What happens to the food believers put in front of statues?

[mike324]

Sorry, last two questions and then I will stop. I can imagine your guys get a bit tired of me. But I have learned a lot. My complete ignorance of a few days ago is gone.

1) If as you say Thai praying is different than the praying which for example Christians do, then what is the purpose of praying for a Thai? I mean if no God/spirit listens then why pray? What gain does it give the person? A better Karma? But for Karma to be enhanced does that happen automatically when you do good? There is no conscious Being involved which sees you doing good and adding to your Karma? So it is just a process of nature. When you do good Karma is incremented automatically? Like when you drop a ball it will fall to the ground by law of nature, without any active involvement of a God? So when a Thai prays and goes to Temple it is only for a few Karma 'coins' to be added to his balance and he thinks that goes automatically?

2) I do have a Thai friend who says "I bought flowers for Buddha today. I hope it gives me good luck".

Until now I interpreted this that he thinks Buddha is still there and watches him and sometimes is actively involved in giving him good luck. If that interpretation is wrong, then what does he mean when he says this?

1.) As a Taoist and Buddhist myself, here is the low down. Most Buddhist DO believe in a "spirit/god" of Buddha being there listening to their prayers. That is why they pray and ask for protection, luck, etc That is why a statue is so sacred, and why those that are more religious believe statues hold great power for protection etc. Most Buddhist will pray to Hindu Gods, Taoist Gods, pretty much all of the different Asian gods and deities.

2.) Yes you are correct, pretty much all Buddhist believes he is there watching over and listening.

[mike324]

Welcome to the world of syncretized religion. Thai Buddhism has incorporated many local beliefs and superstition as well as a lot of Hinduism. Some Thais are not aware that the trimurti statue (Rama, Krishna, Vishnu) in front of Central World, along with the Statue of Ganesh are not Buddhist but are actually representations of Hindu gods. The same goes for the statue at the Rajaprasong intersection by the Erawan Hotel.

I'm pretty sure most Thais know the difference between a Hindu god and Buddha statue. Most Buddhist in Thailand pray to HIndu, Taoist gods/deities, or anything that gives them luck, success, etc.

[tifino]

...and don't forget those extra-powerful female gods...

... the house here is full'of'em

[MRH1959]

Think of it like the 'Fishermans' belief of throwing the first caught back, so you have a better catch for the day.

Blessing the spirits, Buddha, The King with food/gifts, is a belief of giving a little whilst asking for those 'required needs' of life [happiness, good health, peace, long life] and believing that by offering these 'goods', your life will become 'plentiful and worry free'.

This is just a minor insight to the beliefs.

As for the food-sometimes it is given to the local needy, or just takes the 'usual' way of being discarded.

[dotpoom]

I asked my Thai wife questions along the same lines when we were with each other a while......her answer was..."I don't know"....we just do it because people before us did it. I asked her did she think The Buddha was alive like God is alive to people who believe...or is he dead as far as they were concerned.....same answer....."I don't know". So, I said....in other words you don't know what you believe?....to which I got a blank stare. Never broought the subject up again.

[chilli42]

You may know this but Budhism and those spirit houses with the figurines (with the food, drinks, etc). Are absolutely not the same thing. If you are asking about the spirit houses you won't insult anyone by asking the questions you have.

[elgordo38]

All I can tell you is the pigeons around our condo are getting more numerous and fatter and bolder.

[zeichen]

I think everything after post 27 should be deleted. Nothing useful or relevant has been stated after the OP's follow up questions.

[aronp1]

The little houses are spirit houses. The spirit that looks over you and that is who the food is for. The food is also left out at buisnesses to please the spirits for a prosperous day then is thrown out at the end of the day.

[Konini]

No joke, there is a short haired English lady about 60 years old who around 9:00 am will go to a few shops and eat as well as drink whisky from the Buddha plates.

