Mass shooting at Charleston church in South Carolina leaves 9 dead

[F430murci]

We may never know quite what drives some people to kill. But it seems that in young Dylann Storm Roof, we have further evidence of a trend that should worry us all. Im talking about his dependence on prescription drugs:

Racists take drugs too. That is why they call oxycodone, "hillbilly heroin".

If he was taking suboxone, he was probably an opiate addict of some type - probably heroin or Oxycodone. Stopping addiction is what this drug is really for, although - like methadone - it can give one a really lousy high, if someone is desperate enough.

Not so fast. The last thing someone actually physically de[pendent on opiates would an to do is a pop a suboxone. That will knock the real opiates on mu receptors and immediate throw someone into violent withdrawals. The taking suboxone will actually block the fun, warm fuzzy effects of real opiates as suboxone has a very long half life and very strong affinity for binding to mu receptors.

If suboxone was prescribed to him, then I would agree that he definitely had a dependence, or told a doctor he had a physical dependence, to a real opioid. If he copped a couple of the street without a prescription, he was just a garbage head looking for a cheap high. He, however, could have been in full blown withdrawals and unable to score potentially, but again . . . suboxone is the last thing an opioid addict would turn to.

Methadone, another trash synthetic drug.

The fact of the matter is that real opioids are very clean drugs, do no harm to the body and do not cause someone to go psychotic. Meth, uppers and other prescription drugs like SSRIs can, but not opioids.

[Chicog]

It's not the only channel I watch Chuck.

But it is, by a significant margin, the absolute worst.

Plus I must bring down the average viewing age significantly.

As well as the average IQ?

Sorry, I don't believe that is possible.

Well, you know what they say..."Opinions are like axxhxxxs. Everybody has one."

And most of them stink.

[JDGRUEN]

Drugs? Spare us.

Sounds like pure right wing SPIN to avoid the issue of white racism against blacks.

I'm not buying it.

The justice department is now considering terrorism charges. Good!

I can't believe you will deny outright facts. All these shooters have been under the influence of mind altering prescription drugs - all have mental health issues- it is documented ... GO READ SOME FACTS.

If you read what I wrote on this thread before ... I said as much - yes Racism is involved -- but the side effects of the mind altering drugs bolsters up this cowardly in his non functional brain to take action of killing people ... These shooters are delusional -- GO READ ABOUT THEM .. .they are all much the same ... young, known mental health issues - documented. All were on different mixes of extremely strong drugs with serious side effects ....

You can use facts and reason... you do not have to echo the While House ... Salon.com narrative ... Putting this shooter in perspective does not make him innocent of his dastardly crimes... He - at his young age has obviously developed a racist attitude... he said it - it is a recorded statement. But what makes people dive deep into delusions to act on his racism and kill nine people ... It is called DRUGS.

The medical literature is full of the account of serious side effects of producing violent actions - homicides and suicides...

This shooter pushed himself over the top of mere racism to believing in some crazy grandeur of trying to start a race war. This nutcase deluded himself into believing he could do it ...

On a very similar to less complicated basis - people who drink alcohol to excess lower their inhibitions - and become angry bellicose drunks, or melancholy crybabies, or happy life of the party until they fall down.

This shooter did this sort of thing to the ultimate ... the side effects of the drugs drove his already psychotic brain to even more malfunction ... A crazy man on prescription drugs that are on record for making some people even more crazy and violent...

These are FACTS - you cannot stuff this guy in to some Liberal - Leftist talking point - that racism and racism alone drove him to be a killer. It did not happen .....

The previous shooters have similar stories delusional unstable, isolated do nothings, never achieved anything in their short lives, non socially functional... why - their brain is not wired right -- they are insane in one form or another ... then steps in prescription drugs that work for many but for some produce horrible side effects... it is well documented ... But the truth does not sit well with the Leftist narrative ... WHO WANTS so badly for the truth to be different.

[F430murci]

Drugs? Spare us.

Sounds like pure right wing SPIN to avoid the issue of white racism against blacks.

I'm not buying it.

The justice department is now considering terrorism charges. Good!

