High electricity bills?

[Naam]

Interesting to see the leccy bills being bandied about, and pleased to see I'm in the 4-5000 Baht range depending on visitors in a three bedroomed villa. But 18-20K sounds excessive!

I have four ACs but only run one at a time depending on the room occupied. Plus side, is I've lived in Africa most of my life, so 27 Deg C is comfortable!

But a 12,000 unit uses round 4 kW, the equivalent of a four bar electric fire at full blast. I'm a stickler for keeping windows and doors closed. If the bill hits 5000 Baht I make economies.

only a pre-World War II built 12k btu/h unit will use 4kw actual consumption is approximately 1.1-1.2kWh.

Actual and approximate are a contradiction in terms. The Kw hours is based on the cycling ratio of the compressor, an unknown variable subject to circumstances.

next lesson (free of charge):

1. the actual consumption varies (up to ±10%) because it depends on half a dozen variables and can only be approximately estimated.

2. the rated cooling capacity "kilowatt hours" has nothing to do with any compressor cycling ratio.

summary: you are highly qualified to work in the marketing department of any aircon manufacturer where people who possess a wealth of zero technical knowledge invent fairy tales to bull... customers who too possess a wealth of zero technical knowledge.

no offence meant!

[bankruatsteve]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

[IMHO]

the cheating goes also on as far as different variables ambient/indoor temperatures and humidity are used and last not least the biggest cheating is done by stating "SEER efficiency" based on variables drawn out of thin air.

It's easy to do a ballpark conversion on SEER to EER:

EER = SEER * 0.875

What's not so easy is understanding whether the spec you're reading is EER or SEER - some specs sheets show "EER" and then clarify that it's "seasonal" in the asterisk notes...

The make it even worse, the 2015 updated "Label No. 5" standards in Thailand now use & display SEER ratings, but "Label No. 5" from previous years was using/displaying EER - so it's quite easy for the novice to think that AC's with 2015 5-star labels have magically jumped up in efficiency..

[Naam]

personally i consider the efficiency labels EER and SEER as efficient as the effiency of "whiteninng cream, whitening soap, whitening this and whitening that" products sold in Thailand

[Happy Grumpy]

A jump from around 2,500 to 4,500 two months ago seems to be about the norm (% wise).

Interesting to see it's what I and 2 other posters experienced. (3 bedroom house, 4 aircons, 2 fridges, with 2 computers on all day/night)

[IMHO]

personally i consider the efficiency labels EER and SEER as efficient as the effiency of "whiteninng cream, whitening soap, whitening this and whitening that" products sold in Thailand

Yep, they're about as reliable as fuel efficiency tests for cars

In the actual test for label no.5, the AC is run a box, with preset temperature and humidity, and a time limit to get the box atmosphere down to a specific temp. I don't recall what the numbers were - it's been a while since I watched one, but memory says it's something like 30c to 25c - a fairly small range.

It's a whole lot different to cooling 40c+ to 24c with active heat sources in a room, high humidity, and air distribution patterns that will rarely create even distribution....

Just as a car fully laden with passengers and luggage, going up mountains on a rough surfaced road, at 40c ambient temp, and at high altitude is completely different to the carefully controlled dyno tests they use to measure FE

[bankruatsteve]

personally i consider the efficiency labels EER and SEER as efficient as the effiency of "whiteninng cream, whitening soap, whitening this and whitening that" products sold in Thailand

"No.5" is good. "Whitening" is good. No good, no buy.

Makes sense to me.

[jacko45k]

I run a 25,000 BTU unit in the lounge from the time a wake till I go to bed. I turn the temp to 30 when I leave the house as I don't want to start the cooling process all over. My wife usually heads to the bedroom with the kids after dinner and they stream and play games on the TV. 15,000 BTU in that room. 12,000 in the kids room that is used from 8pm to 7am. My electric bill runs 4800 to 5500. No complaints. In fact, it's a cheap price to pay for comfort.

Haha, a bill like that would reduce my comfort levels.

But as to the OP I don't think that his bill is too bad for the amount of usage he is stating.

I manage with just AC all night in the bedroom and pay just under 3k this time of year.