Would she be doing this for good luck as alluded to by Tifino? It's hard to believe that there would be any other reason unless she is 'eccentric' as we tend to call our odd and possibly mentally challenged oldies. No matter how lovingly prepared, and I assume this is the case rather than a bit of grub being slopped onto a plate, the food would be exposed to the elements and insects (and possibly other animals) so would not be hygienically fit for consumption if you were to be doing it just for the sake of it.

By the way - this topic is very interesting. Thanks to all who are participating and explaining things in terms we can understand - or at least understand enough to generate another question.

[tifino]

'lovingly prepared' can tend to be an understatement many-a-time.

pick on the fruits: - an orange, carefully peeled and segmented, and then, all the little white flecks of the internal linings are all removed, as are the pips too. Most of the time even the membrane around the segments are carefully removed.

Monks don't use those pointy knives that you'n'I would use,

so all seen in front of them are the forks/spoons,

and there's no utensils placed with the foods offered at the statues.

( forks and spoons are okay for your missus for her god-house BTW, as will a glass of liqueur for the god-hose-spirits to enjoy)

Being no utensils for cutting, a dragon fruit for example will already be prepared, by slicing in two, and a spoon will be left handy for scooping out...

In the Temple, when all the food is being prepared for the monk(s) to eat; there's also a separate multiple dish setting for the Statue of the temple.

These dishes comprise a small sample of each and every food that has been prepared. If the monk gets some custard apple, then so shall the statue etc etc

After the monk(s) eat, and the following prayers, the followers get to consume the food remaining, and the choice food partaken will be the selection that had been placed at the statue.

(the ladies there tell me it's the real-lucky food, not to be missed )

[Goosood]

1.) As a Taoist and Buddhist myself, here is the low down.

So you believe in all these Asian Gods? They really exist? There really are many Gods and they are involved actively in the world?

You believe that as a Buddhist? Why else pray to many of them?

Is the God of the Jews/Christians/Muslims one of these, or in your view that one does not exist, but all others do? (I myself am not religious at all by the way).

What I also don't understand. Buddhist want to reach Nirvana. To escape the rebirth cycle. But I also read that that realm is almost without consciousness. I mean how can unconsciousness be seen as a good thing? Isn't it better to be reborn? Then you remain conscious of being alive.

Also a rich person should be able to receive much karma (he can do a lot of good). Why should he try to escape the rebirth cycle? He can be assured of a good next rebirth with even more fun.

Why should he pay reference to Buddha who if he follows him 100% will mean he becomes unconscious and escapes the rebirth cycle. How does this differ from death? Why try to reach this death state?

Edited May 13, 2015 by Goosood

[Goosood]

2.) Yes you are correct, pretty much all Buddhist believes he is there watching over and listening.

Thanks. You realise you say the complete opposite than other experts in this thread? I don't know now what to believe. Very frustrating for me to be honest.

But if you are right than Buddha in practice is for the bulk of the population a God. You pray to him, he listens and helps you.

[connda]

Additional grub for the cats, dogs, birds, other wildlife, and farang husbands. "Honey, I make dinner for youuuu!"

[connda]

Does the wifey give food directly to Buddha? Maybe. But a lot more goes to the spirits and fairies surrounding almost everything: trees, houses, fences, bushes, shrubs, deceased ancestors, wax dolls, figurines, pictures of Thai, Buddhist, Hindu, saints - My wife will wring luck out of any entity willing to help out. So afterwards the dogs and I eat pretty well. Not very hungry spirits, they never eat much. lol

I don't do the Animism thing, but I don't tangle with my wife's belief system either. And other than knowing that I'm Buddhist (more along the lines of a forest monk), she doesn't tangle in my belief system either. And we all eat well. lol

[connda]

2.) Yes you are correct, pretty much all Buddhist believes he is there watching over and listening.

Thanks. You realise you say the complete opposite than other experts in this thread? I don't know now what to believe. Very frustrating for me to be honest.

But if you are right than Buddha in practice is for the bulk of the population a God. You pray to him, he listens and helps you.

Buddha would have had a good laugh at people thinking he was a God, well, after chastising them for holding that belief.

