Cows

[Cashboy]

Any idea what breed of cow this is?

I estimate that it is 5 years old as it had its third calf seven weeks ago.

[kickstart]

Being technically it is a cross breed of Bos Indicus and Bos Taurus, or to me and you a crossbreed of beef and some dairy cattle.

I would say 20% dairy (about) short ears, shape of the head , at least 70% Thai native, small size and againe shot ears and the hump(Bos Indicus) .black tip to the tail.

The color I would say come from a red Brahman x 10% ? ,the red is too deep for a Thai native. length of the horns,could have come from a Brahman

Nice little bull calf,a calf from a Brahman x breed ,still got mums short ears.

A beef cow that is about 5 year old and had 3 calves is doing well,the cow looks well ,considering it has just calved,must be eating some thing good.

I think my assumption is about right ,if any one else wants to have a go....................... .

[farmerjo]

No idea with the breed,but a nice looking calf the way it stands tall on the rear end.

Looks like there is some show breeding in it to me.

[slapout]

i am more impressed with the good shape the cow appears to be in. so many cows you see here look like they are on 1/3 rations of cukkle burs or milk and tumble weed. you can count the ribs at a distance. starving skinney best describes them.

granted we let cows come down in weight in winter due to feed avaliabe/cost, etc plus we did not want fat cows come spring calving time, but so many ows what i see would be hard pressed to sell as at a decent ''packers''. price. livestock deserve a decent ration and a full belly if your going to mind them.

seldom see cows in thialand and other parts of se asia laying down chewing their cud, a good sign of contentment.

[kickstart]

I agree with you,a nice looking cow ,if my assumption is right "Thai Native" as the name say's is native to Thailand,small hardy animale,can live on a por diet, a good breed for Thailand, I have one, a cow smaller than the op's the smallest cow we have ,we feed it less than the other cows,a first calving heifer ,now in calf 5 months ,held 1st service,will calve an Angus this year. no problem to rear.

About 8-10 years ago the big fashion in LOS was the Indo Brazil breed,tall, not fat ,with long ears,an intensive animale, needs feeding ,a not razing the hedge bottoms, and road verges breed

,All the farmers where putting the Indo bulls on to they Thai Native and Thai Native x Bramhman cows ,for many the long ears,and to give them a bigger cow ,Thai's love big cattle,and then they still go and graize them as before, but a you can see, all you get is a white/ red, thin, long eared things out grazing,with a big problem of a negative energy balance,or not getting enough to eat.

How maney of these cows are in calf,being produtive? I would say not many,but with cattle prices being still high,as I have said before there is a lot of money in those bag of bones, almost a bank on legs.

If you did a budget on Thai Native v Indo Brazil, I would say you would make more money on Thai Native,becouse they are easier to rear by far, and you can get them back in calf a lot easier by far,sell the bulls,then keep the heifers back for breeding.

[Cashboy]

Thank you for the comments.

Reading them makes me think that I have cows that are not good for milking and not good for meat?

I purchased the mother with a four week old calf in December 2013 for 29,000 bt. No idea if that was a good price or not.

I bought them because:

1) The Thai girl said they were a good investment.....................

2) The rice and sugar cane 20 rai farm looked boring to me without farm animals other than some chickens and cocks that appear to produce nothing and be pointless to me but take much of her father's time.

3) There is supposedly plenty of food for them because no other farms within at least 2 kms have cows and all the other farmers are happy to have them grazing on their land.

They have been basically eating the rice stalks and any vegetation between in the fields and all growth in the edges of the fields.

I really don't know if the mother (brown one) is considered old but she has such a good nature and seems such a good mother I would be sad to get rid of her.

How many calves and how old should she be realistically kept for?

Her new calf appears to me to be so strong and healthy.

Similarly we hired a really nice top bull (1,000 bt hire) to get this calf.

Her last calf, now 18 months old seems quite fit as well.

At what age should I attempt to get her pregnant at?

