Why FARMERS do not try to make more money with ORGANIC vegetables and fruits ?

[advancebooking]

No...your're question is good....But Thais need to make money the quickest way they can...

maybe they are not interested in your'e methods....

This should be in the Farming forum so you can understand what life is about here.....

NO disrespect to anyone.....

this is exactly how the thais think. to make money the quickest way possible. I doubt most farmers have the integrity to farm organically..

Besides this the locals could not afford to buy orgainic. Does this answer your question op

[Suradit69]

Sorry but can we move this post to a better section if it exists ? Getting bored to receive only stupid replies from people who have nothing smart to say...

So to sum up, the O/P asks a question. He doesn't like the answers he's getting,so he declares those posters to be stupid. He then announces that Thai farmers are both lazy and stupid, which is the only reason that could explain why everyone on the planet doesn't endorse his plan ... although he actually knows nothing about farming or marketing in Thailand and probably wouldn't last 1 day if he actually had to live the life of a typical Thai farmer.

Another arrogant, I've-got-all-the-answers, neo-colonialist, self-appointed arm chair "expert."

Apparently the only answer he was seeking was that everyone here is too stupid or too lazy to be as smart and successful as he thinks he is and that the only real important goal in life is to work yourself to death for a few extra baht.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Suradit69

[jackanapes]

a friend of mine grows limes [lemons] so before she can make any money she has to wait for the crop to ripen I told her she must grow an intercrop an in between crop salad or vegetable crops I think she understood whether she puts it into practice remains to be seen .

[nycjoe]

We use organic on our land not so much to make more money, than to protect the groundwater. I like organic myself, there is a big movement to be organic at the agricultural universities. You are not going to get poor Thais to pay more for organic. Not while making $10 a day or less.

Having said that. Many Thai farmers are planting veggies in a way that they don't need fertilizer. Marigolds near cabbage ie. Give them credit many are smart and crafty.

[pigeonjake]

We use organic on our land not so much to make more money, than to protect the groundwater. I like organic myself, there is a big movement to be organic at the agricultural universities. You are not going to get poor Thais to pay more for organic. Not while making $10 a day or less.

Having said that. Many Thai farmers are planting veggies in a way that they don't need fertilizer. Marigolds near cabbage ie. Give them credit many are smart and crafty.

companian growing as been about since gardening started, the thais didnt think of it,!

onions with carrots, the onions keep the carrot fly away,

im not pulling thai farmers down MOST of them work very hard for very little profit,

[LivinLOS]

You could expand the topic from organic and ask, why do Thai farmers not grow more diverse crops..

Luckily my SO's family are kinda well established with palm sugar so dont need to change whats working.. but I have watched distant family plant and fail at crops, or grow the exact same thing as everyone else in the area, so it all comes ripe at the same time and they all get terrible prices due to the glut.

I asked one male cousin, after he had a crop which barely broke even, why not do something different.. Why not start mushroom farming, or one of many many things which appear to do well and more importantly no one else is doing. His response.. Ohh I dont know how to do that.. But he can slave away at back breaking labor for months on end to not make any money, yet to learn something new, to try a new plan, even part time, he had no interest.. If the collective dont think its a good idea, the collective must be correct.

I have followed many 'oddball' or niche ideas.. Bug farming, croc farming, rabbit farming, goat (and cheese making) farming, etc etc and these projects have all done way better than 'rice' or 'cane sugar' or whatever the baseline normal is in a region.. Yet they never seem to experiment with new crops or ideas on even part of the land ??

Immediately off the top of my head fruits that command high value and can be easily grown here.

Yellow lemons

Peaches

Plums (not top money)

Oranges (western)

Many many types of gourmet mushrooms can grow easily.. Spores purchased online are simple to propagate, direct sell to high end bangkok 5 star chefs and thats a viable super simple operation that I know of no one in the country doing..

Edited May 16, 2015 by LivinLOS

[pjmansions]

Very difficult to be organic in LOS mainly because most farmers rely on klongs for irrigation and these klongs are shared. So when the rice farmer upstream has grown his rice using chemical fertilizers and has sprayed chemicals to kill weeds abd again to kill insects, before ge can harvest the rice he needs to empty the paddy field of water he does this by returning it to the klong.

