Families: No justice in Israeli inquiry on Gaza beach deaths

[konying]

Nothing is greater than a parents' love for their children. To have their innocent children murdered by the IDF while they were playing football on the beach is obscene.

Then to have the Israelis who pulled the trigger saying we are not to blame, just adds insult to the injury. No-one is brought to account let alone justice for this crime.

No wonder the Palestinians must resort to the ICC if they have any hope of discovering the truth.

The very same parents who let their kids play in war zone? Yeah true love

[Jingthing]

I wouldn't be blaming the parents at all for this unless we have some more information about the specific circumstances. I would be blaming WAR. Now why was there a war then? Could it have something to with Hamas firing rockets into Israel, etc.?

[jdinasia]

Clearly killing those kids on the beach was a war crime.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[ggold]

The moral outrage of some of our esteemed members would seem a tad more believable, not to mention less hypocritical if it were ever directed at Hamas, who were responsible for the deaths of 160 Palestinian children who were forced to dig tunnels under the Israeli border in order to mount terrorist attacks. Without proof of Israeli knowledge that they were not targeting Hamas operatives your shouts of 'murder' are nothing more than blood libel, I wonder whether the press started this or merely repeated it?

That would be off topic and we all knows what happens if we stray off topic.

Why would it be off topic? It is just as relevant, what of the kids had come fresh from digging one of those tunnels? While it is tragic, you have to wonder why their parents allowed them to play in a war zone rather than sheltering somewhere safe?

Maybe because hamas don't build shelters for their people, When one group of Arabs wanted to take shelter in one of those shelters reserved for hamas fighters, They were shot at. Hamas like dead children and civilians, for their propaganda machine. Even blaming the deaths of kids digging tunnels on Israel.

Edited June 13, 2015 by ggold

[Jingthing]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

[ggold]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

I agree with you, For all we know Hamas could have forced the kids to play there to cover their own terrorist activities!

[Seastallion]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

You're disgustingly grasping at straws to try to find some justification in those children's deaths by connecting them to Hamas. Disgusting. Not even the IDF have tried to draw that very long bow.

[ggold]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

You're disgustingly grasping at straws to try to find some justification in those children's deaths by connecting them to Hamas. Disgusting. Not even the IDF have tried to draw that very long bow.

http://www.aijac.org.au/news/article/kids-to-jihadists

On January 24, many Sunni Muslims celebrated the birth of Islam's founder Muhammad. As the Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh reported, Gaza's Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh announced during a ceremony to mark this occasion that Hamas was planning to establish a "military academy" that would offer training to children as young as 12. The children attending the school would be able to "graduate with a diploma or a BA in military affairs."

Why the pretence of disgust? If you know anything of Gaza you would know that Hamas actively train kids as soldiers. It is in fact a very short bow!

Edited June 13, 2015 by ggold

[lungbing]

At roughly the same time as this happened a Palestinian boy was kidnapped and later burned to death.

What happened in that case?

[Linky]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

You're disgustingly grasping at straws to try to find some justification in those children's deaths by connecting them to Hamas. Disgusting. Not even the IDF have tried to draw that very long bow.

http://www.aijac.org.au/news/article/kids-to-jihadists

On January 24, many Sunni Muslims celebrated the birth of Islam's founder Muhammad. As the Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh reported, Gaza's Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh announced during a ceremony to mark this occasion that Hamas was planning to establish a "military academy" that would offer training to children as young as 12. The children attending the school would be able to "graduate with a diploma or a BA in military affairs."

Why the pretence of disgust? If you know anything of Gaza you would know that Hamas actively train kids as soldiers. It is in fact a very short bow!

Disgusting because now you are making things up to try and justfy this murder.

Please provide a link proving these kids were involved. If you cant then you are plane trolling about the poor death of children, and doing that is disgusting.

[konying]

At roughly the same time as this happened a Palestinian boy was kidnapped and later burned to death.

What happened in that case?

Do you mean after 4 Jewish teenagers were kidnapped and murdered?

Well the settler responsible was caught , charged and convicted, while Hamas operatives who killed the kids were hiding among Palestinians, though I believe eventually caught by IDF, certainly not by Palestinian Authority

Edited June 13, 2015 by konying

[konying]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

You're disgustingly grasping at straws to try to find some justification in those children's deaths by connecting them to Hamas. Disgusting. Not even the IDF have tried to draw that very long bow.

http://www.aijac.org.au/news/article/kids-to-jihadists

On January 24, many Sunni Muslims celebrated the birth of Islam's founder Muhammad. As the Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh reported, Gaza's Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh announced during a ceremony to mark this occasion that Hamas was planning to establish a "military academy" that would offer training to children as young as 12. The children attending the school would be able to "graduate with a diploma or a BA in military affairs."