[kickstart]

You can keep her as long as you can get her in calf,5 years is not that old, these local breeds are hardy and can keep going for a good few years.

As for last years calf,now a heifer,it is not the age but the body size and weight,looking at her I would say at about 2 years old you could serve her ,that is if she comes a heat, a diet of rice stalks and local vegetation ,not an ideal diet to get cattle to come on heat,do you feed any minerals, the salt blocks are ok,and cattle love them,but they are 98% salt ,worried they might be short of minerals.

You used a bull to get her in calf,a good idea,have you thought of AI,some where near you is a Thai DLD office,Department of Livestock Development all Thai provinces have one,they should provide an AI service, it is Gom-pas-a-Sat กรมปศุสัตว์ in Thai, but you will have to build a holding race, to AI them, they may be docile,but you try and handle them for AI or for any vet work,they can kick extremely well .

As for the price not expensive,as I said the market is on a high,dairy as well a beef cattle it in August 2013 we payed 18 000 baht for a ,dairy x beef heifer,not yet in calf,still 6 months away from being able to serve her,I said to the wife that was expensive ,but as it turned out it was about the right price.

Your cow will be no good for milking,but the calf you could certainly sell him for beef,in say 2 years time.

[Cashboy]

You can keep her as long as you can get her in calf,5 years is not that old, these local breeds are hardy and can keep going for a good few years.

As for last years calf,now a heifer,it is not the age but the body size and weight,looking at her I would say at about 2 years old you could serve her ,that is if she comes a heat, a diet of rice stalks and local vegetation ,not an ideal diet to get cattle to come on heat,do you feed any minerals, the salt blocks are ok,and cattle love them,but they are 98% salt ,worried they might be short of minerals.

You used a bull to get her in calf,a good idea,have you thought of AI,some where near you is a Thai DLD office,Department of Livestock Development all Thai provinces have one,they should provide an AI service, it is Gom-pas-a-Sat กรมปศุสัตว์ in Thai, but you will have to build a holding race, to AI them, they may be docile,but you try and handle them for AI or for any vet work,they can kick extremely well .

As for the price not expensive,as I said the market is on a high,dairy as well a beef cattle it in August 2013 we payed 18 000 baht for a ,dairy x beef heifer,not yet in calf,still 6 months away from being able to serve her,I said to the wife that was expensive ,but as it turned out it was about the right price.

Your cow will be no good for milking,but the calf you could certainly sell him for beef,in say 2 years time.

Thank you for that information.

I really am reliant on you forum members for information.

I was thinking of hiring the bull (the same bull that produced that lovely calf) in January 2016 to mate with the two cows.

You mentioned salt blocks; where do I buy those from? I did notice that the new calf would always lick me and thought that it perhaps likes the taste of salt from sweating in the heat that was 38 C last week (hotter than Bangkok was).

Regarding prices, supposedly we were offered 60,000 bt for the mother (that was 6 months pregnant) and the then one year old heifer.

These cows are pets to me at the moment. I have to admit it will be sad to see them go one day.

You mentioned selling the calf when it is two years old for beef. In the UK, my farmer neighbour buys four Aberdeen Angus? calves every year and he told me that he is cheesed off because under the EC rules he has to sell them for slaughter at 30 months and he says they would be better to keep until 4 years as he used to before regulations.

[kickstart]

As for buying mineral blocks,I do not know where you are in LOS,but I think Isan,if so, and your other half works in bkk if you drive up the Friendship Highway,noth of Sarlarburi is Mortlec,home of the Thai/ Denmark milk company, and there are a lot of cows in the area,leave the main road head in to town no more thn 5 minuets,left at the clock tower, 500 yards,about,right next to the TMB bank is a shop that sells all things cows,they will have salt blocks ,and buy a small bag of mineral ( they are anther shops in town ,also some water falls near by,popular for filming Thai soap opera's ),put the minerals in a trough,give them free acsses.

Unless you have a dairy co-op near you where you live,where you can get salt blocks and minrales.