This contaminated water is then used for irrigation kn other farms. Thai government issue organic certificates but not worth the paper its written on, i can take soil to be tested, and get a certificate but could take soil from anywhere and say its mine.

this bit my wifes employer in the ass, been selling coconut water in US as organic last container ge sent was tested by customs and found not to be organic and was confiscated.

[peter267]

I guess it depends where in Thailand. I can observe north of Bangkok in the last few years an explosion of hydroponic growing houses often located adjacent to farm houses surrounded by productive paddy. Not growing in soil and covered and protected they can both avoid the bugs and need for the pesticides. Ok the nutrient could be organic but probably is not but not the chemical level as traditional growing - and its use is contained to just the plant - not allowed to leach out into the environment. Its great to buy and use clean & fresh. Yes adjacent access to a market a requisite.

As an observer I would claim Thais must be the smartest natural marketers on the planet very quick to spot a viable opportunity, maybe too good as they all move in and keeps margins too low to be very profitable. Generations move on fast and this place has seen very rapid development in last 30 years - new generation farmers with smart phone in pocket with well educated peers will replace grand dad with his oxen as day follows night.

Successful agricultural production must be market led. Most supermarkets have both organic and hydroponic produce and sale in varying range - if it moved off the shelves it would surely develop and expand and as demand increased some Thai farmers would exploit. For better and worse they move into Cassava - huge potential as fuel - Rubber a huge diversification into - then who knows out of as international market dictate. Sure the business ends up being buggered by local and global politician sticky fingers and vested interests.

The small independent diary farms around Pak chong, from near zero to prolific in the last decade as Thailand absorbs Diary products into its diet, intensive high production mushroom farms - small business units not your CP industry. Its a pretty dynamic sector.

Maybe looking through rose coloured glasses but it shades the glare of the Asian sun and allows good focus and vivid view on what is truly out there.

[oxo1947]

Without being too negative about Thai retailer's..........I might be a little skeptical about the reality of the product being organic.

[loong]

I wrote quite a lengthy reply to this thread earlier this morning.

When I tried to post it, I got the message that the topic doesn't exist and my post was lost in cyberspace. Really clever that the back button takes me back to an empty reply box!!

Anyway, I do grow organic veges for family consumption and I believe that the biggest problem with Organic farming on a larger scale is weed control. That takes so much time and would be too expensive to hire people to do it manually.

The cheapest way would probably be to use polythene sheets and drip irrigation, but the start up costs would probably be too much for your average farmer.

[Robert24]

well it's a question of demand. If demand for organic food is picking up and people are prepared like in some other countries to pay a significant premium for it, Thai farmers will produce it. Demand for organic food is still low and as people have mentioned, I'm sure Thai farmers would be very happy to brand their produce as organic if someone will pay more money for that;)

[maswov]

Because chemical fertilizers yield bigger crops, resulting in more revenue.

[recycler]

There is some organic farming in Thailand, but on 65 million Thais that couldn't care less about how their food is grown the handful of people that are aware of this and willing to pay the extra buck are not a very interesting market.

If you care, you'd probably do best to grow your own. A small garden or even a balcony is all you need.

[SGX]

I am talking from a Thai farmer point of view:

why not cheating all these stupid farang who will pay 50 baht a carrot thinking that it is organic and clean ?

why more farmers don't do it ?

Why not cheating the farang by telling him it's organic when it's not? That I could believe.

This practise is active in Malaysia and hong kong as we speak..

[billd766]

You could expand the topic from organic and ask, why do Thai farmers not grow more diverse crops..

Luckily my SO's family are kinda well established with palm sugar so dont need to change whats working.. but I have watched distant family plant and fail at crops, or grow the exact same thing as everyone else in the area, so it all comes ripe at the same time and they all get terrible prices due to the glut.

I asked one male cousin, after he had a crop which barely broke even, why not do something different.. Why not start mushroom farming, or one of many many things which appear to do well and more importantly no one else is doing. His response.. Ohh I dont know how to do that.. But he can slave away at back breaking labor for months on end to not make any money, yet to learn something new, to try a new plan, even part time, he had no interest.. If the collective dont think its a good idea, the collective must be correct.