I can't believe you will deny outright facts. All these shooters have been under the influence of mind altering prescription drugs - all have mental health issues- it is documented ... GO READ SOME FACTS.

If you read what I wrote on this thread before ... I said as much - yes Racism is involved -- but the side effects of the mind altering drugs bolsters up this cowardly in his non functional brain to take action of killing people ... These shooters are delusional -- GO READ ABOUT THEM .. .they are all much the same ... young, known mental health issues - documented. All were on different mixes of extremely strong drugs with serious side effects ....

You can use facts and reason... you do not have to echo the While House ... Salon.com narrative ... Putting this shooter in perspective does not make him innocent of his dastardly crimes... He - at his young age has obviously developed a racist attitude... he said it - it is a recorded statement. But what makes people dive deep into delusions to act on his racism and kill nine people ... It is called DRUGS.

The medical literature is full of the account of serious side effects of producing violent actions - homicides and suicides...

This shooter pushed himself over the top of mere racism to believing in some crazy grandeur of trying to start a race war. This nutcase deluded himself into believing he could do it ...

On a very similar to less complicated basis - people who drink alcohol to excess lower their inhibitions - and become angry bellicose drunks, or melancholy crybabies, or happy life of the party until they fall down.

This shooter did this sort of thing to the ultimate ... the side effects of the drugs drove his already psychotic brain to even more malfunction ... A crazy man on prescription drugs that are on record for making some people even more crazy and violent...

These are FACTS - you cannot stuff this guy in to some Liberal - Leftist talking point - that racism and racism alone drove him to be a killer. It did not happen .....

The previous shooters have similar stories delusional unstable, isolated do nothings, never achieved anything in their short lives, non socially functional... why - their brain is not wired right -- they are insane in one form or another ... then steps in prescription drugs that work for many but for some produce horrible side effects... it is well documented ... But the truth does not sit well with the Leftist narrative ... WHO WANTS so badly for the truth to be different.

Lol, your grasp on the effects of different types of drugs on individuals is about as good as your grasp of the ramped Ebola epidemic you hysterically predicated for the US.

So far there is no evidence that he was on anything at the time of the shooting. You clearly have no gaps on the impact of drugs on people, but blindly listen to nut bags ( as you did with ebola) regarding what happened in this situation. a few suboxone copped off the street months ago would not cause this.

Now if it comes out he was on SSRIs, I would be inclined to agree that SSRIs may have exacerbated his psychosis, but only if there were certain pituitary issues present causing the presentations for which SSRIs were used. So far that has not come out.

Dude was a bad apple. He was a loser POS. One does not need to be on drugs to be a bad apple or a loser POS. Next.

[Ulysses G.]

We may never know quite what drives some people to kill. But it seems that in young Dylann Storm Roof, we have further evidence of a trend that should worry us all. Im talking about his dependence on prescription drugs:

Racists take drugs too. That is why they call oxycodone, "hillbilly heroin".

If he was taking suboxone, he was probably an opiate addict of some type - probably heroin or Oxycodone. Stopping addiction is what this drug is really for, although - like methadone - it can give one a really lousy high, if someone is desperate enough.

Not so fast. The last thing someone actually physically de[pendent on opiates would an to do is a pop a suboxone.

Read my post again. They would if they could not score anything else and did not want to go through withdrawals. I did say that this drug is for helping addicts to come off the good stuff. By the way, I'm not sure about suboxone, but you can take a very good dose of methadone without blocking the euphoric effects of heroin. You have to take a LOT to block the effects completely.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Chicog]

This drug stuff is all diversionary nonsense anyway.

The madman's manifesto is here, this wasn't a drug-motivated spree murder.

The kid was probably jerking off to Kelly and Hannity every morning.

http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt

[Aussie123]

Hate???

Another word worthy of consideration... racism.

Sorry, BB, this is NOT racism.

The local Authorities in unison agree on "Hate crime".

There are many racists on either side of the color divide, but such heinous crimes are rare.

Nobody, but nobody, goes and starts shooting people in church because of racism.

Intense, burning Hate is the motive. The big question is "Why"? I suggest we wait and see.

what was his motive for killing Nine People? isn't it about race ? who cares what other people agree on ?