[Naam]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

the problem is that one can't estimate weather conditions and (based on these conditions) ambient temperatures which affect the runtime of airconditioners.

[sandyf]

Interesting to see the leccy bills being bandied about, and pleased to see I'm in the 4-5000 Baht range depending on visitors in a three bedroomed villa. But 18-20K sounds excessive!

I have four ACs but only run one at a time depending on the room occupied. Plus side, is I've lived in Africa most of my life, so 27 Deg C is comfortable!

But a 12,000 unit uses round 4 kW, the equivalent of a four bar electric fire at full blast. I'm a stickler for keeping windows and doors closed. If the bill hits 5000 Baht I make economies.

only a pre-World War II built 12k btu/h unit will use 4kw actual consumption is approximately 1.1-1.2kWh.

Actual and approximate are a contradiction in terms. The Kw hours is based on the cycling ratio of the compressor, an unknown variable subject to circumstances.

next lesson (free of charge):

1. the actual consumption varies (up to ±10%) because it depends on half a dozen variables and can only be approximately estimated.

2. the rated cooling capacity "kilowatt hours" has nothing to do with any compressor cycling ratio.

summary: you are highly qualified to work in the marketing department of any aircon manufacturer where people who possess a wealth of zero technical knowledge invent fairy tales to bull... customers who too possess a wealth of zero technical knowledge.

no offence meant!

In a previous life I used to design Industrial ovens and well aware of how power calculations are carried on thermostatic appliances. If you want a reference try Team Lotus, I made their drying chamber.

For you information the Cooling Capacity is stated on the data plate as Kilowatts and not Kilowatt hours.

Get your facts right before trying to lecture someone.

[sandyf]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

An ammeter will only measure the current at any point in time, what you need is a wattmeter.

[bankruatsteve]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

An ammeter will only measure the current at any point in time, what you need is a wattmeter.

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

[IMHO]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

An ammeter will only measure the current at any point in time, what you need is a wattmeter.

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

Watts = volts x amps x power factor.

Amps is only part of the story - watts is what you pay for

[Crossy]

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

Watts = volts x amps x power factor.

Amps is only part of the story - watts is what you pay for

You actually pay for Watt - hours (or kilowatt - hours) the thingy with the numbers and rotating disc is a Watt-hour meter. It has connections to measure voltage and current, the magnetic circuit that spins the disc takes account of Power Factor.

Don't forget, an aircon is a non-constant load (compressor on vs compressor off) so you actually need to average the consumption over a long period.

[bankruatsteve]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

An ammeter will only measure the current at any point in time, what you need is a wattmeter.

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

Watts = volts x amps x power factor.

Amps is only part of the story - watts is what you pay for

What you pay for is watts over time (electrical energy:KWH) as measured by "the meter". Not sure if PF has anything to do with that.

My point was (trying to be) that a watt meter is also a measure of power at any point in time and certainly not as readily available or convenient to use as an inductive ammeter (including volt meter) for the purpose of estimating actual energy consumption.

Hook up a KWH meter to your A/C circuit(s) would be the most accurate measure I suppose.

[Crossy]

Hook up a KWH meter to your A/C circuit(s) would be the most accurate measure I suppose.

Cheap and readily available too

[billphillips]

Your meter is without doubt too small for the load that you talk of. A 5a meter will go up to a 15a load but not on a regular basis. Once 15a is exceeded for a prolonged time the overload link will melt and you will be without power until the meter can be replaced. For sure that will happen at the most inconvenient time. You need a 15a meter, that can deliver up to 45a for short periods. The correct size of cable from the new 15/45 meter should be 10mm (to your distribution / fuse box). That's the most common size over here and approximates to about 6mm (including insulation) diameter. The electric co surveyor will check this before authorising a new 15a meter.

For what it's worth .... your electric bills seem to be about right to me.

[bankruatsteve]

Thought I read somewhere this forum that the meters here do not have overload protection. (?) In any case, my suggestion is to contact your local PEA about requirements for meter upgrade before doing anything else. IE: the wire size and type can vary depending on distance from meter and whether they like Cu or Al.