I have followed many 'oddball' or niche ideas.. Bug farming, croc farming, rabbit farming, goat (and cheese making) farming, etc etc and these projects have all done way better than 'rice' or 'cane sugar' or whatever the baseline normal is in a region.. Yet they never seem to experiment with new crops or ideas on even part of the land ??

Immediately off the top of my head fruits that command high value and can be easily grown here.

Yellow lemons

Peaches

Plums (not top money)

Oranges (western)

Many many types of gourmet mushrooms can grow easily.. Spores purchased online are simple to propagate, direct sell to high end bangkok 5 star chefs and thats a viable super simple operation that I know of no one in the country doing..

A couple of problems that I can see in growing gourmet mushrooms to sell direct to 5 star chefs in BKK is that

1 how would you (or a Thai farmer) actually get to meet the 5 star chefs in the first place, and

2 as the mushrooms are presumeably grown outside of BKK how would you get them to the chefs on time unless you pick them in the late afternoon and ship them down overnight.

Just a couple of logistical problems to solve.

Also what seems to be missing is the most important factor in farming anywhere.

How much water is necessary especially for hydroponic farming . Where we live in rural Thailand there has only been government water for 4 or 5 days since mid January. There are still many provinces in Thailand in a drought situation.

[rickudon]

Mainly said already. But i will add my own experiences.

I grow organically in my vegetable garden, mainly for home consumption. But is it financially worth it? NO.

Organic produce is hard to sell at the local level - who believes you when it is just your word, and your produce is less perfect than the chemically produced stuff, also hardly anyone will pay a premium.

Weed control - a nightmare. After 5 years the hot season and early rains still overwhelm my attempts to stay on top and i spend days (weeks!) preparing my beds at the start of the dry season. Thais just hack off the surface growth then plant whatever grows fastest - i understand why.

Disease and bugs. I have lost count of the crop failures i have had. Cucumbers, courgettes and water melons usually 100% failure, due to disease and bugs. Citrus fruit was suggested - i have tried and most trees succumb to disease and bugs after a few years - my brother-in-law sprays every week and his trees look great. I am still learning what will grow and what is a waste of time - mainly i grow cabbage in all its local forms, beans tomatoes and sweetcorn. Also carrots, beetroot, radish and some herbs. I loose 50% of the tomatoes to worms and disease kills off the plants early. Seed sometimes doesn't germinate if conditions not good (too hot).

Corn so far has little in the way of disease but the storms before the rainy season wiped out one plot this year (80 km/h gusts).

I still experiment and some years i am lucky and get a nice crop, others not. Carrots have little in the way of disease and bug problems, but the hot season ruins them if you wait too long. I don't claim to be a good gardener, just average, but i understand why many poorer Thai farmers only grow in the cold season. Hot season and wet just too much hassle, just plant the rice and wait. Serious Organic farming requires a lot of hard work, investment and finding markets - it is also due to problems with climate here more risky. As mentioned, if doing seriously usually hydroponic or enclosed areas used - something not really within the means of most small farmers.

Some truth also in the 'that's not how i do or my father did, so your wrong' attitude. Only way is to do it yourself and if it works for you they MAY pay attention. My F-in-law grows rice organically - because he has no money for chemicals! But the weeds, and yield, are appalling - 3 or 4 bags of rice a rai is normal, when he could get 10 times that. But he is over 70 and winding down.

[gwynt]

im going to put my bit in,

i live in the sticks we dont use chemicals, and the thais look at our veg,, our pigs, chickens, ducks and the eggs, we sell lots of our stuff,

but and its a big but,

they will always have to use chemicals,

1st, after every rain fall you will see people out at that night time catching frogs,( ALL THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THE STICKS WILL OF SEAN THIS) they are catching and eating the things that keep the bugs down, so they have to spray,

2nd, like some other poster said, its what there father did and what there neighbour does, so they just follow,