I refer to most Thai Buddhists are 'Buddhist flavoured Animists'. And the animism is a lot deeper and more ancient than the Buddhism. Understand that, and you'll have a better handle on the situation.

[Docno]

To be honest, I don't think most westerners (including myself) 'get' Buddhism as it actually practiced. We often have an idealised version in our heads that may even be informed by reading books on the subject, including the Pali Canon. From that perspective, Buddhism can come across as more of a philosophy or school of psychology rather than a traditional religion. A beautiful, insightful, and inspiring philosophy at that. But people are people, and we probably have an almost instinctual need to deal with the unpredictability of life and the uncertainty surrounding death. They need an all-powerful and sympathetic 'man in the sky' that will aid and comfort them in their time of need. Thai Buddhists are no different. Contrary to what some are saying here, they will pray to Buddha for 'favours' and if granted those favours, will bring donations/alms to the local temple, etc. Some will, of course, be more 'sophisticated' in their beliefs and realise that such practices aren't really consistent with the Buddhist view of 'how things work', but I suspect that even they will resort to a god ol' fashioned prayer in difficult times.

In my experience, Thais are very open about discussing such things. They usually assume that foreigners are clueless about Buddhism and they are happy to share their understanding and knowledge. I've even found that many are aware of which of their practices amount to what we might call superstition or 'old religion' rather than formal Buddhism (for example, most seem to realise that spirit houses are not part of Buddhist 'doctrine').

[connda]

1.) As a Taoist and Buddhist myself, here is the low down.

So you believe in all these Asian Gods? They really exist? There really are many Gods and they are involved actively in the world?

You believe that as a Buddhist? Why else pray to many of them?

Is the God of the Jews/Christians/Muslims one of these, or in your view that one does not exist, but all others do? (I myself am not religious at all by the way).

What I also don't understand. Buddhist want to reach Nirvana. To escape the rebirth cycle. But I also read that that realm is almost without consciousness. I mean how can unconsciousness be seen as a good thing? Isn't it better to be reborn? Then you remain conscious of being alive.

Also a rich person should be able to receive much karma (he can do a lot of good). Why should he try to escape the rebirth cycle? He can be assured of a good next rebirth with even more fun.

Why should he pay reference to Buddha who if he follows him 100% will mean he becomes unconscious and escapes the rebirth cycle. How does this differ from death? Why try to reach this death state?

So you believe in all these Asian Gods? They really exist? There really are many Gods and they are involved actively in the world? ...

You gotta love Buddhism and it's apparent contradictions, which if you understand correctly, are not contradictions.

There is no God in Buddhism. Buddha was not God, nor is he now. For all intents and purposes, Buddhism is a-theistic, or simply not about God. Are there gods, and spirits, and entities, and demons, and heaven, and hells in Buddhist cosmology? There sure is. Is this the core of what the Buddha taught? Nope. He taught a method to find a way out of suffering. So is Buddhism a religion? No, and yes.

So, what to do if you can't grasp it. Concentrate on your breathe for 30 minutes twice a day, live a moral life, and let life unfold as it may. As one of my teachers said, do that and "you'll be a Buddhist and you won't even know it."

You can spend your life studying it, or you can spend your life practising it. I suggest the latter. You'll never figure it out intellectually. lol Metta.

Edited May 13, 2015 by connda

[Docno]

1.) As a Taoist and Buddhist myself, here is the low down.

So you believe in all these Asian Gods? They really exist? There really are many Gods and they are involved actively in the world?

You believe that as a Buddhist? Why else pray to many of them?

Is the God of the Jews/Christians/Muslims one of these, or in your view that one does not exist, but all others do? (I myself am not religious at all by the way).

What I also don't understand. Buddhist want to reach Nirvana. To escape the rebirth cycle. But I also read that that realm is almost without consciousness. I mean how can unconsciousness be seen as a good thing? Isn't it better to be reborn? Then you remain conscious of being alive.

Also a rich person should be able to receive much karma (he can do a lot of good). Why should he try to escape the rebirth cycle? He can be assured of a good next rebirth with even more fun.