[roamer]

Unique racist, not even 2 of his best (black) friends were aware of it.

[Jingthing]

Yeah, no racism to see here.

This manifesto of the terrorist Roof has not yet been fully verified as his writing, but it seems pretty likely:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/20/dylann-roof-manifesto-charleston-shooting_n_7627788.html

I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Jingthing

[Patsycat]

Why oh why did the victims families say that they forgive the Justin Bieber lookalike?

Sorry, i haven't read the whole thread. But if it was my family member that had been killed i would not forgive that barsteward.

[NeverSure]

Why oh why did the victims families say that they forgive the Justin Bieber lookalike?

Sorry, i haven't read the whole thread. But if it was my family member that had been killed i would not forgive that barsteward.

There is a school of thought that is included not only in some religions, but in some secular teachings that a sincere effort at forgiving is better for the injured person than stewing and obsessing with hate. It's a matter of trying to let go of it. I would say they did it for themselves, perhaps for their religious beliefs, and not for the perp.

[sirineou]

Why oh why did the victims families say that they forgive the Justin Bieber lookalike?

Sorry, i haven't read the whole thread. But if it was my family member that had been killed i would not forgive that barsteward.

There is a school of thought that is included not only in some religions, but in some secular teachings that a sincere effort at forgiving is better for the injured person than stewing and obsessing with hate. It's a matter of trying to let go of it. I would say they did it for themselves, perhaps for their religious beliefs, and not for the perp.

Well, they say that the forgive, because it is expected from them to sat that. but whether they do or not, it's a totally different story. Maybe they are better people than me, but I know, if some moron did this to my daughter, I would not be so ready to forgive. and that's what this person is, a moron, " you rape our women" really ? you little prick, they are your women??? What an A'hole!!! Who gave them to you, How did they become yours, what did you ever do to deserve them? What an A'hole

No forgiveness from me.

I am an Atheist, and I have often argued against the death penalty in this forum, but in this case, if thy are looking for volunteers to pull the switch on this prick, I want to know where I sign up. He wanted to start a race war? what an Idiot. if anything this incident brought the races closer together, No forgiveness from me, fry the little mutant. Let him be this years Darwin award winner, and let's remove him from the Human genetic pool.

[NeverSure]

There is a school of thought that is included not only in some religions, but in some secular teachings that a sincere effort at forgiving is better for the injured person than stewing and obsessing with hate. It's a matter of trying to let go of it. I would say they did it for themselves, perhaps for their religious beliefs, and not for the perp.

Well, they say that the forgive, because it is expected from them to sat that. but whether they do or not, it's a totally different story.

Maybe they are better people than me, but I know, if some moron did this to my daughter, I would not be so ready to forgive.

and that's what this person is, a moron, " you rape our women" really ? you little prick, they are your women??? What an A'hole!!!

Who gave them to you, How did they become yours, what did you ever do to deserve them? What an A'hole

No forgiveness from me.

I am an Atheist, and I have often argued against the death penalty in this forum, but in this case, if thy are looking for volunteers to pull the switch on this prick, I want to know where I sign up.

He wanted to start a race war? what an Idiot. if anything this insident brought the races closer together,

No forgiveness from me, fry the little mutant.

I don't really disagree with you but for me when I read your post I see a lot of anger. Duh, LOL.

Suppose something happened to your daughter. What could you do about it without spending time in prison? Would it solve anything to spend time in prison? What good would it do you, for yourself, to spend perhaps years obsessing about it, unable to relax with life?

However, if you want to watch the best movie ever about a guy taking the law into his own hands and blowing a killer away, watch "A Time To Kill" (or read the book.) It is a period movie about the South and discrimination, the rape and death of a young black girl by some white guys, and the father is black.

An all-white jury lets him skate while knowing he did it. He actually shot the perp inside the courthouse at the trial, in front of God and everyone. It's enough to get you cheering for this ordinary but good poor black man. It's based on a true story. The novel came out in 1989.

Shh don't tell anyone I mentioned it, LOL.