3rd, you cannot tell them how to look after there land, as in taking the frogs away every rain storm, its harder to collect poo and put it on the land as it has to be rotto tiled in, so that would mean more expence having to get the tractor in, as with chemicals they can just do it by hand, ive said to my wife many time they are killing the land,

my wifes cousins land borders ours, and were we have a dyke for the run off water just from 2 pig pens, his sugar cane, just the one row is miles better then the rest of his crop, becouse its feeding from our run off water,

im afraid thailand will, maybe not all, but 90% will always be chemicals,

we try and grow all we need, even pork, duck and chicken,

i had a member on here contact me from bkk asking if i could get eggs to him,, but we have a waiting list for our eggs round here, even though i could get more selling in bkk its the hassle,

im afraid this is one of them subjects that really does mean,, THIS IS THAILAND, and i really dont think we will change them,

jake,, organic farmer,,

look at our place on youtube,, thaifarmlife.com ronald jackson

Hi Taken a look at your website, sent a message. I wish you all the luck with your plan, similar to the one I have but will have to wait until I retire.

My wife says that the only way to change the way farming is run here is to address every one in Thai dressed in a suit and tie, and to be Thai.

I come from a family of farmers, UK, and my first visits to the village some 11 years ago was similar to the way UK farming was in the 50s and 60s, with every one helping each other during busy time.

The use of chemicals has been driven by these people in suits, business orientated who supply the chemicals, yes it is "Easy" farming but is killing the land and to some extent the farmer as well, no protection while applying dangerous weed killers etc. banned in most other countries.

I will feed myself and hopefully sell a bit of what will be predominantly organic produce.

[enufsaid]

Thailandforumaddict, Thai farmers need good now. Organic in Australia is a long arduous process,7 years of no chemicals on the land or nearby land to make sure there's no run off. Not an easy process in a country where the population is huge. If u want organic try hahahawaiianorganics.com

[Alwyn]

Thank you but I am bot asking if organics is good and what are the problems, I guess that I know them, I am asking why farmers don't do it.

And yes, farmers who are less stupid than others do it in Europe and even do direct sale, why Thai couldn't do it ?

Thank you to all.

I think I can answer your question; For food to be certified organic the ground has to be free of chemicals etc for three years which means in short, no crops fopr three years on that ground. Chiang Mai and surrounding areas have masses of organic farms, some run by the air force!

[peter267]

How much water is necessary especially for hydroponic farming . Where we live in rural Thailand there has only been government water for 4 or 5 days since mid January. There are still many provinces in Thailand in a drought situation. asks

billd766

Google would tell you in detail, but not a lot - modern hydroponics - and yes this is what has been introduced here uses covered plastic gutters or tubes to minimise evaporation the water is aimed at and taken up by the plant roots - no losses permeating into the soil different methods recirculating or feeding aimed at getting all of the nutrient and water delivered to the plant roots for delivery to the plant.

But sure no water in the crop cycle and the crop dies. But we are talking but a 100 litres or 2 for a productive unit over a week - not 1000's and not flowing Klongs. A very modest borehole water supply would deal easily with a unit and a house supply.

A nice number of Thai equipment producers with good websites - many with simple starter kits and lots of innovative self build systems. Thai marketing on the roll.

Ok it looks like and maybe is a form of factory farming. Its in covered tunnels and tubes of neutral growing medium. No vistas of tidy gardens set on rolling fields in inspiring landscapes.

Ok the OP asks why not Organics. It was a fashion and not least Royal supported for a long period. Hydroponics is proving to be better suited to this environment manufacturing technology makes the equipment cheap and plentiful - it needs little area and works equally well inside an urban setting or farm as soil is not required, its is not labour intensive, and is has ability to be monitored as it is closed system - the nutrients can be registered and approved and relatively easy to monitor.

All features the cany Thai farmer can evaluate and action ignorant of that appeal of Felicity Kendal in the Good Life.

But it is access to market that rules. Salad greens produced 10Km from down town Bangkok a different prospect from one in darkest Issan

[50baht]

I am talking from a Thai farmer point of view:

why not cheating all these stupid farang who will pay 50 baht a carrot thinking that it is organic and clean ?

why more farmers don't do it ?

First you would have to get a "Organtic Certificate" on Khao San Road and have it translated to English THEN CHARGE 2X the Price.

[Robert24]

Growing organic veg is not more expensive than growing using chemicals, just the opposite.

Before my accident i was growing organic, have done it for years in UK. Registered organic with the soil association.

