UN report on Gaza: Both sides may be guilty of war crimes

[Steely Dan]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

[Seastallion]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

Oh, come on! With a headline calling the UN "Jew Haters", how can you seriously consider posting this except as an example of the extreme bias of the Israeli apologists? It is nothing but that, and is certainly not evidence to back any opinion.

But lets look at the ludicrous article for a minute....

"The escalation (of Jew hating) began with the Human Rights Council’s decision to frame the investigation as beginning the day after three Israeli teens were kidnapped and murdered by Hamas members, thereby effectively divorcing subsequent Israeli actions from their context and implying no justification for them. "

I take the point, and it is a valid gripe, however not one to level "Jew hater" at the UN for....would they prefer to take a starting date of the day Israel first poured white phosphorous over Gaza....Exactly when should the UN start?

About the staff that compiled the report..."Most haters could produce such a level of cynicism and prejudice only after years of sustained practice, says communication scholar Joe Goebbels." , give me a break!

And so on....this link is so far to the right, it makes Attilla The Hun look like Mother Therese.

If I was to post a link to an opinion piece that was as biased, but against Israel, I'd probably be censured for being inflammatory.

Mind you, member's who have linked to metapaedia were ok.....Hmmm...perhaps for balance I should? We do want balanced discussion, don't we?

[Steely Dan]

The 1:1 kill ratio of civilians to combatants must be really inconvenient to the Israel demonizers considering a ratio of 3:1 is more the norm with urban warfare, by the UN's own admission.

[Thorgal]

The 1:1 kill ratio of civilians to combatants must be really inconvenient to the Israel demonizers considering a ratio of 3:1 is more the norm with urban warfare, by the UN's own admission.

The 3:1 norm that you've mentioned is not binding or endorsed by any international law.

[Jingthing]

Nope.

[Thorgal]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

Just follow the ICC and don't follow the Hamas rhetoric if OP mentioned that both are accountable for war crimes.

Just summarise the UN resolutions and convictions against Israel in past history and those to come to label Israel with its most moral army and most democratic country of the region lile you want...

Others will think differently...and correctly...!

Edited June 23, 2015 by Thorgal

[Thorgal]

Nope.

Contradictio in terminis...

[chuckd]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

Just follow the ICC and don't follow the Hamas rhetoric if OP mentioned that both are accountable for war crimes.

Just summarise the UN resolutions and convictions against Israel in past history and those to come to label Israel with its most moral army and most democratic country of the region lile you want...

Others will think differently...and correctly...!

"...and most democratic country of the region lile you want..."

Please tell all of us you are not so ignorant as to actually believe there is any other democracy anywhere in the region that holds a candle to the democracy of Israel.

Perhaps I am misreading your comment and, if so, I apologize.

If I am not misreading it, you are seriously misinformed.

[Steely Dan]

The 1:1 kill ratio of civilians to combatants must be really inconvenient to the Israel demonizers considering a ratio of 3:1 is more the norm with urban warfare, by the UN's own admission.

The 3:1 norm that you've mentioned is not binding or endorsed by any international law.

But demonstrates Israel exceeds norms of care for civilians, if they are guilty of war crimes then just about everyone is. Funny then how some people are solely preoccupied with Israel.

[Steely Dan]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

Just follow the ICC and don't follow the Hamas rhetoric if OP mentioned that both are accountable for war crimes.

Just summarise the UN resolutions and convictions against Israel in past history and those to come to label Israel with its most moral army and most democratic country of the region lile you want...

Others will think differently...and correctly...!

I refer you to the Video of UNHRC double standards Ulysses posted. Look at the Countries involved to see the projection, what you haters fail to realize is any sane human being can see this if made aware, refuting the likes of you makes people aware.

[geriatrickid]

Never ever forget the 500 children that were killed. They do deserve a separate mention.

Nice round number you picked there. I don't know why they deserve a special mention as children's lives do not seem to be valued in Gaza. If one goes by the past murders performed by some of the Gaza based heroes, they have specifically targeted Israeli children. Gaza has a high birth rate, so perhaps this is why children are considered as expendable by the locals.