As for your farmer neighbor in the uk the 30 month regulations is all to do with BSE,been in force , since 1996 they said that cattle showing sign's of BSE where older animals,not puting cattle older then 30 mothes in to the food chain would help prevent BSE.

The last year I milked cows in the uk ,we had a few cow"s with BSE ,not nice.

Farmers rearing cattle on a traditional system,where hit hard by the 30 month rule.

[Cashboy]

I managed to find salt licks for the cows as you recommended as they have just been just grazing around the fields.

The bull is now 5 months old.

Last years heifer is now 20 months old.

The mother of both I would guess is now five years old and have had her on the farm 18 months.

What should I be doing now with these animals for welfare and investment.

Do you think the heifer will be ready to hire a bull to get her pregnant in 6 months time?

[exbikey]

As for buying mineral blocks,I do not know where you are in LOS,but I think Isan,if so, and your other half works in bkk if you drive up the Friendship Highway,noth of Sarlarburi is Mortlec,home of the Thai/ Denmark milk company, and there are a lot of cows in the area,leave the main road head in to town no more thn 5 minuets,left at the clock tower, 500 yards,about,right next to the TMB bank is a shop that sells all things cows,they will have salt blocks ,and buy a small bag of mineral ( they are anther shops in town ,also some water falls near by,popular for filming Thai soap opera's ),put the minerals in a trough,give them free acsses.

Unless you have a dairy co-op near you where you live,where you can get salt blocks and minrales.

As for your farmer neighbor in the uk the 30 month regulations is all to do with BSE,been in force , since 1996 they said that cattle showing sign's of BSE where older animals,not puting cattle older then 30 mothes in to the food chain would help prevent BSE.

The last year I milked cows in the uk ,we had a few cow"s with BSE ,not nice.

Farmers rearing cattle on a traditional system,where hit hard by the 30 month rule.

ThaiVisa advice at its best.

I nominate Kickstart as poster of the year

[Allgeier]

The last year I milked cows in the uk ,we had a few cow"s with BSE ,not nice.

And why there got BSE? Because ......

[stoneyboy]

BSE came about through feeding cattle with meat and bone meal.

Allowing the infection to spread easily.

A British and Irish inquiry into BSE concluded the epizootic was caused by cattle, which are normally herbivores, being fed the remains of other cattle in the form of meat and bone meal (MBM), which caused the infectious agent to spread.[8][9] The cause of BSE may be from the contamination of MBM from sheep with scrapie that were processed in the same slaughterhouse. The epidemic was probably accelerated by the recycling of infected bovine tissues prior to the recognition of BSE.[10] The origin of the disease itself remains unknown. The infectious agent is distinctive for the high temperatures at which it remains viable, over 600 °C (about 1100 °F).[11] This contributed to the spread of the disease in the United Kingdom, which had reduced the temperatures used during its rendering process.[8] Another contributory factor was the feeding of infected protein supplements to very young calves.[8][12]

[Allgeier]

BSE came about through feeding cattle with meat and bone meal.

And now i ask again: "What is the reason why a Farmer should feed meat meal to a grass eater?

Not enough profit on the grass or?

[stoneyboy]

BSE came about through feeding cattle with meat and bone meal.

And now i ask again: "What is the reason why a Farmer should feed meat meal to a grass eater?

Not enough profit on the grass or?

Your barking up the wrong tree old cock,I have no interest in cattle farming whatsoever,and have no connection to feeding meat meal to any cows anywhere in the world.

Your not French buy any chance are you ?

[Allgeier]

I am not barking you up. You are only this one who answer my questions.

No, i am not French.

[Allgeier]

how to delete a post?

[Cashboy]

Your cow will be no good for milking,but the calf you could certainly sell him for beef,in say 2 years time.

You state that the bull calf can be sold after two years for beef.

Surely the calf is not fully grown at only two years old?

Or are you saying this because that is the age that you get the best return on him; i.e. cost of feeding him (nothing for us) in relation to weight gain?