Edited June 21, 2015 by NeverSure

[JDGRUEN]

'Completely Shameful': Jindal Blasts Obama's Gun Violence Comments

Reference the Charleston, SC Church Shooting ...

..."I think it was completely shameful," Jindal said. "Within 24 hours we've got the president trying to score cheap political points."... "For whatever reason he always tries to divide us," Jindal said of Obama. "Today was not the moment. This was not the time."

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/18/bobby-jindal-president-obamas-comments-about-gun-violence

[Jingthing]

'Completely Shameful': Jindal Blasts Obama's Gun Violence Comments

Reference the Charleston, SC Church Shooting ...

..."I think it was completely shameful," Jindal said. "Within 24 hours we've got the president trying to score cheap political points."... "For whatever reason he always tries to divide us," Jindal said of Obama. "Today was not the moment. This was not the time."

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/18/bobby-jindal-president-obamas-comments-about-gun-violence

That's moronic.

Obama isn't trying to score political points.

He runs for nothing ever again and gun control isn't politically popular.

It is that right wing Jindal that tried to score political points attacking Obama because Jindal hopes to be president.

Duh!

Gun control opponents are such BS artists.

Too close to a mass shooting.

It's not the right time. Too soon.

Later.

Why are we talking about this now ... it's not on the public's mind.

In their view the time to talk about it is NEVER.

Talk about shameful.

[sirineou]

'Completely Shameful': Jindal Blasts Obama's Gun Violence Comments

Reference the Charleston, SC Church Shooting ...

..."I think it was completely shameful," Jindal said. "Within 24 hours we've got the president trying to score cheap political points."... "For whatever reason he always tries to divide us," Jindal said of Obama. "Today was not the moment. This was not the time."

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/18/bobby-jindal-president-obamas-comments-about-gun-violence

He say's that as he uses this tragedy to score cheap political points against Obama

Way to go Jindal,

[JDGRUEN]

Sen. Scott: Obama Is 'Off Base' With Gun Violence Comments

Reference the Charleston, SC Church Shootings:

..."I think the president is off base on this one to be honest with you," Scott told Martha MacCallum. "The fact of the matter is that, what type of gun law would have made this situation not occur?"..."Scott noted the shooter had already broken current gun laws by going into a church with a weapon as a felon"...

http://insider.foxnews.com/2015/06/19/senator-tim-scott-barack-obama-base-gun-violence-comments

[sirineou]

There is a school of thought that is included not only in some religions, but in some secular teachings that a sincere effort at forgiving is better for the injured person than stewing and obsessing with hate. It's a matter of trying to let go of it. I would say they did it for themselves, perhaps for their religious beliefs, and not for the perp.

Well, they say that the forgive, because it is expected from them to sat that. but whether they do or not, it's a totally different story.

Maybe they are better people than me, but I know, if some moron did this to my daughter, I would not be so ready to forgive.

and that's what this person is, a moron, " you rape our women" really ? you little prick, they are your women??? What an A'hole!!!

Who gave them to you, How did they become yours, what did you ever do to deserve them? What an A'hole

No forgiveness from me.

I am an Atheist, and I have often argued against the death penalty in this forum, but in this case, if thy are looking for volunteers to pull the switch on this prick, I want to know where I sign up.

He wanted to start a race war? what an Idiot. if anything this insident brought the races closer together,

No forgiveness from me, fry the little mutant.

I don't really disagree with you but for me when I read your post I see a lot of anger. Duh, LOL.

Suppose something happened to your daughter. What could you do about it without spending time in prison? Would it solve anything to spend time in prison? What good would it do you, for yourself, to spend perhaps years obsessing about it, unable to relax with life?

However, if you want to watch the best movie ever about a guy taking the law into his own hands and blowing a killer away, watch "A Time To Kill" (or read the book.) It is a period movie about the South and discrimination, the rape and death of a young black girl by some white guys, and the father is black.

An all-white jury lets him skate while knowing he did it. He actually shot the perp inside the courthouse at the trial, in front of God and everyone. It's enough to get you cheering for this ordinary but good poor black man. It's based on a true story. The novel came out in 1989.

Shh don't tell anyone I mentioned it, LOL.