The executive director of the Association of Family Planning and Protection, Muyassar Abu Mailaq, told Al-Monitor that the fertility rate for the people of Gaza has long been up to 5.7 children per woman. He said, “According to my work, family-planning methods in all government clinics and those affiliated with UNRWA are available. But some causes have led to increased fertility, thanks to eastern customs and traditions. Palestinian families like procreation, and they don’t consider five or six to be a large number.” Abu Mailaq said that Gaza's fertility rate would be considered high even for developed countries with a high average income, let alone for a besieged territory suffering a blockade, extreme poverty, high unemployment and low per capita income. Abu Mailaq warned of worsening health, marital and social problems, as well as educational problems caused by the high number of students in classrooms. There is also an absence of clear government population policies in the narrow Gaza Strip.Ahmed Fadel, a taxi driver in his 70s who is married to four women, told Al-Monitor that he has 22 children, the youngest of whom is a 5-month-old girl.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/04/gaza-growing-population-challences.html#ixzz3dvuW03jv

If Hamas and its fellow jihadists truly valued childrens lives they would implement the following;

1. No storage of munitions or war operations to be run from schools, hospitals, or residential areas.

2, No firing of missiles or mortars from residential areas. Multiple deaths were caused when the Gaza initiated missiles and mortars misfired or fell short.

3. No intentional use of children as shields or cover for activity or as "martyrs".

4. Stop the use of children and civilians as supply personnel bringing munitions and supplies to "combatants".

If the above was followed, the non combatant casualty numbers would follow.

Hamas and its allies consider males to be adults as soon as they can grow facial hair. This allows them to be considered for martyrdom. These males are only considered children when the UN needds a body count. In respect to the females, I doubt Hamas and its friends care as they view females as existing solely to serve males and to pump out babies.

[Thorgal]

The 1:1 kill ratio of civilians to combatants must be really inconvenient to the Israel demonizers considering a ratio of 3:1 is more the norm with urban warfare, by the UN's own admission.

The 3:1 norm that you've mentioned is not binding or endorsed by any international law.

But demonstrates Israel exceeds norms of care for civilians, if they are guilty of war crimes then just about everyone is. Funny then how some people are solely preoccupied with Israel.

Can you provide a credible source for the UN's own admission of a 3:1 norm ?

Seems to me that your norm is made for only one state.

Why this exclusivity?

[Thorgal]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

Just follow the ICC and don't follow the Hamas rhetoric if OP mentioned that both are accountable for war crimes.

Just summarise the UN resolutions and convictions against Israel in past history and those to come to label Israel with its most moral army and most democratic country of the region lile you want...

Others will think differently...and correctly...!

I refer you to the Video of UNHRC double standards Ulysses posted. Look at the Countries involved to see the projection, what you haters fail to realize is any sane human being can see this if made aware, refuting the likes of you makes people aware.

In fact, the video of Hilel Neuer was posted 8 years ago...on youtube... Edited June 24, 2015 by Thorgal

[Pakboong]

Most, if not all of my dislike for Israel stems from this rocket issue. I once believed that the hardest thing a person could do would be to hit a major league fastball, I now believe the most difficult thing to do is to hit a populated area in Israel with a rocket. Before this day is done, many fast balls will leave the parks but no rockets will hit anything in Israel. Makes me a bit crazy actually.

Rockets have been fired for centuries and though not guided, they are pointed in a particular direction and simply imagine missing a town. Any town, regardless of size. I have not been to Israel but can only imagine aiming at a town and missing it. To me it would be like firing a rocket from Nongprue at Pattaya and missing. I am talking about missing thousands of times and we now live in the 21st century. How could anyone be taken seriously who really believes this nonsense?

Defending this issue is just silly to me. It is what it is and there is no reason for us to care because tomorrow, more rockets will land in the Israeli badlands and will neither hit anything nor injure anybody.

And, I of course understand this "everybody to the shelters" issue. I would wager that very few actually go to the shelters these days.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Pakboong

[Ulysses G.]

You mean the rockets do not cause enough damage to suit YOU. They have caused deaths, injuries, psychological trauma and property damage. No country on earth would allow the Hamas terrorists to keep firing them.

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 50 people,[5] and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[6] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

[geriatrickid]

Most, if not all of my dislike for Israel stems from this rocket issue. I once believed that the hardest thing a person could do would be to hit a major league fastball, I now believe the most difficult thing to do is to hit a populated area in Israel with a rocket. Before this day is done, many fast balls will leave the parks but no rockets will hit anything in Israel. Makes me a bit crazy actually.

