Families: No justice in Israeli inquiry on Gaza beach deaths

[Ulysses G.]

There is very little evidence of Israel's innocence in the matter....not until they release battle footage. Why won't they? It makes all the sense in the world to release that footage...IF they are innocent, and it makes all the sense in the world to hide that footage IF they are guilty.

Who do you think you are fooling? You made an accusation that you can't back up with any proof and anyone can see it in black and white. Quit denying the obvious.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Chicog]

In other words, neither of you can prove your accusation. "Facts" have credible evidence to support them, which you never seem capable of providing. You are great at making things up from thin air, not so great at proving these blatant lies.

I would have thought it would be very easy for you to prove that they have in fact released the footage.

The fact that you of all people haven't done so pretty well confirms to be that they haven't. You would never miss a smugness opportunity like that!

[Scott]

I would VERY, VERY, VERY strongly suggest the bickering stop and members get back to the topic.

Continue with off-topic, inflammatory and personal remarks at your own peril.

[jdinasia]

Sorry, but the Geneva Conventions clearly state that you have to know where your bombs are falling.

To attempt to claim self-defense because HAMAS used kids in the past as human shields doesn't meet the requirements. Israel has used kids as human shields too. Equally irrelevant when discussing rockets fired from Gaza.

I love these people that revert to the Geneva Convention.

What does it say about indiscriminate death by suicide vest and early detonation of VBIED's ?

See paragraph 2- covered there.

When discussing war crimes, what would you have people cite?

BTW - it wouldn't bother me in the least if HAMAS was brought up on war crime charges.

Both sides have committed atrocities. They deserve to be charged. Only one side, however, is occupied. It is a requirement that an occupying force protect civilians, not kill children on the beach.

Like I said. Not my argument.

Both sides need to stop the blame game, accept what has happened and move forward for the greater good.

Screaming war crimes is a useless waste of time, when it is abundantly clear that is a charge that could be levelled at both sides.

Nope, both sides need to be held accountable for the war crimes.

[Steely Dan]

If the father of the dead boys wants justice perhaps he should start at the beginning and read the autopsy report to learn exactly how and when his sons died. Or could it be true that there were no autopsies carried out and the bodies were buried with indecent haste? One would have thought that fragments of Israeli munitions pulled from the bodies would be just the sort of evidence that would confirm the Palestinian version of events.

Some of our esteemed members seem very keen on Israel publishing everything that was recorded, surely they would equally ask the Hamas officials to at least publish the autopsy reports?

I think the father is well aware how they died. Numerous journalists reported them being blown to smitherines.

Numerous journalists have lied about Israel in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. Here is an article about the Mohammad Al Durrah hoax.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2012/02/16/another-blow-against-propagandists-still-clinging-to-the-al-durrah-hoax/

I believe a documentary is being considered by the man who painstakingly examined the available press footage for the Bakr children's deaths, though this thread will be no doubt be ancient history by then.

The IDF isn't denying they killed the kids.

The sole remit of the IDF investigation was to establish why or not Israeli troops had acted illegally. As for what they 'admit', let me remind you that at first they admitted responsibility for the death of Mohammad Al Durrah. Pallywood enterprises are designed to not only fool the public and their press proxies , but to also fool the Israelis. So of course the Israelis targeted the area where the boys were apparently killed and at the approximate time they died.

With the Mohammad Al Dura case there was no autopsy and no body to be found. There were to my knowledge no,autopsies carried out on the four Bakr boys. This is not a mere academic point or unwarranted pedantry it is the very corner stone of justice presuming innocence unless guilt is proven.

[jdinasia]

If the father of the dead boys wants justice perhaps he should start at the beginning and read the autopsy report to learn exactly how and when his sons died. Or could it be true that there were no autopsies carried out and the bodies were buried with indecent haste? One would have thought that fragments of Israeli munitions pulled from the bodies would be just the sort of evidence that would confirm the Palestinian version of events.

Some of our esteemed members seem very keen on Israel publishing everything that was recorded, surely they would equally ask the Hamas officials to at least publish the autopsy reports?

I think the father is well aware how they died. Numerous journalists reported them being blown to smitherines.