[kickstart]

BSE came about through feeding cattle with meat and bone meal.

And now i ask again: "What is the reason why a Farmer should feed meat meal to a grass eater?

Not enough profit on the grass or?

Simple answer money. meat and bone meal is a cheap form of high protein a high protein meat and bone meal is about 59 % protein ,considering most cereals feed to cattle are 11% protein, worth using ,keeps the cost down as Wikipedia said it was not cooked at a high enough tempter to kill all the harmful bacteria.

Also at the time some feed company's where using poultry manure as a feed ingredient ,poultry manure contains a lot of urea ,urea is again a cheap form of high protein ,also when the poultry manure was cooked it was not at a high enough temperature ,like meat and bone meal ,harmful bacteria where not killed ,what I can remember ,they was no slandered time and temperature for treating poultry manure ,so the Department of Agriculture and the feed company got it in the neck, so they banned the feeding of any form animal waste to be feed to cattle ,of course by then it was to late ,why would farmers feed the above ? I think most did not know ,when the salesman visited us ,we asked what was the price of the feed he was selling ,and the ME,( the measurement t of energy of a feed),not what the ingredients where. And we feed most in the winter when the cows where in the sheds ,and no grass to eat.

@ cash boy

With that heifer I would say in six months time ,you could get her in calf ,but as I said before ,that is if she come on heat ,has she come on heat yet ?,the mineral blocks will help, improve fertilely, but only eating rough grass ,and this year being so dry ,she will not be that fertile ,as we use to say ,she is fat not fit , if you can find some cheap feed 14% or 16% mixed feed would do ,the pellets are to dear ,not cost effective,1-2 kg a day would push her along ,I am certain would help her to come on heat.

For there welfare worm treatment would not do them any harm ,you could inject them ,that is if you can handle them, or to liquid wormer that you pore along the line of the back ,good stuff but at 1800 Bart a bottle ,expensive .or if you have some feed ,you could use the boluses ,worm tablets you mix in the feed ,they are good ,no need to handle the cattle .

[slapout]

There was / is some talk of feeding cattle by produt which can be and in some cases is mixed in with some of the commercial feed on the market,will contribute to or cause ''mad cow desease''. The articles i have read give no indication of a % of those that will be affected, amount they consume, what by product, etc. They say the samr about human cannabilism and a human dease which resembles mad cow desease.

[nutterz64]

Cashboy. You have bought at a good price compared to what i am hearkng up here in Udon Thani. Can you tell me which province you are in. My girl is asking because her father just bought a cow and calf for 70000 baht which i thought was too much.

Thanks

Peter

[kickstart]

Cashboy. You have bought at a good price compared to what i am hearkng up here in Udon Thani. Can you tell me which province you are in. My girl is asking because her father just bought a cow and calf for 70000 baht which i thought was too much.

Thanks

Peter

When buying cattle it all depends on breed cashboys cow is a "Tam-Ada" an ordinary cow, what he pay was about right ,and at the time ,it was about the right price in April 2013 we payed 10 000 Bart for a Thai native heifer( a Tam- Ada ) ,a good animal she is to ,just had her second calf last week . if we sold her ,now we would get about 35 000 Bart, with calf .

And cattle prices are still going up ,especially breeding cattle ,though, beef prices have dropped back a bit just lately .

I would say ,but with out looking at it ,that it would be a Indo Brazil ,cross breed ,just look at the ears if they are long ,and it is tall ,long legs ,it will be an Indo Brazil and if it is red ,then 70 000 would be about right ,near me( central Lopburi) ,a guy paid 60 000 bart for a red Indo heifer , in calf almost 2 years ago.

Why are they so expensive ? Thai's think of them as an investment ,hoping the price will go up ,selling the offspring for breeding, a fashion thing , and probably a status symbol thing to .

Can you post a photo ,would help .

Yours Regs

KS

[nutterz64]

Thanks for the feedback KS. Attached are a couple of picks of the two he just bought.

