Thai university students score 7/100 for English test

[eliotness]

My university graduated Thai wife asked me one day, ... "Australia! That is close to England, right?" .. and she meant in the geographic sense, not political or economic!

AFAIK, world geography isn't really broadly taught here, nor is world history, nor are a lot of other subjects that might be considered core university subjects in the west. Philosophy, literature, sciences, economics, others.

These subjects are taught mainly in countries with a colonial past. The others spend more study time looking inwardly, Japan is one example.

How many countries don't have a colonial past ? Can't think of many, in fact none at all, but I'd exclude Japan as she had her own empire. The only reason Thailand was never occupied/colonised was because it was useful for the British and French empires to have a low value buffer state between them.

How can Thais benefit from the information on the www without understanding English ?

[lostoday]

My university graduated Thai wife asked me one day, ... "Australia! That is close to England, right?" .. and she meant in the geographic sense, not political or economic!

AFAIK, world geography isn't really broadly taught here, nor is world history, nor are a lot of other subjects that might be considered core university subjects in the west. Philosophy, literature, sciences, economics, others.

These subjects are taught mainly in countries with a colonial past. The others spend more study time looking inwardly, Japan is one example.

How many countries don't have a colonial past ? Can't think of many, in fact none at all, but I'd exclude Japan as she had her own empire. The only reason Thailand was never occupied/colonised was because it was useful for the British and French empires to have a low value buffer state between them.

How can Thais benefit from the information on the www without understanding English ?

Google 10 countries that were never colonized

[cgphuket]

I taught a class at "well known Thai university" in Bangkok. The class was in English and all the students were Thai. Apparently a passing grade was given not for knowledge, but for attendance. If the student attended 10 out of 12 classes they passed. The final class, the only time they had a test and had to display knowledge, was after they had attended enough classes to pass. Out of 58 students, how many showed up for the test?????? Right, Zero.

[eliotness]

My university graduated Thai wife asked me one day, ... "Australia! That is close to England, right?" .. and she meant in the geographic sense, not political or economic!

AFAIK, world geography isn't really broadly taught here, nor is world history, nor are a lot of other subjects that might be considered core university subjects in the west. Philosophy, literature, sciences, economics, others.

These subjects are taught mainly in countries with a colonial past. The others spend more study time looking inwardly, Japan is one example.

How many countries don't have a colonial past ? Can't think of many, in fact none at all, but I'd exclude Japan as she had her own empire. The only reason Thailand was never occupied/colonised was because it was useful for the British and French empires to have a low value buffer state between them.

How can Thais benefit from the information on the www without understanding English ?

Google 10 countries that were never colonized

You mean never colonised by Europeans - most of those on that list were under "spheres of influence" and therefore not exactly free from European control.

[BritTim]

Typical Thai bashing thread.

I've employed over 100 graduates here, many with perfect English, some with poorer English.

To say they all "can't give a shit about learning" is absolute nonsense.

There are many very smart people here who would have done well at any school.

Well, I've only been here for 11 years, am married to a Thai woman, ( with the usual 437 relatives), & she has 2 daughters both graduates of the Thai educational system, one was # 2 in her class and neither can speak even broken English which is still better then the other 435, who speak none ! # 2 works stocking shelves at Tesco.In these 11 years, being quite gregarious/outgoing/easy to meet, I've tried to engage in conversation with many, many Thai people, of all ages/educational levels and not met even one of those with "the perfect English" of which you boast ! Pray tell where one can find one of this very rare species or, are they all in the US or UK ?

I have met a few Thais with good English, even fluent, but they are (almost) invariably the product of international schools. I can quote one honorable exception. My ex secretary was lower middle class, and never had the opportunity to attend a degree course at university. By dint of great effort educating herself, she progressed to running the business center at a major hotel (where I found her). After many years of educating herself, she had almost flawless English. She ended up marrying someone above her in wealth and social standing, but below her in intelligence and work ethic. Their business, predictably, is very successful.

I actually think Thailand had regressed as far as respect for education goes. A decade or two ago, being genuinely educated (including language skills) garnered respect. I can remember when educated teenagers conversed in multiple languages among themselves to show their quality. Today, that is less true. Only wealth really matters now.