Numerous journalists have lied about Israel in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. Here is an article about the Mohammad Al Durrah hoax.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2012/02/16/another-blow-against-propagandists-still-clinging-to-the-al-durrah-hoax/

I believe a documentary is being considered by the man who painstakingly examined the available press footage for the Bakr children's deaths, though this thread will be no doubt be ancient history by then.

The IDF isn't denying they killed the kids.

The sole remit of the IDF investigation was to establish why or not Israeli troops had acted illegally. As for what they 'admit', let me remind you that at first they admitted responsibility for the death of Mohammad Al Durrah. Pallywood enterprises are designed to not only fool the public and their press proxies , but to also fool the Israelis. So of course the Israelis targeted the area where the boys were apparently killed and at the approximate time they died.

With the Mohammad Al Dura case there was no autopsy and no body to be found. There were to my knowledge no,autopsies carried out on the four Bakr boys. This is not a mere academic point or unwarranted pedantry it is the very corner stone of justice presuming innocence unless guilt is proven.

Really?


This is where you go with this? Israel commits a war crime. They admit to killing the boys and you try and blame someone else?

[Thorgal]

If the father of the dead boys wants justice perhaps he should start at the beginning and read the autopsy report to learn exactly how and when his sons died. Or could it be true that there were no autopsies carried out and the bodies were buried with indecent haste? One would have thought that fragments of Israeli munitions pulled from the bodies would be just the sort of evidence that would confirm the Palestinian version of events.

Some of our esteemed members seem very keen on Israel publishing everything that was recorded, surely they would equally ask the Hamas officials to at least publish the autopsy reports?

I think the father is well aware how they died. Numerous journalists reported them being blown to smitherines.

Numerous journalists have lied about Israel in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. Here is an article about the Mohammad Al Durrah hoax.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2012/02/16/another-blow-against-propagandists-still-clinging-to-the-al-durrah-hoax/

I believe a documentary is being considered by the man who painstakingly examined the available press footage for the Bakr children's deaths, though this thread will be no doubt be ancient history by then.

The IDF isn't denying they killed the kids.

The sole remit of the IDF investigation was to establish why or not Israeli troops had acted illegally. As for what they 'admit', let me remind you that at first they admitted responsibility for the death of Mohammad Al Durrah. Pallywood enterprises are designed to not only fool the public and their press proxies , but to also fool the Israelis. So of course the Israelis targeted the area where the boys were apparently killed and at the approximate time they died.

With the Mohammad Al Dura case there was no autopsy and no body to be found. There were to my knowledge no,autopsies carried out on the four Bakr boys. This is not a mere academic point or unwarranted pedantry it is the very corner stone of justice presuming innocence unless guilt is proven.

You've posted more than once on this thread the Al Dura hoax without any response because it's off topic ! Pure deflection of this thread...

According to the news reporters footage we can clearly see that the children have been brought out of the beach with ambulances to a hospital.

The doctor from the hospital who received the children made an autopsy. A police report should follow with this tragic attack.

Military footage has been requested by Palestinian HRW, but the IDF refused to provide any evidence. The IDF footage remains as military secret because new weapon technology has been used : guided missiles controlled by drone vision with grid precision technology and fired by IDF navy patrol boat. Edited June 16, 2015 by Scott

[Steely Dan]

If the father of the dead boys wants justice perhaps he should start at the beginning and read the autopsy report to learn exactly how and when his sons died. Or could it be true that there were no autopsies carried out and the bodies were buried with indecent haste? One would have thought that fragments of Israeli munitions pulled from the bodies would be just the sort of evidence that would confirm the Palestinian version of events.

Some of our esteemed members seem very keen on Israel publishing everything that was recorded, surely they would equally ask the Hamas officials to at least publish the autopsy reports?

I think the father is well aware how they died. Numerous journalists reported them being blown to smitherines.

Numerous journalists have lied about Israel in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. Here is an article about the Mohammad Al Durrah hoax.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2012/02/16/another-blow-against-propagandists-still-clinging-to-the-al-durrah-hoax/

I believe a documentary is being considered by the man who painstakingly examined the available press footage for the Bakr children's deaths, though this thread will be no doubt be ancient history by then.

The IDF isn't denying they killed the kids.

