Daffy D Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 As the title says. Example:- The Thai word is กราบ or กราบไหว้ which Google translates into - worship - pay respect - honour That is what you are doing but what would be the English name for the act/position of this? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onionluke Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 to lie with the face down and arms stretched out, especially as a sign of respect or worship prostrate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seligne2 Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 genuflect (third-person singular simple present genuflects, present participle genuflecting, simple past and past participle genuflected) (intransitive) To bend the knee, as in servitude or worship (intransitive) To behave in a servile manner; to grovel. This is not it exactly, but not too far off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffy D Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Mmm! Don't think those really cover it. Definitely not "prostrate" "genuflect" as far as I recall is quickie one knee bend and no wai. so doesn't qualify Some of the high ranking individuals seem to be "groveling" to higher ranking individuals at those ceremonies they show on TV but don't think this is the word I'm looking for This act of respect is recognized all over the world, there must be a name for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhunBENQ Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 "genuflect" as far as I recall is quickie one knee bend and no wai. so doesn't qualify That seems a bit oversimplified. Its not a "quickie"! Do you mix that up with a "curtsy"? And I doubt there is a single word translation for this. "genuflection" is as close as I can find. Its "genuflect" and "salute"/"pay respect"/"pay homage". Looking forward to that single word that says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phetphet Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Kowtowing Kowtow, which is borrowed from kau tau in Cantonese (koutou in Mandarin Chinese), is the act of deep respect shown by prostration, that is, kneeling and bowing so low as to have one's head touching the ground. An alternative Chinese term is ketou, however the meaning is somewhat altered: kou has the general meaning of knock, whereas ke has the general meaning of "touch upon (a surface)", toumeaning head. In East Asian culture, the kowtow is the highest sign of reverence. It was widely used to show reverence for one's elders, superiors, and especially the Emperor, as well as for religious and cultural objects of worship. In modern times, usage of the kowtow has become reduced. Edited June 23, 2015 by phetphet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffy D Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Not sure about "Kowtowing" - has a hint of, for want of a better explanation, master - servant about it. Don't think Kowtowing would be the appropriate word when used in the temple. KhunBENQ yes you are right about the "curtsy"? - but I think still not the word that covers this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Why you say definitely not "prostrate"?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostration I've always seen the word "prostrate" used to mean this wai position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire69water Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Pay obeisance, Thai-style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Don't think Kowtowing would be the appropriate word when used in the temple. I believe that kowtowing would indeed be the best word to describe the acts seen in the photos above as neither instance shows any religious connections. King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, actually banned the practice by Royal decree back in 1873 as being somewhat primitive and oppressive. It was later reintroduced some 70 years later by the military dictator Sarit Thanarat in the 1950s. Some people attempt to make the action more palatable by using the religious term prostration, and that might indeed be the better term when observed within a temple setting in front of monks. On the other hand, others are as appalled by the actions as was King Chulalongkorn. One currently exiled journalist has recently been harping on the act by referring to Thailand as LOS, the Land of Slaves. I would be interested to see any other modern day examples of this act being performed on a regular basis by ordinary citizens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phetphet Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Not sure about "Kowtowing" - has a hint of, for want of a better explanation, master - servant about it. Don't think Kowtowing would be the appropriate word when used in the temple. KhunBENQ yes you are right about the "curtsy"? - but I think still not the word that covers this. Daffy, I am pretty sure that kowtow is the word you are looking for. Read the last paragraph of my last post. I also think it is the term used for those prostrating themselves in front of HM the Thai King. It is a western term for what you are looking for. You might want to google "kowtow + Thesaurus" to find similar words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire69water Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Kowtow is too Chinesey. There is an implication of nodding one's head vigorously. Whereas, the Thai style is a single bow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Kowtow is too Chinesey. There is an implication of nodding one's head vigorously. Whereas, the Thai style is a single bow. Kowtow has a historical Chinese root (kau tau on Wikipedia) and I am sure there once was a specific method to perform the act within a Chinese court context. But in English the word is used generically with a meaning more towards 'groveling" before another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffy D Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 "kowtow" does seem to be the nearest at the moment but I still think it's too subservient. Isn't there a phrase about kowtowing to another's will or wishes? don't think this applies when doing it to show respect to another or devotion in the religious sense. With phrases like "he knelt before the king" or "she curtseyed when presenting the bouquet" You know what happened but "she kowtowed to her husband as she gave him the anniversary gift" doesn't sound right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pla shado Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Perhaps, "deference" or "the act of deference"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leosmith Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 groveling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony5 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Hypocrisy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeichen Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 kowtow also has negative implications. This is an honorification. Prostrate would be more accurate if grovelling or asking for forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phetphet Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 Proskynesis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 This is an honorification No, it is an act of subservience once demanded of the populace back when most Thais were titular slaves. It was abolished around the same time that slavery was abolished in Thailand. It was re-instituted by one of the most deplorable military dictators in modern Thai history. There is no honor in groveling before another human being. The teaching of this act is nothing less than the conditioning of the mind to accept subservience and is taught at a very young age indeed. You can see young students being asked to perform the same demeaning actions in front of their poorly trained teachers and corrupt local officials. The Thais may be brainwashed into thinking that this demeaning behavior is somehow part of modern Thai culture and is a