Vatican recognizes state of Palestine in new treaty

[chuckd]

<<snip>>

From link :

Estimated 91.000 Palestinians died during ALL Israeli-armed conflicts. Jordanian estimated Palestinian casualities were estimated to 5.000. Referring to your own wrong quote : Israel instead still has in its history of 66 years occupation a majority of Palestinian casualities.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html

The rest of your post is correct...

The Palestinians must be slow learners.

Your link goes back to 1860 with the following death totals:

Jewish/Israeli - 24,969

Palestinians - 91,105

It would seem the Palestinians haven't yet learned they will lose more than three times what they gain.

They haven't seemed to learn much in the past 155 years.

[ABCer]

It is reassuring to see all the pro-Israeli and anti-Israeli members here without change in their convictions.

As to myself - I have long ago clearly stated where my sympathies are.

But may I remind you about the main issue:

Vatican recognizes state of Palestine in new treaty

Going back to the topic: -

# current Papa is pissing away all the Crusades organizing Popes of the past;

# current Papa is pissing away his recent predecessors apologies to Jews;

# current Papa being an undisputed leader of Catholics may be going against his own flock in view of current EU problems;

# current Papa is running a risk to become known in future history as Muslim Pope not unlike the Hitler's Pope;

Politically speaking his recognition of a new State leads to "Who are you?" question to Vatican - another "State" without territory or political relevance.

This is XXI century and Popes of Rome are no more kings makers, with all due respect.

Using terminology like Angel applied to a disputed head of a bunch of Terrorist Muslims from a head of Vatican is irresponsible IMHO.

I don't think this one will be canonized ever...

Edited May 17, 2015 by ABCer

[ABCer]

I don't waste my time on threads like this anymore because they just descend into the usual old arguments dating back to the year dot.

The bottom line is Palestine will end up being recognised by the whole world and the issues regarding Israeli control over these people will not go away.

There is either a two state solution or assimilation.

Since neither of these is a solution - try again.

If you ever see a live Jew ask him to assimilate.

If you ever see a live Arab from ME ask him to assimilate.

Than change the angle and ask them maybe they want to be assimilated.

If you will come out of this alive - come back and post again.

[konying]

From link :

Estimated 91.000 Palestinians died during ALL Israeli-armed conflicts. Jordanian estimated Palestinian casualities were estimated to 5.000. Referring to your own wrong quote : Israel instead still has in its history of 66 years occupation a majority of Palestinian casualities.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/casualtiestotal.html

The rest of your post is correct...

Yet again selective reading

And how many killed by Jordan according to Arafat?

Answer 20 000, I realize it does not suit your agenda, so cherry picking is the norm, but lets stick with one source and go with that.

So chose which one to take as a fact, Palis statistics or others?

And while we are on the topic of slaughtering, do tell me how many were slaughtered in the city of Yarmouk just a few months ago and by whom?

Edited May 17, 2015 by konying

[dexterm]

It is reassuring to see all the pro-Israeli and anti-Israeli members here without change in their convictions.

As to myself - I have long ago clearly stated where my sympathies are.

But may I remind you about the main issue:

Vatican recognizes state of Palestine in new treaty

Going back to the topic: -

# current Papa is pissing away all the Crusades organizing Popes of the past;

# current Papa is pissing away his recent predecessors apologies to Jews;

# current Papa being an undisputed leader of Catholics may be going against his own flock in view of current EU problems;

# current Papa is running a risk to become known in future history as Muslim Pope not unlike the Hitler's Pope;

Politically speaking his recognition of a new State leads to "Who are you?" question to Vatican - another "State" without territory or political relevance.

This is XXI century and Popes of Rome are no more kings makers, with all due respect.

Using terminology like Angel applied to a disputed head of a bunch of Terrorist Muslims from a head of Vatican is irresponsible IMHO.

I don't think this one will be canonized ever...

It is crystal clear where you stand in the pro or anti Israeli camp, from the connotations of the language you use, referring to Mahmoud Abbas as “a disputed head of a bunch of Terrorist Muslims”.