The sole remit of the IDF investigation was to establish why or not Israeli troops had acted illegally. As for what they 'admit', let me remind you that at first they admitted responsibility for the death of Mohammad Al Durrah. Pallywood enterprises are designed to not only fool the public and their press proxies , but to also fool the Israelis. So of course the Israelis targeted the area where the boys were apparently killed and at the approximate time they died.

With the Mohammad Al Dura case there was no autopsy and no body to be found. There were to my knowledge no,autopsies carried out on the four Bakr boys. This is not a mere academic point or unwarranted pedantry it is the very corner stone of justice presuming innocence unless guilt is proven.

Really?


This is where you go with this? Israel commits a war crime. They admit to killing the boys and you try and blame someone else?

You start off with a false premise, Israel has been convicted of no war crime here, their internal investigation concludes the same, which I agree with.

I can't be sure of anything else. The children, one or all four may have been killed,by Israeli munitions. I state maybe because press conclusions are not always correct, as was the case with a whole family wiped out during operation cast lead which was originally blamed on Israel turned out to be due to a stray Hamas rocket.

When this thread was first introduced I had no reason to suspect the deaths of the boys were due to anything but Israeli fire. I posted the links which made me question this. There are several inconsistencies in press accounts and eye witness statements, so different as to be irreconcilable. Only one journalist claims the children were playing football, there is no film anywhere to support this claim, yet it passed as reality, just as did the yard of the children being the sons of poor fishermen and not a well connected Fatah member. Plus some of the video footage supplied by the Palestinians was so obviously a composite that a layman could spot it. Why supply dodgy images?

The Al Dura incident was only mentioned tangentially to demonstrate there is a precedent to the theory I put forward. This is the last I will say on the matter unless some fresh evidence emerges.

[Jingthing]

It seems the purpose of this overcharging and pre-convictions of "war crimes" by the Israel demonization machine is to castrate Israel's capability of the defense that it continues to need. Nice try. No cigar.

War is not a garden party. Especially when dealing with terrorist forces as in Gaza that are more than willing to sacrifice their own children for both tunnel building and propaganda purposes.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Jingthing

[jdinasia]

If the father of the dead boys wants justice perhaps he should start at the beginning and read the autopsy report to learn exactly how and when his sons died. Or could it be true that there were no autopsies carried out and the bodies were buried with indecent haste? One would have thought that fragments of Israeli munitions pulled from the bodies would be just the sort of evidence that would confirm the Palestinian version of events.

Some of our esteemed members seem very keen on Israel publishing everything that was recorded, surely they would equally ask the Hamas officials to at least publish the autopsy reports?

I think the father is well aware how they died. Numerous journalists reported them being blown to smitherines.

Numerous journalists have lied about Israel in the past and will no doubt continue to do so. Here is an article about the Mohammad Al Durrah hoax.

http://ukmediawatch.org/2012/02/16/another-blow-against-propagandists-still-clinging-to-the-al-durrah-hoax/

I believe a documentary is being considered by the man who painstakingly examined the available press footage for the Bakr children's deaths, though this thread will be no doubt be ancient history by then.

The IDF isn't denying they killed the kids.

The sole remit of the IDF investigation was to establish why or not Israeli troops had acted illegally. As for what they 'admit', let me remind you that at first they admitted responsibility for the death of Mohammad Al Durrah. Pallywood enterprises are designed to not only fool the public and their press proxies , but to also fool the Israelis. So of course the Israelis targeted the area where the boys were apparently killed and at the approximate time they died.

With the Mohammad Al Dura case there was no autopsy and no body to be found. There were to my knowledge no,autopsies carried out on the four Bakr boys. This is not a mere academic point or unwarranted pedantry it is the very corner stone of justice presuming innocence unless guilt is proven.

Really?


This is where you go with this? Israel commits a war crime. They admit to killing the boys and you try and blame someone else?

You start off with a false premise, Israel has been convicted of no war crime here, their internal investigation concludes the same, which I agree with.

I can't be sure of anything else. The children, one or all four may have been killed,by Israeli munitions. I state maybe because press conclusions are not always correct, as was the case with a whole family wiped out during operation cast lead which was originally blamed on Israel turned out to be due to a stray Hamas rocket.