He had just sold a cow, her heifer and young bull for 100000 and then bought these two for 70000. I really couldnt make sense of that.

Cheers

[kickstart]

Thanks for the photos looking at them I would say that they are about 65% Indo Brazil and 35 % Brahman,as you said why he brought a cow and a bull .and sold a cow with a heifer ,and a bull especially as the heifer is worth a lot more,probably thinks sold 3 animals ,brought 2 ,made 30 000 Bart ,unless he thinks these 2 are better cattle with longer ears.

The photos I posted ,the cow is our Thai native ,and her Angus heifer calf ,born last week(it was tea time ) ,as I said we could sell her for about 35 000 Bart ,she is an easy cow to rear, we got her in calf 1st service ,we feed her less than the other cows., last years calf was a bull , we sold him for 20 000 Bart ,not over big but fit ,a good beef animal for Thailand ,but alas not in fashion.

I put in the photo of our bull as a compare and contrast ,his mother is a Thai Native X Brahman ,he is a cross of Khow Lampung ,a local northern breed .Thai native and some Angus ,he is about 1 year old a local cattle dealer said he would buy him for 32 000 Bart ,does not eat a lot .1kg of concentrate ,+brewers grains, a day ,grass silage ,and the tree legume Gratin in Thai, now at last we have had some rain .some grass to eat .

The bull in your photo probably only gets grass to eat ,but even if he was fed a proper diet he would never get fat ,it is the breed ,all legs and ears ,and they are an intensive animal ,meant to be feed ,not just living on hedge bottom grass ,Google Indo Brazil ,and look at the breed ,would not get many stakes from them .

TV members are posting " why are Thai cattle so thin " ,the answer is mainly above ,and not getting any proper feed, they are the in thing ,and Thais think they is a lot of money in them .

Some think that the Indo breed has buggered up the Thai beef industry , now no proper beef breeds ,like the Thai native ,and the Brahman crosses ,that could still grow and get fat on a hedge bottom diet , now the Indo blood is in most Thai cattle ,and it will take a lot of years to breed it out ,if ever.

Yours Regs

KS

[nutterz64]

Hey Kickstart, thanks for the education on the background of the breeds here. As an Aussie, who has spent quite a bit of time living in Queensland cattle country, I have been looking at these cattle in the northeast with a degree of puzzlement. Can clearly see the Brahman heritage in many but could not work out the rest of it. I have been considering purchasing a few local heifers and then using some suitable straws from a European breed to develop my own cross to improve carcass yields, FCR and turnout times. I am thinking of buying either some of the small Thai natives or pure Brahman if I can find them as starter cows and then doing a second cross with their heifers.

I concede that it is probably a risky business doing this but what the hell, should be fun. Started with pigs the same way a year and a half ago it is now going great guns.

Love to pop down and see you one day KS. I am currently back in Oz but will be back home in late October. Heading down your way to the Issan Farmers meeting on the 31st of October in Si Sa-kit. Maybe we can make a detour on the way if it suits you.

Cheers

Peter

P.S. Nice looking Bull mate.

[kickstart]

Hey Kickstart, thanks for the education on the background of the breeds here. As an Aussie, who has spent quite a bit of time living in Queensland cattle country, I have been looking at these cattle in the northeast with a degree of puzzlement. Can clearly see the Brahman heritage in many but could not work out the rest of it. I have been considering purchasing a few local heifers and then using some suitable straws from a European breed to develop my own cross to improve carcass yields, FCR and turnout times. I am thinking of buying either some of the small Thai natives or pure Brahman if I can find them as starter cows and then doing a second cross with their heifers.

I concede that it is probably a risky business doing this but what the hell, should be fun. Started with pigs the same way a year and a half ago it is now going great guns.

Love to pop down and see you one day KS. I am currently back in Oz but will be back home in late October. Heading down your way to the Issan Farmers meeting on the 31st of October in Si Sa-kit. Maybe we can make a detour on the way if it suits you.

Cheers

Peter

P.S. Nice looking Bull mate.