show of respect and honor, but I don't fall for that crap and neither should anyone else here. Certainly King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, saw the light nearly 150 years ago when he banned the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orac Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 My 6 year old daughter did this to me for the first time a few days ago - she had been told by her teacher to do this every morning to me and her mother. The look of pride in her eyes while doing it touched me deeply and the disappointment she showed when I explained that she didn't have to do it really upset me. I told her that I would much prefer a hug and a kiss on the cheek and she accepted that though she could do it for her mother as she would appreciate it. It does bother me that she is expected to do this to her teachers but it is so ingrained in the 'culture' here that the best I think I can do is keep reinforcing why I don't like it and let her work it out for herself over time rather than push her to 'rebel' and cause problems for her fitting in at school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leosmith Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 The Thais may be brainwashed into thinking that this demeaning behavior is somehow part of modern Thai culture and is a show of respect and honor, but I don't fall for that crap and neither should anyone else here. Certainly King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, saw the light nearly 150 years ago when he banned the practice. It's definitely part of modern Thai culture. Whining about it doesn't change anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seligne2 Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 The Thais may be brainwashed into thinking that this demeaning behavior is somehow part of modern Thai culture and is a show of respect and honor, but I don't fall for that crap and neither should anyone else here. Certainly King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, saw the light nearly 150 years ago when he banned the practice. It's definitely part of modern Thai culture. Whining about it doesn't change anything. How the hell do you think change happens? Enough people "whine" et voila, changes are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 The Thais may be brainwashed into thinking that this demeaning behavior is somehow part of modern Thai culture and is a show of respect and honor, but I don't fall for that crap and neither should anyone else here. Certainly King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, saw the light nearly 150 years ago when he banned the practice.It's definitely part of modern Thai culture. Whining about it doesn't change anything. I have reread my post several times and can not fathom how you can find anything "whiney" about my post. You may disagree with my sentiments. Maybe you care not a whit about the recent history around this act. Or perhaps you have fallen for this crap and thus find my post personally insulting. But whiney? Really?!? I would have thought that criticism backed up with historical fact might make a small contribution to change more effectively than say a government decree by a really despicable military despot which is exactly how this act was reintroduced into Thai culture back in the 1950s. But your mileage may vary. Chaiyo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leosmith Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 The Thais may be brainwashed into thinking that this demeaning behavior is somehow part of modern Thai culture and is a show of respect and honor, but I don't fall for that crap and neither should anyone else here. Certainly King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, saw the light nearly 150 years ago when he banned the practice. It's definitely part of modern Thai culture. Whining about it doesn't change anything. How the hell do you think change happens? Enough people "whine" et voila, changes are made. Thais love this tradition. It's all over TV. I like to watch it too. It's one of those cultural differences that we should cherish. It doesn't hurt us and a bunch of ฝรั่ง whining about it will change rien. I have reread my post several times and can not fathom how you can find anything "whiney" about my post. It's one of the whiniest posts I've ever read, so I'm surprised. It's like "Wah! Your culture is different from mine so you need to change it right now. Wah!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 The Thais may be brainwashed into thinking that this demeaning behavior is somehow part of modern Thai culture and is a show of respect and honor, but I don't fall for that crap and neither should anyone else here. Certainly King Chulalongkorn, Rama V, saw the light nearly 150 years ago when he banned the practice. It's definitely part of modern Thai culture. Whining about it doesn't change anything. How the hell do you think change happens? Enough people "whine" et voila, changes are made. Thais love this tradition. It's all over TV. I like to watch it too. It's one of those cultural differences that we should cherish. It doesn't hurt us and a bunch of whining about it will change rien. I have reread my post several times and can not fathom how you can find anything "whiney" about my post. It's one of the whiniest posts I've ever read, so I'm surprised. It's like "Wah! Your culture is different from mine so you need to change it right now. Wah!" Ah, the neo-Shaib culture enjoying the the local ruling elite lording it over the same locals that they too enjoy lording it over. Perhaps your just jealous that nobody grovels in front of you, but oh yes, you can imagine it now can't you. I suppose if you lived in Somalia you would be all in favor of some of their local cultural traditions such as clitorectomies. I'll rather just keep on doing what to you is whining then as long as the Thai ruling elite continues to promote the practices marking the era of Thai slavery in the hopes that the people will continue to accept their subservient status as part of some mythical Thai culture, practices seemingly so adored by both ruling elite, tourist, and neo-sahib alike as being both quaint and in maintaining the "รักษาความสงบแห่งชาติ". Chaiyo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffy D Posted June 28, 2015 Author Share Posted June 28, 2015 Mmm! lots of interesting thoughts on the subject but still don't know what the act is called. There are many reasons for going down in the kneeling wai position, pay homage, act of reference, to grovel, a show of love, but what is the position called? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phuketsub Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I have always used the word 'prostrate' and don't see anything wrong with it. It can also be used to express extreme gratitude. I got this once after pulling a kid unconscious from the bottom of a swimming pool in Haad Yai. Other than that the only time I have got one is from my daughter on Father's Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyG Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I have always used the word 'prostrate' and don't see anything wrong with it. To prostrate oneself means to lie stretched out on the ground with one's face downward. That's what's wrong with it in this context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phuketsub Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I have always used the word 'prostrate' and don't see anything wrong with it. To prostrate oneself means to lie stretched out on the ground with one's face downward. That's what's wrong with it in this context. That's one definition and a rather strict one at that. In the Wikipedia page previously mentioned, there are lots of descriptions of 'prostrations' that don't involve being fully stretched out. Anyway, I am glad I never have to engage this particular posture, whatever the correct name for it is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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