[zeichen]

"Your post is about the quality of testing, not the quality of teaching"

Actually assessment is a very integral part of teaching. So yes, a teacher who cannot make a valid and accurate test reflects poorly on their teaching ability.

[Rhys]

What is even more oustanding, a more truly amazing stat... when you give the same student a re-test...they score even lower...

Truly do not care or give a hoot.. definitely rice workers

[MaeJoMTB]

and how do they get to "my mother me"

English = my mother

Thai = mare chan

add them together = my mother I (me)

[lostoday]

One professor says, I teach at 3 universities in BKK. In all cases the deans / faculty directors etc., do strongly support and encourage more discipline if needed.

In severe cases he had listened to both teacher and student then said to the student:

- You cannot complete this course, and all your grades for this and last two semesters are cancelled and no refunds, your past grades cannot be transferred to another university - your grades are cancelled!, and in 2 cases he added, don't come back here for 2 years.

A poster writes - When my wife completed her Masters Degree half the class failed the mandatory English module. They were allowed to continue the course but warned they would not be allowed to graduate until they had passed that module in a re-take a couple of months later.

Another professor says, I taught a class at "well known Thai university" in Bangkok. The class was in English and all the students were Thai. Apparently a passing grade was given not for knowledge, but for attendance. If the student attended 10 out of 12 classes they passed. The final class, the only time they had a test and had to display knowledge, was after they had attended enough classes to pass. Out of 58 students, how many showed up for the test?????? Right, Zero.

One prof says they fail. A poster says they fail. Another prof says they all pass.

My wife speaks English. When we got married all her college friends that came to the wedding spoke English. Her sisters daughter scored #1 in some grade school English thing and she speaks English with me on the phone.

Must be a lot of people live in different worlds in Thailand.

[Mr Somtam]

Just a quick point about Thais not needing to use English

I remember having to learn many subjects to pass exams to progress to Sixth form, then University and I haven't used much of the knowledge acquired since. However it equipped me with the ability to acquire knowledge for my betterment. Hence teaching here in a foreign country.

Learning is a process of being able to acquire skills and use information beneficial for entering the work force and showing self-discipline and task completion. OK Thais may not use English directly day to day but have to show they are capable of task completion and skill acquisition to benefit the country.

My view is that qualified native teachers and more accountability by management (read no corruption) would have a considerable impact on results in English acquisition,

JGV

Why must it always be native speakers? In the Netherlands all teachers are Dutch, I am sure they speak and write better English than a lot of the TEFL brigade over here... Most teachers I've had I am sure you could drop somewhere in the UK and no one could tell they were not natives. Perfect accents.

[BritTim]

Just a quick point about Thais not needing to use English

I remember having to learn many subjects to pass exams to progress to Sixth form, then University and I haven't used much of the knowledge acquired since. However it equipped me with the ability to acquire knowledge for my betterment. Hence teaching here in a foreign country.

Learning is a process of being able to acquire skills and use information beneficial for entering the work force and showing self-discipline and task completion. OK Thais may not use English directly day to day but have to show they are capable of task completion and skill acquisition to benefit the country.

My view is that qualified native teachers and more accountability by management (read no corruption) would have a considerable impact on results in English acquisition,

JGV

Why must it always be native speakers? In the Netherlands all teachers are Dutch, I am sure they speak and write better English than a lot of the TEFL brigade over here... Most teachers I've had I am sure you could drop somewhere in the UK and no one could tell they were not natives. Perfect accents.

The Dutch are rightly proud of their language skills. Dutch teachers of English probably have better English, on average, then a typical teacher in England. However, they do usually have a slight and recognizable accent to those (like me) who lived in Holland for a while. It really is of no consequence as each area of the UK has its own English accent to a greater or lesser degree.

[zeichen]

"

Must be a lot of people live in different worlds in Thailand. "

Yes because every person assumes what they are told is the truth and that they equate their limited experience and apply it to all of the country.