Why the pretence of disgust? If you know anything of Gaza you would know that Hamas actively train kids as soldiers. It is in fact a very short bow!

Disgusting because now you are making things up to try and justfy this murder.

Please provide a link proving these kids were involved. If you cant then you are plane trolling about the poor death of children, and doing that is disgusting.

Please provide link they were not with certainty

[Scott]

Please stay on topic.

[Jingthing]

Anyway, know we've got the IDF report.

We've got the family reactions.

And we've got Hamas still again brainwashing the Gaza children into Jihadism and anti-Jewish racism, rearming, and building more tunnels.

Cycle continues.

Despite sustaining significant damage to its infrastructure and capacity for violence during the previous conflict, Hamas in Gaza is once again resurgent – replenishing its weapons stockpiles and resuming construction of its offensive terror tunnel system.

Without counter-measures, it appears highly likely that Hamas will soon have the means to fight a fourth war ...

http://henryjacksonsociety.org/2015/03/11/unreformed-hamas-is-rearming-for-further-escalation-and-poses-a-serious-danger-to-stability-warns-henry-jackson-society-policy-paper-2/

Literally ...

From the Hamas POV, the tragic deaths of the children on the beach did further their openly stated goals, of ending the existence of Israel, because the videos of the incident have proved to have powerful international propaganda value in portraying Jewish Israel as evil child killing demons. Out of context of the reasons for that war and the military difficulties in waging it for Israel, it is understandable that so many people have had an emotional reaction to those pictures.

Don't be deluded ... press propaganda is something Hamas cares about very much ... indeed, they are doing very well with that tactic.

Next ...

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[ggold]

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-did-not-commit-war-crimes-in-gaza-says-multi-national-military-group/

Ex-generals, chiefs of staff, say IDF’s ‘scrupulous adherence’ to laws of war cost Israeli lives, army took ‘extensive measures’ to protect Gazan civilians.

“Each of our own armies is of course committed to protecting civilian life during combat. But none of us is aware of any army that takes such extensive measures as did the IDF last summer to protect the lives of the civilian population in such circumstances,” the report read.

While acknowledging that some Palestinian deaths were caused by some errors and misjudgements during the war, the panel said Hamas and other Gaza-based terror groups “as the aggressors and the users of human shield” were responsible for “the overwhelming majority of deaths in Gaza this summer.”

[jdinasia]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

You're disgustingly grasping at straws to try to find some justification in those children's deaths by connecting them to Hamas. Disgusting. Not even the IDF have tried to draw that very long bow.

"demonizing children "

[up-country_sinclair]

Mohammad Ramiz Bakr was eleven years old when Israel killed him while he was playing football on the beach.

Ahed Atef Bakr and Zakariya Ahed Bakr were ten years old when Israel killed them while they were playing football on the beach.

.

Ismail Mahmoud Bakr was nine years old when Israel killed him while he was playing football on the beach.

[Linky]

Yes, I would include the blame on Hamas for provoking that war but as I don't think we have any credible details about the exact circumstances of those parents, I wouldn't get that specific about blaming those parents. In general, it is a fact that many quite young children are involved in the Hamas military activities as well, but knowing that it's a stretch to implicate those specific children without details.

You're disgustingly grasping at straws to try to find some justification in those children's deaths by connecting them to Hamas. Disgusting. Not even the IDF have tried to draw that very long bow.

http://www.aijac.org.au/news/article/kids-to-jihadists

On January 24, many Sunni Muslims celebrated the birth of Islam's founder Muhammad. As the Jerusalem Post's Khaled Abu Toameh reported, Gaza's Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh announced during a ceremony to mark this occasion that Hamas was planning to establish a "military academy" that would offer training to children as young as 12. The children attending the school would be able to "graduate with a diploma or a BA in military affairs."

Why the pretence of disgust? If you know anything of Gaza you would know that Hamas actively train kids as soldiers. It is in fact a very short bow!

Disgusting because now you are making things up to try and justfy this murder.

Please provide a link proving these kids were involved. If you cant then you are plane trolling about the poor death of children, and doing that is disgusting.

Please provide link they were not with certainty

The link is provided, the Israeli report. It makes no mention of it. The facts are that they were kids playing and were bombed. Now if you want to prove something else then out with it.

It takes a special kind of person to blatantly lie to degrade dead children and It is beyond words to describe the type of person that would do such a thing.

[Linky]

Mohammad Ramiz Bakr was eleven years old when Israel killed him while he was playing football on the beach.

Ahed Atef Bakr and Zakariya Ahed Bakr were ten years old when Israel killed them while they were playing football on the beach.

.

Ismail Mahmoud Bakr was nine years old when Israel killed him while he was playing football on the beach.