[Crossy]

You may be right Steve, they can certainly withstand massive (>100%) overloads for extended periods without going open circuit.

[sandyf]

If you all really need to know the actual "consumption" of your A/C, get an ammeter and measure the A/C circuit(s) like once an hour over whatever extended period you feel like doing it. Expensive ammeters can do that for you. Convert that to KWH for the number of hours you use the A/C over a day/month/whatever and you have your electric units to then multiply by whatever your electric units cost.

An ammeter will only measure the current at any point in time, what you need is a wattmeter.

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

It is a long time since I worked with test equipment so rather than commit to ageing grey cells, someone else's description.

The traditional analog wattmeter is an electrodynamic instrument. The device consists of a pair of fixed coils, known as current coils, and a movable coil known as the potential coil.

The current coils connected in series with the circuit, while the potential coil is connected in parallel. Also, on analog wattmeters, the potential coil carries a needle that moves over a scale to indicate the measurement. A current flowing through the current coil generates an electromagnetic field around the coil. The strength of this field is proportional to the line current and in phase with it. The potential coil has, as a general rule, a high-value resistor connected in series with it to reduce the current that flows through it.

The result of this arrangement is that on a dc circuit, the deflection of the needle is proportional to both the current (I) and the voltage (V), thus conforming to the equation P=VI.

For AC power, current and voltage may not be in phase, owing to the delaying effects of circuit inductance or capacitance. On an ac circuit the deflection is proportional to the average instantaneous product of voltage and current, thus measuring true power, P=VI cos φ. Here, cosφ represents the power factor which shows that the power transmitted may be less than the apparent power obtained by multiplying the readings of a voltmeter and ammeter in the same circuit.

[sandyf]

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

Watts = volts x amps x power factor.

Amps is only part of the story - watts is what you pay for

You actually pay for Watt - hours (or kilowatt - hours) the thingy with the numbers and rotating disc is a Watt-hour meter. It has connections to measure voltage and current, the magnetic circuit that spins the disc takes account of Power Factor.

Don't forget, an aircon is a non-constant load (compressor on vs compressor off) so you actually need to average the consumption over a long period.

Quite right. As I have said in previous posts, usage, consumption etc, is relative to time and cannot be stated. Only instantaneous power can be stated. This is fundamental to all thermostatic and energy regulated appliances. It does not matter what is being controlled, compressor, heating elements or the burner in a gas oven, the power being used is subject to regulation and can only be measured by summation with respect to time.

[billphillips]

Interesting. What exactly would a "wattmeter" measure and what would make that different from an ammeter?

Watts = volts x amps x power factor.

Amps is only part of the story - watts is what you pay for

You actually pay for Watt - hours (or kilowatt - hours) the thingy with the numbers and rotating disc is a Watt-hour meter. It has connections to measure voltage and current, the magnetic circuit that spins the disc takes account of Power Factor.

Don't forget, an aircon is a non-constant load (compressor on vs compressor off) so you actually need to average the consumption over a long period.

Quite right. As I have said in previous posts, usage, consumption etc, is relative to time and cannot be stated. Only instantaneous power can be stated. This is fundamental to all thermostatic and energy regulated appliances. It does not matter what is being controlled, compressor, heating elements or the burner in a gas oven, the power being used is subject to regulation and can only be measured by summation with respect to time.

I agree with the last paragraph totally and would like to add; that irrespective of what your equipment is recording it is the power companies meter that has the final say. Does anyone here really think that they can have an in depth discussion based on technical equipment and know how, versus, the local level of interest and training. That's one place I don't want to go thank you.

[merlen10002]

I wish I had 1800. Mine has risen from about 18000 to about 23000 in hot and rainy season.

i concede defeat. you beat my last years june/july record bill of 20,683 Baht.

I think both are living in the wrong country, what happens if you go out side and no A/C , you must be that uncomfortable it a wonder you can stand it, very happy I am not you two.

[Naam]

I wish I had 1800. Mine has risen from about 18000 to about 23000 in hot and rainy season.

i concede defeat. you beat my last years june/july record bill of 20,683 Baht.