When this thread was first introduced I had no reason to suspect the deaths of the boys were due to anything but Israeli fire. I posted the links which made me question this. There are several inconsistencies in press accounts and eye witness statements, so different as to be irreconcilable.

The Al Dura incident was only mentioned tangentially to demonstrate there is a precedent to the theory I put forward. This is the last I will say on the matter unless some fresh evidence emerges.

Again?

How do you change "committed" to "convicted"?

Again the IDF, see the OP, admits to murdering the children. They call it a tragic mistake.

The principle of distinction requires you to know what you are attacking. To ignore this principle and kill children is the very definition of a war crime.

[Seastallion]

.........

You start off with a false premise, Israel has been convicted of no war crime here, their internal investigation concludes the same, which I agree with.

I can't be sure of anything else. The children, one or all four may have been killed,by Israeli munitions. I state maybe because press conclusions are not always correct, as was the case with a whole family wiped out during operation cast lead which was originally blamed on Israel turned out to be due to a stray Hamas rocket.

When this thread was first introduced I had no reason to suspect the deaths of the boys were due to anything but Israeli fire. I posted the links which made me question this. There are several inconsistencies in press accounts and eye witness statements, so different as to be irreconcilable. Only one journalist claims the children were playing football, there is no film anywhere to support this claim, yet it passed as reality, just as did the yard of the children being the sons of poor fishermen and not a well connected Fatah member. Plus some of the video footage supplied by the Palestinians was so obviously a composite that a layman could spot it. Why supply dodgy images?

The Al Dura incident was only mentioned tangentially to demonstrate there is a precedent to the theory I put forward. This is the last I will say on the matter unless some fresh evidence emerges.

(previous stuff omitted for clarity)

You start off by saying that you agree with Israel's self-assessment of no war crime and that you can't be sure of anything else. Yet, you can't be sure if the children were even killed by Israeli munitions....despite Israel's admission that they did kill them!

So you agree with Israel's report only so far as that they committed no war crime, but you don't necessarily agree with their self-confessed killing of the kids.

Sort of contradictory.

As a matter of interest, how much of the evidence that the report writer used to reach the conclusion that he did, have you viewed to have reached your consensus of no war crime? Or was his word good enough for you?

And what parts of all that evidence make you still unsure and doubtful of the IDF's own conclusion that they did indeed kill the boys? Or was the report writer's word not good enough this time?

[Ulysses G.]

Again the IDF, see the OP, admits to murdering the children.

You are making things up again. Israel says that the children were killed by mistake during a mission on an identified Hamas structure. They did not "murder" them and there is no war crime, only a tragic accident.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Seastallion]

Again the IDF, see the OP, admits to murdering the children.

You are making things up again. Israel says that the children were killed by mistake during a mission on an identified Hamas structure. They did not "murder" them and there is no war crime, only a tragic accident.

You are relying solely on the word of a report that even JT says is understandably questionable.

[Ulysses G.]

He claims that Israel "admits murdering the children" - killing them on purpose - , but that is not true. Israel says that the children were killed by mistake during a mission on an identified Hamas structure. Israel did not admit to murder or a war crime, only a tragic accident.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Seastallion]

He claims that Israel "admits murdering the children" - killing them on purpose - , but that is not true. Israel says that the children were killed by mistake during a mission on an identified Hamas structure. Israel did not admit to murder or a war crime, only a tragic accident.

Again.....You are relying solely on the word of a report that even JT says is understandably questionable. You are taking the report as fact.

That's your right, but it doesn't make your stance correct, or the other one incorrect....until we've seen the evidence.

The report is not evidence, but a self-assessed claim, and likely to have been compiled for propaganda purposes.

Nobody here has seen the evidence. The closest we have is the journalist's version of things.

[Ulysses G.]

You are relying solely on the word of a report that even JT says is understandably questionable.

You keep getting caught making up things that are not true, so I'm not taking your word for anything without proof. Please provide a link to Jingthing's actual words.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

You are relying solely on the word of a report that even JT says is understandably questionable.

You keep getting caught making up things that are not true, so I'm not taking your word for anything without proof. Please provide a link to Jingthing's actual words.

Keep me out of this please. That dude knows I have him on ignore. The topic is the topic.