Why should he pay reference to Buddha who if he follows him 100% will mean he becomes unconscious and escapes the rebirth cycle. How does this differ from death? Why try to reach this death state?

You are looking at these things from a western perspective that views life as a good thing and a place called 'heaven' as even better ... kind of life++. Buddhists understand that life involves suffering, discontent, etc (dukkha). Though we undeniably (can) have happy moments, those moments inevitably end, and if they last, the joy we get inevitably fades. We will all eventually get old, get sick, and die.. and we will see loved ones die before us. This is the suffering that is part of life. [And don't forget that many/most people are born into lives that are much more horrid than our own -- think, for example, of the Rohingya we've been reading about lately]. But Buddha taught about how we can reduce/end this suffering, both in this life (through practice, mental discipline, and avoidance of craving) and in future suffering-bound lives (through proper living/thought that brings positive karma). Ultimately, a few of us may even reach a rarified state of mental perfection that the cycle of rebirth ends. To you, that may seem unappealing because (the Buddhist would say) you are yet to be aware of the true nature of reality and the suffering that is inherent in living.

Also, I find it hard to comprehend what you say about a rich person being able to attract more positive karma. Doing good is not about giving money, it's about helping others with whatever resources you have. A poor person can be just as good as a rich person, and perhaps even more so because he does not spend so much of his time accumulating and protecting wealth... there's a reason why Jesus supposedly said that a rich man has as much chance of entering heaven as a camel has passing through the eye of a needle. But you simply need to think about the people most of us regard as being 'saint-like' in their benevolence: Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, etc etc... few of them, if any, were wealthy.

[aboctok]

Three replies so far and none of them addresses my four questions. Hmmm. Interesting phenomenon. Rarely experienced by me.

Pleas reply as follows.

My answer to your question 1) is...

My answer to your question 2) is...

etc

Thanks.

why cant you do your own research and study?

you know google, wiki.............even get some books and read

demanding to be handfed, lol, how old are you?

thanks

Handfed? It's not even an accredited serving unless you announce the numbers of the spoonfuls. In order. o_O

[Goosood]

But you simply need to think about the people most of us regard as being 'saint-like' in their benevolence: Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, etc etc... few of them, if any, were wealthy.

Bill Gates is a billionaire. Giving away billions. Yet no-one will ever see him as a Saint. Why is that? While I think he has helped more people than any of the ones you mention.

Rich people who really do not need to work for a living can do good by giving away much money, building orphanages etc. They can spend 8 hours a day in a temple because they don't have to work which will increment their Karma points a lot. (I understand just going to a Temple adds to Karma, imagine if you spend 8 hours a day in it, which you can when rich because no need to work).

If I was a Buddhist and a billionaire than it would be impossible that I wouldn't get a good rebirth. My Karma would become unrivalled high. I would just buy flowers every day, spend hours in a temple, build orphanages. My next life would be even better.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Goosood

[stevensg]

1) The food at the end of the day is of course still there. The statues have not really eaten it. So what do believers theologically think is happening 'behind the scenes'? The food is spiritually converted into spiritual food and consumed this way?

We lay out the foods and fruits as offering for the spirits which we pray to, after few hours the offering are keep and share among the family or with friends.

2) The statues are I presume from deceased family members? But in Buddhism isn't it so that people are reincarnated in a new life? These deceased people do not reside in some kind of heaven I think, they reside on Earth in a new life form. So how can they see that their old family members honour them with food? They are on earth now, not in some spiritual other region.

Those statues are not of deceased family members, usually there will have 2 temple like house, one tall and the other shorter.The tall one is for the spirits of the land it stand and the short one is for what called origin thai grandparents, not the family grandparents but the white hair thai they believe to be the first race to stay in Thailand.

3) When I speak to Thai people they see Buddha as a God, but when I read a text book on Buddhism it always says he is not a God in the Western sense. But my idea is the ordinary people see him as a God more or less in the Western sense. Is this correct?

Buddha is not god.