There are many posts on this thread that are just out right lies and others just exaggerations.

Most people that teach here are not qualified to do so. Most that compare what they see with the education they got are looking at things in a wrong way. First of all, perhaps those that praise their own education aren't half as smart or educated as they feel they are.

Many on this thread seem to equate speaking with language knowledge. Criticizing pronunciation as a lack of overall ability or intelligence is just plain ignorant.

One poster claims that all Thai students who study abroad pay bribes which is just ridiculous. If students don't pass the basic requirement for TOEFL or IELTS, they don't get accepted unless they take remedial courses. Also just because someone passes these exams doesn't actually mean they can fully communicate. The majority of the exams are comprehension based. So a student can do excellent in one section and poorly on the other and still pass with a high enough score to get into university.

Losttoday the other thing you get is a lot of conjecture. Many posters aren't actually involved in education and those that are have a very limited perspective. You also call a lot of people professor. Sorry but that is an earned title and the majority of those that teach at university here aren't actually ajarns, they are just called that to be polite.

[Mr Somtam]

Well, a person that can read, write and is perfect in grammar BUT has terrible pronunciation (you can't tell what they're blabbering on about) is a failure in that language. Period.

And I can have a conversation with an English person, read a newspaper (and know what I've just read), write posts on TV. I have had 6 years of formal English language education. Many Thai people get 10+ years and Yes, No, Goodbye is what they know... It's just the truth...

Edited May 22, 2015 by Mr Somtam

[Thaddeus]

English is a hard language to learn , I am glad my parents grew up this side of the border !

I disagree.

It is a very simple language for basic communication, the listener will forgive and understand mistakes in pronunciation, plurality, and tenses.

''I go hopital''

''I am going to the hospital''

It is however, a very difficult language to master, and that is the real problem with the way Thais try to teach, they want to get the language in a headlock begging for mercy, when they should just go for a stroll with it first.

[Mr Somtam]

And I score 25 out of 25 on the small test on the Cambridge English website.

[Mr Somtam]

English is a hard language to learn , I am glad my parents grew up this side of the border !

I disagree.

It is a very simple language for basic communication, the listener will forgive and understand mistakes in pronunciation, plurality, and tenses.

''I go hopital''

''I am going to the hospital''

It is however, a very difficult language to master, and that is the real problem with the way Thais try to teach, they want to get the language in a headlock begging for mercy, when they should just go for a stroll with it first.

Yup, they want to teach boring grammar and vocab for ten years and then take a stroll with it. Like teaching music script, composition and allthat without actually playing a musical instrument.

[daiwill60]

students cant fail a degree, is this correct? whats the point of having one then? it would mean nothing apart from student managed to pay for course for four years

Unfortunately yes, for some courses in some universities This is a major problem. I was at a seminar recently and the speaker reported that employers in Thailand lament the fat that "many Thai graduates don't know anything". This no fail policy must change, especially at university level. Unfortunately, too much money and palms are greased for this to effectively happen. And it's not just private universities involved too.

I am working in a University currently, which is regarded as a top academic producer of referenced research papers.

Now , I am not sure whether what I am experiencing here also relates to the main University campus in BKK, but in the campus I work in, which it must be said is also very new and still under construction, some of the subjects being undertaken and tested on during the end of term tests, include:-

Petanque ( Boules ) , Table Tennis , Golf and Karaoke.

In the Karaoke test this week, one question as follows was included in the test:- Which of the following is the lead singer of Carabao? A B C D E

Kind of just about sums it up really , doesn't it.

Edited May 22, 2015 by daiwill60

[GerdT]

There are two players in the education equation, students and teachers.

What about hordes of incompetent westerners who cannot get a job back home and now teaching in Thailand. Most have no required skills, no knowledge or training of pedagogical methods for teaching. This is big part of the problem.

Maybe you should read your comment, correct it and re-post it!

[selftaopath]

There is also a sizable amount of bribe-taking among "elite" privately funded American universities that are struggling financially--like many Ivy League Schools excluding Harvard, Yale, Columbia and U Penn who are solvent. Foreign students are seen as a revenue stream, and they are accepted and allowed to graduate regardless of their performance so long as their family will make a voluntary $500,000 donation to a building fund or to an endowment for scholarships (for talented students). This happens across the US.

