Israel veterans group alleges Israeli misconduct in Gaza war

[Scott]

Posts removed.

[Jingthing]

Moving away from the predictable irrational Israel demonization (which believe it or not really is demonstrably usually motivated by Judeophobia due to the bizarre lack of balance of criticism of Israel compared to ALL other nations) here is some more useful objective information about the legalities and ethics of IDF targeting behavior.

They concluded that the IDF had at least two very special contextual elements to compete with when fighting Hamas and Hezbollah.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/As-experts-mull-IDF-policies-for-Hamas-which-side-of-the-debate-will-ICC-support-402910

The soldiers speaking through Breaking the Silence, I am sure they are good people, but sadly their understandable objection to some of what they experienced in war is not being used so much for good purposes but more as propaganda fodder for the obsessive international Israel demonizers, many again with very hateful intentions and motivations against Israel. You can even tell how they try to push the lie that Zionism is a dirty word yet they love political self determination movements for other people, but not Jews, Jews apparently don't deserve that.

...

I am sorry if this last comment is off topic but there is an on topic context. All this activity on this Thailand website about the faults of Israel, when there is a major historical genocide happening right now in the Thailand region. I am speaking of the current genocide happening right now against the Muslim Rohingya people of Myanmar. It seems to me on a Thailand website that deserves massively more attention than what's going in tiny faraway Israel, where there is no such genocide occurring, although the enemies of Israel are always threatening it against the Jews. Perhaps the Rohingya crisis carries little interest here because the Israeli demonization movement will have a hard time to blame that one on Israel, world Jewry, and Zionists, not that some of them wouldn't give it a go.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[BKKBobby]

I saw the name Rohingya the first time the last month or so. I dont think anyone I know in Europe know about Rohingya. I guess most of us in the west have been growing up seeing, reading and hearing history and news about The Palestine/Israel conflict though. I had heard that they were persecuting and killing muslims in Myanmar since I read Thai news.

Edited May 13, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Scott]

The Rohingya's are off-topic here but there are several topics running about it in the Thai News section and the World News Section:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/824953-us-calls-for-regional-response-to-se-asia-migrant-crisis/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/824682-thai-government-mulls-opening-refugee-camps-for-rohingya-people/

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/824781-another-empty-camp-found-on-khao-kaew-in-songkhlas-padang-besar-area/

This is one of a number of topics about the mass graves of Rohingya's found in Thailand:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/822695-us-calls-for-speedy-inquiry-into-thai-mass-grave/

This is only a few of the many, many about this subject. They are considered by the UN to be one ofthe most persecuted people on earth.

Now, let's stay on this topic.

[Jingthing]

The context of why I brought up the Rohingyas who justifiably should be the top priority in the world right now of human rights activists and leftist progressives was that it is relevant that they are not. This is a case of a real genocide, happening right now, and the world really could save many many lives if it sprung into action. Sadly, my sense is the world will do very little and these people are heading towards being largely wiped out. The Gaza situation, sad as it is, is not any kind of genocide, in fact the population of Arabs there keeps growing. It is also interesting both groups being Muslims ... yet the Muslims who can pin the blame on Jews and Israel get the lion's share of international attention. Even notoriously Judeophobic Muslim Malaysia treats these refugees as aliens and sends these Muslim brothers back to be executed. What utter hypocrisy!

Delete this if you want, sorry, but the context of why I added to this, is this is really proof of the irrational obsession of "progressives" on Israel and Jews.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

Moving away from the predictable irrational Israel demonization (which believe it or not really is demonstrably usually motivated by Judeophobia due to the bizarre lack of balance of criticism of Israel compared to ALL other nations) here is some more useful objective information about the legalities and ethics of IDF targeting behavior.

Just back the truck up a bit, JT.

You are talking to TV members, posters on these topics.

Haha, so finally the "antisemite" label that has been bandied around to hackneyed proportions has been, rightfully, dropped.

We now have "Judeophobe" to lambaste.

Eventually "demonisation" will also have to be dropped from the oh so common over-use.

