Israel veterans group alleges Israeli misconduct in Gaza war

[JingerBen]

Anyway, right now Hamas in Gaza is working feverishly to rearm for their next aggressive action against the state of Israel. The IDF and Israeli goverrnment I am sure is very aware of these matters of controversy concerning targeting ethics. There's always a next time. That's the status quo now, tragic as it is, a predictable flare up every few years or so. Of course Hamas can't beat the IDF ... maybe if they got over their unreasonable demands towards Israel, as in their wish to take it all over and kick out/kill the Jews something could change. No reason to expect that though.

The blockade of Gaza and the building of illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are aggressive actions against the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine.

Maybe if the Israelis got over their unreasonable demands towards the Palestinians, as in their wish to kick out/kill the Palestinians something could change. No reason to expect that though.

As far Israel concerned there is no state of Palestine. Right of return of Arabs into Israel is a non-starter as everyone knows that would mean the end of Israel. The Gaza blockade is justified based on the actions and genocidal goals of the Hamas regime there. Personally, I agree the west bank settlements will make any chance of peace harder though that leaves Jerusalem and surroundings, a true hot potato. I realize the odious Israel demonization movement would love to see Israel just voluntarily give up the nation state they have worked so hard to achieve. Dream on. Not gonna happen.

The illegal East Jerusalem and West Bank settlements won't make peace "...harder..." they will make it impossible.

[Jingthing]

More like the Palestinian demand of right of return into Israel makes peace impossible. Israel can NEVER allow that, and will not. Israel may indeed swap land for peace as they have done before multiple times. Yes a reasonable Palestinian leadership, no demand for right of return, dump Hamas, accept Israel's right to exist would indeed at least over time put political pressure on Israel internally to serious bring about a real peace deal and a real Palestinian second state living side by side with Israel in peace. Unlikely? Yes, very.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Jingthing

[JingerBen]

Anyway, right now Hamas in Gaza is working feverishly to rearm for their next aggressive action against the state of Israel. The IDF and Israeli goverrnment I am sure is very aware of these matters of controversy concerning targeting ethics. There's always a next time. That's the status quo now, tragic as it is, a predictable flare up every few years or so. Of course Hamas can't beat the IDF ... maybe if they got over their unreasonable demands towards Israel, as in their wish to take it all over and kick out/kill the Jews something could change. No reason to expect that though.

The blockade of Gaza and the building of illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are aggressive actions against the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine.

Maybe if the Israelis got over their unreasonable demands towards the Palestinians, as in their wish to kick out/kill the Palestinians something could change. No reason to expect that though.

As far as Israel is concerned there is no state of Palestine. Right of return of Arabs into Israel (a key Palestinian demand) is a non-starter as everyone knows that would mean the end of Israel. The Gaza blockade is justified based on the actions and genocidal goals of the Hamas regime there. Personally, I agree the west bank settlements will make any chance of peace harder though that leaves Jerusalem and surroundings, a true hot potato. I realize the odious Israel demonization movement would love to see Israel just voluntarily give up the nation state they have worked so hard to achieve. Dream on. Not gonna happen.

Yes, the Israelis deny there is a State of Palestine... just like the blind men denied there was an elephant in the room.

[Jingthing]

You're forgetting Hamas.

[Jingthing]

The Palestinian people caused most of their own their own problems.

"The Stranger" was a much superior book.

Im sure defence will use that when Israel is brought before the international court.

But your honor, they caused their own problems, we just had to murder innocent people.

You're jumping the gun saying when instead of if. There is no certainty that there is even such a case to be made. Refer to the objective information I previously posted.

[Thorgal]

You can't fight against the will of a population. It never worked with any other colonial power in history.

Israeli occupation and recent expression of war opposition against the latest political clique will end up in a national suicide.

A lot of Israeli's are actually emigrating back to Western Europe and there are a lot of domestic protests against previous military interventions. To fill in this vacuum they've started massive settler immigration projects for Eastern European 'Jews'.

IDF is composed of a rather small professional army who can't start any military operation on its own : they will always have to rely on a huge reserve of volunteers/reservists. The available limited human capital is not suitable for long lasting CONVENTIONAL wars.