I spent more than a decade working at a very large big city, state university in the U.S. dealing a lot with our fundraising efforts, which were substantial. And I saw almost none of what you're describing on behalf of our foreign students, of which we had many including a lot of Thais.

The families of our foreign students were already paying full-rate tuition -- not the subsidized rates of our in state students. And at private schools, the annual tuition rates plus living abroad expenses for a foreign student are going to be even higher, easily $50,000 a year altogether.

For most foreign families, the cost of sending their children abroad and paying for all the expenses associated with a 4-year U.S. university degree is going to be a substantial expenditure. The foreign families weren't usually lining up to make big donations on top of their other expenses.

Likewise, my father was a longtime graduate studies professor at several private universities, and we didn't see the practice you're describing there either. What probably happened more was, a foreign student would graduate, go on to become successful, and later return to donate to their alma mater.

What I did see, though, at the private universities, was efforts by foreign students to ingratiate themselves with the professors teaching their classes such as through sometimes quite valuable personal gifts (which I was told was the custom in their native countries).

And, at the private universities, there were varying levels of internal pressure not to simply fail foreign students who were paying $25K or $35K a year in tuition, because those students were indeed seen in part as a needed revenue stream.

Out of curiosity I googled a question re: how many Thais are enrolled in US Colleges. Interesting. Here's the link:

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/study_usa.html

[lostoday]

So how do Thai students go overseas for post-secondary education get in the door of a USA College/University, and yet graduate!

That will be a tiny percentage, and almost none from the government School system which is not about education but indoctrination + reading and writing Thai. You are commenting on the rich elite from good private Schools.

It's primarily a status issue too. If you are high enough on the social ladder, many doors open up (but this group has a great overlap with the good private school students). There is also a sizable amount of bribe-taking among "elite" privately funded American universities that are struggling financially--like many Ivy League Schools excluding Harvard, Yale, Columbia and U Penn who are solvent. Foreign students are seen as a revenue stream, and they are accepted and allowed to graduate regardless of their performance so long as their family will make a voluntary $500,000 donation to a building fund or to an endowment for scholarships (for talented students). This happens across the US. Rich people send their kids to the US or Europe for undergrad. Upper middle class families send their kids to Chula, TU and Mahidol. Lower middle class end up at the Rajabhat Universities...and then there is Surin Tech.

It's not all bad though. A number of my students have been able to get accepted to good western schools for MA programs or as undergraduate transfers. They are the smart ones, and I'm really proud of what they have accomplished.

What are you talking about? Bribing your way into a US university? To what point? If you get in you can't bribe all the professors for all your courses for 4 or 6 or 8 years?

If you are smart enough to graduate - you are smart enough to get in.

Preference is given to many students for many things upon entry but they can't bribe the teachers after admission. Schools would lose their accreditation in a minute and let me assure you that students would and do turn in any prof for faking grades of other students.

[Cake Monster]

This basically says it all about a Thai University Degree and education.

Totally worthless to anybody, except for the Universities collecting the money for the courses.

[brewsterbudgen]

This basically says it all about a Thai University Degree and education.

Totally worthless to anybody, except for the Universities collecting the money for the courses.

So how do you account for the students that use their degree from a Thai university to go on to a Masters or Phd from overseas universities? It's silly to make generalisations.

[ThaiUser]

Well, a person that can read, write and is perfect in grammar BUT has terrible pronunciation (you can't tell what they're blabbering on about) is a failure in that language. Period.

And I can have a conversation with an English person, read a newspaper (and know what I've just read), write posts on TV. I have had 6 years of formal English language education. Many Thai people get 10+ years and Yes, No, Goodbye is what they know... It's just the truth...

You must be a very clever man reading your posts on this specific subject in this forum, aren't you?

I didn’t speak a word of English nor could I read the language when I went to the UK when I was 18 years old. Most of my education I received was in the UK and I am grateful for it. The quality of teachers and the teaching materials available made it possible to gain what was impossible to get in my country at that time, Thailand.