32542.jpg

Never Sure's politics are often to the right, and mine are, well , Reasonable. LOL but we often find each other in agreement.

Anger? you bet. I felt the same anger after Sandy Hook, If there ever was a case for capital punishment, this is one. but before this could happen I think the little prick should spend some time in the prisons general population, where he could meet some of the people he accused of raping his women.

PS: Thanks for the movie suggestion, I will look it up.

[Gecko123]

Many countries have drug abuse problems, but only in the US do you see such a high incidence of mass shootings. I therefore am deeply skeptical that drug abuse is the root cause of gun violence in America.

In my opinion, the real root cause of gun violence is deteriorating social cohesion and increasing social isolation which provides the environment for these troubled individuals to fester unnoticed without any intervention. Specifically, I question whether the suburban model doesn't have a dark side because of the ease with which children and adolescents can become socially isolated with little social interaction.

If people can figure out a way to improve opportunities for social contact for everyone (but especially for children and adolescents), drug abuse, and the number of mass shootings would likely drop.

Until those programs are put in place, however, the only immediate step which I think can be taken to reduce mass shootings is to tighten gun control laws. This strategy appears to have been successful in several countries including England and Australia.

[sdanielmcev]

Yeah, no racism to see here.

This manifesto of the terrorist Roof has not yet been fully verified as his writing, but it seems pretty likely:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/20/dylann-roof-manifesto-charleston-shooting_n_7627788.html

I have no choice. I am not in the position to, alone, go into the ghetto and fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state, and at one time had the highest ratio of blacks to Whites in the country. We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the internet. Well someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me.

If it hasn't been verified, then don't post it. It is bad enough that 9 people died, let alone all the rumors as to why. Somehow sick in the head, he is, but also sick are the hate mongers ready to jump on any band-wagon without listening to the tune the Piper is playing.

[Thorgal]

Drugs? Spare us.

Sounds like pure right wing SPIN to avoid the issue of white racism against blacks.

I'm not buying it.

The justice department is now considering terrorism charges. Good!

I can't believe you will deny outright facts. All these shooters have been under the influence of mind altering prescription drugs - all have mental health issues- it is documented ... GO READ SOME FACTS.

If you read what I wrote on this thread before ... I said as much - yes Racism is involved -- but the side effects of the mind altering drugs bolsters up this cowardly in his non functional brain to take action of killing people ... These shooters are delusional -- GO READ ABOUT THEM .. .they are all much the same ... young, known mental health issues - documented. All were on different mixes of extremely strong drugs with serious side effects ....

You can use facts and reason... you do not have to echo the While House ... Salon.com narrative ... Putting this shooter in perspective does not make him innocent of his dastardly crimes... He - at his young age has obviously developed a racist attitude... he said it - it is a recorded statement. But what makes people dive deep into delusions to act on his racism and kill nine people ... It is called DRUGS.

The medical literature is full of the account of serious side effects of producing violent actions - homicides and suicides...

This shooter pushed himself over the top of mere racism to believing in some crazy grandeur of trying to start a race war. This nutcase deluded himself into believing he could do it ...

On a very similar to less complicated basis - people who drink alcohol to excess lower their inhibitions - and become angry bellicose drunks, or melancholy crybabies, or happy life of the party until they fall down.

This shooter did this sort of thing to the ultimate ... the side effects of the drugs drove his already psychotic brain to even more malfunction ... A crazy man on prescription drugs that are on record for making some people even more crazy and violent...

These are FACTS - you cannot stuff this guy in to some Liberal - Leftist talking point - that racism and racism alone drove him to be a killer. It did not happen .....

The previous shooters have similar stories delusional unstable, isolated do nothings, never achieved anything in their short lives, non socially functional... why - their brain is not wired right -- they are insane in one form or another ... then steps in prescription drugs that work for many but for some produce horrible side effects... it is well documented ... But the truth does not sit well with the Leftist narrative ... WHO WANTS so badly for the truth to be different.

The shooter didn't had to take hard drugs to hallucinate racist motives.