Yet some on here are trying to justfy it by spreading lies. Abhorrent.

[Jingthing]

What lies?

That tragically the children were playing in the middle of an active military zone?

That is war.

Hamas asked for war.

Hamas is preparing for the next war.

Don't fall for the Hamas propaganda, however clever, ... their goal is to end Israel and Israel has no choice but to fight them.

Also when you hear the stats on Arab youths killed in the last war, keep in mind that they were not all innocents, as even though young, many children were active Hamas combatants.

No, I'm NOT saying the children in this story were ... I have no idea about their personal stories or families, but certainly many Gaza young children are getting military training and indoctrination.

Israel demonizers can act like this isn't real, the Jihadist brainwashing the children of Gaza get from Hamas, but it is real, and that's what Israel has to deal with. No peace anytime soon ... no way.

(Also, of course it is not knowable exactly how many of the Gaza side deaths were of combatants, and how many weren't, how many were actually killed internally and blamed on Israel, but you can be very sure that the percentage of innocents is wildly distorted by Hamas propaganda.)

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

I think the bigger issue is that Israel was dealing with an enemy where many of the combatants were actually very young. Also it is known Hamas uses human shields. Nobody here is saying that these particular children were combatants.

[Scott]

Posts have been removed. Stick to the topic.

[dexterm]

What an amazing debate.

Israeli apologist arguments run the gamut of outright denial as does the OP that the IDF are completely blameless yet without any transparent presentation of evidence.

Then it was justifiable homicide because the entire Gaza strip was a war zone, the exclusive realm of extremists including the journalists from the Guardian and the New York Times in the popular hotel opposite witnessing the whole atrocity.

Then we had deflection: yeah, maybe IDF did do it but what about illegal immigration into Europe??

Then we finally plumbed the depths by blaming the parents: they are looking not for justice for the love of their kids but compensation money, and further distortion: what were they doing actually allowing their children to play in Gaza?

No ... then it got worse: the innocent child victims themselves were to blame : the kids would probably have grown to adulthood if they had not been blown apart, and ....I couldn't believe it...they had just come from digging tunnels for Hamas.

Wouldn't it have been an enormous boost to IDF credibility if they had simply said:

Yes, we made a mistake because ...someone misread the coordinates, ... or we had some trigger happy gunner..or orders had come from on high that if it moves, shoot it...whatever ... and the person(s) involved are under investigation, charged or punished or our rules of engagement have been seriously revised.

Or even a totally open transparent presentation of all the evidence available to allow the world to decide, if the IDF can't.

Imagine the impact. Past and future IDF inquiries would have become far more believable.

But no, we are left with the usual: the IDF can do no wrong...which of course is ridiculous, be a first for any army in history and no-one believes it. Does more harm than good for Israel.

Edited June 13, 2015 by dexterm

[Thorgal]

Quote from link :

"Given this prevailing state of affairs, it is necessary to take into account the already complex reality and asymmetry which law-abiding states are compelled to deal with and to beware in particular of imposing additional legal and operational burdens which serve only to exacerbate the asymmetry and make it more difficult to deal with terrorist organizations."

http://www.law.idf.il/592-6584-en/Patzar.aspx

In other words : 'Just let us do the things like we are used to do...'

Edited June 13, 2015 by Thorgal

[Jingthing]

Quote from link :

"Given this prevailing state of affairs, it is necessary to take into account the already complex reality and asymmetry which law-abiding states are compelled to deal with and to beware in particular of imposing additional legal and operational burdens which serve only to exacerbate the asymmetry and make it more difficult to deal with terrorist organizations."

http://www.law.idf.il/592-6584-en/Patzar.aspx

In other words : 'Just let us do the things like we are used to do...'

I have a better idea. Hamas -- just stop preparing for the next aggressive war against Israel, invest in rebuilding for a PEACEFUL society instead of sacrificing your babies in terror tunnel building, and stop training your kiddies to be cute little Jihadists.

Then the IDF won't have to worry about asymmetrical warfare at least in Gaza.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

Quote from link :

"Given this prevailing state of affairs, it is necessary to take into account the already complex reality and asymmetry which law-abiding states are compelled to deal with and to beware in particular of imposing additional legal and operational burdens which serve only to exacerbate the asymmetry and make it more difficult to deal with terrorist organizations."

http://www.law.idf.il/592-6584-en/Patzar.aspx

In other words : 'Just let us do the things like we are used to do...'

I have a better idea. Hamas -- just stop preparing for the next aggressive war against Israel, invest in rebuilding for a PEACEFUL society instead of sacrificing your babies in terror tunnel building, and stop training your kiddies to be cute little Jihadists.

hamas-kid-1-300x160.jpg

Then the IDF won't have to worry about asymmetrical warfare at least in Gaza.