[geriatrickid]

The only way to put Israel in front of its responsibilities is to boycott its products.

It works, and it starts to bother and worry the government.

The children were playing football and were bombed two times, the first one killed 2 kids and while the other tried to run away a second raid killed them...

Those here who support israel should consider move there: racist country, apartheid, illegal settlements, they become what they fought in the past : a bunch of elitist people who think "god" gave them this country.

And yes if we put more pressure on Israel it is because it's a democracy(well not sure now) and the people can change the government actions by voting or strikes...

As long as this government wants the biblical Israel then nothing will be solved.

Just as a reminder :

- bibi said before the elections he will NEVER agree for a 2 states solution, however now he changed his mind.

- Lieberman wanted to put "all the arabs living in israel in trains and send them to specific villages where they will not be mixed with jews"

- Settlements are illegal in the eye of the international community and without the USA veto, this country would face huge economocal and political bans.

- The organization which compulse all the israeli soldiers testimonies is threatened both by legal and illegal actions.

This country is at the same level as South Africa and only BOYCOTT will hurt them where it is needed : money

LOL . You hate Israel. I get it.

Please start boycotting everything that has any Israeli content right now. That means you will no longer use your cell phone, avoid most pharmaceuticals, even the ones manufactured in India or China because they will be using an Israeli sourced API at some part in the manufacturing stage, do not fly on any Boeing products because you won't know if some of the equipment has an Israeli made component. Be sure to avoid medical equipment. There will be some component sourced from Israel or paying an intellectual property licensing fee to an Israeli company. Also, please tell the arabs of Gaza and the west bank that as part of the boycott they are no longer to use Israeli healthcare facilities and can no longer sell their product to Israel, nor source their products from the 1 million Israelis who are "arabs".

Didn't think this through did you? Naw I didn't think so.

[sirineou]

The only way to put Israel in front of its responsibilities is to boycott its products.

It works, and it starts to bother and worry the government.

The children were playing football and were bombed two times, the first one killed 2 kids and while the other tried to run away a second raid killed them...

Those here who support israel should consider move there: racist country, apartheid, illegal settlements, they become what they fought in the past : a bunch of elitist people who think "god" gave them this country.

And yes if we put more pressure on Israel it is because it's a democracy(well not sure now) and the people can change the government actions by voting or strikes...

As long as this government wants the biblical Israel then nothing will be solved.

Just as a reminder :

- bibi said before the elections he will NEVER agree for a 2 states solution, however now he changed his mind.

- Lieberman wanted to put "all the arabs living in israel in trains and send them to specific villages where they will not be mixed with jews"

- Settlements are illegal in the eye of the international community and without the USA veto, this country would face huge economocal and political bans.

- The organization which compulse all the israeli soldiers testimonies is threatened both by legal and illegal actions.

This country is at the same level as South Africa and only BOYCOTT will hurt them where it is needed : money

LOL . You hate Israel. I get it.

Please start boycotting everything that has any Israeli content right now. That means you will no longer use your cell phone, avoid most pharmaceuticals, even the ones manufactured in India or China because they will be using an Israeli sourced API at some part in the manufacturing stage, do not fly on any Boeing products because you won't know if some of the equipment has an Israeli made component. Be sure to avoid medical equipment. There will be some component sourced from Israel or paying an intellectual property licensing fee to an Israeli company. Also, please tell the arabs of Gaza and the west bank that as part of the boycott they are no longer to use Israeli healthcare facilities and can no longer sell their product to Israel, nor source their products from the 1 million Israelis who are "arabs".

Didn't think this through did you? Naw I didn't think so.

I notice you use a capital I for "Israel" but not a capital A for " arab", a little Freudian slip there??? I think so.

[Pakboong]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_wIFlTS7K3UTMVkXuylrSypaPwNx7pcupWeVYFVzow=w311-h207-p-no

My apologies for the double post. This photo is proof of nothing. It could have been staged. But, with that having been said, it is more likely than not that it is real.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Pakboong

[Thorgal]

He claims that Israel "admits murdering the children" - killing them on purpose - , but that is not true. Israel says that the children were killed by mistake during a mission on an identified Hamas structure. Israel did not admit to murder or a war crime, only a tragic accident.

