Thailand Brit murder suspects 'still waiting' on evidence review

[jdinasia]

If the video shows Nomsod leaving the premises (looking debonair, with no books or pack or papers, btw - going to class? ha, that's funny.)

......the same camera should also show when he entered the premises. Is that footage available? ....or perhaps there's a slight gap in the footage, ....shades of Nixon and his clumsy editing of the White House tapes. A week is a long time, if some computer whiz wanted to alter CCTV footage. Have cops interviewed the person who cuts Nomsod's hair in Bangkok? Have they spoken with the person(s) Nomsod or his lawyer would go to - if they needed some digital things fixed? Others that cops should have interviewed: Nomsod's mother, his girlfriend, his mates in the apartment, his teacher, the apartment manager, his schoolmates, and, any security guards in the vicinity. Yet more of the 1,000 basic things Thai investigators either didn't do, or screwed up. That '1,000 Things....' list may have to be upgraded to: '2,000 Things Which Thai Cops Didn't Do Regarding The Crime'

Now I'm expecting JD to shout again about 'defamation of character' lawsuits. ....and endless conspiracty theories. It's a good thing AleG and the rest of RTP echoers aren't working as detectives. On the plus side: Their jobs would be easy: they'd just accept at face value whatever the top brass declare, and not do any investigative work. On the down side: such ineptitude shortchanges the victims' families and the general public - because an inept or purposefully flawed investigation ensure dangerous criminals walk freely all over town - without a care of getting caught.

"Others that cops should have interviewed: Nomsod's mother, his girlfriend, his mates in the apartment, his teacher, the apartment manager, his schoolmates, and, any security guards in the vicinity."

And you know they didn't interview any of those people because...?

"It's a good thing AleG and the rest of RTP echoers aren't working as detectives. On the plus side: Their jobs would be easy: they'd just accept at face value whatever the top brass declare,"

If there is evidence for it, yes; now, how about you provide any evidence for what you claim? The altering of the footage, the police cover-up, any evidence that Nomsod was implicated on the murders, or do you expect people to take your theories at face value?

Anyone can come up with inane why-didn't-they and what-ifs ( "Have cops interviewed the person who cuts Nomsod's hair in Bangkok?" ), it doesn't make any of if true or relevant.

What is not known is the extent of the investigation. What is known is that prior to his promotion ; Panya announced that 2 people briefly looked at had been cleared.

The court case will be soon. (note - some of the people crying about how much time it took to begin the court case were screaming about the December 26th date when they thought it was beginning then - December 26th was only the first pre-trial hearing)

[sambum]

More conspiracy theories, and more defamation above

Whatever would you write if there wasn't such an expression as "conspiracy theory"?

[sambum]

Have you ever heard the expression "preaching to the choir"?

Actually, the expression is "preaching to the converted".

'Preaching to the choir' means you are trying to make believers out of people who already believe, or convince people who are already convinced

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=preaching+to+the+choir

Taken from English Language & Usage Stack Exchange, which is a question and answer site for linguists, etymologists, and serious English language enthusiasts.:-

Are preaching to the choir and preaching to the converted synonymous

Instead of: "explaining something to someone who already understands it" I would say: "arguing a controversial subject only with those who already share your opinion". GEdgar Jul 18 '12 at 18:18

@GEdgar Ooh I like that. I've added it to the question. Urbycoz Jul 19 '12 at 7:41

NB: I found the US expression very confusing when I first encountered it. In the chapels at my University the choir was generally the least religious group in the service since it was made up of people who liked to sing but might be atheists or at least without interest in religion. I think in many English churches it would be unusual to assume the choir was more religious than everyone else and in many cases less so. When I first heard "preaching to the choir" I assumed it meant the opposite of what it is intended to mean.

Edited June 8, 2015 by sambum

[berybert]

I am looking forward to the prosecution talking about the blond hair found on one of the bodies. This was one of the RTP's main break thrus.

Get the blond guy and you have solved the case. Or get 2 black haired guys pretend one of them was blond despite CCTV showing him not to be and solve the case anyway.

Who says the RTP had tunnel vision.

[berybert]

More conspiracy theories, and more defamation above

Whatever would you write if there wasn't such an expression as "conspiracy theory"?

Straw man was a previous favorite.

[JLCrab]

So in the context of why I posted that 'preaching' comment in the first place, some people and certain ones in particular spend a lot of time on this forum trying to convince other persons of something that most people on here already believe. And the persons of any consequence, who in their opinion have the greatest need need to be convinced, most likely don't read it at all although I guess it may somehow trickle down.