When I got married to a man that had to travel in his job as IT consultant I have learned that the proper pronunciation differs, depending on the part of the country you are in. I would advise you to travel from Shetland to Orkney and continue to Liverpool not leaving out Northern England carrying on to Wales and some other parts of the island. You will find that pronunciation is different depending which part of the country you are in and understanding sometimes is even more difficult.

When being over in the US I found it very difficult to understand people when visiting part of the Mississippi Delta and Louisiana and sometimes it was impossible.

By saying that you received 6 years of formal English training and Thai receive 10 to 12 years of it, you have already invalidated your argument. In one of your posts you write that you know that some Thai teachers don’t speak English and students that have left that school certainly haven’t gained a formal English education. The Netherlands compared to Thailand is a rich country that has a long history when looking at education and how to apply it. Most of all, they have the money to provide teachers with expertise that can teach the subjects. In the place of Thailand I live, our local school has no English teacher and the person to teach English, which is enforced by the curriculum, has been designated by the head teacher. So the children leaving that school can’t claim to have had a formal education in English as you certainly can.

[lostoday]

This basically says it all about a Thai University Degree and education.

Totally worthless to anybody, except for the Universities collecting the money for the courses.

Surgeons in Thai hospitals. Dentists in Thai hospitals. Engineers Building Thai high rise buildings. Nuclear physicists in Thai research programs. Nurses in Thai hospitals. Industrial engineers working for Ford, Mercedes, BMW, and on and on and on.

[Peabody]

One of the best comments that I've heard regarding teaching in Thailand was from a friend working at Bangkok Christian College, who said, "The reason so many students are failing is that they cannot fail".

[Thai at Heart]

Thais themselves are the reason why they don't learn English. They put more emphasis in form rather than function (in this case communicating - either getting your ideas across or understanding others). Grammar, sentence construction, and pronunciation are more important than communicating. It is so tiring discussing this situation because NOTHING has changed and nothing will change until Thais change their priorities and start really learning.

Adult Thais should understand that they should start learning like a child does. Children learn easily because they are not bound by rules of syntax, grammar or pronunciation.

So when a child says "The octopus wrapped its testicles around my hand." I might smile or giggle a little but I know exactly what the child is trying to say and will probably correct the child and teach the child the correct word - tentacle, instead of testicles.

Well not how they claim to do the test. Writing the English phonetic sounds for a word.

What real good is that in terms of building real communication. It creates a written test for an oral ability. A test which can be passed with no understanding or ability to speak at all. It is as though it is a technique assuming that the students are mute.

No wonder thais can write and read passable but struggle to speak English.

[ThaiUser]

Well, a person that can read, write and is perfect in grammar BUT has terrible pronunciation (you can't tell what they're blabbering on about) is a failure in that language. Period.

And I can have a conversation with an English person, read a newspaper (and know what I've just read), write posts on TV. I have had 6 years of formal English language education. Many Thai people get 10+ years and Yes, No, Goodbye is what they know... It's just the truth...

You must be a very clever man reading your posts on this specific subject in this forum, aren't you?

I didn’t speak a word of English nor could I read the language when I went to the UK when I was 18 years old. Most of my education I received was in the UK and I am grateful for it. The quality of teachers and the teaching materials available made it possible to gain what was impossible to get in my country at that time, Thailand.

When I got married to a man that had to travel in his job as IT consultant I have learned that the proper pronunciation differs, depending on the part of the country you are in. I would advise you to travel from Shetland to Orkney and continue to Liverpool not leaving out Northern England carrying on to Wales and some other parts of the island. You will find that pronunciation is different depending which part of the country you are in and understanding sometimes is even more difficult.

When being over in the US I found it very difficult to understand people when visiting part of the Mississippi Delta and Louisiana and sometimes it was impossible.