Abbas is very much pro peace and is by far the best option Israel has. Clearly they aren’t at the moment going to talk to Hamas...overtly at least. So why not negotiate separately with the PA?

The day will come when Israeiis will be begging for a 2 state solution from the likes of Abbas because world pressure will force them to either put up or shut up and simply absorb at least 2.5 million Palestinians as equal citizens in the West Bank that Israel has illegally occupied for 48 years now.

Indeed Abbas may not be just the Angel of Peace but the Savior of Israel.

[dexterm]

I don't waste my time on threads like this anymore because they just descend into the usual old arguments dating back to the year dot.

The bottom line is Palestine will end up being recognised by the whole world and the issues regarding Israeli control over these people will not go away.

There is either a two state solution or assimilation.

Since neither of these is a solution - try again.

If you ever see a live Jew ask him to assimilate.

If you ever see a live Arab from ME ask him to assimilate.

Than change the angle and ask them maybe they want to be assimilated.

If you will come out of this alive - come back and post again.

You dismiss Jay Sata's two state solution and one state solutions out of hand.

So what is your solution? Seriously, what are the alternatives?

Edited May 17, 2015 by dexterm

[Seastallion]

I don't waste my time on threads like this anymore because they just descend into the usual old arguments dating back to the year dot.

The bottom line is Palestine will end up being recognised by the whole world and the issues regarding Israeli control over these people will not go away.

There is either a two state solution or assimilation.

Since neither of these is a solution - try again.

If you ever see a live Jew ask him to assimilate.

If you ever see a live Arab from ME ask him to assimilate.

Than change the angle and ask them maybe they want to be assimilated.

If you will come out of this alive - come back and post again.

You dismiss Jay Sata's two state solution and one state solutions out of hand.

So what is your solution? Seriously, what are the alternatives?

It's quite clear that there are a number of people here, and in Israeli government, who do reject the two solutions.

One can only infer the Zionist urge to command the entire area from the river to the sea, with Palestinians dispersed out of country, or dead.

[dexterm]

I actually think Obama is talking sense here.

Sorry to those that hate Obama.

Though I'm not sure I share his long term optimism. While I agree a real two state solution is the only not-horrible answer to this mess, building the trust between the two sides to actually make that possible seems so far away in the future.

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Obama-Deal-with-Palestinians-not-possible-in-coming-year-due-to-make-up-of-Netanyahu-govt-403244

“We worked very hard, but frankly, the politics inside of Israel and the politics among the Palestinians as well made it very difficult for each side to trust each other enough to make that leap.”

Obama said he has told Israel that it could not remain a state that is both democratic and Jewish if it continues to have the conflict unresolved and that he has told the Palestinians that they need to recognize Israel if they are to have a state.

On the Israeli-Palestinian conflict the politics of fear has been stronger than the politics of hope, he said.

As usual, Obama throws some Catch-22 logic into the ether and hopes it sticks.

How can the conflict become resolved when a requirement for peace is that the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, yet the Palestinians refuse to do so and claim they never will?

The Palestinians are the ones holding up any attempt at a peace process and it has always been so.

More of Obama's..."If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor."

How can the conflict become resolved when a requirement for peace is that the Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist, yet the Palestinians refuse to do so and claim they never will?

The PLO (PA) has recognized Israel's right to exist since 1993.

September 9, 1993

Yitzhak Rabin

Prime Minister of Israel

Mr. Prime Minister,

The signing of the Declaration of Principles marks a new era...I would like to confirm the following PLO commitments: The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

But they will not recognize Israel as the Jewish State of Israel. Why should they? Why should they relegate 20% of the Israelis who are non Jews to 2nd class citizenship. That is racist supremacy.

When will Israel reciprocate and recognize the Palestinians' right to exist in their own country?

The ball is now and always has been in Israel's court.

Edited May 17, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

The PLO (PA) has recognized Israel's right to exist since 1993.

Hamas do not recognize Israel's right to exist and they are half of the Palestinian government. The truth is that he Palestinian Authority speak out of both sides of their mouth and often do the same.