Thai people will not grow organic, because my father used chemicals, so i do the same.

Also buying chemicals they get credit from the merchants.

My f.i.l. now grows veg on my plot. I have tried to get him to grow without chemicals, he just will not listen.

Local people used to come our home asking what veg you got, please bring to my home when ready.

All the veg i grew was sold around 2 villages. People wanted organic.

Thai farmers will not change what they have done for years because they are scared people will laugh at them.

I think it's more a commercial issue than one of face or lack of innovation. Right now consumers are not paying a premium for organic products. I think if you grow it now, you will find it difficult to find a market to sell. In order to make the same amount of money with organic products than normal products, you will need consumers to pay for about 3 times more than normal products.

I think you give it about 3-4 years more and you see people start buying organic products too. The more there is a growing middle class that has enough disposable income, questions of health (i.e. healthy food, exercise, gym, health insurance, regular health check ups etc) will become a higher priority and will spend money for that. It's just normal economics, and is about the same for most emerging markets. It's not an issue for the farmers, it's a question when do consumers start buying organic products and are prepared to pay 2-3 times more for that.

[AlQaholic]

If talking about rice, it becomes too expensive for the farmers as the extra cost needed to grow organic cannot in most cases be put onto the consumers, and there are middlemen that needs to make a profit too. The cost for hiring people to clear the weeds are too high, need to clear on a weekly basis.

I think weeds here in Thailand is a bigger problem than for example in Europe maybe, because of the large amount of birds flying around the rice fields and dropping seeds in their droppings, and the fast growth rate of weeds in humid or shallow water rice fields.

On top of that you need to have a mill that specialize in organic product as the organics cannot be mixed with the other stuff.

So basically there must be a complete framework for handling the product all the way to the store outlets.

I have seen small packages of rice of different types (gourmet rice?) in Big C and other supermarkets that are supposed to be grown organically, I haven't checked where they come from, but could be from small cooperatives maybe?

Edited May 16, 2015 by AlQaholic

[thailandforumaddict]

I wrote quite a lengthy reply to this thread earlier this morning.

When I tried to post it, I got the message that the topic doesn't exist and my post was lost in cyberspace. Really clever that the back button takes me back to an empty reply box!!

Anyway, I do grow organic veges for family consumption and I believe that the biggest problem with Organic farming on a larger scale is weed control. That takes so much time and would be too expensive to hire people to do it manually.

The cheapest way would probably be to use polythene sheets and drip irrigation, but the start up costs would probably be too much for your average farmer.

Always COPY (CONTROL-C) before you post anything on internet.

You should also use addons for Chrome or extensions for Firefox as LAZARUS that will save your text when you post it.

Thank you anyway.

[Suradit69]

Without being too negative about Thai retailer's..........I might be a little skeptical about the reality of the product being organic.

"Without being too negative about Thai retailer's [sic]..."

Quite understandable because in Farang Ville retailers are 100% reliable because they have white skin.

[Mudcrab]

I have a small property and have always looked to value add where possible.

From all the scientific research etc that I have seen there is zero difference nutritionally between organic produce and that produced using modern technology and chemicals.

The losses of production from growing "organically" compared to the more modern methods of producing fruit and vegetables make it quite undesirable economically generally.

If you have a large population of people of the green variety who are willing to foolishly pay top prices then perhaps there may be a reason to go the extra back breaking mile in producing the product.

Bear in mind that a lot of the "modern" hybrid vegetables have been bred to withstand the rigours of transport / cold storage for extended periods etc....think of the thick skinned tomatoes with very little "meat" in them, but there are many other varieties are still available which suit the local market.

Often people confuse taste and flavour with chemicals versus organic.

The more succulent fruit and veggies can be grown using fertilisers and what have you....they just don't transport well.

If the farmer follows the withholding period after using chemicals to spray the product then the risk of selling "poisoned" produce is zero.

[SGX]

Mainly said already. But i will add my own experiences.

I grow organically in my vegetable garden, mainly for home consumption. But is it financially worth it? NO.

Organic produce is hard to sell at the local level - who believes you when it is just your word, and your produce is less perfect than the chemically produced stuff, also hardly anyone will pay a premium.