It an be risky business as it is long term, breeding cattle and this being Thailand prices are not that stable ,they have been for 3 years now, but they could drop at any time ,but if you have some decent cattle you can weather the storm ,and still make a bit .

I have said on other posts where I live is in a big dairy area ,we have most breed available ,Angus, Charolais, Brahman, and even Beefmaster semen .

same with feeds ,most feedstuffs are available .

Where you are I would guess you only have the DLD, the Government livestock Department AI men ,on the beef semen side, they will have Brahman ,red and white ,some might have some Charolaise and some Angus ,what I have read on the internet ,a lot of Angus semen has been imported into Thailand , where that is I do not know ,were you are , you could be limited on breed choice, ask at your local DLD office , Gom-Pas-Soo- sat,in Thai

If you are going to buy some heifers ,then use Angus semen ,small easy cavers ,can stand the heat ,Charolaise would be too big for a heifer ,could have some calving problems ,I am going to try a beef master on one of my cows this year .

You would be welcome to visit us here ,I will have to buy a new broom and tidy the place up a bit, lol.

All the best

KS

[grimleybob]

The DLD have also been experimenting with Brahman X Simmental and selling the heifers to local farmers. These would produce fabulous beef when crossed with Angus.

[Cashboy]

Here is a picture of the bull, 18 months later.

What should we do with him? Keep him for breeding ? Sell him for beef, how old should he be sold at?

The problem with him is that when he was a calf he used to come running accross the field to play with me and the children. The trouble now is that he is much the same but weighs a lot now and therefore dangerous.

His mother is pregnant again,We are hoping for a female this time.

Her daughter is also pregnant and also due soon.

So hopefully there will be a herd of five within the next couple of months.

These cows have cost nothing on food except mineral/salt blocks (they don't seem that keen on them as these blocks last more than 6 months).

What feed should I be buying them, especially for the dry season?

[kickstart]

Hi Cashboy

How long is a length of string ,our next door neighbour has 10-12 beef cattle ,he dose nothing to them ,just moves them around for fresh grazing ,he gets a calf about every 18- 20 months, has a bull that serves his cows . low impute management

Our set up ,we make grass silage ,cut Gratin now almost every day , feed a bit of concentrate ,we use AI ,and get a calf every year ,just served a heifer ,a fit Brahman x 16 months old .

Now who would make more money ,our system getting a calf a year, with a higher impute , and we get a good price when we sell the bulls or heifers , or our neighbour getting a calf every 18-20 ,keeping a bull, which could be sold and use AI instead ,and his low impute system .but he did sell two Brahman x bulls one was 3 years old plus the other 2 years old, he went out and brought a old tractor and rotavator for his about 15 Rie of rice.

Your bull get a local cattle dealer to look at him, I would say you could get about 18- 20 000 Bart ,for him ,which on your system would be almost all profit .

Looking at him he has not got a lot of breeding value, you can not use him your self, blood line problem ,worried about him getting dangerous, I would sell him ,or see if you could do a swop for a young heifer ,we have a local cattle dealer who does that a lot .

As for feeding ,I would feed your in calf heifer ,when she calves ,she will lose weight ,all cattle do after calving ,feeding a bit of concentrate helps prevents the weight loss, and she should come on heat quicker ,so you can get her in calf sooner ,the cost of the feed should pay for its self ,by getting her back in calf sooner ,than if she was on just a forage diet .feed her up to about 100 days after calving, she should have come on heat by then .

As for a dry season feed ,job to say it is all right buying in feed ,but that is a cost if it has been like this years dry season ,a long hot one, that could get expensive ,so I have been told you do not have Gratin in Isan ,or not a lot ,pity that is a good dry season feed for cattle ,could look on the internet for "urea treated rice straw, "not over cheap to make, and labour intensive ,or grow some grass irrigate it ,you would have to use some urea fertilizer ,and cut and cart the grass ,again labour intensive, but growing your own feed is a lot cheaper than buying in feed .