Edited June 8, 2015 by JLCrab

[sambum]

So in the context of why I posted that 'preaching' comment in the first place, some people and certain ones in particular spend a lot of time on this forum trying to convince other persons of something that most people on here already believe. And the persons of any consequence, who in their opinion have the greatest need need to be convinced, most likely don't read it at all although I guess it may somehow trickle down.

Gobbledegook! Can you not try to confuse people a bit more with your eloquence?

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.

[cumgranosalum]

So in the context of why I posted that 'preaching' comment in the first place, some people and certain ones in particular spend a lot of time on this forum trying to convince other persons of something that most people on here already believe. And the persons of any consequence, who in their opinion have the greatest need need to be convinced, most likely don't read it at all although I guess it may somehow trickle down.

Gobbledegook! Can you not try to confuse people a bit more with your eloquence?

Sambum - you realise your post says more about you than JLCrab?

[rockingrobin]

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

[boomerangutang]

One of the shielders mentioned there were many hours of CCTV camera footage of Nomsod's apartment lobby - for that weekend. We've all seen him supposedly leaving at 9:30 am on Monday (around 5 hours after the crime, carrying nothing, yet purportedly going to class), but is there any footage of him entering the same lobby? If so, it would be interesting to see it, and the time stamp.

[catsanddogs]

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

Yes - and the question is 'returning from where'?

[sambum]

So in the context of why I posted that 'preaching' comment in the first place, some people and certain ones in particular spend a lot of time on this forum trying to convince other persons of something that most people on here already believe. And the persons of any consequence, who in their opinion have the greatest need need to be convinced, most likely don't read it at all although I guess it may somehow trickle down.

Gobbledegook! Can you not try to confuse people a bit more with your eloquence?

Sambum - you realise your post says more about you than JLCrab?

Yes! I'm either easily confused, or to try to make sense of some of JLCrab's posts is too much like hard work!

[StealthEnergiser]

One of the shielders mentioned there were many hours of CCTV camera footage of Nomsod's apartment lobby - for that weekend. We've all seen him supposedly leaving at 9:30 am on Monday (around 5 hours after the crime, carrying nothing, yet purportedly going to class), but is there any footage of him entering the same lobby? If so, it would be interesting to see it, and the time stamp.

Not forgetting he also got his haircut after cctv pictures appeared of a person on the island with very similar long hair as him.

[AleG]

One of the shielders mentioned there were many hours of CCTV camera footage of Nomsod's apartment lobby - for that weekend. We've all seen him supposedly leaving at 9:30 am on Monday (around 5 hours after the crime, carrying nothing, yet purportedly going to class), but is there any footage of him entering the same lobby? If so, it would be interesting to see it, and the time stamp.

So you can then dismiss it as fake too?

The footage Thai PBS reviewed runs continuously from before the murders happened until hours after, the target of your obsession is not seen entering or leaving the lobby, elevators or corridors of the dormitory until approximately three hours after the bodies were found. To any reasonable individual that proves that he didn't enter or leave his dormitory until he is seen leaving, emphasis on reasonable individual.

[jdinasia]

Strangely, when I attended tests, and when I have taken tests here no books, bags etc were allowed. Just as strangely, my books etc are usually in my car, or under the seat of my bike.

But it's easier to believe that a nefarious conspiracy of all the police on the island (7)

And all the police and investigators who later went to the island...

And all of the people who live on the island....

And all of the foreigners who were on the island....

And all of the top brass in Thailand....

Are colluding....

[AleG]

Strangely, when I attended tests, and when I have taken tests here no books, bags etc were allowed. Just as strangely, my books etc are usually in my car, or under the seat of my bike.

But it's easier to believe that a nefarious conspiracy of all the police on the island (7)

And all the police and investigators who later went to the island...

And all of the people who live on the island....

And all of the foreigners who were on the island....

And all of the top brass in Thailand....

Are colluding....

You forgot the UK government is in too, according to the theories.

[AleG]

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

Yes - and the question is 'returning from where'?

You skipped the "if" before starting with the "why"s. First you have to establish if he said that and in reference to what question and when.

Picking up a single quote (translated from Thai by a notoriously error prone media) ignoring any context and then trying to assign some grand significance to it is disingenuous.

[MaxLee]

These boys are doomed to the Thai Justice system which means they are doomed period.

Yep, that's what it's about in the land ruled by influential mafia Elites...