Rockets have been fired for centuries and though not guided, they are pointed in a particular direction and simply imagine missing a town. Any town, regardless of size. I have not been to Israel but can only imagine aiming at a town and missing it. To me it would be like firing a rocket from Nongprue at Pattaya and missing. I am talking about missing thousands of times and we now live in the 21st century. How could anyone be taken seriously who really believes this nonsense?

Defending this issue is just silly to me. It is what it is and there is no reason for us to care because tomorrow, more rockets will land in the Israeli badlands and will neither hit anything nor injure anybody.

And, I of course understand this "everybody to the shelters" issue. I would wager that very few actually go to the shelters these days.

The premise of your argument is that because you consider the rockets harmless because the rockets "will land in the Israeli badlands and will neither hit anything nor injure anybody." Unfortunately, you are wrong. The rockets and mortars fired from Gaza do cause damage. In the beginning, Hamas and its allies relied on the short range Qassam rockets. In many cases, the rockets exploded in Gaza or fell in Gaza providing ample opportunity to blame Israel. However, the rockets and mortars still caused damage in Israel. The injury is physical and/or psychological. Unlike Gaza residents who do not have to worry about rocket and mortar attacks on a daily basis, Israelis do.

More importantly, the groups firing the rockets and mortars now have longer range weapons. They also have Iranian sourced drones which can strike anywhere in Israel. To date they have been unsuccessful, but all it will take is one lucky hit. Hamas brags about its capabilities. A few short years ago, the missiles were small. Now they are the Iranian Fadjir or the Syrian M-302. Big big difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMqOXO0lwk Lovely Hamas PR piece on its missile capabilities which contrary to your statement, declares their accuracy and "power".

Hamas and its allies bombarded Israel with missiles and mortars. Israel only responded to defend itself from a collective of violent extremists. Once the lovely militants of Pattani and Yala ever get their hands on some more powerful ordinance and use it in Thailand, perhaps you will be able to experience the explosives that you consider "harmless".

Edited June 24, 2015 by geriatrickid

[Pakboong]

You mean the rockets do not cause enough damage to suit YOU. They have caused deaths, injuries, psychological trauma and property damage. No country on earth would allow the Hamas terrorists to keep firing them.

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 50 people,[5] and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[6] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

You simply point out that you do not know any more about this issue than I do. I get it you are pro-Israel and I am anti-Israel and that is pretty much as far as it goes. You think it is perfectly reasonable to aim at towns and miss and I think that is a ridiculous notion.

Last night:

Gazan terrorists fired a single rocket at southern Israel earlier on Tuesday night, setting off air raid sirens in the regions of Yad Mordechai, Karmiya, Zikim, and Nativ Ha'asara. The IDF said the rocket fell in an open area in the Yad Mordechai region. No injuries or damage were reported. No terrorist group took immediate responsibility for Tuesday's attack. IDF sources said they detected one rocket launch from Gaza and local residents reported hearing a blast.

The IDF press release is a template. It always says the same thing.

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/IAF-strikes-Gaza-rocket-launcher-after-projectile-fire-on-southern-Israel-406944

[Ulysses G.]

You mean the rockets do not cause enough damage to suit YOU. They have caused deaths, injuries, psychological trauma and property damage. No country on earth would allow the Hamas terrorists to keep firing them.

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of July 2014 the attacks have killed 50 people,[5] and injured more than 1900 people, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[6] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel

You simply point out that you do not know any more about this issue than I do.

Nonsense. I know that you are trying to pretend that all the rockets miss and that is not the case. They have caused deaths, injuries, psychological trauma and property damage and when the terrorists miss, it is not on purpose. No country on earth would allow the Hamas terrorists to keep firing thousands of rockets at civilians.

Edited June 24, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Pakboong]

Most, if not all of my dislike for Israel stems from this rocket issue. I once believed that the hardest thing a person could do would be to hit a major league fastball, I now believe the most difficult thing to do is to hit a populated area in Israel with a rocket. Before this day is done, many fast balls will leave the parks but no rockets will hit anything in Israel. Makes me a bit crazy actually.

Rockets have been fired for centuries and though not guided, they are pointed in a particular direction and simply imagine missing a town. Any town, regardless of size. I have not been to Israel but can only imagine aiming at a town and missing it. To me it would be like firing a rocket from Nongprue at Pattaya and missing. I am talking about missing thousands of times and we now live in the 21st century. How could anyone be taken seriously who really believes this nonsense?

Defending this issue is just silly to me. It is what it is and there is no reason for us to care because tomorrow, more rockets will land in the Israeli badlands and will neither hit anything nor injure anybody.

