, so - again - you are incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Please note the ARAB peasants revolt of 1834

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peasants%27_Revolt_of_1834_(Palestine)

[Ulysses G.]

Pre WW2 the Brits disarmed the Arabs and in WW2 they trained the Zionists to be an army.

More nonsense. During WW II, Palestinian Jews volunteered in large numbers to serve in the British Army to fight the Nazis. The British were not taking sides and there was also an Arab Brigade, who were also trained. As usual, the Jews educated themselves and learned to fight, but the Brits were not training them to fight Arabs. They were training them to help the Brits fight Nazis. .

A lot of Jews that had escaped the concentration camps became partisans engaged in guerrilla warfare and sabotage against the Nazis. They immigrated to Israel after the war, bring more fighting skills.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

There WAS NO Arab country there. The British ruled a geographical area called Palestine and Arab immigration was just as illegal as Jewish immigration. You claimed that the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians, but they only enforced the Immigration rules strictly on one group, so - again - you are incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Thanks for proving my point. There was NEVER an Independent Arab country called Palestine. From YOUR link:

The history of Palestine is the study of the past in the region of Palestine, generally defined as a geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River (where Israel is today), and various adjoining lands.

Your other link has no article attached. I'm not sure what your point is.

[JingerBen]

There WAS NO Arab country there. The British ruled a geographical area called Palestine and Arab immigration was just as illegal as Jewish immigration. You claimed that the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians, but they only enforced the Immigration rules strictly on one group, so - again - you are incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Thanks for proving my point. There was NEVER an Independent Arab country called Palestine. From YOUR link:

The history of Palestine is the study of the past in the region of Palestine, generally defined as a geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River (where Israel is today), and various adjoining lands.

Your other link has no article attached. I'm not sure what your point is.

You are playing with words and twisting the facts to support your position.

Zionist propaganda... that's all it is.

[Jingthing]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

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Edited May 12, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

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Incorrect.

There were people in the Levant long before Jews arrived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_the_Levant

Palestine is a state recognized by the UN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

"According to Joshua 13:3 and 1 Samuel 6:17, the land of the Philistines (or Allophyloi), called Philistia, was a Pentapolis in south-western Levant comprised the five city-states of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, from Wadi Gaza in the south to the Yarqon River in the north, but with no fixed border to the east."

So Philistine (Palestine) extended from Gaza in the south to the Yargon River which is just north of Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv with no fixed border to the east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

Perhaps Israel should consider giving back Ben Gurion airport to its rightful owners.

Even the The Jewish Virtual Library claims that as far back as 1800 almost 100 years before the founding of Zionism in 1896 and the waves of Jewish migration that Zionism encouraged,Jews formed a mere 8.7% (24,000) and Palestinians 91.3% (275,000) of the population.

Even after the first waves of Jewish migrations 1890 - 1922, the Jewish population of Palestine was only 11% when the first census was taken

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

I agree there has probably been a small community of Orthodox Jews living mainly in Jerusalem for many centuries (and ironically non Zionists waiting for the true second coming coming), but clearly the vast majority living there long before Zionism were Palestinian non Jews.

Are not they entitled to the right to self determination in their homeland also?

[Seastallion]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

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............................

Are not they entitled to the right to self determination in their homeland also?

Apparently not, because (the Jewish) God promised the land to the Jews.

That's not being facetious. Israeli politicians, including Netanyahu, will reference "The Promised Land" whenever it suits them, and there are certainly voters who wholeheartedly believe in the prophesy and vote accordingly, thereby helping to shape Israeli government policy and direction. I can see this as one feasible reason for the aggression and war crimes (referenced in the OP)...after all, what drives humans to such extremes of nastiness other than greed or religion (greed being the other feasible reason for the crimes)?

Expansionism is not defence, it's aggression.

[JingerBen]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

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Incorrect.

There were people in the Levant long before Jews arrived. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistory_of_the_Levant

Palestine is a state recognized by the UN. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine

"According to Joshua 13:3 and 1 Samuel 6:17, the land of the Philistines (or Allophyloi), called Philistia, was a Pentapolis in south-western Levant comprised the five city-states of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, from Wadi Gaza in the south to the Yarqon River in the north, but with no fixed border to the east."

So Philistine (Palestine) extended from Gaza in the south to the Yargon River which is just north of Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv with no fixed border to the east.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

Perhaps Israel should consider giving back Ben Gurion airport to its rightful owners.

Even the The Jewish Virtual Library claims that as far back as 1800 almost 100 years before the founding of Zionism in 1896 and the waves of Jewish migration that Zionism encouraged,Jews formed a mere 8.7% (24,000) and Palestinians 91.3% (275,000) of the population.