I think both are living in the wrong country, what happens if you go out side and no A/C , you must be that uncomfortable it a wonder you can stand it, very happy I am not you two.

if i lived in my home country i'd spend more than double the money for combined airconditioning and especially heating not to mention a multiple on clothing. for a bunch of other reasons i claim that i live in the "right" country and i'm very happy that i can afford the comfort of a moderate climate in my home.

by the way, i'm also very happy that i am not you

[Happy Grumpy]

Anyone gotten their May one yet?

Ours is dated to the 11th June so will arrive next week.

[Naam]

Anyone gotten their May one yet?

Ours is dated to the 11th June so will arrive next week.

don't expect it to be lower

[merlen10002]

I wish I had 1800. Mine has risen from about 18000 to about 23000 in hot and rainy season.

i concede defeat. you beat my last years june/july record bill of 20,683 Baht.

I think both are living in the wrong country, what happens if you go out side and no A/C , you must be that uncomfortable it a wonder you can stand it, very happy I am not you two.

if i lived in my home country i'd spend more than double the money for combined airconditioning and especially heating not to mention a multiple on clothing. for a bunch of other reasons i claim that i live in the "right" country and i'm very happy that i can afford the comfort of a moderate climate in my home.

by the way, i'm also very happy that i am not you

WHY ?

[Naam]

I wish I had 1800. Mine has risen from about 18000 to about 23000 in hot and rainy season.

I think both are living in the wrong country, what happens if you go out side and no A/C , you must be that uncomfortable it a wonder you can stand it, very happy I am not you two.

if i lived in my home country i'd spend more than double the money for combined airconditioning and especially heating not to mention a multiple on clothing. for a bunch of other reasons i claim that i live in the "right" country and i'm very happy that i can afford the comfort of a moderate climate in my home.

by the way, i'm also very happy that i am not you

WHY ?

because i hate sweating. my sweating for years when working in the Arabian desert, African bush and Bengali swamps is enough for five life times.

now i prefer a comfortable 26ºC in every corner of my home or in my cars. case closed!

[KittenKong]

I wish I had 1800. Mine has risen from about 18000 to about 23000 in hot and rainy season.

i concede defeat. you beat my last years june/july record bill of 20,683 Baht.

I think both are living in the wrong country, what happens if you go out side and no A/C , you must be that uncomfortable it a wonder you can stand it, very happy I am not you two.

Most men like to have willy-waving contests. Maybe those who wave their electricity bills instead just have no willy worth waving? Personally I would be prouder of being comfortable without spending a lot of money than to have to spend tens of thousands to be comfortable, but each to his own.

As for my comfort, I dont like the outdoor temperature/humidity here except in the cooler/less humid winter months. There are also many other things that I dont like here (traffic, noise, dishonesty) but these are minor irritations that have little impact on my day to day life. And there are (mostly financial) advantages to living here that more than make up for the inconveniences. Thailand is a compromise for me and I certainly would not object to moving somewhere cooler if those other advantages could be maintained; in fact I would be gone like a shot. But I doubt that a perfect location exists.

As for my own electricity bill, it used to cost me around 3000-5000B to keep my condo at the uniform 27 degree temperature that I like 24/7, but since replacing my old no-name aircon unit with a good new inverter model the same bill has dropped to around 1200-1800B, depending on the time of year. I pay the government rate of just over 4B and I am very happy to wave my small bill around.

[itsbecca]

I need some help I feel like we're getting fleeced. They're asking us to pay 10 baht per unit.

I know it's common for condos/hotels to charge above government rate, so I was expecting that, but this seems like a pretty big hike? We're in Chiang Mai, and I believe this would technically be a hotel stay since we don't have a lease, but we have a monthly rate. The meter is in the room so we see the usage and I think it's about right for regular air con use, since we work from home (about 750 kwh). But at 10 baht per unit that makes it higher than our rent...

Is this type of rate common or are they just trying to take advantage of us since it's low period and they need to make up for lack of customers? We're here for four more months, so I need to know if we should be pushing back to get a lower rate per unit or if we're just going to have to get used to sweating a little bit more at home.