South Carolina has 20 active hate groups. And yes they operate mostly with drugs in groups with social and economic difficulties of the society.

http://www.wspa.com/story/25443280/map-active-hate-groups-in-sc-nc

Drug use of the shooter can not hide or compensate his main motivation of hateful white supremacist racial aspirations.

[dexterm]

Some very interesting stats and article at

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/charleston-shooting-for-every-criminal-killed-in-selfdefence-in-the-us-34-innocent-people-die-10333734.html

Charleston shooting: For every criminal killed in self-defence in the US, 34 innocent people die

In 2012, there were 8,855 criminal gun homicides in the FBI's homicide database, but only 258 gun killings by private citizens that were deemed justifiable, which the FBI defines as "the killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen."

That works out to one justifiable gun death for every 34 unjustifiable gun deaths.

Edited June 21, 2015 by dexterm

[sirineou]

Many countries have drug abuse problems, but only in the US do you see such a high incidence of mass shootings. I therefore am deeply skeptical that drug abuse is the root cause of gun violence in America.

In my opinion, the real root cause of gun violence is deteriorating social cohesion and increasing social isolation which provides the environment for these troubled individuals to fester unnoticed without any intervention. Specifically, I question whether the suburban model doesn't have a dark side because of the ease with which children and adolescents can become socially isolated with little social interaction.

If people can figure out a way to improve opportunities for social contact for everyone (but especially for children and adolescents), drug abuse, and the number of mass shootings would likely drop.

Until those programs are put in place, however, the only immediate step which I think can be taken to reduce mass shootings is to tighten gun control laws. This strategy appears to have been successful in several countries including England and Australia.

IMO, racism is a throwback to tribalism, and part of the human condition,

the good news is that we seem to be working through it, and coming out the other side, but vestiges still linger, especially with in the (real or imagined) disenfranchised.

This does not exist only in the US, I remember recently reading about racist conditions in Germany, and I am sure it exists in other European countries. and it exists in every part of the world.

What IMO is different in the US, and why it manifests it's self in such violent , with large numbers of victims , is that the US does not have the ethnic hegemony present in most countries, it has a huge income inequality , resulting in a social balkanization , And lot's of GUNS,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

People in the US are not different from people in Europe, remember we are, for the most part, You

Some of these conditions exist in other countries, but what these people in other countries don't have is a large amount, of cheap, easily accessible guns.

So put together more friction, and more guns, and what you get is more of these incidents.

I dont think you can remove the Human racist element from the equation, this element is working it's way out by it's self, but it takes time

But we can remove Guns from the equation,If guns were more difficult to get, it might not discourage all, but it will certainly discourage most .

I am really surprised at the resistance of the gun enthusiasts to that proposition, more control would be to their advantage, they can still have their guns but they will be vetted and not associated with this lunatic fringe. IMO it will make them part of the solution rather than part of the problem.And all of this for such a small investment in their part, only a little time and perhaps an insignificant cost increase.

I think gun enthusiasts are also victims of the gun lobby

edit typos

Edited June 21, 2015 by sirineou

[arjunadawn]

Gun enthusiasts can believe or support whatever they want, but the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with enthusiasm. Gun control will only advantage government. Gun purchases are already widely vetted, it is criminals who bypass this, such as the US Gov and Fast and Furious. There are numerous people advocating gun control that are themselves on the lunatic fringe, such as George Soros, who's bloody fingerprints are on more deaths across the world than most humans. The greatest evil is not these terrible acts of citizens upon citizens, though horrific. The true evil is the incapacity of humans to finally preserve the last means available to defend their lives from others and government. To be so dumbed down as to think government is or always will be beneficent is gross ignorance.

Guns do not have lobbies, people have lobbies. It is an utter shame and symptom of the degradation of intellect where the Bill of Rights must be defended.

[sirineou]

Gun enthusiasts can believe or support whatever they want, but the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with enthusiasm. Gun control will only advantage government. Gun purchases are already widely vetted, it is criminals who bypass this, such as the US Gov and Fast and Furious. There are numerous people advocating gun control that are themselves on the lunatic fringe, such as George Soros, who's bloody fingerprints are on more deaths across the world than most humans. The greatest evil is not these terrible acts of citizens upon citizens, though horrific. The true evil is the incapacity of humans to finally preserve the last means available to defend their lives from others and government. To be so dumbed down as to think government is or always will be beneficent is gross ignorance.