PA depicts a world without Israel

The Palestinian Authority makes no attempt to educate its people towards peace and coexistence with Israel. On the contrary, from every possible platform it repeatedly rejects Israel's right to exist, presents the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, depicts the establishment of Israel as an act of imperialism, and perpetuates a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all. Israel's destruction is said to be both inevitable and a Palestinian obligation.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=433

[Ulysses G.]

It's quite clear that there are a number of people here, and in Israeli government, who do reject the two solutions.

One can only infer the Zionist urge to command the entire area from the river to the sea, with Palestinians dispersed out of country, or dead.

Israel has badly beaten the Arabs in numerous wars and could have easily driven the Palestinians out if that was their intention. However, some people might have grown tired of their pigheaded recalcitrance after all these years and be tired of waiting for them to sign a peace agreement. Patience wears thin after decades pass.

[Ulysses G.]

Abbas is very much pro peace and is by far the best option Israel has.

Abbas is a phony and a hypocrite, but perhaps the best of bunch of really bad choices.

“In a final resolution, we would not see the presence of a single Israeli—civilian or soldier—on our lands,” Abbas told reporters when he came to Cairo to meet Egypt’s interim president.

Abbas is held to a different standard of reality, because he is the leader of a terrorist organization that pretends it is no longer a terrorist organization—Yasser Arafat’s Fatah movement as well as Arafat’s PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization).

Abbas pretends to lead the Palestinians, though he lost Gaza to Hamas more than seven years ago, and though his term as leader of the Palestinian Authority expired several years ago, too.

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/08/01/mahmoud-abbas-the-palestinian-authoritys-phony-moderate/

[Jingthing]

True that. Abbas only appears less hard line in comparison to Hamas. But "Angel of Peace" -- not a chance. But if he went any further towards being reasonable to Israel, his people would probably kill him so I'll give him that.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

The PLO (PA) has recognized Israel's right to exist since 1993.

Hamas do not recognize Israel's right to exist and they are half of the Palestinian government. The truth is that he Palestinian Authority speak out of both sides of their mouth and often do the same.

PA depicts a world without Israel

The Palestinian Authority makes no attempt to educate its people towards peace and coexistence with Israel. On the contrary, from every possible platform it repeatedly rejects Israel's right to exist, presents the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, depicts the establishment of Israel as an act of imperialism, and perpetuates a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all. Israel's destruction is said to be both inevitable and a Palestinian obligation.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=433

Why not then take Hamas out of the loop and negotiate piecemeal (as they have in the past with Egypt and Jordan) with the PA as Kerry was attempting to do last year before Israel scuppered the whole effort by building more illegal colonies? I agree ..they are imperialists. They simply left their run at colonialism about 100 years too late. Just as the Palestinians were becoming nationalistic wanting to oust their Ottoman and European masters, Zionists were making their bid for a new empire.

If you truly believe from your incredible source that the grand plan of Palestinians is the complete destruction of Israel, why not rip Abbas's hand off in shaking on a 2 state peace deal with him, before he dies and before Israel's demographic problem gets worse? At least they may then guarantee some sort of Jewish character to the state, and with peace may actually attract more Jewish immigrants to assuage their demographic concerns.

The alternative is to let the one state solution fester and Israel's problems grow..

[Ulysses G.]

The PLO (PA) has recognized Israel's right to exist since 1993.

Hamas do not recognize Israel's right to exist and they are half of the Palestinian government. The truth is that he Palestinian Authority speak out of both sides of their mouth and often do the same.

PA depicts a world without Israel

The Palestinian Authority makes no attempt to educate its people towards peace and coexistence with Israel. On the contrary, from every possible platform it repeatedly rejects Israel's right to exist, presents the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, depicts the establishment of Israel as an act of imperialism, and perpetuates a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all. Israel's destruction is said to be both inevitable and a Palestinian obligation.

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=433

Why not then take Hamas out of the loop and negotiate piecemeal

Because Hamas is HALF of the Palestinian government - obviously. Sorry, but I have no patience with your senseless spin. It is impossible to negotiate a permanent peace treaty with a terrorist organization that refuses to even admit that you have a right to exist at all.