In Thailand there are mainly 2 different terms as phad and thep.

Phad is mainly real people like Buddha, monks or kings.Monks study Buddha words and teach to us layman, we honour/honoured them by praying to theirs statuses and make offering to them.

Thep is mainly fairytale stories type that we pass down from our grandparents that might not be real people, we call them god.We also make offering to them too.

4) People put flowers at home to honour Buddha. So I think the general idea is that Buddha is somehow stil there, in some kind of heaven, sees that you are doing good and will give you good luck. Is this correct? Buddha is seen as still being there and listening to prayers?

To us believers yes.

We believe in reborn but it's not a good thing to be reborn.

For what I know base on my little knowledge, if you can fully do what Buddha teach you and obtain enlightenment, you'll be freed from the reborn cycle and live in the so called heaven, if you can't, you'll be reborn and into different creatures.If you done enough good deeds, you'll be humans, if not you can be animals, insects or any living creatures or ... ... ...

Hope these simple words of mine can be of help to you.

[stevensg]

But you simply need to think about the people most of us regard as being 'saint-like' in their benevolence: Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, etc etc... few of them, if any, were wealthy.

Bill Gates is a billionaire. Giving away billions. Yet no-one will ever see him as a Saint. Why is that? While I think he has helped more people than any of the ones you mention.

Rich people who really do not need to work for a living can do good by giving away much money, building orphanages etc. They can spend 8 hours a day in a temple because they don't have to work which will increment their Karma points a lot. (I understand just going to a Temple adds to Karma, imagine if you spend 8 hours a day in it, which you can when rich because no need to work).

If I was a Buddhist and a billionaire than it would be impossible that I wouldn't get a good rebirth. My Karma would become unrivalled high. I would just buy flowers every day, spend hours in a temple, build orphanages. My next life would be even better.

You're wrong here, if I have a billion and I used a million to do good, I'm only using 10%.If I have 100 and I'm using 50 to do good, I'm using 50%.

If I'm doing good thinking of karma, it take off another 50%.

If I'm doing good thinking of helping, it add another 50%.

The above is just for example and real merits can't be count...

[CrummyJuggler]

Simple. Leave food out in the same place every night and the rats take it. I've seen it happen. Here in Cambodia, they put out food for 3 days for Khmer New Year, then on end of 3rd day they ate it. Another 2,000 year old tradition that doesn't make sense to our western minds. Yesterday I was at the Temple, and some a-hole at the top had at least 100 caged birds (in 2 small cages), with no food or water. You pay to release the birds for some spiritual benefit but the reality is of course, no spiritual benefit, but the wild bird population is decimated. Having lived here for a year, I can say for sure, that nothing will change because Cambodians (and Thais) think it's perfect just the way it is.

[zeichen]

"if I have a billion and I used a million to do good, I'm only using 10%.If I have 100 and I'm using 50 to do good, I'm using 50%.
If I'm doing good thinking of karma, it take off another 50%.
If I'm doing good thinking of helping, it add another 50%."

A very western and might I say wrong way to look at Karma

[Ghostnigel]

Three replies so far and none of them addresses my four questions. Hmmm. Interesting phenomenon. Rarely experienced by me.

Pleas reply as follows.

My answer to your question 1) is...

My answer to your question 2) is...

etc

Thanks.

why cant you do your own research and study?

you know google, wiki.............even get some books and read

demanding to be handfed, lol, how old are you?

thanks

If everyone used google, there would not be a TVF, right?

You try googling 'smart_ass'

[Goosood]

"not the family grandparents but the white hair thai they believe to be the first race to stay in Thailand."

"praying to theirs statuses"

Thanks a lot. Your words certainly help. But somehow all answers I receive lead to follow up questions.

You write: "not the family grandparents but the white hair thai they believe to be the first race to stay in Thailand"

​You put offerings to these 'grandparents'. But why do you think these 'grandparents' notice your offerings? They have been reborn also. Maybe your father is such a grandparent or your neighbour They are humans now, or insects, maybe some are in Nirvana etc. Why do you think the Thai grandparents are all reborn as spirits and thus need your offerings? Maybe they are all other humans now, some living in Europe? They do not notice these offerings. So why you think they are reborn as spirits?