Typical Israeli blitzkriegs will always be characterised with use of unconventional weapons and criminal warfare on innocent civilians with the usual excuses to deploy them and ... to hide all the above !

OP was about internal IDF protest mainly from IDF volunteers/reservists for committed IDF war crimes on civilians - not Hamas militia - under higher IDF command, isn't it ?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

Israel is not a colonial power.

Jews are INDIGENOUS to Israel.

It is true the IDF is not capable of large very prolonged military actions.

They need to be short.
You greatly exaggerate the extent of Israeli migration out of Israel.

Israel is a free country and it's citizens are free to expatriate if they wish, of course.

As far as "war crimes" please refer to previous objective information I have posted on this thread. It is highly questionable whether what actually occurred in the most recent Gaza flareup raises to the level of that rhetoric.

Edited May 14, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Breaking the Silence -- foreign funded Israeli demonization propaganda?

Yes, it appears so.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2015/05/the-latest-breaking-the-silence-report-isnt-journalism-its-propaganda/

Breaking the Silence’s money is foreign, not Israeli, and the primary customers for its product are foreign, not Israeli. At its extensive English website, Jewish soldiers are presented for international consumption as a spectacle of moral failure, a spectacle paid for by Norwegians, French Catholics, and Germans. This being so, it is completely reasonable for Israelis to wonder what exactly this group is and which side it is on.
...

The vast media coverage devoted over the past week to this little piece of agit-prop from a little country—its claims parroted without proof, shorn of context and comparison, and presented as journalism to people around the world—must lead us to ask what, exactly, is going on. What is motivating all of this? No one observing our planet of violence and injustice in 2015 can claim any longer that Israel is covered the same way other countries are covered; that the coverage is proportional to the scale of events; or that the tone of moral condemnation—growing in its hysteria, and crawling from the fringes deeper and deeper into the mainstream press—is in the realm of reasonable reportage.

[The manic]

When will the Arab occupation of North Africa cease? Israel sets us an example of how to confront the scourge of Islamafascism

[carmine]

This "group" a radicle left entity who get it's funding from overseas sources tasked with the sole purpose to

demonise and show Israel in a very negative lights, this group is one of many, the army has asked them

repeatedly for their 'evidences' so they can investigate the allegations but none was supplied,

Unless your head is buried in the sand like the pro anything Israeli posters on here you would realize that numerous abuses have been committed by "both" sides.

There really are ridiculous levels of denial shown on here by posters that might write well but clearly either are not in touch with reality or simply know little and have know actual experience of living in Israel and the occupied territories.

[carmine]

The Palestinian people caused most of their own their own problems.

"The Stranger" was a much superior book.

Forgive me, i thought they were rather upset about being thrown off the land called Palestine that they had been living on for 2000 years.

I wonder how the average American would have felt if the same had been done to them?

btw, has Israel ever been charged with war crimes over the Shatila massacre? Always a question that the pro Israeli lobbyists run shy from. Ofcourse the bullying thug Ariel Sharon who blatantly let the massacre happen is no longer here to be charged for his crimes.

Like i said, theres extreme wrongs committed by both sides.

[Seastallion]

Breaking the Silence -- foreign funded Israeli demonization propaganda?

Yes, it appears so.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2015/05/the-latest-breaking-the-silence-report-isnt-journalism-its-propaganda/

Breaking the Silence’s money is foreign, not Israeli, and the primary customers for its product are foreign, not Israeli. At its extensive English website, Jewish soldiers are presented for international consumption as a spectacle of moral failure, a spectacle paid for by Norwegians, French Catholics, and Germans. This being so, it is completely reasonable for Israelis to wonder what exactly this group is and which side it is on.

...

The vast media coverage devoted over the past week to this little piece of agit-prop from a little country—its claims parroted without proof, shorn of context and comparison, and presented as journalism to people around the world—must lead us to ask what, exactly, is going on. What is motivating all of this? No one observing our planet of violence and injustice in 2015 can claim any longer that Israel is covered the same way other countries are covered; that the coverage is proportional to the scale of events; or that the tone of moral condemnation—growing in its hysteria, and crawling from the fringes deeper and deeper into the mainstream press—is in the realm of reasonable reportage.