And, I of course understand this "everybody to the shelters" issue. I would wager that very few actually go to the shelters these days.

The premise of your argument is that because you consider the rockets harmless because the rockets "will land in the Israeli badlands and will neither hit anything nor injure anybody." Unfortunately, you are wrong. The rockets and mortars fired from Gaza do cause damage. In the beginning, Hamas and its allies relied on the short range Qassam rockets. In many cases, the rockets exploded in Gaza or fell in Gaza providing ample opportunity to blame Israel. However, the rockets and mortars still caused damage in Israel. The injury is physical and/or psychological. Unlike Gaza residents who do not have to worry about rocket and mortar attacks on a daily basis, Israelis do.

More importantly, the groups firing the rockets and mortars now have longer range weapons. They also have Iranian sourced drones which can strike anywhere in Israel. To date they have been unsuccessful, but all it will take is one lucky hit. Hamas brags about its capabilities. A few short years ago, the missiles were small. Now they are the Iranian Fadjir or the Syrian M-302. Big big difference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFMqOXO0lwk Lovely Hamas PR piece on its missile capabilities which contrary to your statement, declares their accuracy and "power".

hamas-rockets-2014.jpg

Hamas and its allies bombarded Israel with missiles and mortars. Israel only responded to defend itself from a collective of violent extremists. Once the lovely militants of Pattani and Yala ever get their hands on some more powerful ordinance and use it in Thailand, perhaps you will be able to experience the explosives that you consider "harmless".

Iran has 8 guided missiles and will soon have the Russian S300. Apparently, they choose not to give these guided versions to the Palestinians. I get all you have pointed out and I know you are one of the better informed posters on this forum but it still smells to me and unless somebody offers a version that makes sense, I will continue to doubt.

Why would the Iranians not test their guided missiles in Gaza. Any army would love to test their weapons under combat conditions. They have two surface to air versions which are shoulder fired. Easy to transport yet nobody in Gaza has ever fired one at the Israeli jets or rotary wing attackers. Hundreds of Palestinians pass through the tunnels every day.

It is my understanding that hundreds if not thousands enter Israel on a daily basis to work without permits. It would be so easy for those individuals to do some damage and a few years ago, such was common. It would be easy to hit populated areas from the West Bank but no rockets are fired from the West Bank. It simply smells to anybody not blindly pro-Israel. To me, this nonsense is based upon maintaining a victim status and is not real.

It seems unbelievable that the script is: fire rocket from Gaza, rocket hits nothing and the Israelis respond with an air-strike on Gaza. This has to be nonsense and I know all the Israeli template arguments.

Catapults fired at prepared defenses a thousand years ago, did more damage. Here we are 1000 years later and all the Palestinians can hit is the desert.

[Pakboong]

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIGazaConflict/Pages/ReportCoIGaza.aspx#report

The UN report should anyone be interested.

[Steely Dan]

The bias of the UNHRC makes it difficult if not impossible for other groups claiming impartiality to match. Their extensive and unqualified use of Hamas casualty figures indeed sets the bar high so there is little left for some of our esteemed members to do except parrot the same as much as band width allows.

http://www.preoccupiedterritory.com/experts-worry-un-setting-impossible-standard-for-other-jew-haters/

Just follow the ICC and don't follow the Hamas rhetoric if OP mentioned that both are accountable for war crimes.

Just summarise the UN resolutions and convictions against Israel in past history and those to come to label Israel with its most moral army and most democratic country of the region lile you want...

Others will think differently...and correctly...!

I refer you to the Video of UNHRC double standards Ulysses posted. Look at the Countries involved to see the projection, what you haters fail to realize is any sane human being can see this if made aware, refuting the likes of you makes people aware.

In fact, the video of Hilel Neuer was posted 8 years ago...on youtube...

And the lies of the UNHRC have got worse in that time. Israel continues to exceed the standard of care exercised by any other army, just as it did eight years ago.

[Steely Dan]

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIGazaConflict/Pages/ReportCoIGaza.aspx#report

The UN report should anyone be interested.

Thanks, but no thanks. A report from an investigation led initially by someone in the employ of the PLO, who was forced to resign, though the 'fact finding' process was concluded by then. Hopefully this will be the final straw leading to withdrawal from the UNHRC and defunding of the UN.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/washington-calls-on-un-to-ignore-biased-gaza-war-report/