Demonisation of Israel is usually not irrational on this forum. In fact, your term "demonisation" is an exaggeration and spin. Criticism of Israel is common, but the word you use ('demonisation") is emotive and inaccurate. THAT is demonstrable.

Where is there evidence (on this forum) of your alleged "Judeophobia"?

As for your "demonstrable" bizarre lack of balance of criticism re other nations....Just how do you know what I or any other Israel-criticiser on this forum also criticise??? How? How can you make that nasty allegation?

[Ulysses G.]

Haha, so finally the "antisemite" label that has been bandied around to hackneyed proportions has been, rightfully, dropped.

We now have "Judeophobe" to lambaste.

They both mean the same thing and have both been used many times on the forum. They both are appropriate for certain posters that are obsessed with expressing their hatred towards Israel and Jews and not even honest enough to admit it.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Seastallion]

Haha, so finally the "antisemite" label that has been bandied around to hackneyed proportions has been, rightfully, dropped.

We now have "Judeophobe" to lambaste.

They both mean the same thing and have both been used many times on the forum. They both are appropriate for certain posters that are obsessed with expressing their hatred towards Israel and Jews.

Wrong.

"Anti" is "against", while "phobe" is someone fearful of. I, and (as far as I can tell) ALL the Israeli-criticisers on this forum are NOT Judeophobes....nor are we antisemites. You are completely wrong.

I would really, sincerely like to see some examples of judeophobia or antisemitism portrayed by "certain posters".

"hatred" is another thing that you Israel-war-crime apologists continually claim yet fail to show.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Seastallion

[Ulysses G.]

Just how do you know what I or any other Israel-criticiser on this forum also criticise??? How? How can you make that nasty allegation?

All you have to do is read these hypocrites posts and watch all the Islamic crimes that they virtually ignore, while blowing every Israeli mole hill into a tall mountain. .

[Ulysses G.]

Haha, so finally the "antisemite" label that has been bandied around to hackneyed proportions has been, rightfully, dropped.

We now have "Judeophobe" to lambaste.

They both mean the same thing and have both been used many times on the forum. They both are appropriate for certain posters that are obsessed with expressing their hatred towards Israel and Jews.

Wrong.

"Anti" is "against", while "phobe" is someone fearful of.

More silly nit-picking. No surprise there. They are synonyms.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[ggold]

It is good that things like this report by an Israeli Veterans group gets press time.

It is also good that such folks that compiled this report exist in spite of suppression by their own.

That they will not be prosecuted is probably a given but....Still it is good that

this information gets out. Because even though their own government which condones such

actions will not prosecute them ( as they themselves are to blame) the world eventually will in one form or another.

To argue these facts with the cadets of the JDL is equivalent to trying to fit

a camel thru the eye of a needle. Realize the onslaught of false justifications will

always be there & just ignore it ....there is no point in trying IMO

It is also good that such folks that compiled this report exist in spite of suppression by their own.

What suppression, It was reported in the press. Israel has Press freedom. How is that suppression?

The fact is no evidence was provided by the veterans group. But where are the voices of Palestinians who did not agree with Hamas's methods?

To argue these facts with the cadets of the JDL is equivalent to trying to fit a camel thru the eye of a needle.

The same could be said for the Arab supporters, who can't accept facts when presented to them or try childishly to re write history to support their argument!

The fact is you will be able to hear about dissenting views from within Israel because Israel has Freedom of the Press. The fact is you will never hear a dissenting voice from the Arabs because they do not have the same Press freedoms.

But even trying to make the haters accept that fact is like trying to fit a camel through the eye of a needle!

According to the haters now Israel is even suppressing their own, as you seem to suggest. Are you able to make a comment without trying to twist it into something it is not?

Are you not the camel trying to fit into the eye of this needle?

Israel does not treat whistle-blowers nicely at all.

Mordechai Vanunu is the first example that springs to mind.