More of the "What about the violence in other parts of the world?"

Well...firstly, that's just diversionary and does not excuse or justify any of Israel's crimes. It's like a husband beating his wife, saying to the neighbours, "Hey...worry about those kids vandalising down the street...call the police on them, don't worry about me". The crimes remain...what about them? Instead of saying, "Oh, look over there, there's an atrocity to condemn, go and do something about that ...", how about admitting Israel's massive faults and being proactive in stopping it?

Perhaps if America did not actively support Israel in it's crimes, the Western media would not focus as much?

[Thorgal]

Israel is not a colonial power.

Jews are INDIGENOUS to Israel.

It is true the IDF is not capable of large very prolonged military actions.

They need to be short.

You greatly exaggerate the extent of Israeli migration out of Israel.

Israel is a free country and it's citizens are free to expatriate if they wish, of course.

As far as "war crimes" please refer to previous objective information I have posted on this thread. It is highly questionable whether what actually occurred in the most recent Gaza flareup raises to the level of that rhetoric.

Perhaps you should consider that Israel is committing war crimes to prove its own population that the settlements are well protected and the main new development projects remain on tracks.

You can find it on the Israeli settlement propaganda folders :

http://myesha.org.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/hoveretweb.pdf

[carmine]

Breaking the Silence -- foreign funded Israeli demonization propaganda?

Yes, it appears so.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2015/05/the-latest-breaking-the-silence-report-isnt-journalism-its-propaganda/

Breaking the Silence’s money is foreign, not Israeli, and the primary customers for its product are foreign, not Israeli. At its extensive English website, Jewish soldiers are presented for international consumption as a spectacle of moral failure, a spectacle paid for by Norwegians, French Catholics, and Germans. This being so, it is completely reasonable for Israelis to wonder what exactly this group is and which side it is on.

...

The vast media coverage devoted over the past week to this little piece of agit-prop from a little country—its claims parroted without proof, shorn of context and comparison, and presented as journalism to people around the world—must lead us to ask what, exactly, is going on. What is motivating all of this? No one observing our planet of violence and injustice in 2015 can claim any longer that Israel is covered the same way other countries are covered; that the coverage is proportional to the scale of events; or that the tone of moral condemnation—growing in its hysteria, and crawling from the fringes deeper and deeper into the mainstream press—is in the realm of reasonable reportage.

More of the "What about the violence in other parts of the world?"

Well...firstly, that's just diversionary and does not excuse or justify any of Israel's crimes. It's like a husband beating his wife, saying to the neighbours, "Hey...worry about those kids vandalising down the street...call the police on them, don't worry about me". The crimes remain...what about them? Instead of saying, "Oh, look over there, there's an atrocity to condemn, go and do something about that ...", how about admitting Israel's massive faults and being proactive in stopping it?

Perhaps if America did not actively support Israel in it's crimes, the Western media would not focus as much?

The Netanyahu government is a disaster for Israel's standing in the world. He's just a bigoted thug playing politics with no interest for peace with the Palestinians. Sadly, the likes of Yitzak are Rabin no longer with us. Now there was a truly great man, a visionary, so needed now in the region and instead they have a figure like Netanyahu in whose leadership there will never ever be a chance of peace, in whose leadership many now long on with disdain.

Add to that, is really doesn't help when the American president and half of Congress clearly think the Israeli prime minster is a complete and utter tool does it.

Edited May 15, 2015 by carmine

[carmine]

Breaking the Silence -- foreign funded Israeli demonization propaganda?

Yes, it appears so.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2015/05/the-latest-breaking-the-silence-report-isnt-journalism-its-propaganda/

Breaking the Silence’s money is foreign, not Israeli, and the primary customers for its product are foreign, not Israeli. At its extensive English website, Jewish soldiers are presented for international consumption as a spectacle of moral failure, a spectacle paid for by Norwegians, French Catholics, and Germans. This being so, it is completely reasonable for Israelis to wonder what exactly this group is and which side it is on.