Guns do not have lobbies, people have lobbies. It is an utter shame and symptom of the degradation of intellect where the Bill of Rights must be defended.

Yea right , Saddam with all his military might could not defend against the US government ,but you will with your hunting rifle if you want to defend against the government,exercise your civil duty, get engaged in the political process and elect good people to office.

and you want your guns to defend your family, really you are so very concerned about your family's safety after your gun show, you go to your OSHA training, and then you go to all the home safety shows, conduct fire drills, have fire extinguishers charged and readily available etc etc etc.

"Guns don't have lobbies, people do" so there are no different advocate lobbies only people lobbies

When will we ever get over our macho attitude, get over our big bad selfs, call things for what they are , and move forward.

How many people must die so you people can have your toys?

Gun enthusiasts, should join us, in fully funding the federal background check, creating a viable data base, include mental decease in the federal check. non of these state by state,

divide an conquer lunacy.

so you can enjoy your toys, and we can enjoy our lives.

Stricter control, might not defend against all lunatics, but it might defend against some.

a small price to pay if it saved even one life.

Edited June 21, 2015 by sirineou

[Ulysses G.]

Yea right , Saddam with all his military might could not defend against the US government ,but you will with your hunting rifle

Google guerrilla warfare. It is not all that far fetched when you have hearts and minds on your side. Google the American war in Vietnam after that.

[sdanielmcev]

Gun enthusiasts can believe or support whatever they want, but the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with enthusiasm. Gun control will only advantage government. Gun purchases are already widely vetted, it is criminals who bypass this, such as the US Gov and Fast and Furious. There are numerous people advocating gun control that are themselves on the lunatic fringe, such as George Soros, who's bloody fingerprints are on more deaths across the world than most humans. The greatest evil is not these terrible acts of citizens upon citizens, though horrific. The true evil is the incapacity of humans to finally preserve the last means available to defend their lives from others and government. To be so dumbed down as to think government is or always will be beneficent is gross ignorance.

Guns do not have lobbies, people have lobbies. It is an utter shame and symptom of the degradation of intellect where the Bill of Rights must be defended.

Yea right , Saddam with all his military might could not defend against the US government ,but you will with your hunting rifle if you want to defend against the government,exercise your civil duty, get engaged in the political process and elect good people to office.
and you want your guns to defend your family, really you are so very concerned about your family's safety after your gun show, you go to your OSHA training, and then you go to all the home safety shows, conduct fire drills, have fire extinguishers charged and readily available etc etc etc.
"Guns don't have lobbies, people do" so there are no different advocate lobbies only people lobbies
When will we ever get over our macho attitude, get over our big bad selfs, call things for what they are , and move forward.
How many people must die so you people can have your toys?
Gun enthusiasts, should join us, in fully funding the federal background check, creating a viable data base, include mental decease in the federal check. non of these state by state,
divide an conquer lunacy.
so you can enjoy your toys, and we can enjoy our lives.
Stricter control, might not defend against all lunatics, but it might defend against some.
a small price to pay if it saved even one life.[firearm

Background checks are already in place. There is a long list of those that cannot legally own a firearm. Anytime the federal gets involved it becomes a fiasco. If liberals would quit hamstringing law enforcement with more laws, police possibly could have more time to stop illegal firearm ownership.

[arjunadawn]

If it is asserted that a regional military power cannot defeat the US therefore the people who are Americans cannot, and therefore they should surrender their guns, this ably demonstrates the nature of the confusion. No one ever posited that the possession of weapons could defeat anything, only that it is every human's right to defend themselves and even a cursory review of history suggests it is governments that people should fear most.

Like most Americans I have no problem with background checks, or even tighter restrictions on who can and cannot own guns.There are numerous problems with always taking the same approach, increasingly tightening the noose around law abiding citizens, while doing nothing to combat inner city violence and crime. If anyone thinks a person who wants to kill someone will avoid doing so because they do not have access to a gun they would be demonstrating a lack of information about mental health and the nature of a sociopath. There are so many competent laws on the books already that are rarely enforced or done so selectively.