IDF forces had a clear view at close range that they were children. IDF navy and drone technology can never result in 'a tragic accident'...

The operation could have been canceled from the beginning knowing that they are children.

Comments from IDF spokesman Col Lerner :

"A top Israeli spokesman conceded the Israeli military should have been able to tell that four Palestinian boys killed on a Gaza beach while playing soccer were not terrorists."

“We had visual surveillance, clearly, to an extent that we should have been able to determine who was on the beach,” he added...

Edited June 17, 2015 by Thorgal

[Linky]

He claims that Israel "admits murdering the children" - killing them on purpose - , but that is not true. Israel says that the children were killed by mistake during a mission on an identified Hamas structure. Israel did not admit to murder or a war crime, only a tragic accident.

IDF forces had a clear view at close range that they were children. IDF navy and drone technology can never result in 'a tragic accident'...

The operation could have been canceled from the beginning knowing that they are children.

Comments from IDF spokesman Col Lerner :

"A top Israeli spokesman conceded the Israeli military should have been able to tell that four Palestinian boys killed on a Gaza beach while playing soccer were not terrorists."

We had visual surveillance, clearly, to an extent that we should have been able to determine who was on the beach, he added...

Falling on deaf ears. The apologists will just come back with.....he is wrong ?

[mmh8]

 

"that it took place in an area "which was utilized exclusively by militants.""

Well, there's one lie! Obviously, if there were children there, it's not exclusively utilised by militants.

 

it could be literally true, as one of the high population density places all of Gaza strip could be considered exclusivly used by militants, that is they are excluded from going outside of Gaza strip,

[Steely Dan]

.........

You start off with a false premise, Israel has been convicted of no war crime here, their internal investigation concludes the same, which I agree with.

I can't be sure of anything else. The children, one or all four may have been killed,by Israeli munitions. I state maybe because press conclusions are not always correct, as was the case with a whole family wiped out during operation cast lead which was originally blamed on Israel turned out to be due to a stray Hamas rocket.

When this thread was first introduced I had no reason to suspect the deaths of the boys were due to anything but Israeli fire. I posted the links which made me question this. There are several inconsistencies in press accounts and eye witness statements, so different as to be irreconcilable. Only one journalist claims the children were playing football, there is no film anywhere to support this claim, yet it passed as reality, just as did the yard of the children being the sons of poor fishermen and not a well connected Fatah member. Plus some of the video footage supplied by the Palestinians was so obviously a composite that a layman could spot it. Why supply dodgy images?

The Al Dura incident was only mentioned tangentially to demonstrate there is a precedent to the theory I put forward. This is the last I will say on the matter unless some fresh evidence emerges.

(previous stuff omitted for clarity)

You start off by saying that you agree with Israel's self-assessment of no war crime and that you can't be sure of anything else. Yet, you can't be sure if the children were even killed by Israeli munitions....despite Israel's admission that they did kill them!

So you agree with Israel's report only so far as that they committed no war crime, but you don't necessarily agree with their self-confessed killing of the kids.

Sort of contradictory.

As a matter of interest, how much of the evidence that the report writer used to reach the conclusion that he did, have you viewed to have reached your consensus of no war crime? Or was his word good enough for you?

And what parts of all that evidence make you still unsure and doubtful of the IDF's own conclusion that they did indeed kill the boys? Or was the report writer's word not good enough this time?

I wasn't going to reply, but just for you here's another question to consider. Do journalists run towards explosions, unless they are told it's safe to do so? Journalists in Gaza go nowhere without Hamas minders watching and authorizing their presence.

http://www.thomaswictor.com/journalist-confirms-gaza-beach-deception-operation/

[Linky]

Journalists lying now. Got it. ?

[Steely Dan]

Journalists lying now. Got it. [emoji32]

Yes, not just Fox News, I think you are finally starting to get it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k2MdayBMhb4

[Ulysses G.]

IDF forces had a clear view at close range that they were children.

According to YOU - with absolutely no evidence to back it up.

This is the part of Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner's statement that you left out:

"The IDF had a target, a Hamas terrorist target," Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner told the ABC's 7.30 program.