...

The vast media coverage devoted over the past week to this little piece of agit-prop from a little country—its claims parroted without proof, shorn of context and comparison, and presented as journalism to people around the world—must lead us to ask what, exactly, is going on. What is motivating all of this? No one observing our planet of violence and injustice in 2015 can claim any longer that Israel is covered the same way other countries are covered; that the coverage is proportional to the scale of events; or that the tone of moral condemnation—growing in its hysteria, and crawling from the fringes deeper and deeper into the mainstream press—is in the realm of reasonable reportage.

More of the "What about the violence in other parts of the world?"

Well...firstly, that's just diversionary and does not excuse or justify any of Israel's crimes. It's like a husband beating his wife, saying to the neighbours, "Hey...worry about those kids vandalising down the street...call the police on them, don't worry about me". The crimes remain...what about them? Instead of saying, "Oh, look over there, there's an atrocity to condemn, go and do something about that ...", how about admitting Israel's massive faults and being proactive in stopping it?

Perhaps if America did not actively support Israel in it's crimes, the Western media would not focus as much?

To be fair to the US administration, the president does little or nothing to disguise his contempt for Netanyahoo.

[JingerBen]

Breaking the Silence -- foreign funded Israeli demonization propaganda?

Yes, it appears so.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2015/05/the-latest-breaking-the-silence-report-isnt-journalism-its-propaganda/

Breaking the Silence’s money is foreign, not Israeli, and the primary customers for its product are foreign, not Israeli. At its extensive English website, Jewish soldiers are presented for international consumption as a spectacle of moral failure, a spectacle paid for by Norwegians, French Catholics, and Germans. This being so, it is completely reasonable for Israelis to wonder what exactly this group is and which side it is on.

...

The vast media coverage devoted over the past week to this little piece of agit-prop from a little country—its claims parroted without proof, shorn of context and comparison, and presented as journalism to people around the world—must lead us to ask what, exactly, is going on. What is motivating all of this? No one observing our planet of violence and injustice in 2015 can claim any longer that Israel is covered the same way other countries are covered; that the coverage is proportional to the scale of events; or that the tone of moral condemnation—growing in its hysteria, and crawling from the fringes deeper and deeper into the mainstream press—is in the realm of reasonable reportage.

The Mosaic, self-described as "advancing Jewish thought" is hardly an unbiased source.

They say that the Danish Lutheran organization Dan Church Aid, the French Catholic group CCFD - Terre Solidaire, and the governments of Norway and Switzerland are providing funds for the Israeli veterans group Breaking the Silence.

These groups and governments don't have an agenda to subvert the state of Israel.

They are exposing war crimes.

[Jingthing]

Can't have "Jewish" thought advanced here ... no siree.

Unless it's anonymous Jews being paid by non-Israelis who are hostile to Israel to broadcast carefully filtered exaggerated Israel demonization propaganda internationally. Then ... OK.

Man up boychiks ... if you're going to reject information sources for being "Jewish" don't you need to reject speech from ALL Jews? Oh, no, that would be RACIST. So confusing for you.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[BKKBobby]

Cherrypicking information source and commanding other posters to use it as reference for the threads discussion. This is weird.

[JingerBen]

Can't have "Jewish" thought advanced here ... no siree.

Unless it's anonymous Jews being paid by non-Israelis who are hostile to Israel to broadcast carefully filtered exaggerated Israel demonization propaganda internationally. Then ... OK.

Man up boychiks ... if you're going to reject information sources for being "Jewish" don't you need to reject speech from ALL Jews? Oh, no, that would be RACIST. So confusing for you.

I don't reject information sources for being Jewish, and I don't think the other posters on this thread do either.

Breaking the Silence, Peace Now, and many other Israeli groups are credible and fair.

What I object to is biased and flagrant propaganda.

[Seastallion]

Breaking the Silence -- foreign funded Israeli demonization propaganda?