When you say "praying to theirs statuses" what do you mean? A Thai praying to a statue is he saying in himself: "Oh Buddha, please give me many customers this week". Is it like that? So Buddha is listening to the prayers? Or does he say "Buddha, I know you do not hear me, but thank you for your teachings, hopefully it will hel me to get reborn good". On this forum you get two sides to this answer. You are Thai, so better expert isn't there. What happens when a Thai prays?

[Docno]

But you simply need to think about the people most of us regard as being 'saint-like' in their benevolence: Ghandi, Mother Teresa, Nelson Mandela, etc etc... few of them, if any, were wealthy.

Bill Gates is a billionaire. Giving away billions. Yet no-one will ever see him as a Saint. Why is that? While I think he has helped more people than any of the ones you mention.

Rich people who really do not need to work for a living can do good by giving away much money, building orphanages etc. They can spend 8 hours a day in a temple because they don't have to work which will increment their Karma points a lot. (I understand just going to a Temple adds to Karma, imagine if you spend 8 hours a day in it, which you can when rich because no need to work).

If I was a Buddhist and a billionaire than it would be impossible that I wouldn't get a good rebirth. My Karma would become unrivalled high. I would just buy flowers every day, spend hours in a temple, build orphanages. My next life would be even better.

The Bill Gates foundation has done much good - I don't take away from that. And Bill Gates has certainly done more good than most billionaires. That said, one of his houses is worth more than $120 million. I'm not begrudging him for what he's achieved and for what he's done for others. But it's very different from those who sacrifice their own comfort and well-being for others. This is what you don't get and what you seem to refuse to consider. Karma is not about a simplistic accounting of how much money you have spent on others; nor is it about clocking up hours spent in a temple. I don't know where you get these ideas from, but they're completely wrong. I'm not the right person to educate you on the meaning of karma (and other Buddhist concepts), but if you are genuine in your desire for understanding--which I'm beginning to doubt--you will find a lot of resources out there to help you.

[elgenon]

I have been told by Thais that there are 7 "hells" or is it 9?

Just as Jesus did not establish the Catholic church Buddha did not establish Buddhism. Others decided to make a religion of it and thus have control over others. Buddha said you should question what he says, The religions says you must obey. Buddha never put food in front of a Buddha statue.

I have seen "street people" eat the food. And soi dogs. Good spiritual uses.

[Goosood]

"but if you are genuine in your desire for understanding--which I'm beginning to doubt--you will find a lot of resources out there to help you."

Trust me. I am extremely interested. Trust me also that I have read a lot in the last few days. But there is contradiction everywhere. Even in the answers in this thread, by so called experts.

And I am not really interested in the official doctrine, because I believe the average person does not know much about it. Maybe a monk doesn't see Buddha as a God. Maybe he doesn't pray to Buddha. Because he knows the official doctrine.

But if say 80% of Thai who go to a temple pray to Buddha, expect him to listen and expect favours from him then I want to know.

I want to know how Buddhism is understood by the actual Thai people. Not by the select few who understand its true teachings.

Are there books about how the average Thai experiences Buddhism? What he internally says during prayer? Why he thinks the Thai 'grandparents' are spirits and not reborn now as humans. Etc etc.

That I want to know.

One other question which now also pops up:

Say a person who grew up in the West and who is not a Buddhist does good deeds. He is a good man. He dies. Will he be born in a better life even while he is not a Buddhist? If you say YES then assume he had been a Buddhist, so has gone many times to temples for example, would his new life than have been even better? Assuming in both cases the good deeds are 100% the same. In other words does believing in Buddhism give you extra karma and a better life compared to not believing in it BUT living the exact same good life, doing the exact same good deeds?

In other words does believing in Buddhist give you extra karma points and extra good next live compared to situation in which you are equally good but do not believe in it?

Edited May 14, 2015 by Goosood