[IslandLover]

I seek clarification: Did the judge say he will allow review of evidence - starting the first day of the trial, or that he may allow..... ?

Also, what sorts of restrictions are Thai authorities (judge included) putting on what can be reviewed? In the April announcement by the judge, bloody clothing was mentioned. Is bloody clothing still one of the categories which the judge will allow to be reviewed? How about the hoe?

Of course, the list of evidenciary things in this case which should be reviewed by professionals is long, but unfortunately (for the defendants and for the general public) the judge has a lot of power in deciding what can be reviewed. He may even want to micro-manage how it's reviewed. In other words, he may say the bloody hoe can be scrutinized for blood, but not for fingerprints. He may say only clothing found at the crime scene can be reviewed, but no other clothing. Ideally, everything related to the crime would be open for review by experts, but that's expecting too much. Lest we forget, even those who may be allowed to review evidence - are ONLY people from the ranks of Thai officialdom. Outsiders are precluded.

Is the judge aware that such reviews of evidence, will likely take days or weeks? Another judge earlier placed a 7 month time lag between arraignment and beginning trial date. Yet a replacement judge puts a SAME DAY time-frame for allowing the evidence to be reviewed. That's a ratio of over 200 to 1 when comparing the time for defense and prosecution to prepare for the trial, and the time allowance for review of evidence in relation to the trial start-date.

From the BBC:

Their defence lawyers have asked for the forensic evidence gathered by Thai police to be sent to independent experts.

But the judge in the case has said that he will not rule on the matter until the first day of the trial.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-32948790

From the Malaymailonline (which says a bit more):

In April a court on the nearby island of Koh Samui approved the defences request to independently analyse the evidence against their clients, including DNA and physical evidence at the crime scene such as blood stains and a shirt.

But the lead lawyer on the defence side said his team had been told by the court that they would only find out whether they can access the evidence on July 8 the first day of the trial.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/world/article/8-months-on-koh-tao-murder-suspects-still-waiting-on-evidence-review

This is all we know at the moment, but it looks like the defence team may not even be granted access to the evidence on July 8 - it depends on the whim of the judge (at least that's how I interpret it). This goes against everything that was agreed upon in the Samui court on April 30 and one seriously has to ask why? Just what are the prosecution/RTP afraid of?

You seem to be implying that the judge and the prosecution are on the same team, seeing how the judge must be scared of evidence being scrutinised.

If this is the case everyone may as well pack up and give those boys some blindfolds

They are on the same team, not only in this case but in many others in Thailand.

[rockingrobin]

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

Yes - and the question is 'returning from where'?

You skipped the "if" before starting with the "why"s. First you have to establish if he said that and in reference to what question and when.

Picking up a single quote (translated from Thai by a notoriously error prone media) ignoring any context and then trying to assign some grand significance to it is disingenuous.

To give context

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

They are also consulting lawyers to consider legal action for such allegations by the police that they were involved

http://www.chiangrai...in-koh-tao.html

[AleG]

With regards Nomsod , being on island , not being on island , to me the most convincing clue which has not yet been clarified is the fathers comment

He was returning to uni and not fleeing,

Who was he referring to when he apparently made this statement ?

Yes - and the question is 'returning from where'?

You skipped the "if" before starting with the "why"s. First you have to establish if he said that and in reference to what question and when.

Picking up a single quote (translated from Thai by a notoriously error prone media) ignoring any context and then trying to assign some grand significance to it is disingenuous.

To give context

Police questioned why Wiraphan’s son Warot, 22 quickly disappeared from the island shortly after the murders however he stated that his son was studying at a university in Bangkok and he was returning to study, not running as the police said.

They are also consulting lawyers to consider legal action for such allegations by the police that they were involved

http://www.chiangrai...in-koh-tao.html

As I said, counting on third hand accounts translated from Thai into English to find inconsistencies in a vague excerpt is pointless

First paragraph of that article "things have taken a bazaar twist." would you trust the translation work in that article? I wouldn't.

Since he wasn't on the island at that time then obviously that report is inaccurate, do you have an actual quote from the father instead of a reporter's paraphrase?