Yes, it appears so.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2015/05/the-latest-breaking-the-silence-report-isnt-journalism-its-propaganda/

Breaking the Silence’s money is foreign, not Israeli, and the primary customers for its product are foreign, not Israeli. At its extensive English website, Jewish soldiers are presented for international consumption as a spectacle of moral failure, a spectacle paid for by Norwegians, French Catholics, and Germans. This being so, it is completely reasonable for Israelis to wonder what exactly this group is and which side it is on.

...

The vast media coverage devoted over the past week to this little piece of agit-prop from a little country—its claims parroted without proof, shorn of context and comparison, and presented as journalism to people around the world—must lead us to ask what, exactly, is going on. What is motivating all of this? No one observing our planet of violence and injustice in 2015 can claim any longer that Israel is covered the same way other countries are covered; that the coverage is proportional to the scale of events; or that the tone of moral condemnation—growing in its hysteria, and crawling from the fringes deeper and deeper into the mainstream press—is in the realm of reasonable reportage.

More of the "What about the violence in other parts of the world?"

Well...firstly, that's just diversionary and does not excuse or justify any of Israel's crimes. It's like a husband beating his wife, saying to the neighbours, "Hey...worry about those kids vandalising down the street...call the police on them, don't worry about me". The crimes remain...what about them? Instead of saying, "Oh, look over there, there's an atrocity to condemn, go and do something about that ...", how about admitting Israel's massive faults and being proactive in stopping it?

Perhaps if America did not actively support Israel in it's crimes, the Western media would not focus as much?

To be fair to the US administration, the president does little or nothing to disguise his contempt for Netanyahoo.

Yes, but to be fair, he still sends them weapons with which they contin ue to occupy and oppress, and he still condones the UNSC vetoes every time someone in the UN tries to force Israel to desist with it's crimes. Explain that.

[Seastallion]

Can't have "Jewish" thought advanced here ... no siree.

Unless it's anonymous Jews being paid by non-Israelis who are hostile to Israel to broadcast carefully filtered exaggerated Israel demonization propaganda internationally. Then ... OK.

Man up boychiks ... if you're going to reject information sources for being "Jewish" don't you need to reject speech from ALL Jews? Oh, no, that would be RACIST. So confusing for you.

There's a difference between "Jewish (Zionist) thought", opinion pieces, and reports from Jewish soldiers on eye witness accounts of crimes. Big difference. So confusing for you.

[Jingthing]

Can't have "Jewish" thought advanced here ... no siree.

Unless it's anonymous Jews being paid by non-Israelis who are hostile to Israel to broadcast carefully filtered exaggerated Israel demonization propaganda internationally. Then ... OK.

Man up boychiks ... if you're going to reject information sources for being "Jewish" don't you need to reject speech from ALL Jews? Oh, no, that would be RACIST. So confusing for you.

I don't reject information sources for being Jewish, and I don't think the other posters on this thread do either.

Breaking the Silence, Peace Now, and many other Israeli groups are credible and fair.

What I object to is biased and flagrant propaganda.

Yeah sure unless it's biased and flagrant propaganda that can be exploited by the odious Israel demonization/BDS movement which clearly is fixated on denying the legitimacy of the existence of Israel.

[JingerBen]

To be fair to the US administration, the president does little or nothing to disguise his contempt for Netanyahoo.

Yes, but to be fair, he still sends them weapons with which they contin ue to occupy and oppress, and he still condones the UNSC vetoes every time someone in the UN tries to force Israel to desist with it's crimes.

Explain that.

I'm no big fan of Obama... although I don't hate him. I just think he is basically unqualified to be where he is.

He can't do much vis-a-vis Israel, The Zionist lobby in Washington is just too powerful. That's the reality he has to deal with.

If the playing field was level he would do more for the Palestinians, I'm sure.

[Jingthing]

To be fair to the US administration, the president does little or nothing to disguise his contempt for Netanyahoo.

Yes, but to be fair, he still sends them weapons with which they contin ue to occupy and oppress, and he still condones the UNSC vetoes every time someone in the UN tries to force Israel to desist with it's crimes.

Explain that.

I'm no big fan of Obama... although I don't hate him. I just think he is basically unqualified to be where he is.

He can't do much vis-a-vis Israel, The Zionist lobby in Washington is just too powerful. That's the reality he has to deal with.