Here's another one....ever heard of the Shuja'iyya massacre from last year? Eran Efrati is the soldier arrested.

https://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/08/03/israeli-army-whistle-blower-leaks-account-of-revenge-attacks-against-civilians-by-israeli-troops-in-gazas-shujaiyya/

It's not as if any nation treats it's whistle blowers nicely, Manning and Snowden to mention two! So why single out Israel.

Then in your haste you conveniently over look the fact that a soldier was arrested for the massacre. Doesn't that show Israel is responsible country that punishes wrong doing by it's troops?

[JingerBen]

The context of why I brought up the Rohingyas who justifiably should be the top priority in the world right now of human rights activists and leftist progressives was that it is relevant that they are not. This is a case of a real genocide, happening right now, and the world really could save many many lives if it sprung into action. Sadly, my sense is the world will do very little and these people are heading towards being largely wiped out. The Gaza situation, sad as it is, is not any kind of genocide, in fact the population of Arabs there keeps growing. It is also interesting both groups being Muslims ... yet the Muslims who can pin the blame on Jews and Israel get the lion's share of international attention. Even notoriously Judeophobic Muslim Malaysia treats these refugees as aliens and sends these Muslim brothers back to be executed. What utter hypocrisy!

Delete this if you want, sorry, but the context of why I added to this, is this is really proof of the irrational obsession of "progressives" on Israel and Jews.

Comparing the international reaction to the investigation of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians with the persecution of the Rohingyas is ridiculous, and a tactical diversion as well.

Zionist propaganda in action.

[JingerBen]

It's not as if any nation treats it's whistle blowers nicely, Manning and Snowden to mention two! So why single out Israel.

Then in your haste you conveniently over look the fact that a soldier was arrested for the massacre. Doesn't that show Israel is responsible country that punishes wrong doing by it's troops?

No.

[Thorgal]

It's know that IDF has committed huge military blunders.

Perhaps they are well armed with sophisticated weaponry, but still the morality of the troops was not like before the second Lebanese war. IDF lost the guerrilla war against Hezbollah militia and their advanced weaponry was not decisive. In fact, the reputation of the Merkava tank was for the first time in history turned into a military disaster, instead of an asset.

Moreover, a lot of high ranked officers do not agree with the Israeli political engagement of the military operations. Or they resign, or they have to be resigned.

OP is also the clear result of a low morality of troops witnessing exaggerated violence and terror in order to accomplish and claim a victory under war crimes and global protest.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Thorgal

[The manic]

There might have been a core population but the Muslims definitely came after the Jews. And this is what the issue really is about.

[The manic]

There might have been a core population but the Muslims definitely came after the Jews. And this is what the issue really is about.

[Jingthing]

There might have been a core population but the Muslims definitely came after the Jews. And this is what the issue really is about.

I think that really isn't the issue anymore. It's just academic and also an area for political propaganda on both sides, but the people are still there and no intention of going anywhere, so practically speaking, it's a bunch of noise that doesn't impact the reality on the ground.

There are millions of Jews AND Muslims in the region of what people call Palestine and/or Israel.

The majority of both of the Jews and the Muslims there were born on this region.

Most don't easily have anywhere else to easily go to.

So now what?

People who think they really know the answer ... well, you don't. It's just not that easy.

[BKKBobby]

There might have been a core population but the Muslims definitely came after the Jews. And this is what the issue really is about.

:s

Its not about Muslims. Arab is a ethnicity, Islam is a religion and yes the Jewish faith is older than Islam and Christianity, you didnt score any points.

The indigenous people of Israel and Palestine are semitic peoples (todays indigenous Jews and Arabs of Israel and Palestine).

Edited May 13, 2015 by BKKBobby

[The manic]

The answer is pretty simple. Let the oil rich Arab nations, who have oil wealth and spare land give citizen ship to the so called Palestinian people- their Muslim brothers and sisters. Europe and the USA have given more help to the Pals and they donate more money to Egypt than they do Israel. The Pals are the bedouin raiders who were artificially settled in the area in exchange for curtailing their criminal activities. With the establishment of squatter cities classified as refugee camps they now receive western, christian tax money from the UN charities.A disgrace. The Pals are the dole blodgers of the world.The rest of the Arab world know this. Ask any Kuwaiti.