By saying that you received 6 years of formal English training and Thai receive 10 to 12 years of it, you have already invalidated your argument. In one of your posts you write that you know that some Thai teachers don’t speak English and students that have left that school certainly haven’t gained a formal English education. The Netherlands compared to Thailand is a rich country that has a long history when looking at education and how to apply it. Most of all, they have the money to provide teachers with expertise that can teach the subjects. In the place of Thailand I live, our local school has no English teacher and the person to teach English, which is enforced by the curriculum, has been designated by the head teacher. So the children leaving that school can’t claim to have had a formal education in English as you certainly can.

and your point is????

It would appear that you have found the spirit to better yourself in life regardless of the pitfalls. That, however, has nothing to do with the system here which shortchanges the Thai student, and, if you have travelled as broadly as you say then you will recognize the intent of the comments made here, no matter that they may appear tasteless and frivolous.

The point is that education is like all other products, and it has become a product that isn't universally available for all anymore, is a money problem.

Since for most sectors of the educational system the government takes responsibility it should provide the money that allows levelling the playing field. Quality teachers, a quality curriculum and a will actually to do something and not only providing lip services would be a step into the right directions. I am not alone and there are many that if given the chance could achieve the same what their counterparts in foreign countries do.

Sure it doesn’t help to tell us Thai, everyday that we are inapt or unwilling to learn because most of the children today are not given the chance to show what they could achieve if properly taught.

[MaeJoMTB]

The point is that education is like all other products, and it has become a product that isn't universally available for all anymore, is a money problem.

Since for most sectors of the educational system the government takes responsibility it should provide the money that allows levelling the playing field. Quality teachers, a quality curriculum and a will actually to do something and not only providing lip services would be a step into the right directions. I am not alone and there are many that if given the chance could achieve the same what their counterparts in foreign countries do.

Sure it doesn’t help to tell us Thai, everyday that we are inapt or unwilling to learn because most of the children today are not given the chance to show what they could achieve if properly taught.

You were given the chance, but are still making many mistakes.

So your point is?

PS

'What' and 'got' are invariably wrong.

'Sure' is also highly suspect.

Avoid using when possible.

Edited May 22, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The point is that education is like all other products, and it has become a product that isn't universally available for all anymore, is a money problem.

Since for most sectors of the educational system the government takes responsibility it should provide the money that allows levelling the playing field. Quality teachers, a quality curriculum and a will actually to do something and not only providing lip services would be a step into the right directions. I am not alone and there are many that if given the chance could achieve the same what their counterparts in foreign countries do.

Sure it doesn’t help to tell us Thai, everyday that we are inapt or unwilling to learn because most of the children today are not given the chance to show what they could achieve if properly taught.

Yes, but it's not just a money problem. Thailand already spends quite a bit on its education system.

Unfortunately, a lot of that get put into wasteful/corrupt uses, and doesn't really end up benefiting the students or the teachers. Dubious Chinese tablets, overpriced/lousy sports fields, skims off capital projects and even textbook purchases.

And in the end, no matter how much money is spent, you'll still end up with an education system that's entirely illegitimate and unaccountable, run by people who seem to have no apparent real interest in fostering actual learning and achievement by their students.

There's so much wrong with the entire system from top to bottom -- including unmotivated students, uncaring parents, outdated/inept teachers and the whole education bureaucracy -- it's hard to even imagine where to start in making it better.

Edited May 22, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[bubblegum]

Fact is English is not used here a lot by normal Thais. I would say its far more important to teach them other skills. However doctors and others that need it for their job should be taught better. But to say that everyone has to learn English here in a country where its almost not used. Why.. just some extra stuff they will never use.

Only to make some farangs happy that can't speak Thai themselves ?

Mind you I am talking here about Somchai in the motorcycle shop or Mai in the 711.. not Nung behind the counter of a hotel. Its not needed for everyone, so a lot of time is wasted. Just put extra effort in those who need it and forget about the rest.

I remember I had to learn to speak German, I hated it.. even though the Netherlands and Germany were trade partners many of us would never use German. So it was easy for us to dump it after a year or so. The same should be done to English for those who don't need it. There are enough resources wasted in Thai education why make it worse.

I am of course 100% against passing everyone that is crazy for any subject.

Rob, we're talking about Uni. students, not Somchai.