[dexterm]

thread full...

UG,

I disagree with your entire response above. But don't want to drift off topic debating the rights and wrongs of Hamas

But the obvious answer to the final sentence, if that's what you feel,

It is impossible to negotiate a permanent peace treaty with a terrorist organization that refuses to even admit that you have a right to exist at all.

..is then don't negotiate with them. Just as Kerry last year was holding talks between the PA (who do recognize Israel's righ to exist) and Netanyahu.

Negotiate instead with the PA separately. If Abbas can get a just deal on the West Bank, then I am sure the hearts and minds of Palestinians in Gaza will follow, isolating the extremists.

Sometimes I think Zionists have a problem for every solution.

[Ulysses G.]

Negotiate instead with the PA separately.

It is POINTLESS. They can not sign a peace treaty without Hamas.

[JingerBen]

I don't waste my time on threads like this anymore because they just descend into the usual old arguments dating back to the year dot.

The bottom line is Palestine will end up being recognised by the whole world and the issues regarding Israeli control over these people will not go away.

There is either a two state solution or assimilation.

Since neither of these is a solution - try again.

If you ever see a live Jew ask him to assimilate.

If you ever see a live Arab from ME ask him to assimilate.

Than change the angle and ask them maybe they want to be assimilated.

If you will come out of this alive - come back and post again.

You dismiss Jay Sata's two state solution and one state solutions out of hand.

So what is your solution? Seriously, what are the alternatives?

It's quite clear that there are a number of people here, and in Israeli government, who do reject the two solutions.

One can only infer the Zionist urge to command the entire area from the river to the sea, with Palestinians dispersed out of country, or dead.

What you refer to as the "...Zionist urge..." is the elephant in the room. It has been the objective of the Zionist movement since its inception. Eretz Israel is what they call it.

It can never be realized as long as large numbers of Palestinians are living there. A solution must be found. That is the current dilemma, which is made more difficult by actions such as the Vatican's recent recognition of Palestine.

[Ulysses G.]

[

They (PA) just play along with the peace charade to gain time and keep the money flowing from gullible, guilt-riddled fools westerners.

Of course. Hamas and the PA are just playing good cop, bad cop, but they do sincerely hate each other. Hate is the only thing that they are good at.

[dexterm]

Negotiate instead with the PA separately.

It is POINTLESS. They can not sign a peace treaty without Hamas.

Hamas or PA, any 'treaty' is pointless.

None actually recognize Israel's existence

Hamas does it overtly and the PA covertly

They (PA) just play along with the peace charade to gain time and keep the money flowing from gullible, guilt-riddled fools westerners.

In the next big upheaval/war that happens, they will both be at Israel's throat.

Well, I hope there are more constructive, optimistic and wiser heads involved in any peace negotitions.

"It always seems impossible until its done." (Nelson Mandela)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela

[Linky]

Negotiate instead with the PA separately.

It is POINTLESS. They can not sign a peace treaty without Hamas.

Hamas or PA, any 'treaty' is pointless.

None actually recognize Israel's existence

Hamas does it overtly and the PA covertly

They (PA) just play along with the peace charade to gain time and keep the money flowing from gullible, guilt-riddled fools westerners.

In the next big upheaval/war that happens, they will both be at Israel's throat.

That is exactly why Netanyahu said there will be no 2 state solution.

why does he continue to lie about possible peace when there will not be whilst he is in charge.

Lead up to the last election showed his real colours.

There will be no Palestine whilst he is in charge.

But the rest of the world does not agree. There will be a Palestine. There already is according to most of the world and it is innevitable it will be all the world.

Thats the facts whether Israel likes it or not.

[arjunadawn]

I can't help but fear intrigue with regard to this abrupt pontiff.

[konying]

Negotiate instead with the PA separately.

It is POINTLESS. They can not sign a peace treaty without Hamas.

Hamas or PA, any 'treaty' is pointless.

None actually recognize Israel's existence

Hamas does it overtly and the PA covertly

They (PA) just play along with the peace charade to gain time and keep the money flowing from gullible, guilt-riddled fools westerners.

