Palm trees planted to deep

[TheCruncher]

I had today a palm tree moved a few meters by the local garden shop, and pointed him to the fact that I have problems with several palm trees that won't grow properly.

The trees are in a lawn that get watered automatically, so the trees get the same amount of water as the grass.

He didn't speak English, and I no Thai, but I could understand that the trees originally were planted a few cm too deep. He pointed me to where the soil should reach.

Now digging out all those trees and lifting them is a labor intensive job, so my question is, if it will have the same effect if I just remove 5 or 10 cm of soil around the tree.

In that case the lawn will actually be higher than the soil around the tree.

Will this be sufficient?

[drtreelove]

Lawn irrigation will be too much for most palms, even with proper planting depth. It depends a lot on what kind of palm and what it's native growing conditions are, arid zone or heavy rainfall climate origin. It also depends on the soil and if it is sandy and drains well, or heavy clay that doesn't.

If any trees are planted too low in a lawn area, clearing the soil down to the top of the root collar may help, but may not be enough. Because now, especially with clayey soil, you have a basin where water will pool at the base and stay wet too long without being able to drain. You may have created conditions that favor root and stem rot fungal infections.

You may need to dig and raise them up, or better yet, relocate outside of the lawn area, where you can manage the water appropriately for the palms. Or alternatively, re-purpose the lawn area and plant a ground cover that will be more compatible with the palm water management.

Be aware that palms have special soil fertility needs and often get chlorotic (yellowed foliage) and decline because of specific nutrient deficiencies. Nitrogen, Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies are common. I use soil testing and prescription soil mineral amendments, or I use general purpose palm fertilizer, Palm Pro from Growth Products. http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/arbor_care.asp?tables=featured&product=71

Palms also can get insect pests that should be monitored for and prevented with IPM (Integrated Pest Management).

[TheCruncher]

Lawn irrigation will be too much for most palms, even with proper planting depth. It depends a lot on what kind of palm and what it's native growing conditions are, arid zone or heavy rainfall climate origin. It also depends on the soil and if it is sandy and drains well, or heavy clay that doesn't.

If any trees are planted too low in a lawn area, clearing the soil down to the top of the root collar may help, but may not be enough. Because now, especially with clayey soil, you have a basin where water will pool at the base and stay wet too long without being able to drain. You may have created conditions that favor root and stem rot fungal infections.

You may need to dig and raise them up, or better yet, relocate outside of the lawn area, where you can manage the water appropriately for the palms. Or alternatively, re-purpose the lawn area and plant a ground cover that will be more compatible with the palm water management.

Be aware that palms have special soil fertility needs and often get chlorotic (yellowed foliage) and decline because of specific nutrient deficiencies. Nitrogen, Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies are common. I use soil testing and prescription soil mineral amendments, or I use general purpose palm fertilizer, Palm Pro from Growth Products. http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/arbor_care.asp?tables=featured&product=71

Palms also can get insect pests that should be monitored for and prevented with IPM (Integrated Pest Management).

Thanks for the reply, I was actually waiting for you.

First let me make clear that moving them out of the lawn area is out of the possibilities.

The trees I'm talking about are fox tails and the ones like you will see in the left of the picture, but from which I don't know the name.

The tree they moved today is the fox tail far right in the picture. As you see all fox tails were about same hight at the time of the picture, but now that tree was at least 1 meter taller than all the others.I also notice that the grow rings of this tree are about 15 cm apart, while those of the other trees are maybe 5 cm or less apart.

The reason I think may be because there is an irrigation spray head about half a meter next to the tree, and that is also one of the reasons I moved it, so when I add fertilizer to the lawn through the irrigation system this tree get the full load. Maybe you also will notice from the picture that the lawn slopes towards the wall, so this tree gets actually the most water of all.

I was just reading up on fertilizing trees, and will add fertilizer directly to the trees in the future.

My soil has a high clay content,but is actually the top layer that contains the clay, since it was Cassava land before, and I was delivered clay soil instead of proper top layer soil.

So I would think the deeper the roots the better in my case. Please correct if I'm wrong.

I also noticed when they moved the tree today, when they started digging, the soil had a foul smell. I think the smell came from the top layer.

So would your comments apply to my specific situation, or is another approach advisable?