Even after the first waves of Jewish migrations 1890 - 1922, the Jewish population of Palestine was only 11% when the first census was taken

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/demograhics.html

I agree there has probably been a small community of Orthodox Jews living mainly in Jerusalem for many centuries (and ironically non Zionists waiting for the true second coming coming), but clearly the vast majority living there long before Zionism were Palestinian non Jews.

Are not they entitled to the right to self determination in their homeland also?

Outstanding post... and exactly correct.

[Ulysses G.]

There WAS NO Arab country there. The British ruled a geographical area called Palestine and Arab immigration was just as illegal as Jewish immigration. You claimed that the Brits were actively helping the Zionists over the Palestinians, but they only enforced the Immigration rules strictly on one group, so - again - you are incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Thanks for proving my point. There was NEVER an Independent Arab country called Palestine. From YOUR link:

The history of Palestine is the study of the past in the region of Palestine, generally defined as a geographic region in Western Asia between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River (where Israel is today), and various adjoining lands.

Your other link has no article attached. I'm not sure what your point is.

You are playing with words and twisting the facts to support your position.

Zionist propaganda... that's all it is.

Nope. I am posting actual facts that are impossible to dispute. You are the one making claims that you can't back up.

[Ulysses G.]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

There were people in the Levant long before Jews arrived.

Yes there were - the Philistines, who originated in Greece - but they have died out over many centuries. They have NOTHING to do with modern day Palestinians who are Arabs and only started calling themselves Palestinians after modern day Israel was created.

In the end, the Philistines were assimilated into Canaanite culture. They eventually disappeared from the biblical record and from history altogether, leaving behind the name Palestine as a testimony of their existence.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html#ixzz3Zv2x8Z9D

Edited May 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Seastallion]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

There were people in the Levant long before Jews arrived.

Yes there were - the Philistines, who originated in Greece - but they have died out over many centuries. They have NOTHING to do with modern day Palestinians who are Arabs and only started calling themselves Palestinians after modern day Israel was created.

In the end, the Philistines were assimilated into Canaanite culture. They eventually disappeared from the biblical record and from history altogether, leaving behind the name Palestine as a testimony of their existence.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html#ixzz3Zv2x8Z9D

A "source" that has it's "Question of the week: How to pray, what is the proper way to pray", is tantamount to the Zionist "God promised us this land".

.

But lets play along with the "source".....this bit comes from a page further down your linked page, and despite the website being highly biased, it could not ignore science.....

"Recent genetic studies have confirmed that the ancestries of Jewish and Arabic inhabitants of Palestine are extremely similar. Geneticists have concluded that the people living in these regions share a common ancestry, through people groups continually living in the Palestine territory".

Read more:http://www.gotquestions.org/Palestinian-descent.html#ixzz3ZvATRj00

So, Jews and Palestinians have a claim to being indigenous to the area. Fast forward to 1948 and the creation of the state of Israel....what were the population ratios of the two sets of indigenes?

Obviously, descendants of converted Ashkenazim are not indigenous.

[BKKBobby]

There is land there. Much more land than Israel. In the region sometimes called Palestine. But its a fact there never was a nation state of Arabs or anyone called Palestine. Not propaganda. Fact.

Propaganda does exist though in speaking about the region from different sides of the conflict. That is normal in warring situations.

There were people in the Levant long before Jews arrived.

Yes there were - the Philistines, who originated in Greece - but they have died out over many centuries. They have NOTHING to do with modern day Palestinians who are Arabs and only started calling themselves Palestinians after modern day Israel was created.

In the end, the Philistines were assimilated into Canaanite culture. They eventually disappeared from the biblical record and from history altogether, leaving behind the name Palestine as a testimony of their existence.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Philistines.html#ixzz3Zv2x8Z9D

If they themselves or other people called them Palestinians is not important. If they are generic or not generic arabs as some on the forum like to call them is not important. Either all arabs are generic, or no arabs are generic.

It doesnt make any difference what you call the Palestinian arabs. The vast majority of the Palestinian arabs are descendants of arabs that were already living there pre-Zionist movement.

You can post revisionist history as much as you want.

Edited May 12, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[Ulysses G.]

But lets play along with the "source"....

You must be extremely ignorant, if you do not know that modern day Palestinians have little to do do with the Philistines. It is not exactly as secret, but, as usual, you want to nit-pick about sources when it is already common knowledge. The Philistines were an Aegean people - more closely related to the Greeks and with no connection ethnically, linguisticly or historically with Arabia and the Palestinians referred to themselves as Arabs - not Palestinians - until very recently. .

Edited May 12, 2015 by Ulysses G.