Weed control - a nightmare. After 5 years the hot season and early rains still overwhelm my attempts to stay on top and i spend days (weeks!) preparing my beds at the start of the dry season. Thais just hack off the surface growth then plant whatever grows fastest - i understand why.

Disease and bugs. I have lost count of the crop failures i have had. Cucumbers, courgettes and water melons usually 100% failure, due to disease and bugs. Citrus fruit was suggested - i have tried and most trees succumb to disease and bugs after a few years - my brother-in-law sprays every week and his trees look great. I am still learning what will grow and what is a waste of time - mainly i grow cabbage in all its local forms, beans tomatoes and sweetcorn. Also carrots, beetroot, radish and some herbs. I loose 50% of the tomatoes to worms and disease kills off the plants early. Seed sometimes doesn't germinate if conditions not good (too hot).

Corn so far has little in the way of disease but the storms before the rainy season wiped out one plot this year (80 km/h gusts).

I still experiment and some years i am lucky and get a nice crop, others not. Carrots have little in the way of disease and bug problems, but the hot season ruins them if you wait too long. I don't claim to be a good gardener, just average, but i understand why many poorer Thai farmers only grow in the cold season. Hot season and wet just too much hassle, just plant the rice and wait. Serious Organic farming requires a lot of hard work, investment and finding markets - it is also due to problems with climate here more risky. As mentioned, if doing seriously usually hydroponic or enclosed areas used - something not really within the means of most small farmers.

Some truth also in the 'that's not how i do or my father did, so your wrong' attitude. Only way is to do it yourself and if it works for you they MAY pay attention. My F-in-law grows rice organically - because he has no money for chemicals! But the weeds, and yield, are appalling - 3 or 4 bags of rice a rai is normal, when he could get 10 times that. But he is over 70 and winding down.

When i lived in Queensland i grew all my food via Hydraponics , never touched chemicals , admittedly was home use but had so much food i gave a lot away. food was grown through pebbles and not soil , using fish waste as fertilizer. Not much work needed at all , taste was much nicer than any food i have eaten since. Thems the days..

[thaibeachlovers]

Thank you but I am bot asking if organics is good and what are the problems, I guess that I know them, I am asking why farmers don't do it.

And yes, farmers who are less stupid than others do it in Europe and even do direct sale, why Thai couldn't do it ?

Thank you to all.

Organic food costs more. OK in the rich west, but poor people in Thailand are not going to buy it.

I do wish I could buy free range eggs though.

[facthailand]

A couple of years ago I read Thailand's largest quantity of agricultural export is organic products. I would have to assume most of that is organically-produced rice.

Certified organic - This varies from country-to-country but, in most cases, the soil must be free of chemical fertilisers or pesticides for at least six years. Thailand has fully-implemented organic certification. http://www.acfs.go.th/eng/index.php.

Not all organic famermers go through the paperwork for certification. Many food products from India, for example, are organically-produced but lack govt certification.

Human waste is a terrific fertiliser and is in no way a vector for disease. We know many families composting their own and using it on home gardens. Urine is a terrific source of nitrogen; after aging, it may be sprayed on one's home garden. Disgusted? Well, consider the disgusting alternatives like flushing into the ocean.

When we visited China, most villages have public toilets. A local night-soil collector empties these and the waste is put directly onto the fields, including those with growing plants which will later be sold. This is far less wasteful and environmentally-conscious than flushing. There has NEVER been a recorded outbreak of any human disease in China from this practice.

Why do I eat organic? Has nothing to do with health! I do it because the produce has real flavour unlike commercial produce.

Our spread in Chaiphum has a lovely year-round stream flowing. Unfortunately, it is so contaminated by pesticides upstream, one isn't even supposed to bathe in it!

Edited May 16, 2015 by facthailand

[pigeonjake]

Thank you but I am bot asking if organics is good and what are the problems, I guess that I know them, I am asking why farmers don't do it.

And yes, farmers who are less stupid than others do it in Europe and even do direct sale, why Thai couldn't do it ?

Thank you to all.

Organic food costs more. OK in the rich west, but poor people in Thailand are not going to buy it.

I do wish I could buy free range eggs though.

we have both duck and chicken free range eggs,

just ask around were you live you might find a little farm like ours,