Edited May 9, 2015 by TheCruncher

[NeverSure]

Drtreelove is spot on. What he didn't mention is that the roots need oxygen. (He said it without saying it in so many words.) Your odor might be from anaerobic bacteria or other microorganisms that grow best in a low oxygen environment. This would indicate either too much clay which won't breath, or stagnant water or both. All of that could come from the presence of clay in that environment.

There are only a few types of what we call water plants (like water lilies) which can actually grow with their feet in water. It will kill most plants due to lack of oxygen.

I'm going to back out and let Drtreelove figure out the answer because he knows more than I do. I just wanted to get the word oxygen in there.

Cheers.

[TheCruncher]

Drtreelove is spot on. What he didn't mention is that the roots need oxygen. (He said it without saying it in so many words.) Your odor might be from anaerobic bacteria or other microorganisms that grow best in a low oxygen environment. This would indicate either too much clay which won't breath, or stagnant water or both. All of that could come from the presence of clay in that environment.

There are only a few types of what we call water plants (like water lilies) which can actually grow with their feet in water. It will kill most plants due to lack of oxygen.

I'm going to back out and let Drtreelove figure out the answer because he knows more than I do. I just wanted to get the word oxygen in there.

Cheers.

Thanks for pointing out, but as I said that the clay in my soil is mainly in the top layer, I take it that I can solve that issue with removing the top layer assuming that it is the top layer that blocks the oxygen getting to the roots.

[cooked]

I would indeed raise the plants if you want to save them, in fact I would make sure they were at least 15 cm higher than the surrounding lawn, planted on something containing sand ot perlite for drainage. If you can't do this yourself it will cost something but those trees don't look too big to me. You mat lose one or two. No fertiliser initially after planting, let the roots go look for food and stabilise the tree.

[piersbeckett]

Lawn irrigation will be too much for most palms, even with proper planting depth. It depends a lot on what kind of palm and what it's native growing conditions are, arid zone or heavy rainfall climate origin. It also depends on the soil and if it is sandy and drains well, or heavy clay that doesn't.

If any trees are planted too low in a lawn area, clearing the soil down to the top of the root collar may help, but may not be enough. Because now, especially with clayey soil, you have a basin where water will pool at the base and stay wet too long without being able to drain. You may have created conditions that favor root and stem rot fungal infections.

You may need to dig and raise them up, or better yet, relocate outside of the lawn area, where you can manage the water appropriately for the palms. Or alternatively, re-purpose the lawn area and plant a ground cover that will be more compatible with the palm water management.

Be aware that palms have special soil fertility needs and often get chlorotic (yellowed foliage) and decline because of specific nutrient deficiencies. Nitrogen, Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies are common. I use soil testing and prescription soil mineral amendments, or I use general purpose palm fertilizer, Palm Pro from Growth Products. http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/arbor_care.asp?tables=featured&product=71

Palms also can get insect pests that should be monitored for and prevented with IPM (Integrated Pest Management).

With respect, what about extending area surrounding stem to say just over a metre, digging to root collar level, carefully driving a rod to say a depth of 600cm below root collar level & inserting pipes, sat two opposite each other for aeration and watering then mulching to lawn level?

[cooked]

Lawn irrigation will be too much for most palms, even with proper planting depth. It depends a lot on what kind of palm and what it's native growing conditions are, arid zone or heavy rainfall climate origin. It also depends on the soil and if it is sandy and drains well, or heavy clay that doesn't.

If any trees are planted too low in a lawn area, clearing the soil down to the top of the root collar may help, but may not be enough. Because now, especially with clayey soil, you have a basin where water will pool at the base and stay wet too long without being able to drain. You may have created conditions that favor root and stem rot fungal infections.

You may need to dig and raise them up, or better yet, relocate outside of the lawn area, where you can manage the water appropriately for the palms. Or alternatively, re-purpose the lawn area and plant a ground cover that will be more compatible with the palm water management.

Be aware that palms have special soil fertility needs and often get chlorotic (yellowed foliage) and decline because of specific nutrient deficiencies. Nitrogen, Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies are common. I use soil testing and prescription soil mineral amendments, or I use general purpose palm fertilizer, Palm Pro from Growth Products. http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/arbor_care.asp?tables=featured&product=71

Palms also can get insect pests that should be monitored for and prevented with IPM (Integrated Pest Management).