If the playing field was level he would do more for the Palestinians, I'm sure.

Typical Israel (and Jewish) demonization rhetoric about Jewish global control. Dude, the USA supports the democratic governement of Israel, a civilized country with women's rights and gay rights and indeed Arab rights for it's 20 percent Arab population, over the radical Islamic Jihadist Islamofascist Palestinian terrorists like Hamas (who openly seek a "Jew free" so called Paletine) because that's what the majority of American people support. Just check the opinion polls. If that changes, U.S. policy will change.

You can't escape the side you are supporting is rabidly racist and openly genocidal in intention against Jews. Yes the IDF is strong. If it wasn't, Israel wouldn't exist. Everyone honest knows that.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

I don't reject information sources for being Jewish, and I don't think the other posters on this thread do either.

You are either very unobservant or very dishonest. The posters on this thread constantly reject Jewish sources, unless they are Jewish loons that agree with them.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[thaibeachlovers]

To be fair to the US administration, the president does little or nothing to disguise his contempt for Netanyahoo.

Yes, but to be fair, he still sends them weapons with which they contin ue to occupy and oppress, and he still condones the UNSC vetoes every time someone in the UN tries to force Israel to desist with it's crimes.

Explain that.

I'm no big fan of Obama... although I don't hate him. I just think he is basically unqualified to be where he is.

He can't do much vis-a-vis Israel, The Zionist lobby in Washington is just too powerful. That's the reality he has to deal with.

If the playing field was level he would do more for the Palestinians, I'm sure.

Typical Israel (and Jewish) demonization rhetoric about Jewish global control. Dude, the USA supports the democratic governement of Israel, a civilized country with women's rights and gay rights and indeed Arab rights for it's 20 percent Arab population, over the radical Islamic Jihadist Islamofascist Palestinian terrorists like Hamas (who openly seek a "Jew free" so called Paletine) because that's what the majority of American people support. Just check the opinion polls. If that changes, U.S. policy will change.

You can't escape the side you are supporting is rabidly racist and openly genocidal in intention against Jews. Yes the IDF is strong. If it wasn't, Israel wouldn't exist. Everyone honest knows that.

You appear to have overlooked the forced evictions of Jerusalem Arabs for the crime of building houses when they are never given permits to build on their own land. No "rights" for them, then.

Under the original legal boundaries, Jerusalem does not even belong to Israel.

[Jingthing]

What about the rights of the Middle Eastern Jews kicked out so many Muslim countries?

The Israel demonizers obviously simply can't accept the existence of just the one rather small Jewish majority country.

The anti-Jewish discrimination in that is totally obvious.

[BKKBobby]

Why would you bring up countries that are dictatorships... Isnt Israel a civilized democracy? :s

[thaibeachlovers]

What about the rights of the Middle Eastern Jews kicked out so many Muslim countries?

The Israel demonizers obviously simply can't accept the existence of just the one rather small Jewish majority country.

The anti-Jewish discrimination in that is totally obvious.

You don't seem to get that most of us accept the right of Israel to exist WITHIN THE LEGAL BOUNDARIES AS SET IN 1948 BY THE UNITED NATIONS. We don't accept the right of Israel to occupy land illegally and steal it to build illegal settlements and punish the Palestinians every day for ever.

If the Catholic Irish and the Protestant Irish can make peace after 600 years of conflict, why can't Israel with the Palestinians? NB the British made the first move, something the Israelis seem unable to do.

[Jingthing]

Why should Israel accept what the Arab/Muslim world never accepted? Israel was immediately attacked by multiple Muslim borders. Those 1948 borders are totally indefensible. Israel has nothing to do with Northern Ireland. It's funny the Arabs demand right of return into Israel but you don't hear the millions of Middle Eastern Jews demanding right of return into the Muslim countries. These demands of people for so called Israeli surrender don't fool many people ... they are really demands for the end of Israel and to make Israel so weak that she is overrrun by the much greater numbers from the Muslim world.

OK, I will grant that some of "peace" promoters are just naive but many know exactly what the result of their suggestions would be.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Jingthing