[The manic]

The answer is pretty simple. Let the oil rich Arab nations, who have oil wealth and spare land give citizen ship to the so called Palestinian people- their Muslim brothers and sisters. Europe and the USA have given more help to the Pals and they donate more money to Egypt than they do Israel. The Pals are the bedouin raiders who were artificially settled in the area in exchange for curtailing their criminal activities. With the establishment of squatter cities classified as refugee camps they now receive western, christian tax money from the UN charities.A disgrace. The Pals are the dole blodgers of the world.The rest of the Arab world know this. Ask any Kuwaiti.

[The manic]

I'm not trying to score points but just point out that I###m is a made up religion that is not really a religion but a violent war philosophy created to defeat the Jews and Christians.

[Seastallion]

It is good that things like this report by an Israeli Veterans group gets press time.

It is also good that such folks that compiled this report exist in spite of suppression by their own.

That they will not be prosecuted is probably a given but....Still it is good that

this information gets out. Because even though their own government which condones such

actions will not prosecute them ( as they themselves are to blame) the world eventually will in one form or another.

To argue these facts with the cadets of the JDL is equivalent to trying to fit

a camel thru the eye of a needle. Realize the onslaught of false justifications will

always be there & just ignore it ....there is no point in trying IMO

It is also good that such folks that compiled this report exist in spite of suppression by their own.

What suppression, It was reported in the press. Israel has Press freedom. How is that suppression?

The fact is no evidence was provided by the veterans group. But where are the voices of Palestinians who did not agree with Hamas's methods?

To argue these facts with the cadets of the JDL is equivalent to trying to fit a camel thru the eye of a needle.

The same could be said for the Arab supporters, who can't accept facts when presented to them or try childishly to re write history to support their argument!

The fact is you will be able to hear about dissenting views from within Israel because Israel has Freedom of the Press. The fact is you will never hear a dissenting voice from the Arabs because they do not have the same Press freedoms.

But even trying to make the haters accept that fact is like trying to fit a camel through the eye of a needle!

According to the haters now Israel is even suppressing their own, as you seem to suggest. Are you able to make a comment without trying to twist it into something it is not?

Are you not the camel trying to fit into the eye of this needle?

Israel does not treat whistle-blowers nicely at all.

Mordechai Vanunu is the first example that springs to mind.

Here's another one....ever heard of the Shuja'iyya massacre from last year? Eran Efrati is the soldier arrested.

https://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/08/03/israeli-army-whistle-blower-leaks-account-of-revenge-attacks-against-civilians-by-israeli-troops-in-gazas-shujaiyya/

It's not as if any nation treats it's whistle blowers nicely, Manning and Snowden to mention two! So why single out Israel.

Then in your haste you conveniently over look the fact that a soldier was arrested for the massacre. Doesn't that show Israel is responsible country that punishes wrong doing by it's troops?

Please keep up and stop diverting The comment about Israeli whistleblowers being badly treated by Israel was made with regard to them feeling the need to remain anonymous.

Again, who cares what other countries do when the subject at hand is lifting the lid on Israeli war crimes.

Whatever other countries do does not justify Israel's crimes nor it's treatment of whistleblowers.

Everything that Israel does wrong that is criticised is as OK because another country or group also do wrong. That is fallacious non-reasoning.

[Jingthing]

The context of why I brought up the Rohingyas who justifiably should be the top priority in the world right now of human rights activists and leftist progressives was that it is relevant that they are not. This is a case of a real genocide, happening right now, and the world really could save many many lives if it sprung into action. Sadly, my sense is the world will do very little and these people are heading towards being largely wiped out. The Gaza situation, sad as it is, is not any kind of genocide, in fact the population of Arabs there keeps growing. It is also interesting both groups being Muslims ... yet the Muslims who can pin the blame on Jews and Israel get the lion's share of international attention. Even notoriously Judeophobic Muslim Malaysia treats these refugees as aliens and sends these Muslim brothers back to be executed. What utter hypocrisy!