In the next big upheaval/war that happens, they will both be at Israel's throat.

That is exactly why Netanyahu said there will be no 2 state solution.

why does he continue to lie about possible peace when there will not be whilst he is in charge.

Lead up to the last election showed his real colours.

There will be no Palestine whilst he is in charge.

But the rest of the world does not agree. There will be a Palestine. There already is according to most of the world and it is innevitable it will be all the world.

Thats the facts whether Israel likes it or not.

Linky, please return back to reality.

PM of Israel made it his election promise.

So how is he lying?

How can there be 2 state solution when

1. Hamas does not even want to make a 5 year peace deal with Israel in exchange for lifting the blockade

2. PA is not willing to back on on any of its unrealistic and unreasonable terms

3. Hamas and PA are in a state of war sort of speak and each time they sign some agreement, it falls through days later.

Stop already with the nonsense about the rest of the world. The rest of the world are not living in denial, everyone is well aware of facts, but to appear politically correct making some moves and decisions.

Quick crash course for you sparky, Palestine as a region already exists and has been around for a while, Recognizing Palestine as a country/State, does not turn it into one.

By definition, they are missing at least 50% of the requirements to be considered a country.

Most importantly, there is nothing stopping them from developing what they already have, there is nothing stopping them from forming functional government yet they have failed to do so, always blaming Israel.

Scapegoating is Arabs well known trait

[JingerBen]

[

They (PA) just play along with the peace charade to gain time and keep the money flowing from gullible, guilt-riddled fools westerners.

Of course. Hamas and the PA are just playing good cop, bad cop, but they do sincerely hate each other. Hate is the only thing that they are good at.

Be objective, won't you?

Pathological hatred on all sides is the fire that keeps this witch's brew boiling.

Israel and its neighboring countries should be isolated as a zone of contagion.

Treating Israel as the innocent victim is ridiculous... they're all to blame to one extent or another for the bloody mess that the Middle East has become.

[Ulysses G.]

There will be a Palestine.

Three decades of “negotiations” with the Palestinians have produced broken agreements, more terrorism and no peace. They will never have anything more than a glorified colony under Israel's control - no matter what they want to pretend - until they have met their obligations under the Oslo Accords and signed a comprehensive peace treaty.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Historically speaking Jews have no reason to trust Popes.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[JingerBen]

Historically speaking Jews have no reason to trust Popes.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No more than they ever had reason to trust any head of state in Europe.

The history of Jews in Europe has gone from bad to worse.

[Scott]

Please take care in editing a members posts and then responding.

[sdanielmcev]

Since the Palestinians are the rightful, indigineous peoples of the area, I can't see the problem with the Vatican (not the Pope) recognizing a Palestinian state. It was stupid to carve out an area and give it to anybody, let alone the Jews. Of course the article is about the shifting of recognition, but you'd actually have to remove your prejudices first.

[Linky]

There will be a Palestine.

Three decades of negotiations with the Palestinians have produced broken agreements, more terrorism and no peace. They will never have anything more than a glorified colony under Israel's control - no matter what they want to pretend - until they have met their obligations under the Oslo Accords and signed a comprehensive peace treaty.

Israel will not have a choice as they have shown over amd over that regardless of their rhetoric, their actions show they only want land.

The world is awake to this as shown by the increasing number of countries recognising Palestine.

So Israels blind supporters can say what they want. Actions speak louder than words and the world does not believe Israel.

So go cry into your milk and live with it

[geriatrickid]

The Vatican has just announced that it will be signing a new treaty with "Palestine". I believe it provides a more substantive reason as to the recognition of "Palestine". The Vatican could not have the treaty without the recognition.

The Vatican said the accord will help secure the religious freedom of Christians in the Palestinian territories, along with the tax status and property rights of the Catholic Church there.

To those who are claiming the recognition is all about recognition of a nation, I suggest they think again. It's about money and organizational vested interests. The PLA was treating the church properties as commercial. The new treaty means that the Church of Rome just protected its financial status.