[rockingrobin]

Aleg

For further context (Nomsod), to be taken with fathers comments , returning to uni and not running

OK another article

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

A police source said the man they want to find landed on the Surat Thani coast and disappeared. Police say they want to interrogate him first

One of the two men released last night, who reporters did not identify, said he was unable to contact his son and did not know if he had a hand in the killings

Pol Lt-General Panya Mamen, who is overseeing the investigation, said yesterday that the headman's son is believed to be hiding in Bangkok. Panya refused to reveal the suspects' names, saying police were questioning one man and expected to arrest another in Bangkok today

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders

[AleG]

Aleg

For further context (Nomsod), to be taken with fathers comments , returning to uni and not running

OK another article

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

A police source said the man they want to find landed on the Surat Thani coast and disappeared. Police say they want to interrogate him first

One of the two men released last night, who reporters did not identify, said he was unable to contact his son and did not know if he had a hand in the killings

Pol Lt-General Panya Mamen, who is overseeing the investigation, said yesterday that the headman's son is believed to be hiding in Bangkok. Panya refused to reveal the suspects' names, saying police were questioning one man and expected to arrest another in Bangkok today

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders

Anything besides hearsay and speculation to show he was in Koh Tao and he had a hand in the killings?

There is real evidence that he was not there, unambiguous CCTV footage, witness testimony and university documents; you are counting on initial reports (which are usually inaccurate) and police statements based on unconfirmed leads that didn't pan out.

[ScarpoFongness4U]

Talking about obfuscation regarding CCTV evidence.

Some more thoughts on CCTV on the island that night. For starters, it would not be surprising if the CCTV camera which took the footage of 'running man' has been removed or re-positioned.

Secondly, there was mention (I can't recall the exact source) of 600+ hours of CCTV by various cameras taken near the crime location on that night and early morning. A police officer commented on that, saying something like "it will take a lot of time to look at all that footage." Whatever, but it may show some pertinent shots, particularly if Nomsod was on the island that night, which many people believe he was. All we've seen is a few seconds and a few 'still grabs.' Perhaps that's why the prosecution's case was so thick - they had to wade through all that footage and decide what could be incriminating against the B2 (all we've seen thus far is a few stills from 5 hours prior to the crime), ....and what might be incriminating to the H's people (that footage would likely be hidden or unmentioned or, most likely: destroyed).

Thirdly, there's the CCTV from one or both of the bars. We've heard that there was a request from cops for that footage, but it was declined, with managers saying something like "it's private property." If that happened, it's blatantly obstruction of justice (by bar managers) and dereliction of duty by the cop(s) who gave validity to such a soggy excuse. Any such CCTV footage would have been destroyed.a.s.a.p. before or after the cops came snooping around

What Boomerangutang describes as "a few seconds and a few 'still grabs" is, in reality, several hours of footage from several cameras that prove Nomsod (the man he insist should be the main suspect) was in Bangkok at the time of the murders.

Thai PBS journalists reviewed the entire footage and aired a segment on the matter, in it they show CCTV footage from before the time of the murders until several hours after the crime showing that Worawat didn't leave his apartment during the entire time. (starting from 3:17 on this video)

In short, "All we've seen is a few seconds and a few 'still grabs.'" is false, was false all the other times Boomerangutang made the same claim and will be false the next time he repeats it.

What is that, some sort of ballerina pose?

Why is he leaving a store empty handed?

[ScarpoFongness4U]

Aleg

For further context (Nomsod), to be taken with fathers comments , returning to uni and not running

OK another article

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Police-free-bar-owners-and-look-for-ex-village-hea-30243997.html

A police source said the man they want to find landed on the Surat Thani coast and disappeared. Police say they want to interrogate him first

One of the two men released last night, who reporters did not identify, said he was unable to contact his son and did not know if he had a hand in the killings

Pol Lt-General Panya Mamen, who is overseeing the investigation, said yesterday that the headman's son is believed to be hiding in Bangkok. Panya refused to reveal the suspects' names, saying police were questioning one man and expected to arrest another in Bangkok today

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders

Anything besides hearsay and speculation to show he was in Koh Tao and he had a hand in the killings?

There is real evidence that he was not there, unambiguous CCTV footage, witness testimony and university documents; you are counting on initial reports (which are usually inaccurate) and police statements based on unconfirmed leads that didn't pan out.