With respect, what about extending area surrounding stem to say just over a metre, digging to root collar level, carefully driving a rod to say a depth of 600cm below root collar level & inserting pipes, sat two opposite each other for aeration and watering then mulching to lawn level?

Won't work.

[TheCruncher]

I have raised all the tress, well I hired someone to do it for me. so that the root collar is above the lawn.

Should I give them plenty of water in the next few weeks or just the opposite?

[cooked]

I have raised all the tress, well I hired someone to do it for me. so that the root collar is above the lawn.

Should I give them plenty of water in the next few weeks or just the opposite?

That is the tricky bit. They should be drenched initially so that the roots are adequately surrounded and enveloped in soil. Too much water will obviously not be good thereafter, but the severed roots will need some time before they are in a state of equilibrium with the foliage. Maybe a watering can full of water every day / two days , per tree, but you need to keep a keen eye for signs of over watering. Good luck with that but I think you will be ok.

[TheCruncher]

So it is now more than a month that I raised the trees.

None of them has solid footing yet to add a hammock to it, as I can feel that they still move a little when I pull by hand.

It isn't really worrying, however the smallest of all is so loose in the ground that I can make it move with 2 fingers.

Is this normal and how long should I consider before they are solid enough in the ground to withstand a hammock attached to it?

[naveed19]

hi guys i am new here and planing to vist thailand in few mounths for buying fruit plants if any one knows about nurseries who selling grafted fruit plants plz let me know it would be great help . thanks

[kannot]

Lawn irrigation will be too much for most palms, even with proper planting depth. It depends a lot on what kind of palm and what it's native growing conditions are, arid zone or heavy rainfall climate origin. It also depends on the soil and if it is sandy and drains well, or heavy clay that doesn't.

If any trees are planted too low in a lawn area, clearing the soil down to the top of the root collar may help, but may not be enough. Because now, especially with clayey soil, you have a basin where water will pool at the base and stay wet too long without being able to drain. You may have created conditions that favor root and stem rot fungal infections.

You may need to dig and raise them up, or better yet, relocate outside of the lawn area, where you can manage the water appropriately for the palms. Or alternatively, re-purpose the lawn area and plant a ground cover that will be more compatible with the palm water management.

Be aware that palms have special soil fertility needs and often get chlorotic (yellowed foliage) and decline because of specific nutrient deficiencies. Nitrogen, Magnesium and Potassium deficiencies are common. I use soil testing and prescription soil mineral amendments, or I use general purpose palm fertilizer, Palm Pro from Growth Products. http://www.growthproducts.com/pages/arbor_care.asp?tables=featured&product=71

Palms also can get insect pests that should be monitored for and prevented with IPM (Integrated Pest Management).

Thanks for the reply, I was actually waiting for you.

First let me make clear that moving them out of the lawn area is out of the possibilities.

The trees I'm talking about are fox tails and the ones like you will see in the left of the picture, but from which I don't know the name.

The tree they moved today is the fox tail far right in the picture. As you see all fox tails were about same hight at the time of the picture, but now that tree was at least 1 meter taller than all the others.I also notice that the grow rings of this tree are about 15 cm apart, while those of the other trees are maybe 5 cm or less apart.

From sala.jpg

The reason I think may be because there is an irrigation spray head about half a meter next to the tree, and that is also one of the reasons I moved it, so when I add fertilizer to the lawn through the irrigation system this tree get the full load. Maybe you also will notice from the picture that the lawn slopes towards the wall, so this tree gets actually the most water of all.

I was just reading up on fertilizing trees, and will add fertilizer directly to the trees in the future.

My soil has a high clay content,but is actually the top layer that contains the clay, since it was Cassava land before, and I was delivered clay soil instead of proper top layer soil.

So I would think the deeper the roots the better in my case. Please correct if I'm wrong.

I also noticed when they moved the tree today, when they started digging, the soil had a foul smell. I think the smell came from the top layer.

So would your comments apply to my specific situation, or is another approach advisable?

The other tree is Adonidia/Veitchia merrillii............ps all my trees have sprinklers on them