Delete this if you want, sorry, but the context of why I added to this, is this is really proof of the irrational obsession of "progressives" on Israel and Jews.

Comparing the international reaction to the investigation of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians with the persecution of the Rohingyas is ridiculous, and a tactical diversion as well.

Zionist propaganda in action.

I think I well explained why bringing up the Rohingyas has relevance to the lack of balance of international attention regarding Israel issues vs. everywhere else. Every rational person knows that if the country neighboring Gaza was yet another of the numerous Muslim dominated states, the attention being given the conflict there would be deeply buried in the headlines. Much more negative attention is given because Israel is the one and only Jewish dominated state.

As far as your rude Zionist propaganda comment. So you think Zionist is always a bad thing? Why? Political self determination is bad thing for Jews and for others isn't? Perhaps it would be helpful to replace the word CUTE PUPPIES with Zionist. Sorted.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

So you think Zionist is always a bad thing? Why?

Yes, I do.

It is the racist/religionist supremacist aspect of Zionism that I object to. The Jews must be in control, Israel must be recognized as a Jewish State, only Jews have a right to return and self determination..but no-one else.

I have no objection to any Jew persecuted for their faith elsewhere in the world finding safe haven in Israel...but the same should apply to persecuted Muslims and Christians also.

Zionism ignores the elephant in the room..the 4.5 million Palestinians who were born there, have been ethnically cleansed, many of whom are still living in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank. That is the root cause of this whole conflict.

If the Palestinians who used to live in Sederot for example hadn't been ethnically cleansed over the fence into Gaza (and they had actually helped the Jewish Haganah fighters against the British) maybe they would not be in conflict and there would never have been a Hamas or resistance movement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

The Palestinians have experienced many other such injustices. The atrocities in the OP are just one manifestation of them.

[Seastallion]

The context of why I brought up the Rohingyas who justifiably should be the top priority in the world right now of human rights activists and leftist progressives was that it is relevant that they are not. This is a case of a real genocide, happening right now, and the world really could save many many lives if it sprung into action. Sadly, my sense is the world will do very little and these people are heading towards being largely wiped out. The Gaza situation, sad as it is, is not any kind of genocide, in fact the population of Arabs there keeps growing. It is also interesting both groups being Muslims ... yet the Muslims who can pin the blame on Jews and Israel get the lion's share of international attention. Even notoriously Judeophobic Muslim Malaysia treats these refugees as aliens and sends these Muslim brothers back to be executed. What utter hypocrisy!

Delete this if you want, sorry, but the context of why I added to this, is this is really proof of the irrational obsession of "progressives" on Israel and Jews.

Comparing the international reaction to the investigation of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians with the persecution of the Rohingyas is ridiculous, and a tactical diversion as well.

Zionist propaganda in action.

I think I well explained why bringing up the Rohingyas has relevance to the lack of balance of international attention regarding Israel issues vs. everywhere else. Every rational person knows that if the country neighboring Gaza was yet another of the numerous Muslim dominated states, the attention being given the conflict there would be deeply buried in the headlines. Much more negative attention is given because Israel is the one and only Jewish dominated state.

As far as your rude Zionist propaganda comment. So you think Zionist is always a bad thing? Why? Political self determination is bad thing for Jews and for others isn't? Perhaps it would be helpful to replace the word CUTE PUPPIES with Zionist. Sorted.

cutepuppy.jpg

What is rude about observing "Zionist propaganda in action"? More emotive nonsense.

As for the puppy suggestion....totally bizarre. "Cute puppies Zionist for sale" ...Nope, doesn't work..

[JingerBen]

The context of why I brought up the Rohingyas who justifiably should be the top priority in the world right now of human rights activists and leftist progressives was that it is relevant that they are not. This is a case of a real genocide, happening right now, and the world really could save many many lives if it sprung into action. Sadly, my sense is the world will do very little and these people are heading towards being largely wiped out. The Gaza situation, sad as it is, is not any kind of genocide, in fact the population of Arabs there keeps growing. It is also interesting both groups being Muslims ... yet the Muslims who can pin the blame on Jews and Israel get the lion's share of international attention. Even notoriously Judeophobic Muslim Malaysia treats these refugees as aliens and sends these Muslim brothers back to be executed. What utter hypocrisy!