Some of us remember the police interviews when they were sure they knew who at least two members of the killing team were,

And that one was in custody and the other one fled,

We also remember there was a speedboat operator arrested that night

We also remember the headman stating his son was there but that he wasn't fleeing and then later that he haddnt spoken to him or seen him in weeks

We also remember how the police who made the first announcement were made to eat crow on TV and announced with their heads now down and clearly uncomfortable reporting that,

All the convincing evidence they had gathered over a few days which pointed directly at members of an influential family were all just a very big mistake and that they are very sorry, but, now they are leaving the case because they were just promoted to very lucrative positions even though they had just gravely mishandled the biggest tourist murders of their careers but,

They got a promotion and a pay raise and they hope tourism will now improve without their interference

I don't believe the murderers are in custody

I also dont have an Uncle Sutep

[cumgranosalum]

I fail to see discussing whether or not the 2 accused are innocent or not has any real relevance to the problem

the problem as I see it is that the whole issue from beginning to end has been handled so ineptly by the police, that it breaches almost all the norms for presentation of evidence and handling of a serious crime....the only conclusion one can reasonably come to is that ANY court case is so flawed that it has to be thrown out.

in other words guilty or not the trial should never take place for these guys and probably anyone else.

Thanks to the handling of this case.

[cumgranosalum]

As for video evidence - well come on...how could anyone be so naive as to think that "seeing is believing"?????

Edited June 9, 2015 by Scott

[JLCrab]

I fail to see discussing whether or not the 2 accused are innocent or not has any real relevance to the problem

the problem as I see it is that the whole issue from beginning to end has been handled so ineptly by the police, that it breaches almost all the norms for presentation of evidence and handling of a serious crime....the only conclusion one can reasonably come to is that ANY court case is so flawed that it has to be thrown out.

in other words guilty or not the trial should never take place for these guys and probably anyone else.

Thanks to the handling of this case.

And the Judge assigned to the case might answer the above objection as follows: These horrible crimes took place on a remote island accessible only by boat or helicopter with a limited police force on site. They and those who followed shortly thereafter did the best job that they could under difficult circumstances.

Objection overruled.

[boomerangutang]

One of the shielders mentioned there were many hours of CCTV camera footage of Nomsod's apartment lobby - for that weekend. We've all seen him supposedly leaving at 9:30 am on Monday (around 5 hours after the crime, carrying nothing, yet purportedly going to class), but is there any footage of him entering the same lobby? If so, it would be interesting to see it, and the time stamp.

So you can then dismiss it as fake too?

The footage Thai PBS reviewed runs continuously from before the murders happened until hours after, the target of your obsession is not seen entering or leaving the lobby, elevators or corridors of the dormitory until approximately three hours after the bodies were found. To any reasonable individual that proves that he didn't enter or leave his dormitory until he is seen leaving, emphasis on reasonable individual.

When did Nomsod enter the apartment lobby prior to supposedly leaving that morning? Has anyone seen that video, other than cops and the boy's handlers? Does that segment exist or has it been conveniently erased? According to AleG, there are many hours of CCTV prior to Monday morning.

But it's easier to believe that a nefarious conspiracy of all the police on the island (7)

And all the police and investigators who later went to the island...

And all of the people who live on the island....

And all of the foreigners who were on the island....

And all of the top brass in Thailand....

Are colluding....

If a PM claimed he had a bleeding ulcer, everyone would believe it. Yet, it would only take a 'conspiracy' (JD's favorite word) of the PM and his doctor to disseminate that idea. If every army person, every policeman, every citizen believed what the PM declared, then would it be a conspiracy by all those people? No, not for reasonable people. It would just be a belief in what was announced. But, for JDinasia, everyone believing the PM had a bleeding ulcer would be in on the conspiracy.

Now, segue to the DNA trail in this case: If top brass decided that, in order to nail the scapegoats and permanently excuse the H's people from suspicion, that the public needed to believe the B2's DNA matched samples found in/on Hannah - then only a very few people at the top of the pyramid would need to float that concept. Everyone else on down the ranks, would have only that announcement to chew on, so that's what they would believe, particularly if they were in lower ranks with the top brass announcers as their superior officers.

Even the lab techies wouldn't have to be in on the conspiracy. The techies process the samples they're given, then pass the data on to police heads. It was probably top brass who interpret the data how they please. Alternatively, if the techies interpretted the data as showing a different match (than the match the top brass wanted), then it's a simple matter of paying or otherwise hushing up the one or two techies. Paying hush-money happene all the time in Thailand. There are other ways to ensure silence, such as threats. The DNA trail is the primary issue that the defense wants re-examined (hopefully by objective professionals) ....and that's what the judge agreed to in April, but then changed. . . .

It would still be interesting to get the fast boat driver (the one who hid out in the woods, the night after the crime, and was too drugged-up to answer police questions) ....to speak what he really knows. But he, like the taxi driver who claimed he was offered big money (and beaten) by police to give false testimony .....are probably long gone, figuratively or literally. Mon the Handler will make sure we never hear from them again.