The assertion that someone who abides in their Bill of Rights is such a political caricature designed only to parody, it offers no real intellect, just vacancy. But since you personalized it, yes, I follow strict safety precautions at all time. One would not require a fire extinguisher in the home as a home is not a gun range.

OSHA has nothing to do with homes, guns, safety in personal life, etc. At this point the gig is up, this is diatribe.

Edited June 21, 2015 by arjunadawn

[Chicog]

If it is asserted that a regional military power cannot defeat the US therefore the people who are Americans cannot, and therefore they should surrender their guns, this ably demonstrates the nature of the confusion. No one ever posited that the possession of weapons could defeat anything, only that it is every human's right to defend themselves and even a cursory review of history suggests it is governments that people should fear most.

Like most Americans I have no problem with background checks, or even tighter restrictions on who can and cannot own guns.There are numerous problems with always taking the same approach, increasingly tightening the noose around law abiding citizens, while doing nothing to combat inner city violence and crime. If anyone thinks a person who wants to kill someone will avoid doing so because they do not have access to a gun they would be demonstrating a lack of information about mental health and the nature of a sociopath. There are so many competent laws on the books already that are rarely enforced or done so selectively.

The assertion that someone who abides in their Bill of Rights is such a political caricature designed only to parody, it offers no real intellect, just vacancy. But since you personalized it, yes, I follow strict safety precautions at all time. One would not require a fire extinguisher in the home as a home is not a gun range.

OSHA has nothing to do with homes, guns, safety in personal life, etc. At this point the gig is up, this is diatribe.

I think there are things that can be done as far as gun control, law enforcement and social programs that will improve the situation.

But each on their own will be ineffective.

And it's pointless having strict gun laws in one state when people can cross the state line and buy a car boot full of firearms.

It's the reason the NRA can keep claiming tight gun laws don't work.

[arjunadawn]

If it is asserted that a regional military power cannot defeat the US therefore the people who are Americans cannot, and therefore they should surrender their guns, this ably demonstrates the nature of the confusion. No one ever posited that the possession of weapons could defeat anything, only that it is every human's right to defend themselves and even a cursory review of history suggests it is governments that people should fear most.

Like most Americans I have no problem with background checks, or even tighter restrictions on who can and cannot own guns.There are numerous problems with always taking the same approach, increasingly tightening the noose around law abiding citizens, while doing nothing to combat inner city violence and crime. If anyone thinks a person who wants to kill someone will avoid doing so because they do not have access to a gun they would be demonstrating a lack of information about mental health and the nature of a sociopath. There are so many competent laws on the books already that are rarely enforced or done so selectively.

The assertion that someone who abides in their Bill of Rights is such a political caricature designed only to parody, it offers no real intellect, just vacancy. But since you personalized it, yes, I follow strict safety precautions at all time. One would not require a fire extinguisher in the home as a home is not a gun range.

OSHA has nothing to do with homes, guns, safety in personal life, etc. At this point the gig is up, this is diatribe.

I think there are things that can be done as far as gun control, law enforcement and social programs that will improve the situation.

But each on their own will be ineffective.

And it's pointless having strict gun laws in one state when people can cross the state line and buy a car boot full of firearms.

It's the reason the NRA can keep claiming tight gun laws don't work.

I think you are correct, initially. However, gun laws dont work because only law abiding citizens are affected. I dont know exactly what the answer is. I have said elsewhere that a belief in something or a value should not be a suicide pact. Is the gun issue getting to the point where it is a suicide pact to assert the 2nd Amendment is sacrosanct? I dont know. My instinct is no. My instinct is that there is much more to fear than my neighbor with a gun. I have a greater fear of my neighbors without a gun.

Americans fear government more than gun control, a pet of government.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/151490/fear-big-government-near-record-level.aspx

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/04/167721-new-polls-americans-fear-u-s-government-terrorism/

http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/americans-fear-government-more-than-terror/

https://blogs.chapman.edu/wilkinson/2014/10/21/what-americans-fear-the-most/