"We had intelligence pointing specifically to that location and we had the indication that the perpetrators were on the beach. We had a specific target indicating that they were supposed to be there."

[Thorgal]

.........

You start off with a false premise, Israel has been convicted of no war crime here, their internal investigation concludes the same, which I agree with.

I can't be sure of anything else. The children, one or all four may have been killed,by Israeli munitions. I state maybe because press conclusions are not always correct, as was the case with a whole family wiped out during operation cast lead which was originally blamed on Israel turned out to be due to a stray Hamas rocket.

When this thread was first introduced I had no reason to suspect the deaths of the boys were due to anything but Israeli fire. I posted the links which made me question this. There are several inconsistencies in press accounts and eye witness statements, so different as to be irreconcilable. Only one journalist claims the children were playing football, there is no film anywhere to support this claim, yet it passed as reality, just as did the yard of the children being the sons of poor fishermen and not a well connected Fatah member. Plus some of the video footage supplied by the Palestinians was so obviously a composite that a layman could spot it. Why supply dodgy images?

The Al Dura incident was only mentioned tangentially to demonstrate there is a precedent to the theory I put forward. This is the last I will say on the matter unless some fresh evidence emerges.

(previous stuff omitted for clarity)

You start off by saying that you agree with Israel's self-assessment of no war crime and that you can't be sure of anything else. Yet, you can't be sure if the children were even killed by Israeli munitions....despite Israel's admission that they did kill them!

So you agree with Israel's report only so far as that they committed no war crime, but you don't necessarily agree with their self-confessed killing of the kids.

Sort of contradictory.

As a matter of interest, how much of the evidence that the report writer used to reach the conclusion that he did, have you viewed to have reached your consensus of no war crime? Or was his word good enough for you?

And what parts of all that evidence make you still unsure and doubtful of the IDF's own conclusion that they did indeed kill the boys? Or was the report writer's word not good enough this time?

I wasn't going to reply, but just for you here's another question to consider. Do journalists run towards explosions, unless they are told it's safe to do so? Journalists in Gaza go nowhere without Hamas minders watching and authorizing their presence.

http://www.thomaswictor.com/journalist-confirms-gaza-beach-deception-operation/

This Israeli gunboat who fired the shells left the scene immediately after firing the third and fatal shell. That's why the reporters and medics went to the impact zones.

The gunboat was at close range of 1 km from the beach. He could oversee the whole operation from the beginning. These IDF gunboats are equipped with 76/62 mm Oto Melara naval deck guns. Littoral warfare type of shells with speed of 1500m/s can be guided through UAV, satellite or onboard by the guns ammunition programmer who gives the GPS coordinates in half a second to the munition before firing. Optimal visual range : between 5 and 10 kms and below.

Firing range of these projectiles are maximum 40.000 mtrs. Again, the gunboat was at close range of 1 km from the beach and was able to make clear distinction between children and Hamas militants.

The IDF naval commander (and his crew) is equipped with a sophisticated Elbit Systems Intelligence and Electro-optics payloads. The payloads offer outstanding range performance which enables identification and interception of 'threats' at long stand-off ranges. Optimal range : between 5 and 10 kms and below. Again, the gunboat was at close range of 1 km from the beach and was able to make clear distinction between children and Hamas militants.

Snapshot was taken from this footage :

Following important remarks need to made :

1. the first shell was far away from the so called Hamas military compound

2. after the second shell, the gunboat had to move from his initial position, because the kids were running out of his angle. The impact on the container is clearly from the first position of the gunboat.

3. you can see clearly 2 ships at an estimated range of 3 to 5 kms who were part of the operation

4. warship disappeared after the last shelling

Why is IDF still claiming that they were not able to see that they were just kids ?

Edited June 17, 2015 by Thorgal

[Linky]

They may not intentionally murder children but they are quite happy to bomb people not knowing who they are. If it hits children they just blame someone else.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Linky

[Steely Dan]

.........

You start off with a false premise, Israel has been convicted of no war crime here, their internal investigation concludes the same, which I agree with.

I can't be sure of anything else. The children, one or all four may have been killed,by Israeli munitions. I state maybe because press conclusions are not always correct, as was the case with a whole family wiped out during operation cast lead which was originally blamed on Israel turned out to be due to a stray Hamas rocket.