Delete this if you want, sorry, but the context of why I added to this, is this is really proof of the irrational obsession of "progressives" on Israel and Jews.

Comparing the international reaction to the investigation of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians with the persecution of the Rohingyas is ridiculous, and a tactical diversion as well.

Zionist propaganda in action.

I think I well explained why bringing up the Rohingyas has relevance to the lack of balance of international attention regarding Israel issues vs. everywhere else. Every rational person knows that if the country neighboring Gaza was yet another of the numerous Muslim dominated states, the attention being given the conflict there would be deeply buried in the headlines. Much more negative attention is given because Israel is the one and only Jewish dominated state.

As far as your rude Zionist propaganda comment. So you think Zionist is always a bad thing? Why? Political self determination is bad thing for Jews and for others isn't? Perhaps it would be helpful to replace the word CUTE PUPPIES with Zionist. Sorted.

cutepuppy.jpg

The issue of Zionist propaganda is related to - although not central to - the topic of Breaking the Silence's investigation of Israeli war crimes against the Palestinians.

The Zionist techniques are often amusingly childish. They cover the whole spectrum, from cutesy photos intended to humanize Israeli conduct, to slanderous accusations of "Jew hatred " and "anti-Semitism" against those who dare to express a different opinion.

[Ulysses G.]

All one has to do is read this forum regularly to realize that the charges of Jew hatred and anti-Semitism are well founded. After that, Google "anti-Semitic protests" and take a gander.

Anti-Semitic Muslim Protesters Chant ‘Heil Hitler’ in London

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

[JingerBen]

All one has to do is read this forum regularly to realize that the charges of Jew hatred and anti-Semitism are well founded. After that, Google "anti-Semitic protests" and take a gander.

Anti-Semitic Muslim Protesters Chant ‘Heil Hitler’ in London

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/11/anti-semitic-muslim-protesters-chant-heil-hitler-in-london/

I do read this forum regularly, and I see a diversity of opinions, but nothing that could be called hatred or an incitement to violence.

Why don't you have the courage of your convictions and name the members you are talking about?

Confront them individually and don't hide behind blanket charges that no one can refute.

[Ulysses G.]

Maybe you are biased.

I would love to, but naming the Jew haters would violate the Thai Visa rules. However, I have pointed out and reported hateful, anti-Semitic posts numerous times over the years and they were inevitably deleted by the moderators.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[ggold]

So you think Zionist is always a bad thing? Why?

Yes, I do.

It is the racist/religionist supremacist aspect of Zionism that I object to. The Jews must be in control, Israel must be recognized as a Jewish State, only Jews have a right to return and self determination..but no-one else.

I have no objection to any Jew persecuted for their faith elsewhere in the world finding safe haven in Israel...but the same should apply to persecuted Muslims and Christians also.

Zionism ignores the elephant in the room..the 4.5 million Palestinians who were born there, have been ethnically cleansed, many of whom are still living in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank. That is the root cause of this whole conflict.

If the Palestinians who used to live in Sederot for example hadn't been ethnically cleansed over the fence into Gaza (and they had actually helped the Jewish Haganah fighters against the British) maybe they would not be in conflict and there would never have been a Hamas or resistance movement.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-true-gaza-backstory-that-the-israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

The Palestinians have experienced many other such injustices. The atrocities in the OP are just one manifestation of them.

Zionism ignores the elephant in the room..the 4.5 million Palestinians who were born there, have been ethnically cleansed, many of whom are still living in refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank. That is the root cause of this whole conflict.

Don't you think the question should be why are there still refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank? Hamas are in full control of Gaza, why haven't they replaces the camp with proper accommodation for the refugees? Same with the West Bank where Abbass and the PA control the refugee camps why haven't they built proper homes for the refugees.

Why do they repress their own people?