I have a better idea than that:

Why doesn't Israel stop firing at fisherman and farmers crossing an imaginary line that only the IDF know, gradually lift the blockade and allow Gazans to invest in rebuilding a peaceful society.

Idle hands through blockade = resentment = trouble brewing.

Full employment with peace and prosperity = I don't want to go back to the bad old days.

[Linky]

Quote from link :

"Given this prevailing state of affairs, it is necessary to take into account the already complex reality and asymmetry which law-abiding states are compelled to deal with and to beware in particular of imposing additional legal and operational burdens which serve only to exacerbate the asymmetry and make it more difficult to deal with terrorist organizations."

http://www.law.idf.il/592-6584-en/Patzar.aspx

In other words : 'Just let us do the things like we are used to do...'

I have a better idea. Hamas -- just stop preparing for the next aggressive war against Israel, invest in rebuilding for a PEACEFUL society instead of sacrificing your babies in terror tunnel building, and stop training your kiddies to be cute little Jihadists.

hamas-kid-1-300x160.jpg

Then the IDF won't have to worry about asymmetrical warfare at least in Gaza.

What does this have to do with the murdered children? Abhorrent attempt to deflect yet again.

[Jingthing]

Quote from link :

"Given this prevailing state of affairs, it is necessary to take into account the already complex reality and asymmetry which law-abiding states are compelled to deal with and to beware in particular of imposing additional legal and operational burdens which serve only to exacerbate the asymmetry and make it more difficult to deal with terrorist organizations."

http://www.law.idf.il/592-6584-en/Patzar.aspx

In other words : 'Just let us do the things like we are used to do...'

I have a better idea. Hamas -- just stop preparing for the next aggressive war against Israel, invest in rebuilding for a PEACEFUL society instead of sacrificing your babies in terror tunnel building, and stop training your kiddies to be cute little Jihadists.

hamas-kid-1-300x160.jpg

Then the IDF won't have to worry about asymmetrical warfare at least in Gaza.

What does this have to do with the murdered children? Abhorrent attempt to deflect yet again.

Can't take your post seriously. There was no murder. There was an active war going on and tragically these children were playing in the middle of an active combat zone and yes, horribly, got killed. It was a very bad time to be playing on the beach in that area. Of course they are not to blame but as far as blame for their deaths, you can't put this only on Israel, to be fair you also have to put it on Hamas.

As far as your dim personal attack, I was responding to the text from the IDF report posted by Mr. Thorgal ... agreeing that IDF and other civilized nation's armies have sticky complex difficulties fighting terrorist forces like Hamas. We're not uninformed morons here ... we know about the extremist ideology and tactics of Hamas.

I don't know what country you're from, but I reckon if you had Jihadist terrorists launching rockets into it and digging aggressive tunnels under your nation's soil you'd be singing a different tune.

But oddly so many people who would fully support a robust response if it was their own country facing such terrorist aggression, somehow can't understand how Israel must do the same.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Jingthing

[Linky]

Quote from link :

"Given this prevailing state of affairs, it is necessary to take into account the already complex reality and asymmetry which law-abiding states are compelled to deal with and to beware in particular of imposing additional legal and operational burdens which serve only to exacerbate the asymmetry and make it more difficult to deal with terrorist organizations."

http://www.law.idf.il/592-6584-en/Patzar.aspx

In other words : 'Just let us do the things like we are used to do...'

I have a better idea. Hamas -- just stop preparing for the next aggressive war against Israel, invest in rebuilding for a PEACEFUL society instead of sacrificing your babies in terror tunnel building, and stop training your kiddies to be cute little Jihadists.

hamas-kid-1-300x160.jpg

Then the IDF won't have to worry about asymmetrical warfare at least in Gaza.

What does this have to do with the murdered children? Abhorrent attempt to deflect yet again.

Can't take your post seriously. There was no murder. There was an active war going on and tragically these children were playing in the middle of an active combat zone and yes, horribly, got killed. It was a very bad time to be playing on the beach in that area. Of course they are not to blame but as far as blame for their deaths, you can't put this only on Israel, to be fair you also have to put it on Hamas.

As far as your dim personal attack, I was responding to the text from the IDF report posted by Mr. Thorgal ... agreeing that IDF and other civilized nation's armies have sticky complex difficulties fighting terrorist forces like Hamas. We're not uninformed morons here ... we about the extremist ideology and tactics of Hamas.

I don't know what country you're from, but I reckon if you had Jihadist terrorists launching rockets into it and digging aggressive tunnels under your soil you'd be singing a different tune.

No matter what is happening there is no excuse to murder children. Israel obviously did not know who they were but bombed them anyway in the hope they were Hamas.

Murder and war crimes all bundled into one.