When this thread was first introduced I had no reason to suspect the deaths of the boys were due to anything but Israeli fire. I posted the links which made me question this. There are several inconsistencies in press accounts and eye witness statements, so different as to be irreconcilable. Only one journalist claims the children were playing football, there is no film anywhere to support this claim, yet it passed as reality, just as did the yard of the children being the sons of poor fishermen and not a well connected Fatah member. Plus some of the video footage supplied by the Palestinians was so obviously a composite that a layman could spot it. Why supply dodgy images?

The Al Dura incident was only mentioned tangentially to demonstrate there is a precedent to the theory I put forward. This is the last I will say on the matter unless some fresh evidence emerges.

(previous stuff omitted for clarity)

You start off by saying that you agree with Israel's self-assessment of no war crime and that you can't be sure of anything else. Yet, you can't be sure if the children were even killed by Israeli munitions....despite Israel's admission that they did kill them!

So you agree with Israel's report only so far as that they committed no war crime, but you don't necessarily agree with their self-confessed killing of the kids.

Sort of contradictory.

As a matter of interest, how much of the evidence that the report writer used to reach the conclusion that he did, have you viewed to have reached your consensus of no war crime? Or was his word good enough for you?

And what parts of all that evidence make you still unsure and doubtful of the IDF's own conclusion that they did indeed kill the boys? Or was the report writer's word not good enough this time?

I wasn't going to reply, but just for you here's another question to consider. Do journalists run towards explosions, unless they are told it's safe to do so? Journalists in Gaza go nowhere without Hamas minders watching and authorizing their presence.

http://www.thomaswictor.com/journalist-confirms-gaza-beach-deception-operation/

This Israeli gunboat who fired the shells left the scene immediately after firing the third and fatal shell. That's why the reporters and medics went to the impact zones.

The gunboat was at close range of 1 km from the beach. He could oversee the whole operation from the beginning. These IDF gunboats are equipped with 76/62 mm Oto Melara naval deck guns. Littoral warfare type of shells with speed of 1500m/s can be guided through UAV, satellite or onboard by the guns ammunition programmer who gives the GPS coordinates in half a second to the munition before firing. Optimal visual range : between 5 and 10 kms and below.

Firing range of these projectiles are maximum 40.000 mtrs. Again, the gunboat was at close range of 1 km from the beach and was able to make clear distinction between children and Hamas militants.

The IDF naval commander (and his crew) is equipped with a sophisticated Elbit Systems Intelligence and Electro-optics payloads. The payloads offer outstanding range performance which enables identification and interception of 'threats' at long stand-off ranges. Optimal range : between 5 and 10 kms and below. Again, the gunboat was at close range of 1 km from the beach and was able to make clear distinction between children and Hamas militants.

Snapshot was taken from this footage :

Following important remarks need to made :

1. the first shell was far away from the so called Hamas military compound

2. after the second shell, the gunboat had to move from his initial position, because the kids were running out of his angle. The impact on the container is clearly from the first position of the gunboat.

3. you can see clearly 2 ships at an estimated range of 3 to 5 kms who were part of the operation

4. warship disappeared after the last shelling

Why is IDF still claiming that they were not able to see that they were just kids ?

Here is a take down of the entire TF1 report. The smoke at the beginning looks like a trash fire and was irrelevant. The boys seen running don't look panicked, perhaps it was filmed previously. The camera locations could never have been filmed in realtime due to the distances the camera crew had to run. If film came from more than one camera where did TF1 get the film from, surely not Pallywood by any chance?

The Israeli boats are scarcely even visible so it is difficult to surmise what part they played, the TF1 video does not show the ship firing, just where the explosion occurred. The Israelis deny their ships fired, if they had the 76mm shell their guns were armed with (as per your cut and paste) would have made a far larger explosion than that shown on the film. Where did the first shell on the report land by the way, surely not the sea as the Israelis could steer it whilst in flight as you observed.

http://www.thomaswictor.com/fraudulence-of-tf1-news-report/

P.s You have sucked me into discussing the details which I wasn't going to unless Scott rules this is not off topic. Suffice to say a film is being made about the entire incident which I will be sure to download as soon as I have access to it.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Steely Dan